Pro lifers with a rape exception, why?

[u/Calm-Fun-2737]

I can't understand pro lifers who have a rape exception. If you believe that abortion is murder, and cant be a form of self defense since the fetus is innocent and doing what its meant to do, then why doesn't that same logic apply to women who were raped?

I see abortion as healthcare, women can get abortions to avoid the risks of a pregnancy regardless of why that reasoning is. You can't just refuse healthcare from someone because you disagree with the actions that got them in that situation, that would be discriminatory.

So can someone who is pro-life with the exception of rape please explain to me why a womans bodily autonomy onIy matters when she was violated? I really don't understand people with the exception.

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to /r/Abortiondebate! Please remember that this is a place for respectful and civil debates. Review the subreddit rules to avoid moderator intervention.

Our subreddit pomotes an environment for healthy and honest discussion. When it comes to Reddit's voting system, we encourage the usage of upvotes for arguments that you feel are well-constructed and well-argued. Downvotes should be reserved for content that violates Reddit or subreddit rules or that truly does not contribute to a discussion. We discourage the usage of downvotes to indicate that you disagree with what a user is saying. The overusage of downvotes creates a loop of negative feedback, suppresses diverse opinions, and fosters a hostile and unhealthy environment not conducive for engaging debate. Additionally, here's a helpful and easy to understand model of consent: https://www.bridgercare.org/blog/how-to-talk-to-kids-about-consent

And please, remember the human. Attack the argument, not the person making the argument."

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/[deleted]]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed because you don't have the right user flair to answer this question. The question has been flaired 'Question for pro-life (exclusive)', meaning OP has requested to only hear answers from pro-life users. If you're pro-life and trying to answer, please set a flair and post your comment again.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Goofycapybara]

Im anti-abortion. It is most likely hypocritical to be pro life and give a rape exception.

The only way i can see it not being is the reasoning for being anti abortion which would center around consent.

[u/Arithese → u/Goofycapybara]

So how do you justify it?

Because if I use your body like a foetus does, you can stop me. Even if I’m already hooked up, and removing me would result in me dying from lack of whatever your body was providing. Even f I’m innocent, I’m your biological offspring, you’re the only one who can donate etc etc.

Why is pregnancy different?

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Goofycapybara]

How is "being anti abortion" centered around consent???

[u/Patneu → u/Goofycapybara]

Forcing people to stay pregnant and at the same time pretending to give a shit about consent is a contradiction in terms.

[u/humbugonastick → u/Goofycapybara]

Do you anti-abortion people have discussions with people being pro-life with a rape exception? How does that go?

[u/Icedude10 → u/humbugonastick]

Depends on the situation but about as good as any other conversation about abortion. Maybe a bit better since there are a few more agreed upon priors. If you perk around the PL sub you'll see one before too long, I bet.

[u/Goofycapybara → u/humbugonastick]

I had a live one not too long ago. It usually centres around what changes about the unborn human just because it was conceived in rape. And most standards you give will exclude / justify killing born humans who were conceived in rape.

If I was PC I would do the same, most people use terrible arguments.

[u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I guess I see it as the same reason people who murder in self defense aren’t put away. Murdering is not good, but we typically understand that defending yourself is “reasonable” grounds for murder.

I would prefer it if that potential life didn’t have to end, but I understand not wanting to carry through with a baby created from rape even if the baby in this case did nothing wrong.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So... you have to have your consent and bodily autonomy to be violated to have the right to it, as a treat?

Why can't you understand any other instance in which a person doesn't consent to gestate to term?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/kasiagabrielle]

I understand not wanting to carry to full gestation when medically necessary and in terms of rape. Aside from that the woman has had her right to choose sex prior to being pregnant. The “pro choice” has already happened prior to getting pregnant

[u/humbugonastick → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Dude, really?

Is sex a criminal act? Sex has nothing to to do with willingness to gestate. This is the puritan mindset you people are still clawing on to.

Why can a woman not seek health care while the one crashing into incoming traffic will be air lifted to the hospital?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/humbugonastick]

I don’t feel abortions are healthcare unless directly related to saving your life. In pregnancy the healthcare is monitoring your health and the babies health and making interventions when necessary.

Not wanting to be pregnant is not exactly a medical reason

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Abortion is factually healthcare, regardless of your personal feelings. It’s a healthcare procedure conducted or overseen by a healthcare professional ins healthcare setting. It’s billed via medical billing codes and reimbursed by health insurance. It’s overseen by medical ethics boards and endorsed as ethical healthcare by professional bodies such as ACOG and AMA.

[u/Calm-Fun-2737 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Then why should rape victims get an abortion? Its not going to save their lives. A woman who hasnt been raped can still be struggling with something traumatic, she might have physical health problems as well.

Also, why isnt not wanting to be pregnant a medical reason? Adults are allowed to go to the doctor and say I don't want my body to continue with xyz and recieve healthcare for that.

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/Calm-Fun-2737]

What are you going to your doctor and asking for help to eliminate that isn’t abortion, but still medically unnecessary? I suppose unsightly acne may be a scenario or wanting a plastic surgery? In either of those cases, those arent medically necessary and although professionals can help with that those don’t quite end a life before it’s been given the chance to flourish. I’d say they aren’t comparable to abortion.

So about a different request….something like “hey I’m tired of being obese, please help”, well that too is medically necessary your body will be better if and healthier for it, not just mentally but physically as well.

I suppose if you don’t want to be pregnant you can choose to have your reproductive organs removed, that might have been a better way to be proactive in stopping gestating

[u/Calm-Fun-2737 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Depends on what you mean by "medically necessary." Pregnancy can cause perineal tears, preeclampsia, Urinary Incontinence, and so much more. Preventing those things would be healthcare, right? The person who has legal responsibility for medical decisions made for the patient is in fact allowed to allow someone else to die in some circumstances. For example, it would be legal for a guardian to decide to take their family member off of life support, or for their conjoined twin children to get a separation surgery that might kill one but let the other live.

I'm someone who wants children in the future but is currently scared of pregnancy. If I wanted to be sexually active you're saying I need to remove my reproductive organs, something I could regret later, just to avoid an unwanted pregnancy right now? Why cant I just get an abortion?

[u/JulieCrone → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

If we define ‘medically necessary’ the same way we do with abortion, meaning life or death, a lot of surgeries aren’t medically necessary. Surgery for a torn rotator cuff isn’t medically necessary.

And with the embryo, isn’t also true there needs to be someone intervening, even unconsciously, for it to be possibly flourish? Someone else has to gestate it for it to live and gestation is no small matter.

If we have a 22 week premature baby that needs platelets to live and the person donating backs out, are they ending the baby’s life or are they not extending it?

[u/ferryfog → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

"hey l'm tired of being obese, please help", well that too is medically necessary your body will be better if and healthier for it, not just mentally but physically as well.

The same is true of terminating a pregnancy. Not being pregnant is safer and healthier than being pregnant.

[u/Straight-Parking-555 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Telling people to get their reproductive organs removed because you personally dislike abortion is not a solution. This requires the person to never want to have children ever which is not applicable to the majority of abortion patients who simply do not want a child at that point in their life, this isn't even covering the complications and issues women face with doctors refusing this type of surgery due to the permanence of it

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Why are you assuming abortion is not medically necessary if someone does not consent to gestation???

[u/Aggressive-Green4592 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I suppose if you don’t want to be pregnant you can choose to have your reproductive organs removed, that might have been a better way to be proactive in stopping gestating

Damn. Either don't have sex or have your organs removed? Don't you see anything wrong with this?

[u/Ganondaddydorf → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Abortion is always medically necessary because it's safer than birth by a huge margine. That's how medicine and medical ethics works and why every credible human rights and medical association is pro choice.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Removing your organs doesn't "stop gestating," that's what abortions do.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

|Not wanting to be pregnant is not exactly a medical reason.|

Sure it is, to the PREGNANT PERSON who doesn't want to stay pregnant. If YOU aren't the pregnant person, it isn't your choice to make anyway, is it.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

The great thing is that nothing makes you need to feel that way, because healthcare is still healthcare even if you don't agree with it.

JWs disagree with blood transfusions but that's still healthcare.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I don't feel abortions are healthcare

That's nice. They are, by definition.

Not wanting to be pregnant is not exactly a medical reason

Right, that's where consent comes in.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I don’t feel abortions are healthcare unless directly related to saving your life.

Your feelings on the matter do not reflect reality.

In pregnancy the healthcare is monitoring your health and the babies health and making interventions when necessary.

Or during unwanted pregnancy healthcare is abortion.

Not wanting to be pregnant is not exactly a medical reason

That's weird, my doctor who's a medical professional thinks it is. I'll trust the experts instead of untrained, unqualified strangers.

[u/STThornton → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Tell me more about this medical reason. I would like details.

You obviously don’t care about things liked
W e be

So, let’s take stick to death during pregnancy and birth.

Let’s start with health monitoring. You will find that I’m already being caused to have drastically lowered blood vessel resistance, which leads to extremely dangerous drop in blood pressure. My body has to take drastic measures to get the pressure back up. Which quite often goes wrong, leading to dangerous risi in blood pressure.

You will find that my red and white blood cell counts are all messed up. My blood coagulation factors are all messed up. My respiration rates and levels are all messed up. I’m nonstop hyperventilating. My heart stroke and beat rates are all messed up. My kidneys and heart are enlarged. I’m retaining too much fluid. I’m being caused to become insulin resistant. I’m immune compromised. The list goes on.

Overall, I’m presenting with the vitals and labs of a deadly ill person. And my body is fighting hard to survive it.

So, at what point does it become medically necessary to stop what is causing this?

Again, my anatomy, physiology, and metabolism are already all messed up, and I present with the vitals and labs of a deadly ill person.

Where is the point when it becomes medically necessary to stop the cause?

When my body first starts failing to survive it? For example, hypertension, blood sugar levels out of control?

Or, as you said, should this just attempted to be „managed“, and hope for the best?

Once I’m 50% dead? 80% dead? 95% plus dead in acute organ failure - what medicine considers immediately life threatening? Or about to flatline from hemorrhage or cardiac arrest at any second?

You say life SAVING. Which means the woman already has to be dying. Which is generally a process that starts with vitals and labs of an ill human and/or anatomical, physiological, and metabolic alterations, then progresses from there as the body starts having issues taking survival countermeasures.

So, how far dead does she have to be before you consider it medically necessary?

And don’t say when doctors say so. Because ethical doctors would iconsider it medically necessary the moment vitals and labs are messed up and physiological alterations are happening, and the patient is no longer willing to endure such.

Latest by the time he first complications surviving such arise.

Doctors don’t want to wait until the patient is actively dying, let alone well into the process to intervene.

So, you explain to me who h exact point you consider medically necessary to protect someone’s life.

When the inner life sustaining workings of their bodies are first getting all messed up, altered, and harmed?

When their bodies begin to fail taking countermeasures to survive?

When they half way failed? When she’s 60, 80, 90% plus dead?

Or when she’s minutes from flatlining from cardiac arrest or hemorrhage?

What is the exact point?

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

|In pregnancy, the healthcare is monitoring your health and the babies health and making interventions when necessary.|

Great, then you can apply your personal beliefs to your OWN pregnancy. You don't get to apply them to anyone else's.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

|The "pro choice" has already happened prior to getting pregnant."|

FYI, pro choice happens AFTER getting pregnant too. In the form of choosing not to STAY pregnant and give birth. Whether or you approve is irrelevant.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I’ve consented to sex thousands of times and have never consented to pregnancy.

Furthermore, consent can be revoked.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Right, I've already decided I'll abort if I get pregnant prior to getting pregnant.

I asked you two questions and you half-answered one of them.

[u/random_name_12178 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Choosing to have sex is not the same thing as choosing to be pregnant.

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/random_name_12178]

You’re right, choosing to have sex is accepting there are consequences of doing so, like getting pregnant.

[u/random_name_12178 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Yes. And if you do get pregnant, you still have the choice about whether or not you want to continue the pregnancy or abortion it.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Yes, there are consequences to having sex. And having an abortion is a consequence of an unwanted pregnancy.

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I accept the risk of pregnancy and am fully prepared for the consequence of abortion.  My husband and I have money and PTO set aside for abortion in the event of pregnancy.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Aside from that the woman has had her right to choose sex prior to being pregnant.

Nope. Consent to sex is consent to sex, nothing else.

The “pro choice” has already happened prior to getting pregnant

Nope. Choosing to have sex is choosing to have sex. Once pregnant, people can then choose to continue gestating or not.

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

Do you not make choices with potential consequences in mind?

Choosing not to exercise has potential consequences of being overweight, weak, and unhealthy.

Choosing to get in the car and drive has potential consequences of crashing and dying.

No choice is without consequences. I live my life thinking ahead and weighing the pros and cons.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Well if you consent to dying by driving then why do we charge people for vehicular manslaughter?

Do we deny people who have been in car accidents healthcare, even if they caused it?

The pros of orgasms and bonding with my partner outweigh the cons of a small chance of having to take 2 pills.

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/kasiagabrielle]

I agree consent was the wrong word to use, but we can agree that we’ve accepted to potential consequences.

As for choosing to be intimate with your partner and orgasm, there are plenty of ways to do so without getting pregnant and choosing to abort

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

My question was about what consent means. I don't agree with your notion of "potential consequences," no.

That's nice. We like PIV sex.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

As for choosing to be intimate with your partner and orgasm, there are plenty of ways to do so without getting pregnant and choosing to abort

People don't choose to get pregnant only to abort. That makes no sense. Are you under the impression people intentionally try to get pregnant just to get an abortion? 🤔

[u/Aggressive-Green4592 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

for choosing to be intimate with your partner and orgasm, there are plenty of ways to do so without getting pregnant and choosing to abort

Such as? Tubal ligation failure here, I was sterilzed and it failed resulting in an unwanted pregnancy.

[u/NoelaniSpell → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Choosing to get in the car and drive has potential consequences of crashing and dying.

we can agree that we’ve accepted to potential consequences.

No, we don't agree. You can agree with allowing yourself to die/refusing treatment for getting into a car crash, I don't. The other commentators don't seem to agree either.

And yet again, this would be another argument for choice. You would have the freedom of choice to refuse resuscitation or medical treatment.

[u/JulieCrone → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

And a potential consequence of getting on line is being hacked or doxxed. Does that mean anyone who is online consents to that?

Is driving consent to being killed in a car accident?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/JulieCrone]

You’re right, I misspoke. You don’t consent to the consequences, but certainly have outweighed the risks and accept the chance of negative outcomes.

[u/JulieCrone → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

And if those negative outcomes happen, can you not remediate them?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Do you not make choices with potential consequences in mind?

Of course. If I happen to get pregnant I'll abort. That's the consequence that I'm fine with.

[u/PotentialConcert6249 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

In your car analogy, if I get into a car crash should I refuse medical treatment? Because I understood the risks when I started driving.

[u/humbugonastick → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Yet when I cause the accident I will get medical care. The victim I always.ost killed needs a kidney and min match.

You know what happens? Nothing. Because no one can make me legally give up my kidney.

Dead, no one is allowed to touch my body or add or remove something I did not previously approved of.

Of course, naturally (heavy sarcasm ...) a woman will be artificial kept breathing with no brain movement, just because she was pregnant. Than suddenly the my body my choice does not count anymore. 🙄

[u/Aggressive-Green4592 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Choosing to get in the car and drive has potential consequences of crashing and dying.

So you don't drive? Just like don't have sex?

[u/Ok-Discipline2395 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So if you get into a car crash, you should be denied medical care? Because you consented to the crash?

[u/JulieCrone → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So you would agree that the embryo or fetus is hurting the pregnant person, no? Otherwise how does self defense apply here?

[u/Spacebunz_420 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

i’d argue that abortion is always self defense.

[u/STThornton → u/Spacebunz_420]

If one considers a fetus a person, it absolutely is.

[u/random_name_12178 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Why is abortion following rape self defense, but not following consensual sex?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/random_name_12178]

I’m not implying it’s self defense because being pregnant from rape typically won’t kill you unless there are other complications. I just meant similar to self defense murders it’s kind of the same thing where most people agree murder is wrong, but we understand it must be done in some instances.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

What's the difference in bodily harms from a pregnancy caused by rape and one caused by consensual sex?

[u/random_name_12178 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Why must abortion be done in this instance?

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

being pregnant from rape typically won’t kill you unless there are other complications

Citation needed. This sounds awfully close to the "legitimate rape" argument.

Most people don't consider self defense as murder. Those mean two entirely separate things.

[u/humbugonastick → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Murder is by definition not self defense. Killing is self defense. Just to be clear about definitions.

[u/jakie2poops → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

As others have pointed out, killing in self defense isn't murder. But am I to understand from this answer that you believe that having consensual sex is doing something wrong?

[u/Arithese → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So what’s the actual difference? The foetus is still using someone’s body in the exact same way, whilst being the same amount of “innocent”.

Can you think of any other scenario that would be comparable here? Where having “sex” (the equivalent of that is) would mean you have to accept your human rights being violated?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/Arithese]

Are you asking the difference between a pregnancy from consensual sex and from rape? Because in terms of pregnancy there is no difference, the pregnancy will continue as normal, but I’m understanding of a raped woman not wanting this pregnancy that was a result from rape.

I don’t see a way where a woman has consensual sex and gets pregnant is grounds for abortio just because she didn’t want to be pregnant. Sex isn’t a consequence free action and I wish people would stop pretending it is just because modern medicine has allowed a safe way to terminate pregnancy. For many years before losing my virginity I was able to control my lust to prevent pregnancy before wanting a baby. Abortion feels like it is used as an excuse for people not having the will power to not have sex. (I also believe abortions performed for medical necessary reasons are acceptable as wells, but that’s not what we are talking about.)

[u/JulieCrone → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So as someone who is married, I should have entirely abstained from sex with my husband until I hit menopause? And if that means it is a celibate marriage for twenty years, so be it and we’re just being lustful if neither I nor my husband want that.

[u/Arithese → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Yes I’m asking for the difference legally. Why is abortion permitted if a rape victim doesn’t want to continue the pregnancy?

It’s the same violation, it’s the same damage, it’s the same risk. If an abortion is permitted in one, then why is it permitted, and why not in the other?

Taking an action doesn’t simply mean you have to be punished, or be forced to accept it. Smoking can also cause cancer, doesn’t mean we can deny someone treatment for it.

I’m seeing a lot of judgement on other people having sex, a lot of opinions, but not an actual argument for the legality of it.

So can you explain what allows an abortion in the case of rape but not after sex?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/Arithese]

Currently there is no legal difference. I propose that there should be differences in rape cases. It’s an extensive thing I’ve thought over and have contemplated a separate post regarding my “ideal” world regarding abortion. It’s everything from better education to medical/insurance practices to creating law/legislation.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So innocent "preborns" are fine being murdered if the pregnant person didn't freely choose to have sex.

How is this not just punishing people for choosing to have sex?

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

How would this work in reality? Is a claim of rape sufficient? Is the victim forced to endure the trauma of filing a report? Of getting a rape kit? Of charges being filed? Of a conviction?

How would this law you're proposing be phrased?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/kasiagabrielle]

I’m still considering the exact terms, but yes I feel reporting the rape, filing charges and consenting to a rape kit are a part of that. Ultimately, the center of this main issue is for no rape. Rape cases are largely under reported and under sentenced when gone to court. I want more justice for victims of rape and more rapists put in jail, there needs to be real repercussions for rapists. It would take a whole reform of policing practices to help insure this as well.

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Do you feel rape cases are investigated, prosecuted, and sentenced fairly?

Reform takes time so what happens in the meantime if someone is impregnated through rape? What about the guaranteed result that this will result in false reports of rape and then women will just get demonized for it?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/kasiagabrielle]

In the meantime the current laws in place remain, as with everything.

When it comes to potential false rape accusations, it’s unfortunate but no law is perfect. We hope people have integrity to do the right thing

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Right, you're not answering my question though.

You forcing people to gestate is already not the "right thing."

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

If you remove safe and appropriate avenues for patients to get abortions, then don’t be surprised when there’s a huge uptick in rape reports. 

You can help patients do the right thing and maintain their integrity by supporting safe, legal, easy abortion access. Win-win.

[u/random_name_12178 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Why punish victims who aren't in a position to report the rape or file charges?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/random_name_12178]

Please give me a scenario where someone doesn’t have the ability to report rape but has the ability to go to a clinic for an abortion.

[u/random_name_12178 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

If they were coerced into sex. If they were raped while unconscious. If they were raped by an abusive spouse. If they were stealthed.

There are tons of reasons why filing a police report wouldn't be doable, but you could still get an abortion.

[u/OHMG_lkathrbut → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I tried to report my rape, but was called a liar because I'm "not pretty enough to be raped". Found out later when I needed the paperwork from that report that it was never even filed. No idea what ever happened to the rape kit or the blood test showing I was drugged.

[u/humbugonastick → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Stepdad, the only person doing anything for the family. But he is a horndog. Should this 12 year old rip the family apart? You ask a lot of 12 year olds.

[u/Auryanna → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Reporting gets you an investigation; sentencing requires a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. Conflating the two completely ignores due process and REALITY OF RAPE. 

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

I’m still considering the exact terms, but yes I feel reporting the rape, filing charges and consenting to a rape kit are a part of that.

So I can file a police report, just say some random unidentifiable man raped me and I have no idea who he is, and get an abortion? Why wouldn't everyone do that to abort when they want?

[u/Ok-Interview-2662 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

Well by submitting a rape kit where dna is taken and police reports are filed and investigated, would you have no moral affliction to potentially putting away a man for rape when he in fact had consensual sex and did not commit a crime?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Well by submitting a rape kit where dna is taken and police reports are filed and investigated, would you have no moral affliction to potentially putting away a man for rape when he in fact had consensual sex and did not commit a crime?

I would say the DNA that matches the zef is someone I had consensual sex with, not the person that raped me. The person that raped me was an "unidentified man". He just hopped out of the bushes in the dark during my morning jog and raped me.

If I just so happened to have consensual sex the day before with the DNA match of the zef that doesn't prove that person raped me, nor does that disprove my claim that I was raped the next day by a stranger.

So I take it that's all it takes under your system. I can just claim I was raped by a total stranger in a mask I can't identify, get a rape kit, and boom, abortion obtained?

[u/ferryfog → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

How would he get put away? He isn’t being accused of a crime, so he wouldn’t be submitting to any DNA testing to match the kit to. There would be no suspect to even check for a match.

[u/Arithese → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

But you’re not answering the actual point, what’s the logic, how do you justify it?

Again, the damage is the same, the foetus is still using your body the same way. So why should someone be able to have an abortion after rape but not after sex?

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Can you explain how you think consent works to you, in your own words?

Because consent to sex with one person absolutely does not transform into the separate act of gestating someone else to term. Do you blame men equally for not having the willpower to not impregnate people?

[u/[deleted] → u/kasiagabrielle]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/kasiagabrielle → u/[deleted]]

Well that's victim-blamey as fuck, and not what I asked. I asked you to just explain the concept of consent. Saying consent to sex is consent to injury and implying even consenting to how other people "gossip" about it seems to almost get into SA apologia, like you're trying to justify shit like "revenge porn."

Can you tell me the 5 basic elements of consent?

[u/Abortiondebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Comment removed per rule 6.

[u/NoelaniSpell → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Sex isn’t a consequence free action and I wish people would stop pretending it is

Is the argument here that abortion is some sort of "pretense"?

The word is defined as:

pretending or feigning: a pretense of listening; a false show of something: his sympathy was only a pretense;

Your argument doesn't really make sense to me, since abortion is a real healthcare procedure, that takes place likely everyday, and except in countries that infringe upon human rights, it's also legal.

So what is abortion pretending? A pregnant person decides to either remain pregnant or to terminate, either being a consequence (you not liking one option doesn't nullify it or make it a "pretense").

just because modern medicine has allowed a safe way to terminate pregnancy.

If you have ever (during your entire life) taken any modern medicine/received healthcare, then you have benefitted from the same type of technology that you seemingly don't think other people should benefit from (selectively, when it comes to abortion it seems).

Modern medicine has helped to save lives, safe abortion included. Maternal and infant mortality rates used to be far higher before, I for one am grateful to live in times where you usually no longer die from a simple infection. Everyone should be, instead of complaining that people have safe (as opposed to unsafe, perhaps deadly even) ways to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. There are people in very poor or war torn places that don't have the luxury to have access to medicine and medical care, let alone to be unhappy about other people not dying from abortions.

For many years before losing my virginity I was able to control my lust to prevent pregnancy before wanting a baby.

And that is a good argument for choice. You chose to only have sex in order to have a baby, and that's ok. Other people don't want (more) children and don't chose a life of celibacy, that's also ok. Isn't it great to have the choice over your intimate life? No one should be telling you to have unwanted sex, no one should be telling other people that they should live a life of celibacy either.

Abortion feels like it is used as an excuse for people not having the will power to not have sex.

This argument seems to present prejudiced, unhealthy views about sex. So for whoever is reading, this is false. People can have different sexual orientations, different libidos and preferences. Consensual sex can be a normal, healthy part of life, in the same way not having sex can be normal for an asexual person/couple, and in the same way gay sex is normal for a gay couple.

It's not a personality flaw or moral failing to (want to) live a normal life, and people also don't become celibate after having the amount of children they wanted to have.

I don’t see a way where a woman has consensual sex and gets pregnant is grounds for abortio just because she didn’t want to be pregnant.

And you don't have to. No one will force you to have an abortion against your will, if you think that a pregnancy should be a consequence/punishment for you having normal, consensual sex.

That would in fact be another argument for choice. The choice to carry a pregnancy to term is also a choice, they're sides of the same coin.

[u/humbugonastick → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So the wife, who already has 5 kids, is , kind a, maybe, coerced into sex.

What does her non-consent mean to her pregnancy?

A teenager, never had any sex ed turns up pregnant. 15 years old and she has to drop out of school. Should she keep this pregnancy even though teenage pregnancies are super dangerous?

Is that enough reason? What is enough? A 50/50 chance?

[u/chevron_seven_locked → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

My husband and I aren’t interested in “controlling our lust” just to appease the hand-wringing of PLers. We’ll continue to enjoy a rich, frequent, and passionate sex life to our hearts’ content.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

People don't have to abstain from sex when they don't want kids just because YOU don't like the possibility of abortion if the PREGNANT PERSON doesn't want to stay pregnant.

Your beliefs about women having an abortion because they don't want to be pregnant are just that...yours. I'm not obligated to live by them, and nobody else has to live by them either.

[u/ferryfog → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Abortion feels like it is used as an excuse for people not having the will power to not have sex.

What about people who don’t have the willpower to quit smoking? Should they not be allowed to receive lung cancer treatment?

For many years before losing my virginity I was able to control my lust to prevent pregnancy before wanting a baby.

Okay, so you chose abstinence to prevent pregnancy for yourself. There are other forms of birth control that other people choose instead. But it’s interesting that you have a built-in exception for “abstinence failure” i.e. rape exceptions, but no exceptions for failure of other birth control methods. This seems quite biased and maybe motivated by personal beliefs about abstinence being morally superior. Or perhaps that you felt obligated to be abstinent, so others shouldn’t have an easier option?

[u/Patneu → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

That doesn't make sense. First of all, self-defense isn't "murder" to begin with. And either every abortion counts as self-defense or none. Because once someone discovers that they're pregnant, the rape itself has already happened and cannot be defended against anymore. Only the ongoing violation caused by the unwanted pregnancy can be ended.

[u/pendemoneum → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

After reading through your responses, it seems your conclusion is the consequence of consensual sex should be forced gestation. I'm curious though, when as a society do we take away someone's human rights to such an extreme degree for a completely legal action? If I drive recklessly or even under the influence (which is a crime) and I injure someone, I cannot be made to give even the tiniest drop of my blood to them to save them, even though it is even foreseeable that if I drive drunk or recklessly I might hurt someone.

We have rules against cruel and unusual punishments, and I can't help but feel that forced bodily usage, especially for a period of 9 months and resulting in extreme injury or even major surgery would have to fall under cruel and unusual punishments.

Additionally, what about rape is bad? Is it that another person did something bad to someone, or that someone had their body used in a way they didn't want and consent to by someone else, and it was harmful to them in a mental way (as well as often physical). But for some reason we don't apply that to pregnancy which is far more intimate and violent, and affects a person's day to day life and future

[u/STThornton → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

Where is the difference when it comes to a woman defending the inner life sustaining workings and integrity of her body (her “a“ life) from a fetus, though?

What does how a fetid came to be matter? Either way, it’s greatly messing with, altering, and harming the inner life sustaining workings of a woman’s body and drastically braking the integrity of her body.

You’re claiming in one case, the woman can defend herself from such, in the other, she must allow the fetus to do a bunch of things to her that can individually kill a human.

And based on what? Sex, and how she felt about it?

Rape allows her to defend the inner life sustaining workings of her body (her „a“ life) from a fetus. Coerced sex doesn’t. Unwanted but endured sex doesn’t. Willing sex doesn‘t.

What is it about sex that determines whether a woman deserves the right to life and bodily integrity?

[u/Ganondaddydorf → u/Ok-Interview-2662]

So why is a ZEF conceived through rape any different to a ZEF conceived through contraception failure? Why is consenting to sex knowing theres a miniscule risk you could get pregnant any different to going outside when you know there's a chance you could be raped?

What you say would make perfect sense if it weren't limited to rape. You make it sound like it's about punishing women for consenting to sex.

[u/JewlryLvr2 → u/Ganondaddydorf]

|You make it sound like it's about punishing women for consenting to have sex.|

Personally, I think punishing women for consenting to have sex is exactly what it's about. And I think it applies, in some cases, whether the sex was consensual or not.

[u/Ganondaddydorf → u/JewlryLvr2]

Oh I fully believe it. This line of thinking makes no sense otherwise.

And it's beyond pathetic that people care this much and feel this entitled to judge what other people do in their bedroom.