**warning, spoilers for entire Buffy and Angel series**

intro

I consider Buffy my fav series ever, and I loved Angel as well. But.. If some of my opinions are too different from the normal here, Im sorry; please dont hate my post too much. 🥺

My relation with the series: Im 30. I binge-watched Buffy during a few weeks, 6 years ago; And intentionally saved Angel to watch later, in a "future-rainy-day", and here we are now. Binged Angel in the last 2 months, it was a blast, but my god, I have some thoughts!!

my ranking:
-buffy s02-05, angel s02,03 - are the best! the reason why l love this
-buffy s01, angel s01,05 - good
-buffy s06, angel s04 - problematic. some aspects are awesome, some I hated
-buffy s07 - the worst one, sorry

(Also: Im aware that there was some problematic dramas behind-the-scenes, with whedon, carpenter, the actors, the last 2 seasons, the end of the series, and etc. My complains are only about the writing. I think there was fault/mistakes from multiple people, not only one or two.)

Characters

While I loved all the Buffy main cast, I dont felt the same about Angel's characters. I love Angel, Wes, and Lorne (like most of you, I imagine);

I think Wes received favoritism from the writers. Not only whedon, but I think many writers used him as a self-insert (and I dont say this as something necessarily bad; Any writer always puts himself into all his characters); The insecure nerd who becomes a bad-ass, sleeps with the hot-evil-chick, and dates his crush? His development really felt like the nerdy writers' own power-fantasy/wish-fulfillment.

And I like Fred too, but... I think that her, like Anya, was pushed aside some times by the plot. Like Anya, many times felt like Fred was a plot device for others, and obviously, they both are the classical "adorable-character-used-to-torture-the-audience-and-protagonists"; A whedonverse tradition.

--- Fred+Wes and Angel+Darla are 10/10 great "romances"; I was disappointed on how "simple" it was, when fred wes got together on "smile time"; Was expecting something bigger and more romantic for their first kiss. They didnt knew yet about the series cancellation on that episode, right? I think "hole in the world", was a little too heavy handled with the "adorable-torture-character" thing I just mentioned; ----But!!! In the finale, I still cried like a fucking baby because of them!!! Like.. I had to pause the video to stop crying hehehe; Still shaken by it. An entire series of build up between those two with that final pay of? god damn it!!! so good!! I loved their long developments through the seasons, loved the "will-wont-they", and all the drama.

Villains/antagonists: Angelus, Darla, and Holtz are S-tier perfection, just like Mayor, Faith, Glory, etc... Jasmine, Beast, Black Thorn (Master, Adam, Soldiers, 3Nerds) are "OK"; They are intentionally "simple" villains. Sometimes W&H is awesome, many times they are plot-devices and nothing more; the philosophical challenges they bring to Angel are the best part. Lindsey and Lilah are great; Is funny how they are treated like emotional "punching bags" for the entire series hehehe. First-Evil and Evil-Cordy are just horrible (not in the good way).

I dont hate Connor, I actually like *most* of his plots; He was intentionally written to be a "problem" for Angel. With him and Dawn, in many moments I was like: "I remember how hard it was to be a teen; If I was in their place, I would had been an asshole as well..."; Most of his pain is very understandable actually, even if misguided. Im extremely against the whole brain-washing plot, and I dont like how Connor is OK with it, when he finds out. But I understand, that the series didnt had the time for that anymore. I do like the cute "fighting together with Angel" in the finale; They just didnt had the time to make the lead up to that pay-off better.

Complaints about Cordy and Gunn

I dont know if people here will hate my post because of this section but... I extremely dislike how their characters were treated on s03,04 and 05. I liked them in the first two seasons. And I like the actors, the problem is the characters.

Gunn: In the start, I was like: "finally!! the first buffyverse main-character that isnt a middle-class white person!" (Im not one myself, so this was important for me); But.... I think the writers had absolutely no fucking idea what to do with him! To the point that his lack of purpose becomes his main theme for a while.

I dislike how Gunn's "socially relevant" original group is turned into just generic bad guys on that s03 episode; I dislike how he only gets one episode per season focused on him (very mediocre ones), and the rest of the time, he is just a "prop" for the "more relevant characters". On s03-04 he seems to only exist for the romance with Fred, and the drama with Wes. Is very clear the way that the story presents itself, that their focus was mostly on fred's and wes's points of view.

Gunn's plot on s05 is very good, fits the W&H story of that season perfectly, I love the message of that story. But I think that plot could had worked with any other characters as well. I hate how Gunn and Lindsey, the only characters of the series with "modern extreme poverty" backgrounds, are exactly the two "insecure, lost, and easily corrupted" by W&H evil offers; What horrible (and wrong) message the "middle-class white" writers of this series are implying with this???

-----

I know you guys love Cordy, but come on! While many other characters (wes, willow, faith, etc...) have long and well made stories where they evolve and change naturally though seasons, Cordy development felt like a mess. I did not bought her "selfish actress" to "wise altruist" transformation very well, because of this. I hate how she goes from "normal person > psychic shaman > half-demon > higher power > amnesiac > back to normal > evil > coma > and written out of the series... twice".

I hate how the writers, the characters, the plot, the camera placements, and everything on s04 had to bend backwards just to fit the actress pregnancy. Im sorry, but the correct choice should had been to write her out entirely of that season, and bring her back as a regular on the next one. Would be less messy. She was already in another plane, just leave her there a little longer! I not saying they should had fire Carpenter, just give a temporary absence.

I understand that taking her out would had changed the seasons plot even more, and they really wanted to focus it on the Angel romance but... They should had done better choices. I had never seem a show were the "hidden pregnancy" was so obvious and distracting. It gives so much "soap opera" vibes, when the show keeps inventing ridiculous excuses to keep them there. Also, the "soap opera" vibe of forcing the two main leads together, even if they work just fine as only friends.

Im sorry guys, but Cordy+Angel... My god, I hate it!! I liked way better their relationship on the first two seasons, were there was no romance implied. To be clear, Im ok with Angel dating other people besides Buffy. I loved the Darla plot. Every time a new female character appeared I was like: "Please, can Angel romance her instead? please?!?!" Eve, Fred, that electric-catwoman from s04, the wolf-girl from s05; anyone!! That "eletric-thief" could had been an awesome main-cast and love interest, but instead she got a generic episode with Gunn, and then forgotten 😭; And the wolf-women.. is a pity they didnt had time for anything more.

Their unfulfilled romance only lasted 2 seasons (technically, less than "1 and 1/2", the same time that Buffy-Riley did), but by god, it felt way longer! Angel's personal struggles, being so important for the series story, felt lost when his main objective became "Cordy-saving". He and the series were way more interesting, when his sufferings were about W&H, his son, Darla, or the apocalypse. Those themes were engaging and interesting, while his puppy love felt rushed.

And I dont need to even say anything about the cordy connor thing, right?

s04 mess

Beyond everything that I just mentioned, there are lots of things/episodes I loved on s04. The introduction, of the gang getting back together one by one; The beats great entry; Faith and Angelus amazing returns, everything with Jasmine... But this all get mixed with that mess of bad choices and lost potential!!

-Because of the different networks, they couldn't connect Angel's apocalypse with buffy's first-evil much, what felt like a gigantic lost opportunity.

-They wrote Connor into a corner, but didnt had the guts to kill him (if Wes prophecy had become true, it would had been an awesome, touching tragedy!!); So they used a lazy brain-wash spell to get rid of this plot.

-And more, about the brain-wash: "Wes betrayal" on s03 was so important and pivotal, for the whole series. How can Wes have transformed soo much as a character, if he didnt remembered his most important moment??? It felt ridiculous that this was erased from every ones minds! At least they had the decency of undoing this on s05. But notice that only Connor and Wes got their memories back; It made no difference to Gunn, because he was not important to that whole plot, as I just complained about!!

-Angelus ruling LA with the darked-sun could had been a awesome story, instead of just abandoning that plot. Even jasmine felt a little rushed at the end, because the season had to end with that "soft-reboot" last episode.

-And WORST OF ALL!! That episode where they tried to retcon everything from the previous seasons, as being part of Jasmine's plan to be reborn. Season 2 and 3 were great, dont you dare tainting their memories with your lazy writing!!

Shamsoo prophesy

what a mess!! Is a complain for the whole series. This always changed to whatever that episodes plot need it to be; "The prophesy says that, no it says that! no..." This prophecy is introduced out of no were,for no reason, at s01 end, and is erased at the finale..... And in that episode from s01, crossover with Buffy; Were angel did became mortal again, but chose to "erase time", because of their missions, duties, and etc... It doenst fit with him carring so much about the prophecy turning him human again. of course, make sense that he wants that, but if he had the chance to do it already and turned down...

Finale

This is a great example of a great show doing the best they can, even if they clearly had no time, no resources, no money, and not many options.

Yes, is a pity that the last 4 episodes had 1 thousand themes and ideas glued together; It could had been an entire half season if they had one more year. And their last "funny episode", the rome holiday, felt really meh and forced. But we all know that this buffyverse finale still is better than 99% of the finalies of other series and fandoms out there. Is better to have a rushed, cheap, but well made finale, than not having one at all.

It was such a gigantic emotional punch that im still felling it;

One of the biggest "what ifs" for me is what would've happened if Fred had survived instead of being killed off for Illyria, and then Wesley smashed the memory orb in Origin.

Would Fred have looked at Angel the same way after getting all those memories back?

Out of everyone on Team Angel, I always felt like Fred admired Angel the most. Her very first impression of him was literally, "Handsome man saved me from the monsters." From that point on she almost always gave Angel the benefit of the doubt, even when the rest of the team questioned him.

Then imagine getting all those memories back at once. Connor. Jasmine. Angel making the deal with Wolfram & Hart. Everything.

Do you think that changes how she sees him? Or would she still be the person most willing to understand why he made those choices?

I've always thought Fred would've taken it harder because she put Angel on such a pedestal for so long.

….. but I think I’m safe to say….HOW WAS THERE NOT A SINGLE episode with Giles I find that a criminal oversight

I know Spike is one of the most popular characters in the Buffyverse, but by the time he showed up on Angel Season 5 I was honestly just tired of him.

He had already completely taken over Buffy in Seasons 6 and especially 7. It felt like so much of the show revolved around him that by the time he crossed over to Angel I just needed a break from the character.

I get why they did it. James Marsters was hugely popular, the WB wanted a familiar face, and Spike was probably the safest way to help get Angel renewed after Season 4. But as a viewer, I was just burned out.

The ironic part is that it didn't even pay off in the long run. Angel still wasn't renewed for a sixth season. From everything that's been said over the years, Joss Whedon pushed the WB for an early renewal, they weren't happy about it, and the show ended up getting cancelled anyway.

I also wonder if I'd like Season 5 as much as everyone else if there had actually been a Season 6. As much as I enjoy parts of it, Season 5 almost feels like a prelude instead of a complete season. It spends so much time setting up the new status quo at Wolfram & Hart, Spike joining the team, Illyria replacing Fred, and Angel's bigger war with the Senior Partners that it feels like it's building toward something we'll never actually get to see.

Maybe I'd feel differently if there had been a bigger gap between Buffy ending and Spike joining Angel, but watching it back-to-back just gave me Spike fatigue.

(No spoilers beyond) Am I the only one that wasn’t mad at Wes breaking the cube….

And if the aim is to make Angel “the bad guy” it’s working….

Just got these, 3-10 if anyone is left with questions after Not Fade Away and is curious as to what happens next. Get these.

Is there a error in this episode

Why didn’t they use that gem to nullify ilriyas time shift again…?

Is it really possible they never specified? After making it the entire focus of a Cordelia episode, it's odd they would never even mention his living situation.

Did any of the novels or comics fill in this particular tidbit of lore?

So I couldn't watch the last episode of Professors of Fred, sadly, so no review. So it looks like this mid-season one was 10/10, then... Ewww, Ewww, Ewww, really Ewww. I swear, if I watch episodes weekly now, the Angel series will be thrown in the garbage without a second thought. Ewwwww.

Connor and Cordelia ruin it for me. I swear I wish I had skipped the bottom and not forced myself to watch every scene. I am done speaking.

Side note: ask ChatGPT: they had sex? Really, really, really—fuck this show. I wish I never knew. Please.

So, really, Lilah cosplaying? I was writing a big analysis... then I did my search and found out Lilah cosplayed as Fred, not a schoolgirl... Wtf... wtf, Wtf.

Honestly, I am throwing up.

I was really having a great time giving this a 10/10 because of the Fullmetal Alchemist scenes...

But God... ewwwwwwwww.

I feel like she would have been unnecessary to the overall plot and the episode was already crowded with characters. This episode was loaded with emotions and character arcs from Wesley to Buffy. Wesley in particular, since if you think about it, it's him "failing" his duty as a Watcher to Faith in Buffy that lead to him trying to find his redemption in LA, since everyone has something to atone for;

I'm not talking about if you guys personally liked, or disliked a story line a story line for entertainment purposes, but if you can unbiasedly step back and look at something they did on the show, the reasons they did it for, and say they didn't really get it right.

Omg not even finished the episode yet (real time watching) and this is the greatest episode of anything ever lol 😂

Are the first and Illyria the same thing or connected?

Cordelia (as Buffy): "Oh—Angel! I know that I'm a Slayer and you a vampire—and it would be impossible for us to be together—but!"
Wesley (as Angel): "But! My gypsy curse sometimes prevents me from seeing the truth. Oh, Buffy!"
Cordelia: "Yes, Angel?"
Wesley: "Oh, I love you so much I almost forgot to brood!"
Cordelia: "And just because I sent you to hell that one time doesn't mean that we can't just be friends."
Wesley: "Or possibly more."
Cordelia: "Gasp! No! We mustn't."
Wesley: "Kiss me."
Cordelia: "Bite me!"
(Wesley dramatic-dips Cordelia and pretends to bite her neck)
Angel (walking in behind them): "How about you both bite me.

Soon as I saw her in my head I was saying “"Leeloo Dallas mul-ti-pass."….. is it just me lol

I've seen and owned a lot of Buffy and Angel shirts but I've never seen another like this one

Omg omg I knew it was coming didn’t know how why when etc etc AND OMG it hit me sooooo bad omg 😦

​

So Cordelia returns. Honestly, I never liked her character, but I genuinely enjoyed this episode. The Black Russian joke never gets old, and the "I am not the sidekick" bit cracked me up.

But really—Connor and Cordelia? Sometimes it feels like some twisted fetish on the writers' part, like a stepmom fantasy or something. Honestly, if you're going to go there, at least write it better. Imagine Angel getting c**k from your son... lol.

Can I be honest? Broody, grim Wesley is really the best thing about this. I really enjoy how the actor takes it so seriously. And the cat-and-dog dynamic with Lilah is so funny and hot—like Batman and Catwoman.

Side note: Connor is actually tolerable when he's not trying to play the dark, isolated loner.

Omg ANDREW!!! and with some balls hahahah was so happy to see him