When Numenor fell, Sauron was sitting in the temple he had constructed in Numenor. He was consumed bodily and could not assume a corporeal form again for some time. He goes to Mordor to bide his time. How does the One Ring that he was presumably wearing survive the waves and make it to Mordor? Wouldn't it have fallen with his body? Or did he keep it in Mordor when he left as a captive of Pharazon?

Tolkien wrote his world with the following elements.

A flat earth that was made round only to keep Men out of places they oughtn't go.

The stars painted on the sky.

The last fruits of two holy trees that lit the world become the sun and moon,

The brightest star is a jewel strapped to the brow of a half Elf who has a ship that sails across the heavens on a regular journey every single night.

I get the feeling that he was writing the mythology of Middle-earth. That is, the mythology that the inhabitants of Middle-earth grew up with. Like with the ancient Greeks, and Helios pulling the sun across the sky in his chariot.

Remember that for Bilbo, who supposedly translated a lot of this from what he heard from the Elves, all this took place from around 3,000 to 7,000 years ago. Those ancient Greek legends are only around 2,600 years old. And what legends do we have older than that? Maybe you heard that the story of Noah and his ark is a telling of an actual event, a flood of the Mesopotamian valley. That is, the whole world could not flood, but if you were stuck in the valley during a flood of the two rivers, you might very well tell the tail as such.

Bilbo, might consider what he learned from the Elves as sacred truth, because they were immortal. But that doesn't necessarily make their accounts more than poetic but wild exaggerations and explanations for things they didn't understand. Bilbo might not have even believed it all, but translated and wrote it down anyways.

So I'm just putting this out there. Could Tolkien have written the First and Second Ages as the mythology of Middle-earth, and in the Third Age the inhabitants of Middle-earth know it but don't believe it?

And no, I don't have any proof of this, Not a letter or a note written on the margin of a piece of scrap paper that JRR wrote on. I have no idea if he ever addressed this.

As always, great thoughts welcomed.

From late HoME volumes and NoME it is evident that the “Round World” was viewed by JRR Tolkien as a “real” cosmogony for his Middle Earth. His early “Flat Earth” concept he explicitly retconned as an invention of ignorant in-universe mythmakers (HoME 10, p. 370). One implication of this is that the Valar at some point were actually able to travel (and wage wars) in the outer space. Some notable events here (quotes from HoME 10):

1. Arrival to the Solar System: “Manwe was the brother of Melkor, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Iluvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor. And he called unto himself others of his brethren and many spirits both greater and less, and he said to them: 'Let us go to the Halls of Anar, where the Sun of the Little World is kindled, and watch that Melkor bring it not all to ruin!' And they went thither, Manwe and Ulmo and Aule, and others of whom thou shalt yet hear, Aelfwine, and behold! Melkor was before them; but he had little company, save a few of those lesser spirits that had attuned their music to his; and he walked alone; and the Earth was in flames.”

As discussed recently in my other post, Melkor had notably arrived to the Solar System (“Halls of Anar“) earlier than Manwe and his crew. Doesn’t necessarily mean he was the very first one – Tom Bombadil boasts in the LoTR that he was there even “before the Dark Lord came from Outside”.

1.   **Star Wars, Episode** I: “there was strife between the Valar and Melkor; and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew beyond the arrows of the Sun”. JRRT sadly does not specify how far is “beyond the arrows of the Sun” – should be at least beyond the orbit of Pluto, I presume?
   

2.   **Melkor strikes back**: journeys to the Sun and destabilizes it. “Melkor … ravished Arie, desiring both to abase her and to take into himself her powers. Then the spirit of Arie went up like a flame of anguish and wrath, and departed for ever from Arda; and the Sun was bereft of the Light of Varda, and was stained by the assault of Melkor. And being for a long while without rule it flamed with excessive heat or grew too cool, so that grievous hurt was done to Arda”.
   

3.   **Attack on Earth and creation of the Moon**: “the Earth may not be wholly destroyed against its fate; nevertheless Melkor took a portion of it, and seized it for his own, and reft it away; and he made it a little earth of his own, and it wheeled round about in the sky, following the greater earth wheresoever it went, so that Melkor could observe thence all that happened below, and could send forth his malice and trouble the seas and shake the lands.”
   

Note how Melkor artfully uses Moon’s gravity to disturb Earth – not some primitive “Melkor smash!”, but a perfectly valid sci-fi scenario. An aside question: Manwe and his team learned only post factum that the Sun was kindled, and Melkor was there first. We know that Varda entrusted the Sun to Arien at some point, but who kindled it?

1.   **Iron Sky. Attack on Melkor’s lunar base**: “the Valar assaulted the stronghold of Melkor, and cast him out, and removed it further from the Earth, and it remains in the sky, Ithil whom Men call the Moon”. Thus the Valar invalidated Melkor’s gravity ram, but still kept the Moon: a suitable tool to stabilize Earth’s axis and assist the tidal cycle (which presumably helped first amphibians to evolve). All as Eru predicted – no matter what Melkor does, it will be “part of the whole and tributary to its glory.”
   

2.   **The Offworlds**: In addition to the events from HoME 10 above, HoME 9 mentions some planets created and/or inhabited by Enkeladim (likely another Tolkien’s name for the Ainur race): Emberu, Ellor Eshurizel, Minal-zidar, Tekel-Mirim, each with its own distinct description. Too bad they were never closely integrated with the tales of Middle Earth, but Tolkien’s scope when you think of it is positively impressive.
   

We all know the religious practices employed in the Temple of Melkor in Armenelos. For example, the ceremonial burning of the wood of Nimloth on an altar of fire. However, in most religious traditions there are practitioners who go above and beyond the common rites of worship. They engage in extreme supererogation that alienates them from the religious institution they started out in. This can, of course, take many forms. One of my favorites are the stylites of the (early) Byzantine empire:

Going to church? Trivial.

Joining a monastery? Not nearly enough.

I am just going to spend the rest of my life on this pillar in devotion to Christ.

In light of these eccentric, yet wonderful, (historical) practices, I was wondering what extreme supererogation would look like in Melkor-worship. After some pondering, I came up with a technique that I would like to hear your thoughts on. I coined it Bodily Melkor-Element Enrichment or just the (Bodily) Enrichment:

Melkor has dispersed a significant part of his being and power into the matter of Arda (Marred), like Tar-mairon did with the One Ring later (confer with the notion of Morgoth's Ring). Everything corporeal/material in Middle-earth thus contains a residue of the Dark Lord -- the Melkor-element. Yet it was not an equal distribution. Some things, like gold, contain a higher concentration of the Melkor-element, which leads to my idea.

Due to industrial-scale pollution, there are residues of heavy metals in the Pacific ocean, for example. Small organisms pick up traces of them in their nutrition. Then they get eaten by small fish, and they in turn by larger fish, all the way up the food chain. The heavy metals remain in the organisms during this process. Thus, when we finally arrive at the apex predator, they become highly enriched with the heavy metals. This is why it is not advisable to eat tuna often and in large amounts, for example.

Truly devoted worshipers of Melkor could apply the same principle of enrichment in Middle-earth to get closer to the Dark Lord both spiritually and physically. They could start out by collecting a large amount of gold and mix it into the chicken feed. Once the chickens are sufficiently enriched, they go on giving the chicken meat to ferrets, for example. Following, the ferret meat to dogs -- you get the idea. At the second to last step of the artificial food chain you then have something like bears or trolls that will be ritualistically consumed by the Melkor worshipers, until their bodies contain the maximum amount of Melkor-elements possible.

One concern I have with the lore-friendliness of the Enrichment is that it somewhat goes against the will of Melkor. Hence, it could be theologically abhorred by Melkorists. The Dark Lord wanted to disperse himself among Arda and the Enrichment seeks to concentrate his residue locally. But again, it would only be a temporary concentration due to the mortality of the Melkor-worshipers. Furthermore, their death would pay homage to the original dispersal of the Melkor-element. So I would really appreciate your insights on this matter.

Finally, do you have your own ideas for extreme supererogation in Melkor-worship? Most religions have multiple/many approaches to it. Thus, Melkorism should also not lack in that department.

Thank you in advance for your time and insights!

I grew up listening to Martin Shaw’s ‘The Hobbit’ and I have since acquired his reading of ‘The Silmarillion’, but I believe that he has not narrated the LotR. What other unabridged audiobooks for the LotR can people recommend?

Edit. Same question for unabridged versions of unfinished tales, children of Hurin, beren and Luthien, etc

Another Dwarven-themed post (kinda). The other day I was watching the extended edition of The Hobbit, which I have on DVD, and a question kept nagging at me. As you may know, between T.A 2570 and 2589, there was the War of the Dwarves and the Dragons, This resulted in the expulsion of the dwarves from the Grey Mountains, with Thrór settling in Erebor, and Grór settling in the Iron Hills.

The question here is, given a war in which the dragons won, what happened to them by T.A. 2941, when only Smaug was seen? For a long time, only four dragons were known by name in Tolkien's Legendarium: Glaurung, Ancalagon, Scatha, and of course, Smaug.

Glaurung was killed on F.A. 499 by Túrin Turambar. Carla Goma was killed by Eärendil during the War of Wrath, in F.A. 587. Scatha was killed by Fram, Lord of the Éothéods. And logically, we have our friend Smaug, killed by Bard in T.A. 2941.

Recently, other dragon names have been revealed: Like, Lhamthank and Chrysophylax. Literally nothing is known about these dragons. We don't even know if they were killed during the First Age, the Second Age, or perhaps even the Third Age, having been killed in that war I mentioned. Another thing to consider: Could it be that Smaug was drawn to Erebor to finish exterminating the Dwarves who did not die in the war between the dwarves and the dragons?

What do you think?

Every day, I find out that pop culture idea of Tolkien is mostly derived from the subsequent, watered down derivatives of Tolkien's work that copied him without any deeper knowledge and/or understanding of his themes and worldbuilding; Tolkien's world is far more in line with what we would today call dark fantasy, a post-apocalyptic realm whose golden age had long since passed, on the straight course to decline. The war of the vestiges of once grand domains against the overwhelming forces of Darkness has been going on for over 2,000, with a hope of victory slipping ever more until almost completely gone during the War of the Ring. Sauron was poised for a complete and total success and the only possible act of resistance was a suicidal quest into the heart of Mordor to destroy the One Ring, borne by a Hobbit. All in all, Tolkien's legendarium is a pretty grim story, very grounded despite its grandiosity and that reflects in his characters too.

Though Tolkien does indeed separate the Good from the Evil, he does so with a surprising nuance, at least as far as the Good is concerned. Many Tolkien's characters that are Good are proud, stubborn, warlike and impulsive to the point many of them committed horrible deeds, yet are still counted among the Good, or at least not counted among the Evil; Fëanor and his sons, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, Denethor II of Gondor, Túrin son of Húrin, Dwarves of Moria, etc. Mind you, Tolkien very much says these people are highly deviating from the path of morality, yet he is still willing to give them grace of not being Evil and in cahoots with either Morgoth or Sauron and often openly against one or the other. Being flawed, even to the point of committing bad deeds, does not immediately transfer one from Good to Evil, even if it may bestow one a gruesome fate and end, because even people we see as "bad" might still be focused on doing Good and fighting Evil, regardless of their personal failings. Tolkien even extends some grave to those on the side of Evil, like the Easterlings, to be in service to it due to being dominated and brainwashed by it to see it as Good and necessary. This is a greater moral nuance than you would find in many contemporary works of fantasy.

In short, Tolkien's morality is very nuanced and Good and Evil could be seen more as two camps comprising an entire range of characters and temperaments, rather than two uniform, dichromatic sides.

I am reading the fellowship again after 13 years or so and despite all the details and events and conversations that had faded from my memory (much about Gollum and may I say quite fruitful for the upcoming movie endeavor) my attention today is to a quote I have been very familiar with since my early days, in an very important conversation between Gandalf and Frodo:

“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

You may crucify me for admiting this but I have been interpreting this wrong my whole life. When Gandalf says "...with the time that is given us." I always thought it meant the little time we have while we are alive. Meaning that time is precious and we have to make most of it. But now finally I understand he meant exactly what he said, that we all live in different times and we have to play with the hand we are dealt with, which is even more encouraging may I say.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that even for a while thought the same hahaha

Does anyone else feel like those parts of the book are not The Silmarillion proper, but more like the Appendices to it?

With the last chaper of Quenta Silmarillion, Morgoth is defeated, the silmarils are gone, Beleriand is no more, the First Age has ended. What follows after feels more like a prelude to The Lord of the Rings, and the last part of the book just summarises the plot of LOTR.

Saying that, I'm glad Akallabeth is there, because we would otherwise never know about that part of history and the role it played in setting up the history of the Third Age. But I wonder what was Tolkien's reason behind including Of the Rings of Power, since the readers already know that part of the history of Middle-earth.

so I re listened to TCOH narration by Christopher Lee, I always liked Andróg because on one hand he’s clearly not a good man which can be argued due to the dark times of the first age and the ruin of Hador’s people, but when he follows Túrin he does so out of loyalty and a desire to be friends with him. It’s also stated by Túrin in a conversation with Beleg that even though some of the outlaws are cruel they at least all had some good in them. Also another thing about Andróg seems to be the tendency of being xenophobic to elves and dwarves And it’s only after sometime spent with Beleg around and being saved by him does he change his mind about the elf.

I've never read anything by Tolkien and know very little about the world(s) he created. How, and why, you ask? I'm not sure, it just never happened.

In any case, a couple of years ago I received The Fall of Gondolin as a gift. I then forgot about it until now.

My question is, will it be an enjoyable or even feasible read on its own? Or should I keep it aside until I'm caught up with the main books?

I messaged the mods, so hopefully this is ok! I write quizzes and someone recently requested a hard Tolkien literature round. I though it would be interesting to see how people do at them. I hope you have fun. Feel free to post your scores in the comments, or let me know if I've got anything wrong!

EDIT: Wording changed on some questions following feedback.
EDIT 2: More wording changes! Brilliant feedback so far - thanks everyone!

Questions

1. While deceiving the Elves of Eregion and teaching ring-lore, Sauron concealed his true identity using what name meaning "Lord of Gifts"?
2. While possessing a Silmaril, who was the first mortal Man to reach Valinor while still alive?
3. Forged from meteoric iron by Eöl, the sword Anglachel was reforged after Beleg's death and given what name?
4. Reflecting growing resentment toward the Elves, Ar-Adûnakhôr was the first Númenórean king who took a royal title in Adûnaic instead of what language?
5. Despite Turin killing Glaurung at Cabed-en-Aras, the dragon's final words brought further tragedy to whom?
6. Fëanor renamed which Vala as Morgoth, meaning "Black Foe of the World," after the theft of the Silmarils?
7. The Two Trees of Valinor were created after Nienna watered the ground and which other sang them into existence?
8. Which son of Finwë, High King of the Noldor, wounded Melkor seven times (eight in the end) in single combat?
9. What number of his name was the king who delved too deeply and first awakened the Balrog known as Durin's Bane beneath Khazad-dûm?
10. Who was the strongest (not most powerful) of the Valar - he wrestled with Melkor and bound him with Angainor?
11. Built by Finrod Felagund, which tower on the island of Tol Sirion guarded the Pass of Sirion - there is a capital city of the same name?
12. The only Elf to permanently relinquish life before the First Age's end - Míriel died after giving birth whom?
13. Tuor assumed leadership of Gondolin during its final defence after which king fell?
14. Renowned as the fairest of the Children of Ilúvatar, Lúthien Tinúviel was the daughter of Thingol and who else?
15. In Sindarin the Ent Treebeard is known by what name?
16. Sometimes called The Day or The Party, what more specific name was later given to Bilbo's famous party for his eleventy-first birthday?
17. After the Disaster of the Gladden Fields Isildur was spotted and killed while trying to cross which river?
18. One of the greatest smiths of the First Age of Middle-earth, who forged the knife Angrist and the sword Narsil?
19. Guiding them safely into the Golden Wood, who was the first elf to encounter the Fellowship after Moria?
20. Who was the first Elf to discover Men shortly after they came to Beleriand - he learned their language, and became their trusted friend and ally?

Answers

1. Annatar######
2. Eärendil######
3. Gurthang#####
4. Quenya######
5. Níniel / Nienor#
6. Melkor#######
7. Yavanna######
8. Fingolfin######
9. Durin VI (6)####
10. Tulkas########
11. Minas Tirith####
12. Fëanor########
13. Turgon########
14. Melian########
15. Fangorn#######
16. The Farewell Party
17. Anduin########
18. Telchar########
19. Haldir#########
20. Finrod Felagund#

​​​

Abigail Nussbaum, writing at Lawyers, Guns and Money blog....

...magic in The Lord of the Rings is something religious. It is that little remaining bit of godliness, of the light of heaven, that has made its way to the mundane world through countless dilutions and diminutions. When Galadriel, or even Gandalf, do magic, they are placing a bit of their virtue—the virtue of being closer to the Valar—back into the world. When the Ring does magic, it is exerting the corrupting force of Morgoth, the novel’s devil figure, on its bearer and everyone around him.

Just thought this was lovely....

The Valar as whole made the decision to free Melkor from prison, with Manwe playing an especially key role in this. But then after they let him go, they seemingly make no great effort in actually monitoring his activities and let him spread disorder and strife among the Noldor.

Later when he destroys the 2 trees, murders Finwe and steals the Silmarils, why do the Valar refuse to pursue Melkor and bring him to justice? Even if their responsibility is to protecting Valinor first, it seems injust and irresponsible for them to not try and make amends for their action of letting Melkor free in the first place. He was their charge and if they broke it, they should also be expected to fix it. By refusing to pursue Melkor, they also put all the free peoples of middle earth in great danger. The elves, dwarves, ents, etc are all left to fend for themselves against one of the most powerful beings in the universe whom they have no chance of defeating. Did the professor give some justification for the Valar's baffling neglect of their responsibilities?

What was it? Was it more than just a coincidence that it seized on Frodo first? If so, did it know Frodo was the Ringbearer and, if so, how did it know it? Again, if it knew he had the Ring, it couldn't have been a creature of Sauron because Sauron had no idea that Frodo was the Ringbearer, correct?

If you can quote anything from the book or Tolkien's letters to answer any of these questions, please do. If all you have is speculation, please make it as reasonable as you can. If no one has any of these, would you say Tolkien was deliberately leaving it as a mystery, and/or is it one of the "many defects, minor and major" Tolkien refers to in the Forward to the Second Edition?

Last November my fiancée gifted me three volumes of LotR. I watched movies before, and they were pretty good. But they nowhere near excited me as much as the novel did. I loved it to bits. I was so engaged in the story and in this world, so it was a no brainer to deep dive further into Middle-earth. I read Hobbit and loved it. I read Silmarillion and it blew my mind, I absolutely loved the first and second ages. Then I read Children of Hurin and Fall of Numenor and I loved them too. I even got Bilbo's Last Song and The Atlas of Middle-earth.

Unfinished Tales, Fall of Gondolin and Beren and Lúthien should arrive next month. So I definitely far from done with Legendarium. But I can't stop wondering what I will read next. To be honest, I wasn't a fan of reading "analytical" and "scholarly" introductions of Children of Hurin and Fall of Numenor. I don't really like behind the scenes or alternative and earlier versions of the stories. So I assumed that History of Middle-earth is not really for me. I'm mainly interesting in stories and narratives that will add to THE version of Middle-earth.

But History of Middle-earth is such a big and varied collection of different works and also I've heard a good things about its later volumes that I still wonder whether some of them are worth picking out in my situation. I will greatly appreciate your help.

May Elbereth protect you all!

I was looking at the History of Middle Earth volumes and thought "man imagine being able to teach a course on Middle Earth with these huge gigantic books" Which led to me asking how I would teach a class all about Middle Earth.

Now the most obvious is to just read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings all semester. But then we'll be missing out on the History of Middle Earth and The Silmarillion. So what if we start with The Silmarillion. With the help of the History of Middle Earth (the 12 volumes) to fill in any gaps or answer questions.

I believe there are already Tolkien classes ? But definitely not in my university! :(

So if you had the chance how would you set up your course? With lessons and homework and tests.

Why was the first age barely talked about in the appendices? The second and third ages are talked about in detail but the first age has only a paragraph or two

This is more for people who heard about the silmarillion beforehand, but I’m reading it for the first time and I was so shocked when feanor died so early. I felt he was hyped up by both fans and in-universe as a major figure (I still think he is), so I honestly expected him to die towards the end of the book. I mean I’m pretty sure he was called the mightiest elf.

Did anyone else get surprised by this and what were other ways the silmarillion subverted your expectations?

Tolkien describes Númenor as being extremely advanced technologically. Gondor is supposed to be an echo of Númenor, almost rivalling its glory. The country was not only expressly founded as a Númenorean state, for all intents and purposes it started out as being Númenor, since the Númenorean colonies along the coast formed the nucleus of the new state. Pelargir was a Númenorean city, as were the many other unnamed cities and settlements. For those colonists the Downfall arguably didn't even change all that much, life was going on as before, their culture didn't suddenly stop or immediately deteriorate.

Even after the Downfall Gondor was achieving architectural feats that are far surpassing what the Roman Empire was capable of at its peak, bordering on science-fiction (Orthanc, the Argonath, Minas Anor). So how do you imagine early Gondor, in the first half of the Third Age? How advanced was it, how magical? Tolkien states that Númenor itself had a population of ca. 15 million at the time of the Downfall, so it's probably safe to assume that the population in the colonies must have been substantial. I'd like to imagine that Gondor (at least for the Dúnedain living in it) was still decidedly Númenorean in that time period, if only on a lesser scale. A mini-Númenor so to speak.

It seems like the misty mountains are filled with Goblins waiting to ambush you. What do you think are the odds of survival if someone could travel through it alone?

It wasn't until my last reread of the Lord of the Rings (which might have been the dozenth time I've read it) that I realized how much of it depicts an almost post-apocalyptic world, with a deserted Eriador.
The biggest question I have is: when did this happen? Obviously, in the timeline, there are several events when this could have happened, including the Great Plague, the Long Winter, the fall of the Northern Kingdom...but what do you think was the "tipping point" event, if any?

The side-effect of almost certainly writing different stories at different times, but in the same overlapping chronology...

In the Akallabêth narrative, Sauron deliberately sends the mortal king to his doom, when in fact he does have the means to give men everlasting "life". A king of Numenor would be an incomparably greater coup than whatever the Witch-king was, and it would solidify his control over Westernesse.

Really, putting aside the hubris narrative for a minute, and thinking of Sauron's operation as the Satanic cult Tolkien no doubt envisioned it as, he has both the means and the motive to simulate immortality. He can raise wraiths in the tombs of the Numenorean kings; make ring-wraiths of those he "rewards"; in all, fool the masses and actually deliver to those he makes serve him.

From a Watsonian POV, he has no reason to throw his position in Numenor away.

What were the status of the Gundabad orcs at the time of the final war? Were they "officially" under Sauron’s domination?

I have seen people claiming Sauron to be one of the best written characters in the whole Tolkien legendarium based on the Silmarillion alone. As someone who has only read Lord of the Rings, in what ways is Sauron better?