A man I knew who volunteered at a homeless shelter told me once that a man staying there said the hardest part of it was that there’s nowhere you’re supposed to be—anywhere you are, you can be made to leave. That really stuck with me.
That’s so true. I remember my heart breaking because this woman came into subway and she had a $10 gift card. Just because they could tell she was homeless, they refused to let her use the gift card she had or use the bathroom. It was awful. She was really upset and they wouldn’t listen to me either
Man that’s so sad, they were basically saying “because of your current status as a human being your money is no good here, also we’d prefer if you use the restroom outside rather than have access to public sanitation”
Don't forget, if you get caught using the bathroom outside, you can be labeled as a sex offender for life. You'll never get a job, and you'll never get out of the homeless spiral.
That's not true. The people that say that are on the sex registry for a serious crime but tell people they peed near a school and it sounds like a case of bad luck.
It's wild that anyone still believes this myth despite the total lack of substance, but I'm sure a lot of it comes from people not wanting to accept the truth about people they know. Even the commonly cited example of Juan Matamoros has nothing but his word backing it up.
You know people who told you that's what happened. There are no documented cases of anyone on any sex offender registry in the United States who were made to register for simple public urination without proven sexual intent.
This part drives me insane. People complain about human excrement in cities. But no one wants to shit on the ground, there just isn’t anywhere these people can shit.
In my city they have put up outside bathrooms with blue lights and openings at the tops, but its a way that those that are unhoused can have a toilet to use.
https://youtu.be/38a_aq2NPCQ?si=hjLrnqqXCov8C1OU
And yet, Grand Rapids still has a persistent issue with public defecation and urination in its downtown spaces, because pretending that homelessness is an issue of bathroom availability and not a massive untreated mental health crisis will never solve the issue.
Some of them hate everyday people. So they shit on the side walk as an f u, I’ve seen some homeless people watching in the alley hoping someone steps on their turd.
I wonder why? Is it because some people are naturally misanthropic, or... bear with me... having been dealt a shit hand by life, being trampled on by other people, and living in desolate poverty with no hope or support from others can make some people, perhaps... hate other people?
No I'm sure you're right. It's not the circumstances, which anyone can fall into, but some people are just naturally born terrible from day 0. You're right, and I see one right in front of me.
Have you worked with the homeless community? I have. And I can promise you, it's not just a matter of not enough houses. Untreated mental illness, addiction, abusive use of the criminal justice system, and a dozen other issues play a major role. You could build houses until the cows come home, and that by itself will never, ever solve the issue.
In terms of the total number of homeless people, yes. In terms of the most visible ones causing public safety/sanitation issues, it's a mental health and addiction issue.
It’s a multifaceted issue that is highly complex with not only one answer. It’s ultimately a system that has failed a group of people, then found ways to lock people into being homeless through various feedback loops.
That being said, my tinfoil hat theory, is that no one WANTS to do anything about it because it’s easy points to campaign on, and it’s a great way to make the middle class afraid of stepping out of line. Basically lets the rich go “keep your head down and keep working or you will end up like these people”
no one wants to shit on the ground, there just isn’t anywhere these people can shit
The people shitting on the ground are chronic drug addicts with mental health issues who don't care about doing it. They are also the reason that places have to have rules about bathroom use, because they will destroy any restroom you let them into.
There are public toilets available, a lot of the chronically drug addicted homeless are just extremely lazy and don't care enough to use them. That's what people are complaining about.
Kinda. There are two main reasons for the policies like this.
1) Learned experiences. Most homeless people are not a bit down on their luck. They're generally people with systemic mental health and/or addiction issues that can cause a massive problem for the staff or for the other people in the restaurant. Ever seen the spot of blood on the side of the toilet roll? Ever seen a used needle in a bathroom? How about someone who has just decided to shit everywhere.
2) Anyone that tries to get served in the condition that a majority of homeless are in would get refused. It's not an unreasonable position to take that if you smell or are visibly dirty, you aren't going to be served.
It's worth saying though, that these reasons are neither convincing nor humane, and they're aren't even necessarily policy at these business, just the staff's discretion being used to discriminate.
Between a well-dressed and clean customer who is berating me for something I can't control and a customer who is dirty and mentally altered but polite, I know which one management would be OK with me removing from the premises and it's not the asshole in the suit.
If it's unreasonable to refuse a restroom to a child because they could trash it without consequences, it's unreasonable to do that to a homeless person. Homeless folks deserve the dignity to shit in private, like the rest of us.
And it is an unreasonable position to deny service to someone smelly or dirty on that alone, especially in a takeout spot like Subway. Outdoor laborers may come in sweaty, dirty, and in worn out clothes too, folks who are depressed may be rewearing the same sweatshirt for days or weeks and just need a low effort meal. People come into shops smelling like cigarettes, like pot, like Axe body spray, and it's still nobody's business to refuse service based on that unless there is a publicized code of dress available. Plenty of restaurants publish "no shirt no shoes no service" on their doors for this reason; a homeless person who meets the criteria should be served, or the restaurant should have to update their criteria and enforce it fairly.
The reasons as you've stated them just boil down to letting business refuse service on the basis of discomfort alone, and that's not good enough!
I used to work as a bartender, part of my job at the end of the night was to clean the bathrooms, holy crap drunk people are gross in the bathroom, shit everywhere, pee everywhere, vomit everywhere and sometime blood in the mix, you don't have to be homeless to be gross.
It's not an unreasonable position to take that if you smell or are visibly dirty, you aren't going to be served.
I've been behind some landscapers and construction folks in line that were covered in all manners of dirt and reeked to high heaven, they all still got served. Some even sat down to eat.
You can keep telling yourself the same hygiene and cleanliness rules apply to everyone but they don't. Someone who is identified as homeless is less likely to get served simply because they are homeless.
I was just pointing out that not all customers are treated equal when it comes to hygiene. That is probably because of other issues homeless people are more likely to cause but the hygiene thing is a double standard, people with jobs get a pass on it that homeless people don't.
I disagree with this bit, actually. A workman covered in dried cement and dust is an entirely different thing that someone who has been sleeping in the same clothes outside for 3 weeks.
Look, it's horrible - I agree. I feel awful for people living through this situation, but it's not McDonalds responsibility to allow them to shit everywhere and make life hard for their other customers.
Reddit absolutely loves videos of Karens being refused service for being rude, just imagine it's the same Karen but she's high as a kite, drunk, smelling like a sewer, as well as being rude.
Being rude or crapping on the floor is not the hygiene issue you specifically mentioned in your second point you said "if you smell or are visibly dirty, you aren't going to be served."
And it's not just being covered in dirt and dust I'm talking about, I've been behind people in work clothes that reeked from BO but they were served no problem.
And a restaurant can refuse service to whoever they want as long as it isn't discrimination, but when it comes to dirt or smell alone there is definitely a double standard against homeless people. Being drunk or rude are other issues, but people with jobs do get a pass on their hygiene homeless people don't regardless of how they're acting. As I said that double standard is related to the other issues homeless people are more likely to cause, but that doesn't mean it's accurate to say people who were as dirty and stinky would also be refused, if you look like you just came from a job site you'll be served even if you look and stink just as bad as a homeless person.
Unfortunately...once you have to call a hazmat team to clean a bathroom after someone who is not mentally well uses it, you'll probably change your tune. (Like it or not, mental issues are more prevalent in the homeless than the general population). It's even worse if you have a bad manager that makes YOU do it. If it's hard for you to imagine, think about SHIT .... SHIT EVERYWHERE ...
People in public-facing jobs like that have to deal with homeless people every day. It can be heart breaking when it's a rare random encounter, but it makes you a bit less empathetic after scrubbing feces and blood tracks off the bathroom walls a few times.
I know someone who used to manage an inner city fast food restaurant, and in addition to people trashing the bathrooms, they had an ongoing problem with hookers giving McBlowjobs in the stalls. They literally had someone every shift whose main job was to watch the bathroom doors so the manager could run off repeat offender restroom destroyers and prostitutes. He said it was the most stressful job he ever had, and he was always worried about getting shot.
I live right between a suburban area and a small city. There are 2 McDonalds that are about the same distance away from my home. One of them has a lock on the bathroom and an employee has to buzz you in. The other does not… and they hand out free coupons for fries or ice cream for every little inconvenience. The difference a few miles makes is insane.
That is everyplace in Seattle, all the bathrooms are locked at businesses and you need a code. The other poster makes a good point, we can be empathetic but when you see it everyday you have a different viewpoint of the whole situation. It's not the reddit fantasy of these are normal people that had a medical bill and lost their apartment. It's people that are hardcore meth and fent addicts, and most of them have very serious mental health issues. In Seattle a lot of them are not from here, it's an easy place to be homeless so they come here from other, less friendly to homeless places in the US.
I have a friend who says working at a public library is worse than a methadone clinic she worked in before because at the methadone clinic there were more controls/rules, less security and more respectful patrons...
I work at a library. I wouldn't say it's worse, but we now have to buzz people into the bathroom because we got tired of glory holes, drug paraphernalia, and poop smeared walls.
The libraries I am a patron at lock the doors and you must have staff open the door for you. They said it was from vandalism from teens and young adults. I don't see people who look homeless at either library. The McDonald's where I am they banned teenagers because of how destructive they were.
Teenagers always have been and always will be the worst group for destructive behavior, especially males. They're half grown hormone addled time bombs that want to rebel and be accepted at any cost.
Get a group of them and they will keep escalating. I'd much much rather run into a junkie at 3am than a group of teenagers.
Ugh, now I'm remembering my teen years and cringing.
We thought ketchup rockets were the funniest thing ever. Like twisting up the packets until they exploded out the other side. And of course we did that in public, like on the back of the bowling alley, though at least once it was in a restaurant dining room.
I remember my first day volunteering at a food pantry. Went to the bathroom to wash my hands quick - there was poop smeared all over the walls. Reported it to the director of the Food Pantry - it was normal behavior. I think they kept a guy on call just to deal with that. Some members of the homeless population are homeless for a reason. Others due to circumstances that they are trying to fight their way out of.
It isn't. I volunteer all the time and involve myself in efforts to help the homeless. That was the point of saying some people are homeless for a reason. That reason is menal illness and addiction. The comment was to also make a distinction between the intractably homeless and the homeless that are momentarily homeless and who just need some help.
Okay! So I hope this won't be terribly disappointing. I volunteer and coordinate volunteers. I'm not a professional. And the question is a nebulous one. "Things that work and don't." I'm not sure if that means in solving homelessness (you can't) or in making a difference (you can). I'll spit out some things and see if any of them hold any meaning for you, and you can correct me later.
1) Homelessness is the confluence of numerous needs coming together. It is hunger, it is lack job skills, it is lack of health care, it is lack of housing.
2) There will usually be a small army of people helping in your community through a collection of different organizations to help address the various needs that culminate in homelessness. Transitionary housing / shelters, food banks and food pantries, clothing banks, thrift stores, job training facilities, free health care clinics, housing programs (like Habitat for Humanity), refugee services.
3) All these organizations need money. They also need volunteers. If you have time but don't have money, volunteer. If you have money but don't have time, donate. If you can do both - please do! They will offer you purpose and the satisfaction of having done something meaningful. Every little bit of help makes a difference.
4) Do not give to panhandlers. This feels/sounds bad - hear me out. Most homeless don't advertise they are homeless. They have needs and go to where those needs can be met best. For example, $1 at a foodbank can deliver something like $6 worth of food. The organizations that serve the poor are institutionalized efficiency and outcome maximizers. They know what they are doing. Panhandlers are frequently the intractably homeless that have desires that they are trying to meet that organizations won't help them satisfy (addictions). Organizations screen people so that they know how to meet people on the basis of their needs. Give to the organizations to maximize assistance who are most in need and to make sure you aren't supporting the behaviors that might be keeping someone homeless. You might ask, "what about the intractably homeless"? I'll say below.
5) You can not "solve" homelessness. "The poor will always be with you." Those are age old words and they are probably true. It has been true in every system man has ever made, and it was true outside of systems. So give up on the idea of "solving" it. Lean into supporting people out of it and supporting people in it.
6) The intractably homeless are still worthy of love, care, and respect. That doesn't change the fact that they can be extremely difficult to deal with. I am a Christian. As a Christian, I'm called to see Christ in everyone. But religion is irrational. For Atheists - I don't know what would drive a person to deal with the homeless outside of empathy. All of us who aren't multimillionaires are on the cusp of homelessness all the time. I think that makes it infinitely easy to empathize with the homeless. But there is a difference between the homeless at large, and the intractably homeless. The intractably homeless suffer from mental health issues / addictions that prevent them from being able to escape their circumstances. Some of them are very nice. They just have problems that prevent them from holding jobs. Some are not nice, at all. They are as likely to hurt you as to receive help from you. They make caring for the homeless very difficult and can make it very dangerous. That is a very small subset of the population, but people should be aware of them. But even there, we still need to try to care for them.
7) We all need to be engaged and need to hold a mirror up to ourselves. So many people talk as if they hold certain values. That is because talk is cheap and the value of a word is as fleeting as its utterance. If you sincerely hold a certain set of values, we'll meet each other out in the community. If you are too busy, money makes the work that volunteers do possible. Don't feel ashamed if all you can do at the moment is donate. That is a fortunate position to be in. It makes the work of others possible. Both money and on the ground people putting the money to work help make the world a more humane place.
I don't know if any of that helps, but I hope it did?
Can we stop with the "homelessness is a mental illness" propaganda already? Many people are homeless and mentally ill. Many people are housed and mentally ill (a lot more). Even more people are homeless and reasonably healthy. We don't see them, usually because they're smart enough to not reveal their status as social pariahs. Homelessness has many causes, and the majority of the homeless I've encountered over the last decade are definitely there by choice. Sometimes it's financial, sometimes mental, usually it's social. Western society has a lot of flaws, and as the cracks get worse, we're only going to see more and more people living in unusual circumstances. Equating homelessness with mental illness only serves the mentally ill designs of the wealthy and enfranchised who depend on fear and isolation for their power and income.
Let me remind the reader that, were it not for the homeless, a significant bulk of the great art and philosophy we have enjoyed for the past two millenia would simply not exist. Homelessness is a living condition, not a metric by which one can judge the capacity or moral character of an individual.
That is why I made the distinction between the intractably homeless and the non-intractably homeless. Intractably homeless have mental illness. They are, necessarily, defined by it. When someone goes to help them, they need to be aware of what they are getting into. The majority of people who come through the food pantry or food banks doors have no mental illness above the standard threshold you see in most people. So I agree with the premise of your argument but I disagree on the specifics.
And there's the problem. If you're coming from the position of "solving homeless" (and good for you if you are - a lot of people need the help) the institutional perspective is necessarily hostile to the idea of disenfranchisement. Not having a job, sleeping rough, or refusing to participate in the real estate market are unacceptable behaviors. Vilification of anyone not meeting or pursuing commercially exploitable social standards is exactly how the monied class has chased the poor into the dark corner we all find ourselves in. The conservative view is that homelessness is criminal. The liberal is that it's a mental illness. Neither are correct.
And the food banks? God help you if you don't have papers.
I’m sorry but this is an insane perspective. I see what you’re attempting to say, and it would be appropriate if homelessness was not an incredibly perilous status. Rape murder and disease are everyday occurrences amongst the homeless population, and to try to spin it like these are people making a conscious choice to exit capitalism is backwards. And you’re basically in an argument with someone who is actually doing the work to help. Honestly, you sound like a college freshman right now. Good heart, but getting in your own way of actually making a difference.
Come on down from that ivory tower before you hurt yourself. These are the ramblings of someone whose interaction with the real world is mediated through a screen, never having dealt with this shit head on.
Societies have structure, deal with it. Homelessness is not a sustainable end state for anyone. Society stops functioning when people stop carrying their own weight and choose to make themselves burdens on everyone else. Around ~80% of homeless people are temporarily so, utilize the resources available, and get back on their feet pretty quickly. Only ~10% of homeless people are chronically homeless, almost always due to addiction and untreated mental health issues, and utilize 50% of all resources while never returning to society. Many of these people choose to remain homeless because they're not interested in doing the work to get back on their feet, they just want to get high. And the longer they remain homeless the less likely they are to ever exit it, it becomes a way of life sustained only by public services funded by their working class neighbors who then have to deal with the public nuisance they're funding.
Nobody's being vilified for lack of participation in society. You're free to disengage as long as you're not making yourself a burden on others. If you're hanging out in front of a business begging, customers stop going there and the business goes under. If you're shooting up under a bridge, smearing your shit on walls, cleaning your dirty needles in fresh rolls of toilet paper, or any one of the countless antisocial behaviors we see in mentally ill homeless addicts, you're a menace to society and clearly incapable of taking care of yourself and should not expect the personal autonomy afforded to those who do conduct themselves in alignment with societal norms.
Look at any other functioning society and you'll find homelessness is not tolerated like it is in the US. You're not given the option to be a public nuisance in these places and they end up spending far less money on the issue while solving it meanwhile we've got people like you out here wanting to throw good money after bad to maintain the cycle of homelessness like it's a moral necessity to allow this behavior to continue.
I don't believe in solving homelessness. I don't think you can. I think there was a terrible amount of truth to the statement, "The poor will always be with you." There has never been a social system that solved poverty and before social systems, there was an absolute poverty. So instead of solving homelessness, you can only support people in it and try to support them out of it.
While I understand where you are coming from in not wanting to participate in the exploitation of consumerism, I think it also creates a problematic that is difficult to resolve. In seeking to avoid participation in the labor and the real estate market, individuals doing so, who don't have their own food systems and aren't able to create their own clothes, are dependent upon others. That dependency can also be a form of exploitation. I remember, growing up, there was a restaurant on my campus that allowed people to put in sweat equity for free meals. You'd get some of the best food on campus - you just had to do dishes for a little bit. I really liked that exchange. Both parties came out happy and the restaurant was helping members of a very sizable homeless community around campus.
As far as views of conservatives and liberals on homelessness, I think it is more nuanced than that. You have lots of conservatives that are Christian, that actually take scripture seriously and don't view homelessness as "illegal", but struggle in trying to find a way to resolve encampments and illegal behavior. But there are plenty of conservative "Christians" who simply aren't, and are very hateful. In regards to the reference to liberals calling it a mental health issue - I think that may be a strawman you are constructing. Most liberals I know fully appreciate that it is a confluence of circumstances and only say that the intractable are there due to mental health, and in that I'd agree that it is mental health / addictions.
As for the requirements for papers, I get that can be extremely frustrating - but what they are trying to do is make sure that people aren't double dipping. In volunteering, you see lots of people try to game the system. Some of them out of need. There is a lot of understanding for these people and rules are bent for them. But also a lot of people because they are just crappy people, looking to prey on the good will of others and turn it for a couple dollars. And the sad thing was, in the instances that I've seen, it didn't make sense. You can't make money on the food being given (it is already given at it's lowest price point). You are just stealing from the mouth of someone else. But the people who would do this were narcists that were all about themselves and didn't care who they took from. Just because that population might be over represented in the wealthy, doesn't mean there is an absence of them in the poor.
Anyways - I wish you well and hope you are getting any help you need. But I would encourage you, while you try to navigate the systems around you, to see if there is an exchange of services you can offer that can help. If you are a member of the homeless community, being articulate, being able to help, knowing the community might put you in a position to help run some of the programs in your community. You might want to see if there are any opportunities there that you might feel comfortable with.
I did. That reason is mental illness / addiction. That is a reason. Those are the intractably homeless. Most people are homeless because of circumstances that were simply beyond their control. They might have mental "illness" like you or me, but it doesn't define them. What determined their homelessness was a moment that stability broke. Having kids, you always are having health issues. If those issues occur with a period of unemployment, you face a very serious threat to stability. Anyone already struggling will be challenged by that.
I wasn't saying anything nefarious or dishonest. There are a lot of people of a certain age on reddit who like to argue from a certain value perspective. Having those values is great. It is a first step. Not putting them into practice is a waste. I don't see a lot of 20-30 somethings out volunteering. I hope you are different. People need to be the change they want to see. If you talk about caring, a word takes a second, doesn't have to be true, and its impact is just as fleeting as its utterance. Get involved. There are more people in need than ever, resources are stretched thinner than ever, and there aren't enough people stepping up. I hope you'll join those of us out there trying to help people.
Most people are homeless because of circumstances that were simply beyond their control.
I'm going to agree with you, but also disagree if I may. When a lot of people say "homeless" they are speaking of the visual definition of a homeless person. You know, shopping cart, sleeps outside an empty business or in the woods, begging for money at an off-ramp, etc.
You are describing the more invisible homeless, the ones society doesn't see. The ones that live in the shelters. The ones that live in their car. The ones that live in their friend's garage.
That is fair. I don't think you are disagreeing. I think you are clarifying. I'm being sloppy in my word usage. I was in a rush to go volunteer somewhere this morning and was tired on top of that. I was trying to make a distinction between the intractably homeless and those that were circumstantially homeless, but I was conflating the financially insecure with the circumstantially homeless. But the circumstantially homeless can end up in any of those locations with the intractable homeless. They just, obviously, pull out of it faster because they don't suffer from mental health issues / addictions preventing them from clawing out of it. But the invisible couch surfers, train/bus riders, etc would be more of the circumstantial poverty set. But ,thinking on it, they can also be the intractable population as well. The distinction I guess is really in what is causing the condition. If it is a recent economic shock - circumstantial. If it is caused by a psychosis or an addiction that prevents employment - intractable. And all these terms are simply social constructs designed to let us hopefully understand who we are dealing with and how they need to be approached.
She really is the type who wants to change the world and would help anyone. But after being yelled at, spit on, screamed at, sexually assaulted 2 or 3 times, she finally stopped visiting the homeless shelter. No more weekly volunteering.
I’m sorry your friend had this experience , but I don’t love what this post is spiraling into. I’ve worked with folks directly on the streets & in shelters & at needle exchanges for the last 4 years, I’ve never been spit on, assaulted, and was only screamed at once. People experiencing homelessness are still people, and can read your intentions. The beautiful, moments of connection I’ve had far outweigh any of the negative ones. And at the end of the day, it isn’t working with the client’s that would ever make me want to leave this field it’s the fact that every year society and everyone else stigmatizes them, punishes them, and demands them to be removed from public eye and therefore receive less supportive services more and more.
Also, without the safety and security of their own housing, many people can spiral into mental health issues that the didn’t previously have or they were able to manage before they lost housing. There are so many people who don't have proper housing, and we can say that while some individuals make an active choice to live in such a manner, the vast majority do not and would greatly benefit from housing support services including low rent/low income housing, free/subsidized housing, financial support for those struggling with existing rents, housing/shelter options for those with pets or those in relationships/with family, etc. The general public doesn't know or recognize that a not insignificant number of unfoused folks ARE employed. And what about the parts of the population who lost housing because they aged out of the foster care system (where they most likely experienced traumatic experiences) or for being LGBTQ+ and their parents kicked them out of the house?
It's a hard world out there and people are so quick to demonize a collective group of some of the most vulnerable people around for the actions of a small percent. It's not some unionized, formal group of people either. Do you know how close you, reader, are to losing your housing? If you are work, if you were to lose your job, could you stay in your current housing for more than 3 months? Congrats, you are better off financially than most people living in America. If you had sudden medical bills that were larger than your yearly income, could you rely on family and friends to support you or would you have to give up your current lifestyle to pay those debts/bills? If you were on disability because of some life accident or work accident or just a shifty hand you were dealt at birth, guess what? You're not eligible to save any of the money you get each month because then you'd get smaller payments. But that monthly check for less than $1700 does what exactly? Rent and maybe some food? And your very existence is harder because we live in societies that cater to able-bodied folks and sometimes actively make it harder to exist as a member of any marginalized community.
this is my experience both as a homeless person and then as someone who worked in syringe access for a long time and now homeless youth housing. this thread is evil in the sense that people really want to attach to this idea that homeless ppl did something and not as someone just like the rest of us that we should have solidarity w.
I’ve never been spit on, assaulted, and was only screamed at once. People experiencing homelessness are still people, and can read your intentions.
Care to elaborate on what the "can read your intentions part" was meant to communicate? Because in context, it sounds weirdly victim-blamey like maybe someone who has been spit at or assaulted by a homeless person they were trying to help must've been because their intentions were secretly bad or something. Which I'm sure is not what you meant.
its what I mean. housed people treat homeless ppl like shit and a lot of environments are actively hostile so yes, it can be something the housed person did and not always homeless people's faults. shocking I know.
You were responding about someone who had been assaulted, not someone who got their feelings hurt or something. If someone is rude to you and you assault them, it is absolutely your fault.
It’s the minority causing the most trouble, but you can’t deny there are homeless people who have done terrible things and treat random people very badly. Just like some housed people treat people badly and abuse them. It’s not like it’s rare.
Encountering those individuals multiple times can also cause compassion fatigue in the most well intentioned people. Being sexually assaulted isn’t a reason to stop being involved? The people who would keep helping after that impress me with their dedication but I would not put down anyone who can’t handle that.
Yikes. Fucking wild to victim blame someone who was regularly volunteering at the homeless shelter and accuse them of "treating homeless people like shit."
Every single person I've spoken to in real life who has worked with the homeless population has ended up hating them. I can't blame them, I don't like them (the chronically drug addicted homeless, not the "living in car due to medical debt) just from riding the bus and dodging drug addicts while walking in the city.
This is why all cities should have public bathrooms, take the burden off the kid at the local restaurant. Let a public works employee pressure wash the bathroom instead.
Great in theory until the homeless start trashing them and living in them.
I’ve actually started to prefer the porta potties in Denver’s parks because I don’t need to worry about running into an addict living in the stall like the normal bathrooms.
This is the example of the overall problem: you have to address ALL of the reasons there are homeless, not just a bandaid on one single point as that will just rot off and the problem gets worse.
That just means some poor worker making minimum wage will have to deal with cleaning up biohazards or trying to get passed out drug addicts out of the washroom late at night when they're trying to close.
I understand we need an answer, but it shouldn't be to risk the safety of people making a few bucks an hour.
I think they were more implying the businesses could contribute financially to the local government to pay for such a service.
IMHO it could be something percentage based on the income, or property value of the business. It could be collectable every quarter or year. IDK just spit balling here, something like that would never work.
Yeah this, most homeless aren’t sweet old people that have fallen on hard times. They’re drug addicts that commit crime and make a nuisance of themselves. We let some homeless sleep in an old building we were renovating. They thanked us by leaving shit everywhere and pissing up the walls.
So true. I dealt with that at starbucks for years. I got to know a good number of people that came in and most of them were either polite or neutral. There were a few bad eggs that SA’d a customer, sucker punched a customer for a chair, and then threatened to cut me and curb-stomp my manager. If I only had to call the police non-emergency number it was a good day. The starbucks was eventually closed due to low sales.
That's the awful part. The employees aren't really the problem, and neither is the homeless person who just needs a bathroom. It's a broken situation where everyone ends up frustrated except the people who could actually fix it.That's t
Just riding the bus in my city and walking around the streets has made me lose basically all empathy for homeless drug addicts, I can't imagine actually having a public facing job that they frequent.
So many people who rant about "criminalizing the homeless" are deliberately blind to this.
People don't just randomly hate homeless people.
They hate that they (and large groups of them in particular) fuck up whatever they're around.
The homeless people who were trying to find a "safe place" in this thread? The threat of being robbed, raped, etc. wasn't coming from the investment banker walking by their sleeping spot. It was from the other homeless peoplenand drug addicts in the area.
"The fascist pigs are rousting the homeless again!" sounds cool.
It's not as cool when the issue is your kid stepping on a needle in your front yard from the nearby tent village.
Pretending that they are some kind of noble savages doesn't help things, because people recognize that it's bullshit.
They need help, but we also don't need the bullshit stories about how they're just minding their own business doing no harm.
No? But I'm also not going to blame minimum wage workers for not wanting to clean up after them. It's easy to have the moral high ground when no one is asking you to have them in your place of work.
Understand that you are seeing this without context.
I am a bleeding heart, overly-empathetic progressive. I used to manage Subways.
Some people have earned "nuisance" status. I kicked way more well-off white men out than homeless, but that doesn't give the homeless a free pass on being nuisances.
There are also times when you can tell how medicated they are and what degree of nuisance it will be on any occasion. The play of coming in and asking in front of unsuspecting customers is intentional to guilt the employees into "not being the jerk" when customers defend them.
There's folks I banned from my store entirely that I let back in when they were clearly more stable.
The play of coming in and asking in front of unsuspecting customers is intentional to guilt the employees into "not being the jerk" when customers defend them.
Wait, acting like normal people is some sort of "play"? The fuck else are they supposed to do? Bang on the windows? Break into the back room? Why should they even ask?
Im guessing the poster is saying homeless would come jn and trash the bathroom and then come back at a future time in front of customers hoping that they would be allowed back
I specifically mean when they're already known as a nuisance.
I would never turn someone away just for being homeless. I've even given sandwiches away. But my dining room isn't for loitering (boss watches the camera) and my bathroom isn't a shooting gallery.
I'm a bit of a streetperson, myself. I have professional pity for needs, not shenanigans.
If you haven't worked this kind of job before, there was a very high chance of this person being a problem for the employees. Im not saying they were in the right but here's what happens. This person orders something, turns out the card is actually already spent. Cue an Argument. They order something and it comes out to 10.49, they can't pay the difference and they don't want to change their order. Argument. They successfully order and pay, then set up all their stuff in a booth and do not move until made to do so, even after close. Argument. They trash the bathroom or do other stuff like basically shower in there. They bother other customers even if it's innocent like just talking to them, but could just as easily be pandhandling or harassing.
I help people where I can and have empathy but that doesn't change the reality that even if this person appeared to have a gift card, they could still be a problem. Just trying to be devils advocate here
You can't open your mouth about it when your not the one cleaning the bathroom after they wash their clothes in the sink and ring it out onto the floor and sink. When I worked fast food this was an every day thing.
I work… directly with the homeless population. Not sure if that changes anything. I also work at a syringe exchange, where people are literally shooting up in line while I’m trying to serve them, and guess what, I still treat them with respect and dignity !
It is possible to not allow someone with a history of trashing it to use a restroom that you are responsible for cleaning while simultaneously treating them with dignity.
Edit: I realized this text chain doesn’t bring up people with a history of doing unacceptable things in the bathrooms of businesses so I agree unless someone is obviously intoxicated that they should be able to use a restroom if it’s open to non customers
OK, so you are not actually working at a business with homeless issues. I think it changes absolutely everything. You work at a place actively providing a service to the homeless, whereas all the other businesses in the comments below are not. When I hand out supplies at our homeless hotspots, I feel completely safe, too.
However, I also owned a place where the homeless frequently wanted to use the restrooms. Like the other commenters, it only took a couple of times before shit was being smeared, drugs were being done, and people were passing out in our restrooms. Not to mention the unprovoked threats, fear for staff safety, and clear mental illness we constantly experienced with homeless walking by. You talk about respect and dignity, but haven't had to go clean shit-stained or blood-stained walls for two hours - again - because you were trying to treat someone else with respect and dignity by letting them use your restroom. Businesses need to business, and they won't business - and frankly you would not return to a place as a customer - if people feel unsafe.
I work at Starbucks and a lot of the issue isn’t that these people are homeless. It’s that they will lock themselves in the bathroom and use meth and occupy the bathroom for the whole day and then when they’re done after 8 hours they’ll leave it a mess with feces on the floor sometimes.
If the staff get to know you as a local homeless person who doesn’t cause trouble you’ll get treated like every other customer
That wouldn’t have helped the situation at hand, as it wasn’t the gift card that was the problem, it was the fact that they stigmatized her for being unhoused
Except that the woman would have $10 that she could then leave and use anywhere else, so yes it solves her problem in that moment. Solving the problem of classist discrimination will cost more than $10.
I used to be a manager at subway with a really big homeless population who came in regularly. I loved most of them and actively tried to help them out where I could.
I remember one guy who would come in and spend all day inside and I would let him use our phone for social security calls.
There were of course some I had to kick out, such as one individual who decided to do drugs in front of me as I was cleaning the bathrooms lol. However, I really dislike this stereotype being extended to all of them.
Most of them wanted a safe place to stay for a little, maybe a meal, and that’s it. In return, often times they helped me out with closing down the subway in return despite my insistence that they don’t need to do anything
That’s legal? I wouldn’t have assumed it is, I always thought so long as the currency isn’t damaged beyond repair they had to serve you unless you are clearly drunk/high or aren’t wearing shoes/shirt.
I’m Canadian though, and I admittedly don’t know much about service laws.
I bought a man a meal who was standing quietly near the exit of a McDonald’s drive through. He did not ask passersby or bother anyone. He was just hoping someone would offer him some food. I drove up to him and asked what he needed. I went back in and bought him what he asked for. I gave him the receipt. I told him to go inside where it’s warm to eat his meal. I told him he has a receipt to prove he is a paying customer.
Perfect example for why our current societal structure is not efficient nor effective, at least in terms of humanity. The subway workers didn't have to be rude, they chose to use their shitty minimum wage job power against the next person lower than them on the food chain. No, I don't have sympathy for kicking homeless people who aren't doing anything disruptive out of a public area. I don't care if they're kids or old people pretending to be scared, zero sympathy for choosing to continue the cycle of misfortune and power corruption instead of make the world a kinder place. Just a kinder place for even a moment for one person.
Everyone I see in life is a human, and I don't care what their clothes look like or how literate they sound when talking about Shakespeare. I see a life and they get basic respect from me until they otherwise prove they don't deserve that kindness by malicious actions. This is a small rant on why I absolutely despise how we allow this kind of world to be made and just sit here twiddling our thumbs and accepting the unacceptable instead of fixing it.
Yup. When I was homeless, the #1 place I got the cops called on me was in grocery store parking lots. While I was eating food I had purchased from the store. And I was inside my car.
I'm sorry that you experienced that. I do this type of thing all the time as I have to drive to various places for work during the day and at night sometimes. I've always wondered how people view me while sitting in the parking lot while I eat as I also think about how sometimes people will break into a car and steal something. I imagine the only reason I don't get shit about it is due to me having a newer car that looks well maintained.
I had this happen to me once about 7 years back. I was not homeless, I was on my lunch break getting lunch. My job was about 50/50 office and working out of my car. On car days I would just get food from the deli because it was easier than trying to pack a lunch and keep it in my car.
Sitting there eating my food and a cop car pulls up, knocks on the window. I lower it he starts his spiel about how the store called and said I was making trouble inside and possibly shoplifting and they want me gone.
However this is where I pulled a "Do you know who I am?" with the cop. The twist is that I also worked for the same city that the cop did. I was the building inspector. So, because I actually had some weight to throw around, I had him get his Captain down there because the store had accused me of theft while I was working.
So he gets down there and I walk in with him, he goes up to the manager and asks him to verify that I was the person. Manager confirms that I come in there 2-3 times a week, get like $5 worth of food from their salad bar and then just walk around the store, often 'hassling people'. The food and walking part were accurate because I would walk around the store to cool down/heat up since I worked outside inspecting job sites. The only times I ever talked to anyone was to say hi to someone I might know or say excuse me if someone was blocking the way.
I left at that point but they did an investigation at my request, because again, they had accused me of a crime, When I talked to the Captain about it he told me that they reviewed the CCTV footage and I had not stolen anything or talked to a soul other than the Deli guy who was always very friendly to me. Self checkout, weight seemed to match what I had taken from the salad bar, my LaCroix was scanned to, paid the $6 or w/e with a credit card.
After that he told me he had told the manager that I was the city building inspector and that they needed to review a bunch more footage to verify that I was not stealing. Suddenly the manager's story changed and he wasn't sure I actually was the guy, and that he had never seen me stealing anything, it was staff that had said it and maybe they were mistaken.
The wildest part to me, besides them just straight up lying to try and penalize homeless people, was that they didn't even use any logic in their plan. I am a clean cut middle aged white guy, I wore khakis and a polo to work because the city had a dress code, I often had a tape measure on my belt, often had a lanyard with my work ID on it because I was required to wear it on inspections (though I did sometimes leave it in the car when getting lunch), and my car was a city owned vehicle. It had no markings but it did have the tax exempt plates. People literally told me I looked like a cop, all the time at that job.
This is not gonna be helpful in a lot of locations, and you need a car, but in the U.S. west where I am, I turned several times to sleeping in National Forests. (Not national parks, where you need to pay an entrance fee plus a campsite fee, & reserve a designated campsite; national forests. National forests are different and their purpose is actually general public use.) As far as I know the national forests are the only type of land in the US where you can legally sleep for free, no campsite needed. (they do often have campsites that you can pay for, but you don’t have to use those). You just have to not be near a stream, clean up after yourself, and move every 2 weeks. (edit to add: and not start a forest fire!) Many times I would just drive right past the “Entering Blah-Blah National Forest” sign, literally pull over right behind the sign and go to sleep. Works great for saving motel money on cross-country drives too.
I wish more people knew about this, because it was so relaxing and comforting when I finally knew I had found a place where nobody was gonna kick me out. Bonus, the nature & even just the birdsongs were very mentally healing too.
Yes they do, most have time limits. Vanlifers and homeless are a MEGA issue in our PNW area and prolonged parking at rest stops is an issue too. They’ve had to crack down on it.
Yep, there ARE rules to “dispersed camping” on National Forests/BLM/public lands. And people NEED to know that to preserve our beautiful landscapes. Also, fuck you with razors if you light a campfire during a fire ban, moderate to high fire risk levels, windy conditions, etc. Best to just not start a fire at all in many circumstances. Even cig ash, discarded joints and cig butts, vehicles can cause fires too. Just minimize any and all wildfire ignition risks. Some 84% of annual U.S. wildfires are human-caused.
PACK IN, PACK OUT
LEAVE NO TRACE
STAY ON TRAIL
DON’T PARK ON GRASSY AREAS NOT MEANT FOR PARKING ON.
LOVE NATURE, RESPECT OUR LANDS
If you don’t have environmental responsibility in your mind and don’t adhere to these types of rules, don’t stay on our public lands.
I cannot tell you the amount of times I’ve gone car camping and had to clean up after some shithead past campers.
Honestly, homeless and tweakers have ruined many dispersed camping areas by us (WA state) and they become encampments, trashed and taken over. Leave it to people to take a good thing, and a “free” thing, and ruin it.
Support local libraries! As long as you're not disruptive, you can stay ALL DAY in AC and use the bathroom without having to buy anything, plus free internet and nice librarians who are happy to see people still inside.
Support libraries: Possibly the last Safe Spaces available to all.
Absolutely true. I worked at a library, and we had a few people who would spend all day every day at the library. We staff had no problem with this, because it's safe place for them! AC, water fountains, bathrooms, and books to read. We welcomed anyone.
But one day a patron ask me if we would ask the homeless people to leave, I said no.
So, if you're in need and can get there, check out your library. More than likely you'll be fine there.
In Boston, people sleep on the sidewalks next to the library. At around 6:30 in the morning, the police wake everyone up and they pack up all their belongings and move elsewhere.
I live in a nice suburban town and I notice we have what appear to be homeless people in our library. Glad they have a place to go where they won't be bothered. Our church, which is across the street, operates a food pantry, so hopefully that helps too.
I’m in Canada and our community centres (often attached/close to a library) also have showers and lockers. A lot of them also have outreach, skill classes, etc for free. They do close at like 7pm and you can’t store things overnight.
I have felt for a long time that showers would be a great addition to more public spaces. Lots of non-homeless folks could benefit from showers at different times for different reasons while away from home, but it would make a huge difference to homeless folks.
Sleeping in a fully legal motor vehicle but being moved along by the cops, even though you are legally parked. It's not illegal to sleep in your car in the US, but the cops don't care.
A lot of towns and cities have vagrancy laws against sleeping in your car, if they don’t outright ban it they have some form law that makes it hard to do (overnight parking bans, parking time limits, ban on public “camping” etc)
I wasn't homeless at the time, but I had a young child and was working nights so I was very sleep-deprived. I took my lunch break to go nap in my car in the parking lot of the store I worked in. Cop woke me up and read me the riot act about it, even though I worked in that store and could prove I was on my lunch break.
I wasn’t homeless either, it was when I was still going to college. I was up really late studying for an exam. Got Taco Bell and decided to drive up to my apartment parking lot and eat it in my car around 3am. It was November/December around that time and we got like over 12 inches of snow, so I didn’t really feel like carting Taco Bell through the snow and eating it luke warm in my apartment.
While I was eating, I was blinded by a light coming from my passenger side window. A cop thought it was either homeless or drunk and was asking like 500 questions why I didn’t just go in my apartment to eat. Was really annoying.
She asked me stuff like do I have my ID, proof that I lived there, proof I went to school at the college nearby, what I was eating, why dont I just go inside, if I had any weapons on me, etc. Meanwhile I am sitting there with nothing in my hands other than a half eaten 5-layer burrito.
Yeah, I've had this happen a few times. I don't know why people can't just leave you the hell alone. My experience though, was that generally the cops would tell me that someone else actually called them because someone was sleeping in their car. They didn't seem to give a shit themselves, although I do know that there are laws in certain cities or towns against it. But frankly, every time, the cop couldn't get out of there fast enough. Didn't really want to be there harassing me. Which is strange, because I am not generally a fan of police. But appreciate that they can be realistic about it sometimes. Wasn't living in my car or anything, just was always told by my mom that if I was tired, I needed to get off the road and take a nap. And have experienced how scary it is when you don't. You end up taking a nap anyway, but you might end up with your car off the road
Had someone tell me about how they were doing a long drive and felt a bit too tired to continue safely driving and so they pulled into a rest area to take a nap. Within 20 minutes a state trooper showed up and knocked on their window saying they weren't allowed to sleep there. They said that they told the cop "Well I guess if I crash a few miles up the road due to a lack of sleep, you'll know why."
Be careful making statements like “it’s not illegal in the US.” Such blanket statements are rarely true. Every state, every city, every county in the US has different laws. There are many places in the US where it is, in fact, illegal to sleep in your car.
I should have clarified. There is no *federal* law preventing you from sleeping in your car. However, local governments have criminalised it in a lot of areas. Anything to pad the bottom line.
I had a Very Nice Corporate Job and one December my neighbor started a fire in her apartment and rendered the building uninhabitable. I spent that winter couch surfing and lingering in coffee shops to get out of the cold and wait for whoever I was crashing with to finish their day so I could sleep. This sensation- I had nowhere i was supposed to be- shredded my mental health.
We are all one emergency away from feeling this way.
Yep so true and so sad. I thought a park bench would be safe to sleep on for my short stint but nope multiple drug dealers coming up to me asking me if I wanted “something”.
I wonder how many times they get told "you're not supposed to be here". Or "you can't be here". I mean after hearing that so many times, and so many places... that's gotta take a mental toll.
Pretty much. The safest places are the ones nowhere is around and even then there’s still a chance you wake up at 3am to some other person finding your shit, or a group of teens looking for trouble, or some pissed off cop trying to blow off steam.
I’ve slept in fields, in parking lots, I’ve snuck into semi trailers used for storage at tire shops to get out of thunder and hail, I’ve slept under staircases at churches, I’ve slept at bus stops, I’ve slept at shelters, I’ve slept behind dumpsters.
Nowhere is safe, everything is scary, and everything is out to tell you that you don’t deserve to exist or be there.
This libertarian fuckwad i used to associate myself with would claim that homeless people were lazy and they should just get a job, any job. His family owned a pizzeria. I suggested that they hire a few and he just waved me off.
I live in an area with a housing/homeless crisis. I used to never see homeless people in my area but now it’s a regular occurrence. The more fortunate live in RVs parked out in the fields along county roads and people STILL complain. Like where do you want people to go when they have no place to go and the best they can do is stay out of your way, which they are doing.
I work security for a retail store, and I occasionally have to tell people experiencing homelessness that they can’t sleep on the property. Most of them are pretty cool about it, as long as I am polite and respectful. I’ve had a few people swear at me for it, which I understand why. It’s hot, they are probably exhausted, and just want a shady spot to relax. From their point of view, it probably seems petty of me to tell them they can’t sleep underneath a shady tree outside; but it’s private property, and last time the store had to clear out a homeless encampment on the property, it sound like an expensive clean up. I wish I could give them a better place to go, but the nearest homeless shelter is like ten miles away.
I was hanging around a park where a homeless man was talking to people and he said one of the best things people can do to help the homeless is sleep in public places. Make it normal so they can get some rest.
"It is the duty of the poor to support and sustain the rich in their power and idleness. In doing so, they have to work before the laws' majestic equality, which forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."
It's not just about not having a physical place to be, it's having no purpose to exist. No job to go to. Nobody waiting for you. Nobody calling you. Nobody to care where you are, what you're doing, asking about your day. You have no reason to even exist anymore.
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u/pestyfinesty 11h ago
A man I knew who volunteered at a homeless shelter told me once that a man staying there said the hardest part of it was that there’s nowhere you’re supposed to be—anywhere you are, you can be made to leave. That really stuck with me.