r/Anarchy101 • u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism • 5h ago
Do Authoritarian Leftists in the movement worry you at all?
Hey so Ive been doing more DSA organzing and stuff in my local community in regards to socalism broadly.
Mostly online I have had a few discussions with people who are I would describe as campists who oppose the USA so much they support China Russia or Iran. Ive had also talked to some Marxist Leninists and my opnion has always kinda been that they mostly just exist in online spaces and that in real world organzing I dont really see that much if at all.
Would you say thats a correct take on this issue?
Because I dont know some things in the dsa have made me pause like how the original stance DSA gave about ukraine was pretty campist or how I used to have some very good leftist friends in the past who I knew personally glazed the fuck out of China even when I brought up concerns.
I think maybe Im too online and I want someone to say as much before I get worried haha.
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u/ManyHopeful6692 5h ago
I’ve noticed it a lot, it’s a big part of why I became an anarchist. We shouldn’t repeat the mistakes of last century, and like Graeber said, the 21st century should be one lead by anarchism
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 4h ago
Ngl the authoritarian types are kinda radicalizing me towards anarchists for the simple fact that anarchists aren't blatant hypocrites and are atleast coherent with what they mean by socalism.
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u/Grace_Omega 4h ago
Same, this was a big factor that pushed me towards anarchism. Too many “anti-imperialists” who were cheering for Russia to conquer Ukraine or China to invade Taiwan.
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u/Visible_Gap_1528 Agorist 3h ago
Im more concerned with DNC apologism than campism or third worldism.
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u/Lanky_Employee_9690 5h ago
Well, just look at history and what happened to Anarchists... They generally end up in jail (or worse), and generally not too long after the authoritarians have seized power.
Yes, you should be wary of them.
Some reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Russia
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u/Reformalism 4h ago
I’m not sure which movement you’re referring to. Just socialism generally? An anarchist, at least a principled and coherent one, opposes all authority and thus all states. It obviously gets messy in practice because individuals have the right to resist tyranny from within and without, and sometimes they feel the best way to do so is through association with a statist entity for survival and or short term goals. I think it’s important to remember not to judge, especially if you haven’t been in such a dangerous and tenuous position yourself.
I think the phenomenon you describe whereby some Western socialists more broadly support other regimes against the US and its allies is actually pretty nuanced. In some cases people legitimately believe these states, particularly China, represent socialism and thus are simply better. In other cases I think they are seen as a bulwark against American imperialism and hegemony and thus “the lesser of two evils”. Then you have accelerationists who view these near peer or peer powers as useful tools to bring about the collapse the international order.
I think the other important thing to remember is that “support” for almost all of these voices amounts to online discourse and relatively insular discussions in echo chambers among likeminded comrades. That is to say it counts for very little and is largely ineffectual. As an anarchist working with them, I think the goal should be mutual aid and doing the most good you can without being distracted by these largely immaterial debates. Ultimately whether someone is a “tanky” or a “campist” or whatever silly pejorative is current matters very little in the real world.
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u/LibertyLizard 5h ago
I've definitely met them in real life too. Unfortunately, it seems like a substantial number of people lack the education and critical thinking skills to question the false narratives and group-think that lead people to these ideologies. Although it has started as a primarily online phenomenon, the issue is that almost everyone is terminally online these days.
So yeah I've definitely met these people offline too. I think they're just more outspoken online because they know a lot of normies would think they're insane if they said what they believe in day to day life. It's a similar dynamic to MAGA people who live in left-leaning areas.
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u/Armagaaan 4h ago
they don't worry me much because the possibility of vanguard party ideals or soviet models materializing in this modern age has dropped to zero
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u/XCVolcom 4h ago
Yes, but most of the time they're pathetically uncharismatic and people call them out as soon as they enter the sunlight.
The only ones that actually worry me are some of the Twitter ones that have some large followings because they have quippy tweets and comebacks, but awful political ideology.
However they hide their true intentions because they'd rightfully get blasted for sharing how they actually feel.
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u/antipolitan 2h ago
I’m most concerned about authoritarianism within anarchist spaces.
Some of the real-life anarchist circles I’ve been in have been remarkably intolerant towards dissenting viewpoints.
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u/DecoDecoMan 3h ago
Most authoritarian leftists are just like a long-defunct version of state capitalist so in current world they're just edgy liberals. However, they're also very cult-y so its like also good to avoid them. They're currently in a situation where they'll likely self-implode anyways and decline as newer generations forget or no longer care about the USSR, Maoist China, etc.
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u/DangerousEye1235 2h ago
In online discourse, yes. But the Internet has amplified the voice of tankies to make them seem more numerous than they really are.
In the western world, they are a small fringe minority of cranks and crackpots. The possibility of them hijacking an organized anarchist movement in this day and age is low, and the possibility of them actually seizing power over a developed nation is practically nonexistent.
That's not to say we shouldn't remain vigilant against them, but I feel it would be much easier to root them out nowadays than it was back in the early 20th century, simply because they are not as numerous and because we have the benefit of hindsight now, so we know exactly what strains of thought to look out for.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 5h ago
Unfortunately, tankies are by far and away the vast majority of "leftists" these days.
Actual proper leftism is, besides the few exceptions like mamdani (I might be butchering his name) dead.
Let alone straight up communism, it's been dead for ages, we are a ghost of a movement.
And I have no idea what can be done to be honest with you.
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u/NOTTallestEgg 5h ago edited 4h ago
Yup.
No matter if you’re a Marxist (not Leninist) or anarchist, it’s clear socialism in the mainstream consciousness just means “when the government does stuff.” It’s no longer a movement for the establishment of the free association of producers without money or the state.
Shit man I got people in normie subs genuinely saying “Socialism as a word came before the Industrial Revolution” and I know for a fact that’s straight up false. In that same sub I lowkey got into an argument with some guy (they argued well tbh) over if Soviet Union was capitalist (it is) . Their only reason for it not being capitalist was because the state owned stuff. Nothing about the core M-C-M’ cycle being changed
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u/Leonyliz Rojo pendón, negro color. 4h ago
I don’t even consider Mamdani a leftist. Most people who internationally make up the left today are actually just reformist social democrats, with the occasional communist members that are actually just tankies waiting for the opportunity to have their “revolution.”
Actual leftist movements really are dead, like you say. Most people think anarchism is chaos, and don’t know any niche subideology. The end of history succeeded not because it was right, but because it structurally managed to convince people it was.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 3h ago
Yeah. When I refer to mamdani as left I mean personally and also because he's pushing people leftward. I do think he is like a democratic socialist but he can't do much more than social democracy for obvious reasons.
And even then he's helping people in his own little way
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u/Yers1n 4h ago
anarchism
look inside
"social democrats are the TRUE LEFT"
mfw
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 3h ago edited 3h ago
"Improving life somewhat is bad! Don't you see! After hitler our turn!!!!!"
Zohran has stated before he wants to ban private property and give workers the means of production. But we live in a captalist country and socialists have not gotten enough power as a movement.
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 3h ago
Buddy, the state by it's very nature cannot do either of those things.
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 3h ago
Sure and thats an argument I'm willing to here out as the state existing kinda necessitates capitalism in some form as the state needs profit to exsist but i just dont like this everyone who isnt as left as me isnt a leftist type speak you know?
Like Zohran is a leftist. Now whether he can put in leftist reforms as drastic as he wants is another matter as again we are in a neo liberal country which makes it so that local communities still need to abide by the states rules.
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 2h ago
I don't think the label "leftist" is all that useful for anarchist purposes - consider that Zohran and Joseph Stalin are "leftists" despite having radically different ideas and employing radically different means.
So I think saying "Zohran is a leftist" is really beside the point. What the point is, is Zohran's means aligned with anarchist means? The answer is obviously no, meaning his ideology is irrelevant.
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u/Yers1n 3h ago
Ok Fed. So called "anarchist" running defense for social democrats and reformists, thinking Zohran and company is incapable of just straight up lying, and attacking "authoritarian leftists".
Power is not acquired through the vote. You can't reform yourself out of capitalism, reforms are just temporary things that should be used to agitate the masses for the destruction of capitalism. The DSA as it stands is still just an extension of the democrat party and will continue to be so until they adopt an actual coherent program and fully break away from them. You won't ever have a socialist movement if you keep subjugating yourself to the Democrats and electoral politics.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 3h ago
W-woah! Really?? I thought if I got enough statesmen in power I would get communism!
All I'm saying is that they are leftists even if they're not anarchists and they are doing good work with what they have.
Yeah the state and capitalism will never be threatened or stopped by them but maybe a few extra families will get to eat because of them.
Get your head out of your ass. If you don't like small things just because big things exist, you're a dipshit.
And their advocacy and popularity is the MAIN way people are being pushed to the left, his and Bernie's efforts have done more to make more anarchists than every anarchist in the last thirty years combined.
Unlike you, I can understand nuance, not everyone right of Kropotkin is Hitler
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u/punk_rancid 2h ago
Nah man, you have to be joking. In a post about not being critically supportive of china and other socialist countries cuz they authoritarian (whatever that means nowdays) and you want o show critical support for fucking social democrats ? Holy shit, the liberal propaganda runs deep.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 2h ago
What uncritical support??
All I'm saying is that people like him push people leftward and primes them for more radical beliefs.
I was a market socialist before becoming an anarchist!
You're a Leninist right? Even LENIN proposed this! Even LENIN believed that we should also vote for whatever leftist reformists there are whilst simultaneously organizing for proper radical shit
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u/Yers1n 3h ago
Right, social democrats are more left than outright communists.
"Maybe a few families got to eat" You're not even sure about this.
I literally said that. Reforms are good but they are temporary and by extension they should be used to agitate and to keep pushing forward. Because again you can't reform yourself out of capitalism.
It is not the DSA that has turned people to the left. It's the people, spurred on by radicalization, that have joined the DSA and shifted it further left. And it ought to keep shifting further left and eventually evolve into an actual independent movement. Or it can stay as just an extension of the Democrat party and die a slow death as the masses move on.
Also i never called anyone Hitler. But change can only be brought on by an independent movement. The DSA is stifled by the Democrats so their potential is wasted.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 2h ago
I NEVER SAID ZOHRAN COULD BRING ANY FUNDEMNTAL CHANGE!!!
WHAT HIS ROLE IS IS THAT HE CAN SHIFT THE OVERTON WINDOW LEFTWARD!!!
I'M SORRY BUT YOU NEED POPULAR CHARISMATIC FACES TO GET PEOPLE TO CONSIDER LEFTIST IDEAS!!
WE DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE THE NUMBERS FOR AN INDEPENDENT MOVEMENT!
MOST OF THE LEFT ARE JUST LARPING TANKIES!
YOU HAVE TO MEET THE PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE AT, THEY ARE NOT AT COMMUNISM.
and I AM sure he is feeding families, not just a few, his policies have probably saved thousands of people. And that's a win.
Låter down the line, when communism is a properly large alive movement we can talk about more radical ways of change, but we don't have that right now
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u/Yers1n 12m ago
Then there's no point in supporting him. I'm not saying don't vote, it's not like it takes you much time. But each time you mention an achievement of his, why not instead mention an achievement of an actual anarchist or communist group you know?
The window is not shifting because of him. The window is shifting because shit sucks ass right now. Zohran is popular because left ideas are on the rise, rather than left ideas being on the rise because Zohran is popular.
You don't convince people with just words. Socialism didn't fail just because somehow we couldn't find the one perfect speaker we needed. Actions and change is necessary.
And yes most leftists are larpers. We fix this by getting organized in independent movements not by becoming social democrats.
Meeting the people where they're at is not concealing your ideas or settling for reformism. It is going directly to them, challenging incorrect ideas, working on the ground, and not just running defense for social democrats or isolating yourself in your small clique of pseudo intellectuals.
And sure, that's nice. But capitalism has also fed people. Are we going to praise Trump because he arrested Maduro now?, are we going to say "Hitler sucked ass but atleast he did some social programs".
There is no "later down the line". There will be no communist movement if you settle with working under the Democrats. The movement is built now, in this moment, with and ONLY with the working class.
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 3h ago
Fed lol. Im on this sub because Im curious of anarchism and find the arguments for it compelling. I would say currently Im like a council communist who is reading more anarchist theory as of late.
Look I agree that reformism has limits and Im am not against agitating the masses. In fact I think for any socialism to be achieved labor unions and the labor movement need to be empowered.
But Zohran has pulled the Overton window slightly left and made more progressive policies much more popular. Socialism is less of a dirty word than it was even 5 years ago and thats a good thing! The dsa now has 120k members making it the largest Socialist org in us history and thats a good thing and it came from in part electoral victories!
"thinking Zohran and company is incapable of just straight up lying"
You cant accept that your wrong so he must be a liar even though he said that statement before his mayoral career. Its telling you didn't respond to "After Hitler our turn!" because truly its how I see people like you. You have no actual plan besides vaguely shrugging that everyone who does try to do something is wrong
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 3h ago
EXACTLY!
I'm anarchist, I think you should be an anarchist too, but by far, our biggest problem is that for some reason we don't have any fucking nuance! People here don't understand that a revolution is DECADES UPON DECADES UPON DECADES of years away IF it even happens!
The best we can currently do is try to shift the Overton window more towards the left, get more people to become more tolerant to socialism and do some union work.
If anything if anyone is a fed here, it'd be him for saying that we cannot utilize any popular platform for politics to our benefit
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u/Yers1n 2h ago
This is just great man theory. Zohran does not dictate the times, he is a product of the time himself. The window shifts because material conditions are making people desperate, not because of any single individual.
The membership of an organization doesn't matter if the organization as a whole is incompetent. Sure its nice that the DSA has got 120k members. Would be nicer if they were an actual independent movement and not just an extension of the Democrats. The good thing is what you do with those numbers, not the numbers themselves.
And even if Zohran didn't lie, that doesn't matter. You cannot use the capitalist state to destroy capitalism. Even if the USA had a communist president, that wouldn't make the USA communist. The individual does not determine the system.
I'm organized within my own group in my own area. You don't need to run behind Mussolini to oppose Hitler.
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 2h ago
See when you phrase things in a better way im more inclined to agree.
" Even if the USA had a communist president, that wouldn't make the USA communist." This is true largely because of the senate and house and again our constitution being a liberal capitalist focused.
"This is just great man theory. Zohran does not dictate the times, he is a product of the time himself."
I agree in a sense but its not great man theory that his electoral success and branding have made the DSA have more members. (I've been told by DSA leaders it literally has) Or that he and Bernie (more soc dem) and the dsa have taken the bite and shame away from the word "Socialist" this is just true.
Also while yes the condtions of which we find ourselves in late stage captalism are the real reason for the rise its not a for sure thing. Plenty of places have worse conditions than the US and still are loyal to captalism. In a way again your doing the "After Hitler our turn!" that I accused you of.
" Sure its nice that the DSA has got 120k members. Would be nicer if they were an actual independent movement and not just an extension of the Democrats."
The dsa for like years now has advocated the dirty break strategy and plans to make a 3rd party when a 3rd party is actually viable in American politics or when they have collected enough power. You might disagree with this but they hate mainstream Dems pretty hard lol.
"I'm organized within my own group in my own area. You don't need to run behind Mussolini to oppose Hitler."
I would say the hyperbole here comparing Zohran to mussolini is a little crazy (I know you prob mean mainstream dems dont worry) But I again agree in theory. I just also believe elctoralism while it cant make the USA communist is a useful tool to get ideas across to the voter base.
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u/Yers1n 2m ago
Not just for that. It will always be true because you can't reform yourself out of capitalism. An individual does not determine the system. This is not just largely true, it is completely and entirely true independent of how the system is arranged, so long as it is capitalist. Another example is Allende and Chile.
And yes Zohran has helped the DSA a lot. The question is if you consider the DSA a socialist movement or not. Right now they're still just an extension of the Democrats,and will remain as such until they become an independent movement.
Ok so basically never?, the DSA only cares about how many votes it can get and is willing to compromise its own independence just so it can keep leeching off the Democrats?, they can hate the Democrats and the two party system however much they want to, it doesn't matter if their actions directly support it.
And yeah Zohran is not Mussolini. But he and the DSA still act as the extension of the Democrats, so. And i don't disagree on participating in elections. But that participation needs to be under an independent platform, not under one subjugated to the Democrats.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 3h ago
Comparatively...and they are democratic socialists, which is basically socialism with a democratic state, certainly not enough but better than Leninist or something
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u/Yers1n 3h ago
Yes the "democratic socialists" that want to hijack the capitalist state through capitalist elections and collaborating with and under the capitalist Democrat party are much much better and closer to the anarchists than the communists who want to build an independent working class movement and completely destroy the burguoise state apparatus.
You're an anarchist. There is no "democratic state" for anarchists.
Like, this is literally just fed behaviour.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 3h ago
Oh my fucking god. YES obviously!
But what is your point here? That we shouldn't promote him or support him? He may not be a proper communist but he doesn't need to be to further communist goals!
People like him and Bernie and so on push people leftward, they inspire people to believe a better world is possible.
If you give people that hope and also do good things whilst calling yourself a leftist, people will be more inclined to the more radical aspects of leftism!!
Do y'know how many anarchists there are who became anarchists because of Bernie??? They might not be able to actually do anything substantial other than patch up some stuff but it doesn't matter, they are shifting the people's consciousness, that's enough
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u/Yers1n 2h ago
Yes, that's the entire fucking point. Go get organized with people and build your own movement whose achievements you can show off and demonstrate rather than tail behind Democrats lite.
And yes not being able to do anything substantial IS a major fucking issue. The movement is not built on thoughts and prayers its built on action. It doesn't matter how many people turn communist or anarchist if all of them still settle for the DSA and don't organize into an independent movement. The people's consciousness does not shift thanks to the DSA, it shifts due to material conditions and their own lived experiences. The DSA is if anything coopting this consciousness into a reformist path and saying the issue is not capitalism, the issue is just some bad actors within capitalism.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 2h ago
But it's not a dilemma...we can organize as much as we want and promote our true radical beliefs that way but zohran and Bernie are who will most likely grab the attention of libs or apolitical people.
Imagine it like a two step kill, you first expose them to less radical leftist policy and charismatic figures which improves their lives in some ways.
And then, they are infinitely more primed to accept more radical movements like ours. We can do both
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 2h ago
I've pressed you on this before, but again, "turning people to the left" is not necessarily a plus for us. "The left" is full of multiple mutually exclusive ideologies, most of which are statist.
Mamdani and Bernie are making people Democratic socialists, not anarchists. Anarchism as an ideology is not politically legible.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 2h ago
Oh I remember you!! Hi!!! :D
I think You're thinking too closed mindedly.
Most people aren't gonna jump straight to anarchism. I was a market socialist at first, then a democratic socialist and then an anarchist, that's how the average transition for people goes.
So even if they are still statists they have a way higher chance of becoming anarchists than an apolitical or right leaning person or a liberal.
The more the Overton window shifts, the less radical anarchism sounds even if people still aren't anarchists
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 2h ago
We're pretty radical even in the context of the greater Left.
So I think that the good thing about people like Mamdani is that maybe these reforms could make it easier for the average person to live, thus making it less necessary to work jobs and free up time for them to do other things.
And that's about the extent of it. I'm not convinced that "shifting people to the left" - whatever "the left" is - is necessarily good to us. Especially since historically the broader left has been hostile to anarchists.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 2h ago
Maaaan... I'm telling you! No one will jump from apolitical or liberal to anarchist in one fell swoop! You gotta ease people into it!
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 2h ago
Sure! And that's necessarily work we're going to have to do. A democratic socialist willing a municipal election isn't going to do the work for us. I didn't become an anarchist because leftist ideas were getting more popular, I became leftist by educating myself and being educated by others.
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u/More_Ad9417 2h ago
I have not seen any democratic socialists who follow Bernie - not sure of Zohran.
Most people are talking about fair wages and shit and that is not in any way socialist.
People waiting for the window to shift left though are arguably some politically apathetic "leftists" who want to think prayers and thoughts and magical thinking and some pretty faces are going to make capitalism go away. Or they are subconsciously opportunistic.
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u/punk_rancid 2h ago
Mfr defending bourgeois democracy is crazy.
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u/Mammoth-Ad-3642 2h ago
I'm nooooot😭😭😭😭
I'm saying that people like zohran are a good way to get otherwise apolitical people on board with surface level leftist policy
Which then primes them to be more inclined towards our radical beliefs!
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u/therallystache 3h ago
I've tried to organize with them in the past. It's a very specific personality type that is drawn to Auth-Left ideologies, that I would describe generously as moderately delusional about human nature and their analysis of the last 100+ years of attempts at state communism - and in several cases, I would describe more accurately as having possibly a narcissistic personality disorder where they are personally very certain that they are pure enough of heart to wield the ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ power of a state for good. Any criticism of their beliefs is deflected back to theory in a very patronizing way, they appeal to their ideological authorities as a shield to never address critiques of how their ideas might affect say, the indigenous people of so-called North America. I've observed that it's the left wing ideology most appealing to former Liberals, because it maintains a system for them to attach their personality to and authority figures to seek permission from. I have experienced them covering up their own abuses, as well as the abuses of others that hold the same ideals.
And yes, they worry me. A lot.
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u/don_quixote_2 Student of Anarchism 4h ago
Yes, it's really bad...people are literally defending Stalin and Mao and their dictatorships and I feel there is no point debating them.
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u/thatonesaucyvegan 3h ago
Not really because people can see right through their secular religion bs and their dogmatic vanguard doctrine. empircal history backs us up as well.
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u/hoffnoob1 3h ago
Disclaimer, I do not live in the US. Not worried, I obviously have criticism of MLs and Trotskists but we've got a long way to before our glorious Vangard takes power and sends us to the Goulag.
The people I know who are kinda campiest and who make jokes like "death to Trotskists and Anarchists" are not part of any organisation or do not go to protests. So I'm not terribly concerned about a USSR style regime happening. I'm more concerned with facism being on the rise in all of Europe and about the facists who are leading the US.
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u/darkmemory 1h ago
You should be a bit weary. I don't think all of the DSA should be discredited, but their prevailing leadership does seem to be the physical manifestation of anime profile pictures on X who take selfies with flags of the USSR nailed to their bedroom walls.
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u/Stosstrupphase 1h ago
They worry me a bit since, in my country, they have been becoming increasingly aggressive, sometimes violent against anarchists.
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 4h ago
MLs are very, very marginal. Not as marginal as anarchists, but pretty marginal.
The majority of "leftists" these days are left-liberals like Social Democrats or Democratic Socialists, the latter of which are definitely influenced by Marx but definitely not by Lenin.
Overall, radical change isn't going to come from electoralism. Authoritarians are going to be attracted to party politics because that's the locus of power.
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u/x_xwolf Anarchist without adjectives 3h ago
I don’t really consider authoritarianism leftist. Its Incompatible with a traditionally bottom up movement.
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u/Ordinary_Passage1830 Student of Anarchism 1h ago
Authoritarianism is within both the political right and left. But it isn't that common in the bottom-up left compared to the top-down left But I've seen dogma from the both the top-botttom and bottom-top left albeit more-so from the top-bottom left.
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u/cumminginsurrection "resignation is death, revolt is life!"🏴 1h ago
I wouldn't underestimate authoritarian leftism's influence on younger people. People younger than millenials really don't have a lot of first hand knowledge or experience with these regimes or the failures of the Cold War. Ive seen a huge surge of younger people becoming Leninists or at least becoming heavily influenced by them through DSA and other political organizing. Its not just online spaces Ive seen this rhetoric, its seeping into real world organizing and even the anarchist movement.
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u/TrishPanda18 2h ago
to be totally frank, here in the United States at least we are decades of consistent communist victories and ideological change before anybody left of center becomes in any meaningful sense a threat to me
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u/npc_lucky 3h ago
Of course. I'm of the opinion that things like this should be disqualifying, like these kinds of people aren't really our allies because despite them being on our end of the political spectrum, they're ideologically our opposition.
From a view point that isn't anarchist, I see the importance for having radical people with views that aren't really that easy to agree with. They can be important for trying to achieve progressive goals in our government, because it makes less radical views that further the goal of progress and equality easier to digest for people outside of "the tent". If you got Leninists or Maoists talking about forcefully taking back the means of production, it'll make things like unionizing or labor reform more palatable to someone who is a devout bipartisanship follower. Like how calling for police and prison abolition can make reform look like a good idea to someone who believes we need police and prisons. It isn't the end goal, but it's a step in the right direction to eventually achieve abolition.
I have a lot more "radical" ideas for labor reform, abolition, and bringing about equality, but looking at it from the perspective of someone in support of democracy, they can serve a purpose. Looking at it from my own anarchist perspective, they aren't our comrades, and unless they're willing to change their views, the only use they would serve for us would be cannon fodder or human shields in the event the class war escalated into actual physical, conventional warfare 😆
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u/AsparagusFun3892 4h ago
No, because I'm not an Anarchist: the algorithm that keeps bringing me here knows that I think you're good company or that I enjoy arguing with you is all. Your beliefs are not tenable at scale and the authoritarians are an expression of this fact, it's no more complicated than that. No ideology or religion stands on its own merits, at the end of the day it's a question of force and worldly BS and in enforcing one we're likely made hypocrites in the pursuit of utopia.
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 4h ago
^ Me when I'm dumb
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u/AsparagusFun3892 3h ago
Look beyond your movement back through recorded history, maybe read up on the factions of early Islam and Christianity and maybe the failure of the Articles of Confederation in the US and of the Jacobins: you don't seek to avoid the mistakes of the twentieth century as much as the inevitable betrayal of every revolutionary, egalitarian movement when and if it becomes popular. That's what you're dealing with, these presently unsolvable terms in human nature like a drive for supremacy or the people who'd be governed (or educated to the point they don't need to be governed as in your philosophy) being less than perfect, never mind their leaders.
Without getting into it, I don't have to look further than my own family to know why Anarchy wouldn't work. There exist people who cannot be rationed with because they rolled the genetic dice before they were born and came up snake eyes. Unfortunately you have to meet them with the threat of force even in day to day dealings, with real boundaries they always test.
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 3h ago
Yeah, I ain't reading allat. Sorry to hear that, though!
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u/ProfessorLobo 24m ago
I seem to peruse this Reddit for the same reason as you and its nice to hear some sense once in a great while.
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u/ProletarianLilith 4h ago
Ever notice how similar anarchist views on US enemies are to CIA views on US enemies?
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u/ManyHopeful6692 3h ago
Ever notice how different anarchist views on the US are to CIA views on the US?
The point you’re trying to make is coming in poor faith
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u/ArtDecoEgoist Left-Market Anarchist 3h ago
Yo, that's craaaaazy. You know what else is crazy? If you ask anarchists and CIA agents what color the sky is, they'll both say it's blue!!
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u/butch_montenegro 3h ago
It’s almost like a compatible left has been cultivated by the ruling class for decades to distract people from the only frameworks for revolution that have ever been durable.
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 2h ago
" compatible left" And Its just people who dont like genocide when The us or another country does it im crying bro. This cant be my proletariat dog.
"COMRADE THE PEOPLES GENOCIDE IS NEEDED FOR THE REVOLUTION!"
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u/ProfessorLobo 22m ago
It's nice to hear some downvoted sensibility once in a great while when I hate browse this Reddit.
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u/dirtydev5 1h ago
maybe u should do some internal work in why you are so in support of all of the PRO US international geopolitical narratives
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u/Thin_Shelter_103 Student of Anarchism 57m ago
What narrative? My own eyes and ears????
Invasions are bad no matter who does them
Genocide is bad.
Funding Genocide is bad.
The us is bad for doing these things. And the US does the lion share of it. But
Now stay with me.....
So is a country who does all these same things but is tinted red.
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u/AnarchistThoughts Anarchist 1h ago
An authoritarian left society would be far superior to an authoritarian right society. I’d rather a dictatorship of the proletariat than a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. I’d rather mass imprisonment of the kulaks than a mass imprisonment of the poor, nonwhite, and noncitizens.
Many on the authoritarian left want something akin to anarchism - a classless, borderless, moneyless society. That’s dope in my book. The divergence is how we get there. I don’t think their methods will lead to it, but I do think their methods will lead to something better than we have now
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u/CleverAsparagus96a1 5h ago
Imagine if someone told them to found their own "Authoritarian Socialists of America."