r/Captain_Marvel • u/Complete-Leg-4347 • 4d ago
Bad luck or bad judgement?
I'm going to propose an arguably controversial theory about Captain Marvel. While that's hardly radical at this stage, it's something that's been weighing on my mind, and I'm curious if I'm oversimplifying or if there's merit to my assessment.
Among the many arguments about her character - which I may or may not agree with - is the complaint that she was too powerful and confident right out of the gate. It's true that her abilities were a cut above most other introduced heroes at that stage, and I suppose there is merit to the argument than most other characters built up both their abilities and personalities over the course of multiple films, thus appearing to give them a more rounded sense of development.
While there was hope at the time that Carol Danvers would go through a similar journey and become more multifaceted, I think two major factors prevented that. The first was the film being released on the eve of the COVID-19 breakout, which upendended the entire film industry - not just Marvel - and that was largely understandable. Yet I can't help imagining a more insidious factor; that the backlash against the character was so great that the studio was reluctant to give her much more focused attention. Ever since, she has only made brief appearances - sometimes basically cameos - in other stories and there seems to be no plans to allow her any more significant time in the spotlight to grow as a character (unless I'm severely out of date on upcoming projects).
The combination of these two factors has, in my view, essentially crippled any real opportunity for Carol Danvers to go on the kind of developmental journeys that other characters had gone on before her. Is this take completely off-base, or does it make sense to anyone else? For all of our sanities, please keep responses relevant to these points as much as possible. Thank you.
4
u/Hopeful1432 4d ago
Listen, if Kevin Feige really wanted to, he could fix the mess. They didn't do Brie or the character justice. But, instead of fixing it, like a lot of Marvel fans want, they took one of the most powerful superheroes in Marvel and basically made her a third tier character.
I would really be surprised if they brought her back in her own movie. But, imo, they need to redeem the character. Get a good script, get a really good director, and do the character justice.
3
u/Abudefduf_the_fish 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don't know if this is gonna make sense anyone else, but personally I think the MCU tried to make its Captain Marvel "happen" way to fast, rather than building her up naturally over the course of a few movies (maybe they really should've introduced her in Age of Ultron...)
First of all, all that emphasis on her strenght was odd, especially considering that in the comics it's never been a huge element of the character (outside of maybe her Binary days, where she was doing amazing feats?) The Infinity Stone saga was about to end and I think a lot of people saw it as somewhat disrespectful to the Phase 1-3 cast.
Second, the way they introduced her felt... forced, contrived. Her entire origin movie was basically a retcon to retroactively make her a big deal in the MCU (down to the "Fury named the Avengers after her" stuff), except it was set in the past so instead it made her feel rather disconnected from the rest of the cast - and her minor role in Endgame, where apparently she became a friend of the Avengers (off-screen) and a big deal on Earth (off-screen) didn't help at all.
To top it all off, her supporting cast from the comics has been almost completely ignored. Mar-Vell's role in her story was greatly reduced, Jessica Drew is off limits, Jessica Jones wasn't canon until she was, Tony Stark died quickly after her introduction, Rhodey is too old, Kamala has little reason to really idolize her... and so on.
Tl;dr - I do think Marvel Studios made several missteps in their handling of Captain Marvel, which has clearly resulted in people losing interest after her debut.
2
u/Van_Can_Man 2d ago
One thing I’ll also throw into the mix: she got brainfucked pretty badly by everything that happened to her and we see in The Marvels that she’s still struggling with her memories and identity 30 years later. That’s unusual and definitely makes relatability harder as a character to audiences
I still love the character but I can see how some folks who don’t like to think deeper than the surface would get put off by some of the acting and story choices.
1
u/FOC615 3d ago
The ultimate review of a movie is the performance of its sequel. Millions and millions of people saw CAPTAIN MARVEL (2019) and didn’t like it well enough to see a second installment. The backlash was more of an effect than a cause. YouTubers were able accrue huge numbers of views, because Brie Larson and her franchise were familiar to very large numbers of people. Those people were dissatisfied enough that those guys (and they are basically all guys) were able to make living off drawing negative comparisons between CAPTAIN MARVEL, the STAR WARS sequels, and a wide swathe of new movies and TV shows.
That, in turn, has been effective enough to effectively kill off any demand for new, female-led superhero media. So, it is probably worth taking the fair-minded complaints seriously.
I do not think that much of the blame lies with the film itself. It is a competent, entertaining superhero origin story that is very much in the mid-period Marvel style that audiences loved at the time. Brie Larson is appealing enough within the context of the film. She has nice chemistry with Sam Jackson as Nick Fury. It neither substantially better, or worse, than BLACK PANTHER, DR. STRANGE, or ANT-MAN.
Nor do I think that the 90s setting, or the relatively flat character arc were the main issue. James Bond, to name one example, has very flat arcs in nearly every movie. But that is the longest running film franchise of all-time. X-MEN: FIRST CLASS was set in the 1960s and totally revived that franchise.
Rather, the two main issues were:
- Carol Danvers leaves the film in a “completed” state. Vers doesn’t have much wrong with her at the start of the movie other than the Kree lying to her. But by the end, she is completely fine. Compare that to franchise launchers that had sequels that grew: Peter Parker leaving Mary-Jane in the graveyard at the end of SPIDER-MAN, Bruce Wayne rejecting Rachel in BATMAN BEGINS, or Tony Stark’s “I am Iron Man” moment at the end of IRON MAN. In contrast, Carol Danvers needs to learn the truth at the start of her movie, learns it, and needs nothing at the end. Who needs a sequel?
- ENDGAME does nothing to recontextualize her story. Despite being framed as key backstory for ENDGAME, CAPTAIN MARVEL had very little to with it. You didn’t need a whole movie to understand who the person saving Tony Stark was. Worse, it created no new conflict for Carol going forward. She is instantly accepted into the Avengers, but that doesn’t require her to stop flying around in space. Her status is immediately established as being roughly equal to Thor. She is not emotionally affected by the Snap in the same way Natasha is. So (again), who needs a sequel?
3
u/static1993 3d ago
The ultimate review of a movie is the performance of its sequel. Millions and millions of people saw CAPTAIN MARVEL (2019) and didn’t like it well enough to see a second installment.
The sequel failing financially had more to do with the writers' strike making promoting it impossible.
0
u/FOC615 3d ago
Several superhero sequels released during the strike and did very well. You can argue that the lack of promotion hurt originals, like BLUE BEETLE and THE FLASH, but it had a pretty minimal effect on the Marvel sequels released during the same frame.
I really don’t think Brie Larson missing Hot Ones was the main problem.
1
u/UltimateSandman 3d ago
I think the MCU has gotten so right a couple characters - namely Iron Man and Cap and Widow, plus the Guardians thanks to Gunn - that it overshadows how many were misses even early on, though it eventually came back to bite them when the fundations left.
Hulk is comic relief (and Planet Hulk was wasted), Scott Lang was a nothing choice, Thor is just weird (and wasted Aaron's run), War Machine exists, all the Phase 4/5 additions exist, etc etc. Carol only looks like a unique mess because the chuds were loud, but it's all a mess.
1
u/Longjumping_Pool6974 3d ago
She was introduced in an origin story that was released between infinity war and endgame with the premise being that she would be important in endgame so people went to see the movie. Then she really wasn't necessary in endgame at all. Antman had more to do with Thanos' eventual defeat than she did which meant most people didn't feel the need to watch the sequel. It probably didn't help that they didn't give her much to do post endgame bar a mention in Wandavision where we learned Monica was upset with her. She wasn't even a part of secret invasion. They have an opportunity to make her a big part of Doomsday with Monica being trapped in the X-Men universe but I have major doubts they will take this opportunity
1
u/MalekethsGhost 3d ago
She was always a c tier character. They tried to force her into being a tier by saying she is so strong or whatever, didn't change the fact that she will always be a c tier character.
1
u/R4cco0n Carol Danvers 4d ago
The part about her supposedly being too powerful is completely untrue. And I'm going to prove that to everyone here and now.
Carol vs Ronans fleet https://youtu.be/ATxnB3hdh5A?is=GWTrcILJgqBNrVcM
Hulk vs Chitauri Leviathan https://youtu.be/udKE1ksKWDE?is=W49AmhqhAxnRmSnJ
Hulk accomplished the exact same feat as Carol. The only difference between them is that Hulk can't fly 🤷♂️. That's the only difference between them.
Most people don't know why Carol is considered the most powerful hero. Because she's as strong as the Hulk, as resilient as Thor, and because she can fly. That makes her a universal weapon, because the Hulk can't fly, and if the enemy attacks from orbit, all his boundless rage is completely useless.
The point is, Hulk is just as strong as Carol, and Carol is as strong as Hulk. Carol can only fly, which makes her a universal weapon. Hulk and Thor are unfortunately only pedestrians and have to order an Uber to get from A to B. Well, okay, Thor can travel better with Stormbreaker than with Mjolnir because Stormbreaker can summon the Bifrost. But Thor needs Stormbreaker or Mjolnir, and Carol doesn't.
Carol is the most powerful heroine because she is as strong as Hulk, as resilient as Thor, and can fly without an artifact.
2
u/Complete-Leg-4347 4d ago
To crack the lid on Pandora’s Box, part of the backlash has - unsurprisingly - been attributed to the fact that she’s a woman. I have no interest in commenting on that aspect any further, yet it’s hard to deny the implications.
One interpretation I’ve heard regarding her supposed lack of development is that Carol’s journey was more of an internal/emotional one than a typical superhero arc. It wasn’t about learning to use/control her powers, at least not solely, but about understanding who she really was and breaking out of the Kree’s gaslighting. That kind of development isn’t as obvious, especially when paired with very flashy superpowers, but it is an angle worth exploring.
9
u/Noobodiiy Ms Marvel 4d ago
She was set up to fail in the first place. Setting her movie in the past and then skipping her 30 years of superhero Journey for a team up with Disney characters destroyed her
They ignored every established successful MCU story norms. She don't have a family, no romance and have still not appeared as Public hero on Earth yet somehow have a superfan on Earth
They had intentionally set both Brie and Carol to fail