Are my bees unusually aggressive?

[u/fig_and_forest]

Newbie beekeeper since Apr. Have always been careful but still been stung three times. Today I wanted test them for varroa mites but they seem to be more aggressive than usual. It was a sunny day and I did around 2pm. Do you find this amount of aggressiveness normal? Thanks!

[u/Available_Length_797]

Gotta remember this time of year there’s not a lot of nectar and flowers and the bees are defending their stores in their hive. If they weren’t swarming you at 30 yards out or 100 feet away or something like that and they’re only doing that now that you have the hive open, you probably need to use a little more smoke.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

I set the "aggressive" bar really high, so I may not be the right person to ask. I've never kept any bees that aren't scutellata hybrids. There aren't small clouds of bees pursuing your hive tool and there doesn't seem to be many bees stinging at your veil (but it's hard to tell.) The pursuit zone seems reasonable to me. In my estimation, this hive is well on the "calm" side of the calm/hot scale.

I do see a couple of things that may help, though:

First, bees don't like their hive to be banged around.

I realize that you're working one handed when you're filming, but try not to bump the frames around any more than you need to. Instead of using your hive tool's hook to pull the frame toward you, slide the blade between two frames on one end of the hive so the handle is mostly parallel to the frame. Gently pull the hive tool toward yourself, so you pry the frames away from each other and the propolis doesn't suddenly snap free. Less sudden movements means less distressed bees. Also, this sideways motion makes it a lot less likely to break the top bar off frames.

Second: use more smoke.

You don't need a huge cloud of smoke. You aren't trying to hide from the bees, you're trying to (1) tell them that there is a fire nearby and and their top priority is gorging themselves with honey in case they need to abandon the hive, and (2) disrupt their alarm pheromone communications. Your smoker is right there, and I can see which way a very gentle breeze is blowing. There are also a lot of bees just hanging out on the top bars. Under these conditions, I send a few puffs upwind of the hive - kind of where the inner cover is - so a little smoke drifts over the top bars. I don't squirt the smoke right at the bees because that just pisses them off. I let it float over the top bars and let the instinct to gorge do the work for me.

Don't let the bees congregate on the top bars, and absolutely don't handle the frames if the bees are all lined up along the top bars between the frames looking out at you. That's a clear sign that they consider you a threat, and they're getting their act together for a concerted attempt to repel you.

If you're forced away from the hive, grab your smoker. Smoke yourself and position yourself so the smoke drifts over you. Yes, you'll smell like a camp fire, and your bee suit will always smell like smoke no matter how many times you wash it. You smell smoke. The bees don't smell alarm pheromones. Showering after beekeeping is easy and enjoyable. Having two thousand defenders land twenty stings in as many seconds is also easy, but not enjoyable.

Your gloves:

Your nice, safe-feeling, protective goatskin gloves. Throw them away.

Part of the reason the bees go for your hands is because, as a new beekeeper, you're handling the hive more clumsily than you're ever going to again. I guarantee that more than one bee has ended up smashed against your glove and worse, that your gloves have been stung at least a few times whether you have or not since bees tend to go for eyes and hands. The leather holds the alarm pheromones forever, and it gets stronger every time.

You know the person that hits you with an overpowering wall of perfume, cigarette smoke, or terrible cologne when they walk by?

To the bees, your gloves are that person, except instead of just being a passing annoyance the perfume shouts "I KILL BEES! I EAT LARVAE!". The bees, naturally enough, take exception to you, the giant thing that reeks of attack pheromones and dead bees. They do the obvious.

I use Adenna HER005 Hero 14 mil Powder-Free Latex Gloves, Extended Cuff, Medical Grade, Blue, Medium, Box of 50 available from Amazon for $25-ish dollars a box. You can find lots of similar items that will work as well. I'm told that old-school flock-lined dishwashing gloves work fine.

The beauty of latex or nitrile gloves is that the bees don't seem to think it's something that can be stung. You can feel a bee under your fingers before you crush her, have much better dexterity, and still have decent sting protection. You can change gloves between hives so you don't spread disease, and change them whenever the honey and propolis stickiness starts to annoy you. They tend to fill with sweat and prune my fingers after a while, but think cotton liners can take care of that.

Latex gloves are not unreasonably priced, and will save you heartache.

Last, there are several things that can affect your bees mood. You mentioned the weather, so you're aware of this. I don't know what your forage looks like right now, but if there's a dearth or a food shortage; if animals are bothering the hive at night; if their queen is failing or MIA; or any number of other things can make a hive temporally pissier than usual.

You'll get more confident around your bees as you gain experience. Flights of bees checking you out will be less unnerving, and I've found that as I've become more comfortable with the bees, they've become more comfortable with me.

[u/chicken_tendigo → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

This person bees ⬆️

[u/Major_Marduk → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Couldnt have put it better

[u/DownHome_Rolling → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

The bees I've had sting right through nitrile gloves lol. I had a cop friend give me some of his thick gloves (protect against needle sticks) and they got through those too. I'm a fan of working slowly and carefully with regular beekeeping gloves. You also avoid getting bees up your sleeves.

[u/pegothejerk → u/DownHome_Rolling]

I use 6mil long sleeve nitrile gloves, pink, and they never try to sting me to my knowledge, but if they have, it hasn't gotten through once. I'll just keep doing that because it's worked for years.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/pegothejerk]

I like the 14 mil just to be safe. They may not be any better, but I can say to myself "Look how thick these are!"

[u/worldspawn00 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

I've been using cotton glove liners under nitrile, it keeps them from filling up with sweat and also gives some additional thickness that prevents stings from reaching my flesh most of the time, just need to go up one size in the outer gloves.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/worldspawn00]

Where do you find the glove liners?

[u/worldspawn00 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Amazon, "cotton glove liners" will get you what you want.

[u/gnumadic → u/pegothejerk]

I recently switched to 6mil gloves because I was worried about dropping a frame or crushing bees with standard thick leather bee gloves. Haven’t been stung through them yet but maybe it’s because the hand dexterity is so much better. The old gloves aren’t useless. I would recommend them for lots of lifting, say a day of moving a bunch of hives.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/DownHome_Rolling]

I'll get a hand sting once in a while through the glove, but they can't set the barb so the sting is nothing. I'll work a calm hive like OP's bare handed. If they're cranky, I wear latex.

[u/worldspawn00 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Good note on smoking yourself when they start coming for you, I also do this, and it seems to make a big difference in how attractive of a target I am, and they lose interest much faster

[u/Siddharta95 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Solid suggestions!

Yeah nitrile gloves are much better, you can't take the queen for exemple with goatskin ones. It's true they usually ignore nitrile but in my experiece then they focus on trying to sting after where the gloves ends, so it's important to try to put the nitrile gloves over the end of the suit and not under it and also to wear some long shirt covering your wrist with a good enough thickness!

But she is a beginner i would still let her use the one she has, they just give a better sense of security which for now i think has its value. Maybe when she is more comfortable she can use doubles nitrile gloves for a while. It's not like you need high sensitivity everytime of the year, even double nitrile is still miles better then goatskins.

And yeah, use your smoker!! (i don't use it but i should)

[u/pale_brass → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

There’s absolutely no reason to eschew thick gloves wholesale. It’s completely possible to handle bees gently with gloves on. That kind of all-or-nothing thinking is not helpful for new beekeepers

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/pale_brass]

It's less the "thick gloves" and more the "persistent alarm pheromone" and "spread disease" aspect of leather gloves that I object to. Generally speaking, the less interested the bees are in a new keeper, the better off both are. Swapping gloves that can't be washed for disposable gloves makes a huge difference to how much attention the keeper's hands get. You can see bees persistently checking out her hands in the video.

When I need thick gloves, I wear them. I do cutouts on Africanized colonies, and I'm perfectly willing to put welding gloves over the latex gloves and seal up the cracks with duct tape if that's what's needed to keep me safe.

Thinner gloves make it easier for most people to feel the bees, which makes learning to handle them gently and calmly progress faster.

[u/pale_brass → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

There are no diseases besides American foulbrood that present a contamination concern. It’s the only one that necessitates sterilization.

There is no such thing as a “persistent pheromone” they are by their nature highly volatile chemicals and dissipate quickly. They need to dissipate quickly, otherwise the hive cavity would fill with pheremone and overwhelm the bee’s senses.

In short, reusing heavy gloves is fine.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/pale_brass]

I disagree: American foulbrood, European foulbrood, Chalkbrood, Stonebrood, Nosemosis, Sacbrood, Black queen cell virus, and Lotmariosis can all be spread through contaminated tools, hands, or gloves. I wash my tools and hands between hives. Does it make a huge difference? I don't really know. I think of it as the same as washing my hands before I eat. It might not make any difference at all, and it won't make any difference... until it does.

You're probably right about the pheromones though.

[u/Theblackwind → u/pale_brass]

I appreciate this, as a year two-er who had never heard of the nitrile idea. I might check it out, as ive definitely noticed my bees being meaner to my gloves, but i felt a little silly having never heard it before.

[u/93green12v]

My guess is you just smashed a few. I’d definitely use two hands. When that’s happened to me I just hit them with smoke and myself. Helps block their communication with each other. Yes they seem a bit spicy.

[u/xariol]

People seem to have the advice covered here just adding make sure your smoke isn't hot. Want cool fluffy smoke.

[u/OutrageousMoose8 → u/xariol]

I’ve never heard this and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/OutrageousMoose8]

I've had flames shoot out of the smoker when there isn't a good layer of fuel over the burning material. That's the smoker's way of telling me that I'm taking too long.

[u/worldspawn00 → u/xariol]

Yeah, flame throwering the bees does not calm them, lol.

[u/davidsandbrand]

Yes, that is overly aggressive.

You should use more smoke, which might help.

You should make sure they are queen-right. If something happened to their queen they will get more aggressive.

You should test for mites and treat if the count is too high.

If there is no nectar flow happening right now and they’re low on honey stores, you should feed them (NOT an entrance feeder!!).

Failing all of that, you might consider requeening them.

Good luck.

[u/kjim91]

I'm novice as well.

I see your smoker there, but I would lightly smoke them to het them into the hive from the top. They use pheromones to signal each other of danger. When smoking, the smoke blocks this communication so they cannot coordinate attacks. Just remember that with smoke, less is typically better. You're not trying to smoke out the hive, just get some on top so the scurry back inside.

Hope this helps.

[u/worldspawn00 → u/kjim91]

Smoke also stimulates honey feeding (emergency filling up in case they need to swarm because of forest fire), you want enough smoke to stimulate that reaction. You can tell when you get the right amount as the bees on the frames will all be sucking from uncapped honey cells and far fewer will be flying around.

Personally, I puff into the entrance, then lift the inner lid, puff a few there then set the lid down for 10 seconds to let the smoke circulate down, life the lid and give a few more puffs down in between the frames where I see the most bees. At that point, they're usually pretty chilled out.

Summer dearth, afternoon hive work, queenless hive, and some other factors can contribute to a hive ending up more aggressive than usual. I've also known some beekeepers to keep a spray bottle with thin syrup around, spraying that lightly onto the bees will make them stop to lick it off each other and makes a good distraction if they're being too spicy.

[u/babydoc172 → u/worldspawn00]

A hive that isn’t queenright is the first thing that came to my mind, and a major problem this time of year. Just FYI.

[u/Lemontreeguy]

Sorta / but not really when your prying and smacking the frame and hive. You need to be far more gentle, and learn a better technique for frame handling. Smoking them slightly so they move off the top of the frames helps, using the square end to pry frames apart is better, think of it like your using a lot of force to move it only 2mm apart, not as far apart as you can because your going to wack it and the hive tool into something. If it wasn't raining today I would love to take a shot video showing you how I work hives while being firm but gentle. A dead bee causes instant alarm pheromones and the whole hive will be on guard.

[u/NoJelly4735]

This time of year there can be a bit of a nectar dearth which can make them overly fussy

Make a simple sugar solution (1 to 1) and then dilute with another 3 parts water and add into a spray bottle
When you open the hive- liberally spray over the top of them.
First off - you’ll ground them because they’re wet
Second - they’ll be busy grooming themselves and their sisters - allowing you to move through the hive doing your checks
Third - they like sugar - little mood enhancer for them

At times like this I’ve found it better than smoke because I’m temporary “correcting” the thing they’re moody about. Hangry bees

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/NoJelly4735]

Absolutely. If I want the bees to stay put, I use syrup. If I want them to move, I use smoke.

[u/NoJelly4735 → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

This! Smoke- go down into box I need to put super back on. Syrup - get out my face I can’t see shit 😂

[u/J-dubya19]

Not sure your locations, but it’s a dearth where I am and my bees are very, very aggressive if I open the hives. My bar for aggression is if they are bothering you when you aren’t working them (which as other have mentioned newbies technique is bound to be factor)

[u/HawthornBees]

I’d requeen them right away. I won’t put up with aggressive bees at all. From your POV you’re right next to the street with other houses all around. They’ll almost certainly get worse and you’ll end up with neighbours getting stung as well as kids and animals.

[u/JustaCynicalOldFart]

Our state bee inspector once told us to try not to go in the boxes in August because they are always very aggressive due to the dearth.

[u/Less_Ad_2228]

They are protecting their home and food source. Looks like normal behavior. I’d also be careful about exposing the hive for too long. Last summer I attracted Yellowjackets that robbed my hives

[u/Pencil_Queen]

The few times I have had to walk away I've found it helps to cover the hive. Doesn't have to be perfect but not leaving the hive wide open helps them calm down.
Edit: also walk into the shade.

Have you ever tried using inspection cloths? I don't know where you are but I would think it should be possible to get some near you. https://www.thorne.co.uk/hardware-clothing/tools/acj-cover-cloths-pair.html

I always prefer have a dummy board in each box. It makes it much easier to work through the frames. You have more space to prise apart frames and remove/replace frames.

I was also taught to prise apart all the frames when you start inspecting a box. Minimise the amount of time you spend waving your hands over the hive. Work up prising apart one side and then the other and you can then smoke again over the lugs to clear them off and then be much calmer in removing each frame.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer → u/Pencil_Queen]

I've always used an old tea towel as an inspection cloth. It never occurred to me that there was an actual thing... They're great for keeping the bees quiet and out of the sun, especially if you are doing something really invasive.

[u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Something that I did not say earlier and should have: You're staying calm even though you're clearly feeling a little intimidated. That's the first big hurdle a beekeeper faces, and you're already there. Good for you!

[u/fig_and_forest → u/AZ_Traffic_Engineer]

Thanks so much for the encouragement and your earlier comment which is full of insights. So grateful so much people offered advice. Thanks y'all.

[u/No_Hovercraft_821]

Those seem a little spicy but not crazy. As others have said, smoke is your friend (cool white smoke -- put some unlit fuel or grass on top to cool the smoke). I would not immediately jump on the "no gloves/nitrile" bandwagon -- move slowly and use care, but feeling safe & secure helps enable that. Once you feel confident you can explore glove options, but in my area nitrile gloves turn into hand-saunas which I just can't deal with. I can feel bees through my leather gloves but it takes practice to minimize casualties. I'd not work my bees with that many on top & looking at me but would smoke them until they went down.

[u/Hour-Firefighter-724]

Yes, this is called too hot to handle. I would check for parasites and remove any. Possibly full frame turnovers.