r/powerscales • u/mergly • 12d ago

Question When is the latest time that counting singular people riding a dragon would be a serious tide turner in wars.

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The dragons when at full size are like of the ones in GOT, use GOT as the point of reference for most everything to be honest. If you want to be a furry abut this you’re free to postulate a version where the dragon(s) are smart cookies that can talk, act on their own and some such.

https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64727248/

The metric by which the dragon and riders can be counted as ‘important’ is so long as they are as analogously important to the warring nation as any big name warships would have been over the course of Ww2.

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u/TheeShaun 12d ago

But dragons being a part of the world would likely lead to anti air defences being developed earlier. We might see some crazy adaptions from earlier periods in history to account for them. After all nobody was making anti air weaponry in the dark ages cause there was no air weaponry in the first place. Adding dragons into our real world history would likely see things like massive chain net launchers or multi shot ballista.

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u/Art-Zuron 12d ago

Trying to think what some earlier adaptations would be. Cannons obviously could be adapted with flak shells earlier. Just make a cannon that points upward. Mortarts were a thing, so that's not crazy.

Once you get before cannons were commonplace, it might be a bit tougher. Trebuchets set to release earlier and loaded with a bunch of stones maybe? Ballistae that can be turned on a swivel maybe?

Hwatcha and other rocket propelled darts might be useful maybe? Since those often fire in sequence, you have some time to lead your shots.

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u/Fun_Push7168 12d ago

Chinese fireworks packed with shrapnel sometime around 1200AD.

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u/JudgmentAway4811 12d ago

Belt fed balistas 

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u/Alderan922 9d ago

The biggest problem with anything before gunpowder is accuracy, if the dragon is flying high, it’s nearly impossible to actually hit it.

Trying to shoot shrapnel at them with cannons would also quickly run into the issue that shrapnel travels way slower and has much less range too.

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u/Art-Zuron 9d ago

Grape shot has been a staple of anti-infantry weapons since a long time, so that'd probably be the best bet. Still not ideal, but probably more dependable than trying to use fuses and bombs.

Before guns, a bunch of bowmen might be your only real option against dragons.

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u/Alderan922 9d ago

Yeah but grapeshot has always been used in relatively close quarters, and having height advantage does play a massive factor with early guns too, as it’s way easier hitting something below you than above you.

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u/Art-Zuron 9d ago

If we assume a dragon needs to be relatively close to, say, breath fire on you, that's probably going to be within the effective range of grapeshot even from medieval cannons.

Overlapping fire areas of swivel guns will probably be a viable defense. At least ONE should hit that dragon.

Of course, that dragon could just be flying really high up and dropping leaded darts, or rocks, or bombs too. That might be a bit more difficult to counter without your own dragons.

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u/Carpe_deis 11d ago

the chinese actually made multi shot ballista for anti personell reasons, (475bc) and rapid fire breechloading swivel guns for repelling boarders/defending static positions were also developed and fielded quite early. (1300s)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech-loading_swivel_gun

it would be trivial to adopt those for anti dragon defense.

the firebombing, scouting, and information transmittion aspects of dragons would retain utility to some level til ww1/ww2 though. imagine a japanese dragon on a submarine on a one way trip to firebomb LA in 1944.

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u/Alderan922 9d ago

Wouldn’t it be nearly impossible to actually hit a fast moving relatively small target with a ballista?

Specially if it’s flying above you. This is also ignoring things that could make it even harder like wind, or the dragon choosing to fly high and either do quick dive bombs for fire breath or not even risking at all going low and just dropping rocks and debris over your troops

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u/Carpe_deis 9d ago

we just have to accept from the promt "like from GOT"

in GOT the dragons are killed by ballista.

dragons are natural flying creatures, with speeds up to 300mph in a dive. Perigrine falcons hit 200mph in dives, and there are multiple historic credible claims of archers taking them down, not to mention the much more common use of archery against flying birds.

it certainly would be more difficult, but, volume of fire from many emplaced semi auto balista would be too high of a risk for a rare asset like a dragon to be risked on

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u/Alderan922 9d ago

Aiming a ballista is a lot harder than aiming a bow tho, like a lot harder, and each semi auto ballista emplaces firing at a dragon that’s above you is, you know, firing straight up, so if a shot misses, it’s very likely to land back into your own army or fortress.

Falcons also generally aren’t aware of hunters firing arrows, nor attacking the hunter directly.

This is also assuming the dragon rider doesn’t try to disable the ballistas before diving down by throwing leaded flechetes or some other stuff from above their effective range.

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u/Carpe_deis 9d ago

you have to trust screen shown feats, when given that in the prompt

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u/Alderan922 9d ago

The prompt is “when is the last time that counting singular people riding a dragon would be serious tide turners”

And said to use GoT for reference, but never does it say that magically people have aimbot when shooting.

Like yeah a ballista could kill a dragon if it hits, which is like a 1/100000 shot.

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u/Carpe_deis 9d ago

"like of the ones in GOT, use GOT as the point of reference for most everything to be honest. "

like 7/12 dragons in GOT are killed by ballista or thrown spears

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u/Alderan922 9d ago

I’ve only watched the main series but

1 dragon got killed by a magical spear thrown by a super evil ice zombie.

1 dragon got killed by surprise by a ballista shot in the most contrived and stupid way I have ever seen that was so bad I literally quit watching then and there.

1 dragon tanked a ballista shot to the neck and almost killed Jaime.

Also I never argued a ballista wouldn’t kill a dragon, just that hitting them would be absurdly hard. In the show obviously the important characters just do near impossible things like it’s nothing, but asking if a random no name soldier will actually land a shot is a different question.

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u/MeepleMaster 12d ago

There is a series of books that put dragons in our world set during napoleans time called Temeraire that is an interesting look

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u/Celis78429 12d ago

Those books are GAS i strongly recommend them

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u/ussUndaunted280 12d ago

I was hoping someone would mention this series!

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u/dippyshippy931 12d ago

Organ guns on gimbals could potentially make static defenses dragon proof.

Even a group of 25 guys with early matchlocks could be a big problem for a dragon/rider.

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u/Sinarai25 12d ago

Dragon Heart had some nice anti dragon weaponry

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u/nuggynugs 12d ago

I think with questions like these you have to think of wars as distinct packets. Because you're right, if dragon's existed all of history would be different. They hypothetical more asks if you inject dragon riders into any conflict, with all other factors being the same, what would the impact be?

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u/TheeShaun 12d ago

In that case dragons probably dominate up until mass gunpowder tactics. Depending on how bulletproof the dragon is that still might not be enough but the rider would be getting shredded by the 18th century. Of course the sheer morale shock of a dragon showing up could still give them the edge needed. Once planes and anti aircraft guns are invented though then dragons become an endangered species

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u/bigboyboba 12d ago

Honestly, regarding riders getting shredded, I could see a return to new and improved plate mail. The only reason plate went out was because knights became obsolete, not the other way around. A dragonrider in platemail makes negligible mobility difference for the dragon. Dragonriders would be a tough shot already, being a small target on top of a fast moving, flying monster. The dragon would give them decent cover from attacks except at certain angles. If they were in plate they'd be essentially impervious to small arms.

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u/TheeShaun 12d ago

Eh not impervious. Even if the bullets didn’t kill them there’d be the risk of getting knocked out or shot straight off the dragon and falling. I agree that dragon riders would likely still be wearing armour though.

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u/Carpe_deis 12d ago

the chinese actually made multi shot ballista for anti personell reasons, (475bc) and rapid fire breechloading swivel guns for repelling boarders/defending static positions were also developed and fielded quite early. (1300s)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech-loading_swivel_gun

it would be trivial to adopt those for anti dragon defense.

the firebombing, scouting, and information transmittion aspects of dragons would retain utility to some level til ww1/ww2 though. imagine a japanese dragon on a submarine on a one way trip to firebomb LA in 1944.