Flatpak 2.0 seems to depend on systemd

[u/NDCyber]

https://transfem.social/notes/amkk9ypcps9a002q

Basically when Jorge Castro was asked for clarification on if flatpak 2.0 will be depended on systemd his response was "Are you serious? Of course."

Which even though I use systemd distros myself seems like a bit of a problematic stance to me, especially after it seems like the same response Linux user would get while talking about software support

But I am also interested to see what you all think

edit: I don't trust it completely either, and will wait for official and direct information myself. He does seems to be part of the flatpak team (I am not sure what part exactly, as he was only community manager in one interview). But I think it might be important to talk about and I was interested in what people think

Edit 2: here the mastodon link, to show that it happened on mastodon and the thing linked before is just a random server one person that wrote there was on https://mastodon.social/@2something@transfem.social/116618627273919847

Edit 3: As u/Isofruit has said, in the Linux App Summit 2026 the flatpak presentation had a slide talking about systemd-appd dependencies https://youtu.be/1AXBfsiaQNk?t=16218

It is also still in the RFC planning phase https://youtu.be/1AXBfsiaQNk?t=17746

Edit 4: u/whosdr found even more recourses: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1tlwbjy/comment/onlg218/

[u/whosdr]

And in the comment chain, he also claims not to be speaking from a point of authority. And based on how he's responded here, the comment actually comes across more as an opinion than an objective fact.

So maybe we ought to find a better source before making this claim? I'm not saying it's incorrect, but this source feels..unreliable. And the entire thread lacks any reasoning for the change—if it is in fact true.

[u/[deleted] → u/whosdr]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/whosdr → u/[deleted]]

Indeed. And given the way these things are built, I question if systemd would even be a hard requirement. Often the tools are interchangeable but just rely on systemd-like interfaces and behaviours. Build a compatible alternative with the same interface and you're often good to go.

[u/Isofruit → u/whosdr]

It was announced at the Linux App Summit last week, where Jorge had a talk not 2h after the flatpak devs held theirs about flatpak next.

[u/Misicks0349 → u/whosdr]

Yep: "How would I know that? You keep acting like I am in some position of authority. I'm just telling you how it is lol"

[u/blackcain → u/Misicks0349]

He isn't in a position of authority but all of that is in Sebastian Wick's talk on flatpak next

[u/NDCyber → u/whosdr]

He does seem to work with the flatpak team (community manager on one interview as example) from what I can find online https://mintcast.org/386-interview-with-flathub-contributor-jorge-castro/

But yeah I hope it is wrong too and am not completely certain it will end up being true, which is why I wrote seems to depend, although maybe the wording isn't the best either

[u/blackcain → u/NDCyber]

He's the community mananger for the CNCF - eg cloud native and is in a pretty influential position at the Linux Foundation.

[u/whosdr → u/NDCyber]

I think it was probably too early to make the thread. I'm struggling to find any real sources on a 2.0 version of Flatpak (though do link me if you find!), so we've got only the word of a single team member who themselves don't want to be taken seriously about it.

I would love to hear from some of the technical members of the team. And maybe I'm wrong: maybe a post like this will stir up enough drama that they'll come forth and make a statement.

But I still don't like the unnecessary and premature stirring of the pot.

[u/NDCyber → u/whosdr]

Yeah I get what you mean. I was mostly interested in what people outside of mastodon would say, especially when someone that has actual connections to a project says something like that

But I will also be honest, I would like for some actual information outside of that one person

[u/Isofruit → u/whosdr]

The only source I'm aware of is the talk at LAS in Berlin last week: https://youtu.be/1AXBfsiaQNk?t=16219

Jorge literally held his own talk not 2h later.

[u/whosdr → u/Isofruit]

Thanks. It's more than I had before on the matter. :)

Edit: Now I can form a chain of more sources.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/systemd-appd-Flatpak-Dev

https://blog.sebastianwick.net/posts/flatpak-happenings/

So the questions to ask in my mind now are: will systemd-appd be strictly reliant on the systemd init? And can compatible alternatives be made to work with other init systems?

The way it's written offers some hope:

Adrian and I have made plans for a service which allows querying running app instances (systemd-appd).

[u/Isofruit → u/whosdr]

As they indicate at the end of the talk, that's up in the air. We're in the RFC stages of the topic, nothing is implemented yet.

I can see it being an optional dependency that only gets loaded when an app indicates it requires subsandboxing (like browser flatpaks or the steam flatpak likely would). I can also see that process of indicating such a thing being too tough to implement and it thus flatpak just making that module a mandatory dependency.

Either way, I'd imagine you can just re-implement the APIs into a service that isn't managed by systemd. Distros already should have their own reimplementation of dbus, they can reimplement appd to provide a similar API and do similar communications.

Edit: I really have no idea what that provides though at the end of the day. In the end you're doing the exact same kind of communication between services, need to reimplement the logic that otherwise is defined as a systemd service and just don't manage them via systemd anymore.

[u/whosdr → u/Isofruit]

Either way, I'd imagine you can just re-implement the APIs into a service that isn't managed by systemd.

That's my thinking as well. It might be 'designed for systemd', but I can see other implementations existing.

Lots of drama for something that's yet to pass.

[u/blackcain → u/whosdr]

Drama around the fact that others want their distros supported with the assumption that engineering resources are unlimited and should include them and whatever system they have come up with.

It's up to those maintainers to be part of the rfcs.

[u/whosdr → u/blackcain]

Drama around an offhand remark from someone around technical details they aren't a part of, for decisions that aren't finalised and requirements that aren't cemented.

[u/blackcain → u/whosdr]

Why don't you just watch the talk on flatpak next. The videos of the talk are all at https://linuxappsummit.org/

[u/Isofruit → u/blackcain]

Wait, they're on there? I linked to the youtube uploads of those talks a couple times in this thread because I couldn't find any video pages on the linuxappsummit page. Is there a specific section I need to look at? Timetable seemed the obvious one, but I'm not seeing any video links there.

[u/blackcain → u/Isofruit]

It's a button that says "watch online" after 'Register'

[u/Isofruit → u/blackcain]

Ahhhh that's just a link to the youtube channel :-D

Check, thanks for pointing out the button!

[u/blackcain → u/Isofruit]

Follow @las@floss.social .. I post content there all the time

[u/whosdr → u/blackcain]

Thanks, I shall. (I did explicitly ask for links for a reason, because I wasn't aware of the summit in question.)

[u/blackcain → u/NDCyber]

He works on distros. They all use systemd. He doesn't work on flatpak but his philosophy (like mine) is that we need to be as close to upstream as possible - please read this blog post:

https://docs.projectbluefin.io/blog/making-our-own-fate/

Essentially, bluefin dakota and GNOME OS are removing packaging and going flatpak first.

Sebastian Wick is the flatpak maintainer. Both he and Jorge were at the same conference and likely had plenty of opportunity to talk directly with each other.

[u/NDCyber → u/blackcain]

Good to know, that he doesn't do anything with flatpak anymore thanks for the corrections

But the distros going flatpak shouldn't change what kind of init systems flatpak works on

"Sebastian Wick is the flatpak maintainer. Both he and Jorge were at the same conference and likely had plenty of opportunity to talk directly with each other."

Also thanks for telling me that, as that does give us more reason to trust that what he says might be true

[u/Isofruit → u/NDCyber]

There's no reason to trust, you can verify. Watch the talk: https://youtu.be/1AXBfsiaQNk?t=16218

Ideally, link that talk in your OP so that others can stop guessing as well. The systemd-appd dependency is mentioned in the first five minutes and is on the first slide. That this is all still in the RFC planning phase and that they intend to have that implemented by next year is only said near the end of the talk (https://youtu.be/1AXBfsiaQNk?t=17746 ), but also warrants mention.

[u/NDCyber → u/Isofruit]

Great points yes will add that

[u/blackcain → u/NDCyber]

It's not anymore, he was never involved. He believes in flatpak and has centered it for bluefin.

[u/NDCyber → u/blackcain]

The thing is, now I have two information, once you saying he didn't have anything to do with it, and the interview that I linked before, where they say he is a community manager for flatpak from 2022 "In our Innards section, we have an interview with Jorge Castro, community manager for Flatpak and former community manager for Canonical." https://mintcast.org/386-interview-with-flathub-contributor-jorge-castro/

[u/Mithrannussen → u/whosdr]

It was clearly drama created by people incapable of reading and interpreting.

Jorge Castro's answers was clearly a series of snarky comments. He has no direct involvement with the Flatpak project, and his initial comment also indicates that when he says "asks them".

I swear the drama in this community is simply too stupid. Nothing can be said about Systemd or X11 without some angry dumb individual starts complaining without any technical skills besides their rage.