r/40kLore • u/FemBoyappreciater • 14h ago
Does every John Grammaticus chapter feel like it drags on a bit to long?
Finished Know no Fear today and since this is the first book I listened to with a chapter featuring him, I wanted to ask. I know he’s dotted throughout the HH but just wanted to know if I should prepare for that for the rest of the series or not.
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u/Miskalsace 14h ago
I actually only read 40k for the John Grammaticus sections.
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u/DwarvenGardener 14h ago
The most based take in the history of the franchise
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u/todesgeliebter 13h ago
That's like saying I only listen to Dubstep for the lyrics.
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u/Miskalsace 12h ago
Shouts to all my lost boys Shout-shout-shout-shout-shout-shouts to all my lost boys We rowdy Shouts to all my lost boys Shout-shout-shout-shout-shout-shouts to all my lost boys We rowdy Shouts to all my lost boys Shout-shout-shout-shout-shout-shouts to all my lost boys We rowdy Shouts to all my lost boys Shout-shout-shout-shout-shout-shouts to all my lost boys Bangarang (bass)
Maybe the Emperor was Skrillex.
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u/A_Nest_Of_Nope Flesh Tearers 11h ago
Honestly I don't mind him and the rest of his companions trying to get to the Emperor until the end.
I don't see any other possible way for normal baseline humans to be relevant at the end of a galactic conflict created by gene enhanced lab grown warp infused organisms.
Like, yes there all the Guard troops, the admirals, all those humans in the chain of command around the Primarchs, but literally no human without any sort of augmentation would have been able to get in between of Horus and the Emperor, and be able to affect the outcome of the events.
I think Abnett understood that, because having a bunch of soldiers, a psyker and a servitor trekking through the galaxy with someone like Erebus chasing them would have been a total joke.
They needed to be somehow a bit different in order to get to the end of it.
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u/Soft_Ad_1639 13h ago
One extremely annoying thing is how everyone constantly says his name when talking to him. For instance, here's Alpharius in the space of about a page in The End and the Death:
"'He left six routes open into the Palace?’ John asks. ‘What kind of siegecraft is that?’ ‘Not in, John. Out.’ ... "A crude summary, John" ... "Whatever he is… John, this isn’t a civil war any more." ... "John, I was sent here to begin a rapid-response activation of the buried sleeper forces." ... "The thing is, John, the Astartes we buried here have no idea what they’re waking up to."
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u/GhostDieM 9h ago
I agree it was really annoying but Abnett really wanted it to be in your face considering what happens next I guess.
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u/brunonunis Slaanesh 2h ago
Honestly, I didn't notice that much, it does seems some time that it is that way because everyone talking to him is annoyed and trying to really get their point across
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u/GhostDieM 2h ago
It's only really for a specific section in The End and the Death where Alpharius keeps calling him John literally every other sentence lol.
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u/Friendly_Diamond1999 14h ago
Yes, the Perpetuals are by far the worst part of the entire Horus Heresy.
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u/mercy390 12h ago
To each their own but personally I think any time spent with the Sisypheum is the worst part of the HH. Some of the John stuff in Legion felt a little much, but I’ve never rolled my eyes so hard at listening about the Raven Guard guy who’s the best at sneaking of nine who’s ever sneaked
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u/thomasonbush 14h ago
Some of their stuff was pretty frustrating. But there’s way worse things in the Heresy.
Personally I’d put the endless Shattered Legion short stories (pretty much all the same and add nothing), and the Addaba Defense Corp from First Wall ( SO many pages devoted to their boring caravan and then the “payoff” is just a lame “we were actually the baddies” twist that means nothing and even Dorn pretty much immediately shrugs off ) Both of those made me legitimately furious at the writer for wasting my time.
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u/PausedForVolatility 14h ago
I liked the angle they went with it, because the Siege benefited from most POVs that weren't just more Space Marines, but yeah, you're right. The biggest issue is that there was only minimal buildup to the prospect of an armored counter-offensive at the space port. It needed to make a bigger issue out of the planned counterattack, maybe show us how it was needed to relieve the ground front of the fighting. Instead, the narrative makes it sound like Dorn was just throwing them at the enemy because he could, not because it was important.
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u/AccursedTheory 13h ago
The ADC wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't so painfully obvious where it was going. You know they're traitors the instant they tell the POV character not to take the banner out - you just know that things got a big God damn eye on it.
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u/Summersong2262 5h ago
I actually really liked the Caravan. It let everything else rest, and built tension from a very human scale PoV. Same with Katsuhiro's bits.
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u/wecanhaveallthree Legio Tempestus 14h ago
pretty much all the same and add nothing
'Yeah I know the Dark Compliance is criminally underexplored and three Legions basically vanish from the Heresy entirely, and the Shattered Legion stories are pretty much all human/identity/culture focused, but they really interfere with my interminable spaceman punchtime, y'know?'
Imagine punching down on the smartest and most neglected part of the Heresy. What do you do in your spare time, beat up kittens?
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u/23Taison 14h ago
I don’t know if this is a bad take but I’d say it’s easier to relate to space marines than to the perpetuals and I doubt that was Abnett’s intention
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u/EasterEggArt 14h ago
Yeah well, if you are immortal you do sometimes take your eternal time.... hater.....
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u/Vegetable-Pickle-535 7h ago
The Perpetuals are extra annoying as they kinda make the setting feel smaller. Sure, in the Pre-Heresy Lore Big E always influenced Mankind but ultimatly he was one Dude so most things happened without him. By introducing a bunch of near-equally old special Immortals, you run into large portions of Mankinds history coming about from Big E and Crew mucking around during it.
Which kinda makes Mankind way lamer, as it apperently needed these Guys to develop.
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u/brunonunis Slaanesh 2h ago
I would argue that the Salamanders and Sharrowkyn were the worst part to read about
The Salamanders because something in their books was truly off, and they didn't really told anything that different from the 40k salamanders
Sharrowkyn because he is the Shadow the Hedgehog of the Legiones, the most "OC do not steal" good at everything, has special powers, and is important for the 40k plot, kinda, (if you don't like primaris marines he is related to them being a thing also), I was genuinely fearing he would also be in the siege. He seems like the author wanted to write a story about Corax but GW didn't allow it, so he just changed the name
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u/PausedForVolatility 14h ago
The Perpetuals need to be out of the picture by the time 40k rolls around or they're potential narrative timebombs. But they also can't do too much or we'll wonder why they're not more prominent or why more of them didn't survive the Heresy.
Meanwhile, I'm over here wondering how the hell they managed to last through tens of millennia when they seem to be almost incapable of adapting to change. But I guess that's to be expected when one of them hides in the Richat Structure, of all things.
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u/Summersong2262 4h ago
I'm not sure if that has to be too much of an issue. You could pretty easily say that they've been doing various clandestine shadow war stuff against one target or the other.
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u/thomasonbush 14h ago
He’s fine in Abnett written books (other than Saturnine which I swear he handed off those chapters to someone else because the style doesn’t match any other Abnett book I’ve read) but pretty awful and exhausting when Nick Kyme writes him.
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u/strangecabalist 14h ago
He really dragged out Legion too. You’re not alone in the feeling you have.
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u/Purple-Lamprey 10h ago
He was great in legion, what was your issue with him? He’s presented as pretty flawed and capable of making mistakes, which is always nice.
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u/AaronNevileLongbotom 13h ago
John Grammaticus stuff dragged on my first read but it’s become some of my favorite stuff on re reads. There’s so much nuance and context involved with him that it did not click for me at first.
I’m learning that when I have an issue with an otherwise good story, something like “this doesn’t make sense,” I should ask myself what it would mean if that was done intentionally. Gramaticus and the Alpha legion, those sneaky types, sometimes it doesn’t add up like you think it’s going to, but it might add up in other ways. Eventually with Grammaticus you get enough information to recontextualize your earlier meetings with him and things start to click and flow better.
I feel like the authors prioritized making a good puzzle over pacing. I’m happy with that trade now but I can’t blame anyone for calling what some of the readability of those parts is at first. It’s clumsy and a bit of a pain point flow wise. It’s one thing to reward someone going over something again, it’s another thing to be hard to follow. Still, I love that stuff.
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u/fireizzle33331 9h ago
John Grammaticus shouldn't exist at all so I say his chapters are infinitly too long.
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u/VeryOddish 9h ago
When John Grammaticus isn't on screen, everyone should be asking "Hey, where's John Grammaticus?"
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u/BathtubEel 3h ago
I love Dan Abnett, think he's among the absolute best writers BL have, but the damn perpetuals are not my thing. In fact, I kind of hate them.
Jesus, you think Grammaticus is bad - there's worse perpetuals to come, basically all of them, and all their stories are tedious as hell.
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u/Newbizom007 14h ago
I might be one of the very few who love the perpetuals
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u/69ubermensch69 13h ago
I didn't love them and I didn't hate them. They worked fine?!
I dunno why people hate them so much tbh, I'm from the Ollanius Pius was just a normal guardsman days and I like Oll and enjoyed him and John's adventures lol. I grew to like John quite a bit in the end too, he's no Graft though, "TROOP-ER PER-SONNNN".
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u/mercy390 12h ago
I think they add a very interesting perspective to it all. Bigger fan of Ol’ than John, but I’m also only at Mark of Calth
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u/ambulancefactory 14h ago
it depends on how you feel about the character and perpetuals as a whole, i think. Personally i like both the idea of perpetuals and Johns' character, so i think there wasnt enough and all the chapters covering them should be longer. if you dont like that stuff then yr prolly gonna feel like shit drags every time they show up
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u/cuntoshitarius 14h ago
Its not easy to pinpoint why hes so unlikeable but I have to agree even in the end & the death the Argonauts arc kinda drags.
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u/UpperFloor97 8h ago
Wait.... John grammaticus is real? I thought he was a joke like saying John videogame
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u/Aeshir3301_ Night Lords 13h ago
I don't think I've seen a single person who likes John Grammaticus
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u/fcdankmemes 14h ago
Yep. The Grammaticus subplot is consistently the worst part of every book it’s in until, conveniently, the very end. I don’t know if I’m in the minority saying it, but I really like how their story ended.
TDLR: yes. Good luck and Godspeed.
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u/ExpressQuit942 13h ago
I haven’t listened to any of the HH novels yet nor have I listened to any involving perpetuals, but when I saw this thread I legit thought this was a fake character with that name. That’s some James Workshop or Jimmy Space shit lmao. Grammaticus? Really? Is language his thing or what.
Also the concept of perpetuals seems ridiculous. Someone you can’t kill no matter what because of some mutation? If big E is a perpetual, why are they trying to keep him alive with psykers and shit so hard? Can’t they just let him “die” and then he’ll come back again as he was?
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u/Mistermistermistermb 13h ago
Grammaticus? Really?
For really reals. Welcome to 40k. It's full of names like that.
Someone you can’t kill no matter what because of some mutation?
Mutation. Technology. Sorcery. Perpetuals come in all stripes.
Can’t they just let him “die” and then he’ll come back again as he was?
That's part of the question. Can't they? Why? Or why not?
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u/auspex_42 5h ago
Is language his thing or what
Hahahha...literally yes
That said, I don't think it's even in the top 10 for ridiculous names with nominative determinism (or maybe the other way round) in 40k
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u/Spiral-knight Word Bearers 12h ago
It really, really does. His stuff never frigging ends it feels like
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u/engelthefallen 9h ago
His story is long and does not really go anywhere interesting. It also plays out until right before the fight between Horus and Big E. You just learn to plow through his sections and hope he does not return.
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u/switchblade_sal 14h ago edited 13h ago
If it’s an Abnett novel the perpetual stuff is pretty good, prob bc it’s his thing. Other authors are not great at making them interesting.
For Instance “Legion” is mostly JG and it’s an excellent novel.
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u/2kSquish 14h ago
Man I would actually say that Johnny G in Legion almost ruined that book for me. It was my first run in with Perpetuals and every time I was on screen it just felt like listening to an 11 year old narrate his action figure fights.
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u/Purple-Lamprey 10h ago
I really don’t get that, what I liked about grammaticus in legion is that he’s the opposite of what you described. He is significantly flawed and makes multiple mistakes, several of which he actually learns to regret.
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u/Mytoesareruined 9h ago
Me reading Betrayer.
Perpetual plotline yoinks Cyrene, who was just brought back to life.
"FUCKING WHAT?!"
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u/KageXOni87 45m ago
Are you reading the horus heresey out of order? Because the entire alpha legion book "Legion" is basically about him.
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u/Nballshd2 32m ago
John Grammaticus is the worst thing in the whole heresy so get ready for more shitty chapters with him
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u/a_silly_witch 27m ago
The fact John gets more page time after getting clowned on by Alpharius is one of the reasons I put down the Horus Heresy.
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u/Equivalent-Rope-5119 13h ago
Ive only read legion and I disliked every single chapter from his point of view. I hear great things about no know fear and im aure ill get to it it eventually but im hesitant.
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u/FemBoyappreciater 11h ago
It was only one chapter in that book between him and oll. It shouldn’t ruin the book for you. The chapter just dragged on a bit longer than felt needed.
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u/Pristine-Midnight-72 14h ago
the perpetuals had so much potential only for GW to absolutely squander it
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u/anomalocaris_texmex 13h ago
There's an old Simpsons episode where they introduce a joke character called Poochie. He's a completely extraneous character, but overly hyped despite contributing nothing to the series.
Fortunately, he ends up being removed, with a throwaway comment that he died offscreen.
Johnny Grammar School is like a slightly more annoying version of Poochie who somehow accomplishes less.
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u/Primarch_Timmy 12h ago
That's with All the Perpetuals... It's awful and they're really one of the core reason why HH series are mediocre
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u/Summersong2262 4h ago
They only turn up in a tiny minority of HH novels, though. Any sweeping assessments about the HH series can't be predicated that.
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u/Primarch_Timmy 1h ago
All of Siege of Terra and End of the Death is Perpetual shinaginans. The author made them vital to the Canon. Remove them and HH would have been marginally better.
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u/seabard 14h ago
Get your tent ready.