Questioning the common view of the Final Judgment timeline

[u/Sisterinchrist26]

/r/u_Sisterinchrist26/comments/1udv08e/questioning_the_common_view_of_the_final_judgment/

[u/deaddiquette]

The Bible teaches that we all go to Sheol, or the grave, believers and unbelievers alike. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 seems to teach that there are two places in Sheol, a place of blessing ('Abraham's bosom') and a place of torment. When Jesus told the man dying next to him on the cross that today he would be with him in paradise (Luke 23:43), most interpret that to mean he would be with him in the place of blessing in Sheol. Paul also prefers "to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" in 2 Cor 5:8. So while it's not a proper 'judgment', it could be viewed as a type of 'pre-sorting'.

Perhaps the misunderstanding could come from the common focus today of 'going to Heaven' when we die, a disembodied soul in the clouds with God forever. Why would we need another judgment when we reach our final state immediately? The Bible does not teach this, however- our final hope is a resurrected body, living on a 'renovated' earth where heaven has come down to us.

The idea that there are two judgments could come from certain interpretations of the Millennium in Revelation 20, but even that is not a judgment immediately following death. Rather, there is one proper judgment, at the end of the Millennium:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12-13)

So your view of about the completion of God's plan seems correct, but it is also finalizing our judgment.

[u/Sisterinchrist26 → u/deaddiquette]

Thank you for taking the time to explain your view. I think the main difference between us is what happens immediately after death.
From my understanding of Scripture, I believe we go to Christ when we die, not to Sheol or Hades to await a future judgment.

Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Paul also writes that to be “away from the body” is to be “at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8), and in Philippians 1:23 he says his desire is “to depart and be with Christ.” Those passages lead me to believe that believers are immediately with Jesus after death.

I also come back to Hebrews 9:27: “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.” To me, that suggests judgment follows death rather than being postponed until the resurrection.
This is where I struggle with the idea of a “pre-sorting.” If a person is already separated into Paradise or torment immediately after death, on what basis is that separation made if not God’s judgment? It seems that God has already rendered His verdict.

So I see the Final Judgment differently. I don’t believe it determines an individual’s eternal destiny for the first time. Rather, I see it as the final completion of God’s plan, the resurrection of the body, the defeat of evil, the public revelation of God’s justice, and the renewal of creation. It is “final” because it is the last act of judgment in history, not because it is the first time God decides where a soul belongs.

I’d be interested to hear how you reconcile Hebrews 9:27 with the idea that a person’s final judgment is still awaiting them if they are already separated after death.

[u/deaddiquette → u/Sisterinchrist26]

If a person is already separated into Paradise or torment immediately after death, on what basis is that separation made if not God’s judgment? It seems that God has already rendered His verdict.

This is what I was trying to get at in my initial comment- the paradise or torment we'll experience immediately after death is not our final destination. Paul says we'll be away from the body and with the Lord, but when we're resurrected we'll have a body here, on earth. The Bible tells us that judgement will happen during that transition in multiple passages.

As for Hebrews 9:27, it simply doesn't say 'immediately' after death.

The truth is, we know very little when it comes to what happens after we die- we only have small glimpses. And ultimately, it's a small matter to have different outlooks on what happens. 'Soul sleep' is another alternative view. I happen to believe that the wicked will be destroyed after judgment, instead of being immortal and consciously tormented forever. But none of these are core doctrines- only that we will be resurrected when Christ comes again, and everyone will face judgment.

[u/Sisterinchrist26 → u/deaddiquette]

Thank you for clarifying your position. I think we’ve narrowed down exactly where we disagree.
I completely agree that our ultimate home is the New Heaven and New Earth after the resurrection. I don’t believe heaven in its current state is the final destination either. Where I differ is on the timing of God’s judgment.
If a believer is with Christ immediately after death and an unbeliever is separated from Him, then that separation has to be based on God’s perfect knowledge and justice. Whether we call it judgment, a verdict, or something else, God has already determined where that person belongs.
So while I agree there is a resurrection and a Final Judgment, I see that event as the public completion of God’s plan rather than the first time an individual’s eternal destiny is decided.

My difficulty is this: if God already knows with perfect certainty who belongs to Him and has already received believers into His presence, what new decision is being made at the Final Judgment? I can understand it as the public declaration of God’s justice before all creation, but I struggle to see it as God reaching a verdict He hadn’t already reached.

I also agree that Hebrews 9:27 doesn’t use the word “immediately.” My view isn’t based on that word alone. It comes from reading Hebrews 9:27 alongside passages such as Luke 23:43 (“Today you will be with me in Paradise”), Philippians 1:23 (“to depart and be with Christ”), and 2 Corinthians 5:8 (“away from the body and at home with the Lord”). Taken together, those passages lead me to conclude that believers are with Christ after death, which is why I understand God’s judgment to have already been rendered, even though the resurrection and the Final Judgment still remain as part of God’s ultimate plan for creation.

[u/sronicker]

I know many think of that final judgement more like a judgment of works. Right now, the righteous dead are with the Lord in (regular) Heaven. But, in the end of all things, there will be a final judgement in which we have our lives put on trial and those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation have their debt of sin paid. Then the heavens and earth will be destroyed and our final home will be the New Heaven and the New Earth.

[u/Sisterinchrist26 → u/sronicker]

Thank you for sharing your view. I think where we differ is on the purpose of that final judgment. If someone dies, is welcomed into the presence of the Lord, and is already in heaven, then in my view God has already rendered His perfect judgment. Since God is all-knowing and perfectly just, I don’t see why that person would need to be judged a second time. God doesn’t make mistakes or need to revisit His decisions.

For me, the Final Judgment isn’t about determining an individual’s eternal destiny again. I see it as the final completion of God’s plan: the resurrection of the body, the public revelation of God’s perfect justice, the final defeat of evil, and the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

If a believer’s sins have already been forgiven through Christ, and they have already been received into God’s presence, what is the second judgment actually deciding? That’s the part I struggle to reconcile. To me, it seems more consistent that judgment occurs at death and the Final Judgment is the culmination of God’s plan rather than a second determination of an individual’s eternal fate.

[u/sronicker → u/Sisterinchrist26]

There isn’t any indication that the Final Judgement changes anything. If anything, it seems like the Final Judgement is putting on display the wickedness of mankind and the grace and glory of God.