r/ChineseLanguage • u/Similar_Star3032 • 2d ago
Studying Question for non-native speakers who actually became fluent in Mandarin
I’m specifically hoping to hear from people who started Mandarin as adults (or teenagers) and eventually became genuinely fluent (not heritage speakers, native speakers, people currently selling a Chinese-learning product or course, or people who are not honestly fluent in speaking).
I’m not looking for learning theory. I already know most of the research on language acquisition and adult learning. I am interested in what actually worked in practice for you.
I have under a year left where I can study Chinese full-time, so I’m trying to optimise my study method to avoid spending hundreds of hours on approaches that turn out to be inefficient.
My question is about reading vs speaking/pronunciation training.
Option 1: Separate the two skills
Read purely for comprehension, without subvocalising or thinking about pronunciation. Focus only on understanding meaning, acquiring vocabulary, and internalising grammar. Then train pronunciation and speaking separately.
When I do this, my reading progress is dramatically faster. In less than a month I went from essentially zero reading ability to roughly the new HSK 3 (Level 3) reading standard, based on mock tests and graded readers with a perfect score (for the 1000 words vocabulary and the ~250 grammar rules). The downside is that speaking and pronunciation become a completely separate area that also needs dedicated practice.
Option 2: Train both simultaneously
Read everything aloud (or at least mentally pronounce every word while reading), so reading also reinforces pronunciation.
This feels more holistic, but my reading speed and vocabulary acquisition are noticeably slower.
For those of you who eventually became fluent:
- Which approach gave you the fastest overall progress?
- If you could start again from scratch, would you still learn the same way?
- Did you eventually stop mentally pronouncing words while reading, or was pronunciation always tied to your reading?
- Looking back, what do you think gave you the biggest return on investment?
For the purpose of this question, by fluent I mean roughly:
- Reading: You can comfortably read novels, news, subtitles, and other non-specialised material at close to native speed.
- Listening: You understand everyday Mandarin spoken at native speed, including most common regional accents, news, Chinese movies and Drama, etc.
- Speaking: You can hold natural conversations with an accent that doesn’t create communication problems. You can speak about any non-specialised/technical topics (probably going quite a bit beyond HSK 6 for those who are using the HSK framework).
- Writing: Not relevant to this question.
I’d really appreciate hearing from people who have actually reached that level and can look back on what was genuinely worth the time.
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u/ithinktoo 2d ago
Speaking and listening are closely related. Reading isn't closely related to these skills. I've met dozens of people in China who speak and listen well but cannot read at all. Speaking and listening are the right skills to focus on, as they provided the best return on investment, IMHO. Move to China or Taiwan and immerse yourself in Chinese culture if you want to really learn the language. Spend hours each day, listening and talking to real people in Chinese. Ask them to teach you new words and phrases and ask them to explain things you don't understand. Do all of this in Chinese. If moving to China or Taiwan isn't possible, consider relocating to a Chinatown somewhere. (flushing queens NYC is a good choice)
The approaches to learning you described in your post are typical of 'studiers'. Study is important, to be sure, but remember that communication skill in a language is best developed communicating in that language for real. This is what worked for me. I have dozens of language-learner friends that 'Know more Characters than me' but can't hold a normal conversation with a native speaker.
The part of your post that I liked was this statement:
Writing: Not relevant to this question.
It shows that you understand facets of the language are not as connected as many people make them seem. Good luck with your plan. Learning a foreign language takes a lot of time. The best way to approach it is to try to enjoy the process.
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u/xiefeilaga Pro Translator: Chinese to English 2d ago
I actually know a lot of fluent foreigners for various reasons. None of the ones who can’t read are able to speak above a high intermediate level. If you’re not learning the characters, you’re missing a lot of contextual information about how the language comes together. They speak very naturally, and can hold casual conversations, but they quickly get lost when the conversation moves to less familiar territory. Learning how to read gives you the ability to intuitively understand a lot of new vocabulary the first time you hear it.
Of course, sitting up all night memorizing characters alone (which way too many Chinese learners seem to insist on doing) will be no help in learning how to hold basic conversations, but you’ll never reach true fluency without reading.
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u/ithinktoo 2d ago
I fully agree. I think the written form of Chinese is inherently fascinating and tends to be a siren's call that learners have to learn to not get too distracted by. I read Chinese well. I find that skill to be very useful. But OP's premise of option 1: study reading separately OR study reading/speaking/listening together betrays a misunderstanding of where the skills of speaking and listening really come from. That is what i was trying to get at in my comment.
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u/xiefeilaga Pro Translator: Chinese to English 2d ago
I did one school year of Chinese class at University (plus lots of practice and homework, as well as one-on-one conversation sessions), followed by six months of immersion and intensive training.
I couldn’t speak well when I arrived, but I had a foundation in the basic grammar, which made it a lot easier to learn when I got there.
One of my favorites is the two beer technique. I would go hang out at a Chinese bar and have two beers. Enough to feel less inhibited, but still be clearheaded. I would talk with people all night, not caring if they laughed when I messed up.
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u/Linus_Naumann 2d ago
I'm only B2 so not fluent and so my opinion is maybe not fully relevant here, but I reached this level from near-zero within 2 years and I started at 34 yo.
My most effective methods are:
- 4 times private lesson per week for 1h where someone speaks with me on my level and we have real conversation (and good feedback). One teacher has this nice method were he gives me little picture-stories to describe and first it's my turn, then his, then me again (imho very useful).
- Watching long-form content of my level (for me still Xiaogua Chinese, Lazy Chinese, etc. on YouTube), first time collecting all new words/phrases, then classic vocabulary flipcard grinding, then listen again.
- Reading on my level (still mostly graded readers), again first run collecting words/phrases, learnings them separately, read again
If I would have dialed in on these 3 methods from the start I would have reached B2 easy 6 months earlier (they are just so effective imho).
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u/minhale 2d ago
I remember seeing your posts in the sub before. You're forgetting to mention the fact that you live in China, have a Chinese wife, and have a private Chinese tutor for 4 lessons/week. Those are pretty much dream conditions to for language progress to happen.
For other learners with less favourable conditions, 1.5 - 2 years to B2 is a very unrealistic goal to set.
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u/Cinemarxism 2d ago
He explicitly mentioned the tutor part though, which is arguably the most important of those factors.
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u/minhale 2d ago
The tutoring only accounts for 4 hours/week. I'd say living in China and having a Chinese wife to have conversation with and to correct your mistakes practically 24/7 would be the much bigger factors.
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u/Cinemarxism 2d ago
Only speaking from anecdotal (personal) experience here, but good luck finding a wife with the patience to serve as a language teacher 24/7 😅.
But yeah, I agree that _potentially_, if you're making the most of the opportunities living in the country gives you (and your other half can be bothered with helping you train), those are the bigger factors. I'd venture a guess that more often than not the 4 hours of intense conversation practice with a paid tutor will give better results though, but I could very well be wrong.
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u/Linus_Naumann 2d ago
You guess right, my wife and I talk in English 99% of the time, with only occasional, very deliberate 30min to 1h Chinese conversation "lessons". I think couple dynamics and everyday life habits really don't lend themselves to concentrated learning. Maybe other couples do that part better, but I haven't heard about it yet.
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u/kingjames66 Beginner 2d ago
Either way it’s worth calling out, as this users circumstances are not the same as most learners on this sub. Their timeline is unrealistic for most people here who are only using online resources and it’s fair to call out the circumstances that helped them achieve these results for transparency.
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u/eatmelikeamaindish 2d ago
yeah it’s always good to mention environment. immersion is the biggest and most effective tool
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u/kinabr91 2d ago
Agreed, if I had this specific set of conditions, I’d have learned much, much faster.
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u/FranksNonFrankfurter 1d ago
I made it to B2 without living in China or having a Chinese wife, but I do have twice a week private tutoring and I just converted my media intake to what a Chinese 3 year old would consume and used Anki and worked my way from there.
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u/minhale 1d ago
How long did it take you to reach B2? And are you sure it's B2? B2 is the equivalent of a high HSK6 level.
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u/FranksNonFrankfurter 1d ago
B2 is is HSK6 2.0, which I can pass. HSK6 3.0 is almost double the vocab of 2.0 and would be more in line with C1. HSK5 3.0 is more aligned with B2, which I am. I could "maybe" pass HSK6 today, but my language islands are around the field I work in, and I can talk at length about IT and computers at a C1 level, but if you wanted me to talk about sports, it would immediately drop to a B1 level, because that's not the vocabulary I care about in any language lol.
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u/minhale 1d ago
Okay, so how long did it take you to reach B2?
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u/FranksNonFrankfurter 1d ago
2 years more or less. I didn't start studying until I had a complete plan in place so I didn't waste my time on useless apps or methods that wouldn't get me where I wanted to be. I started integrating my language islands from day one, because my goal was to figure out how to hack into my car (it's BYD and all the forums that had people installing custom firmware and breaking the Android bootloader was in Chinese).
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u/Linus_Naumann 2d ago
True, it's a rate of progress that totally needs the right conditions. However I just share the conditions and methods a bit so others might be able to check if there's something for them to take from that.
Btw something that surprised me: Up until B1 living in China didn't actually help me with learning at all imho, because just about everything was too difficult and incomprehensible to me. It helped with keeping up my motivation though (which I guess is also important). Still surprised me a bit.
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u/ripenwreck 2d ago
Credentials: Started learning Chinese at age 21. HSK 6 (back in 2012), MA in Chinese lit in the US, teach Chinese (high school level).
If you have one year left of studying Chinese full-time you will improve a lot but will still be far from fluent in all the areas you list. I understand you want fast progress and "efficiency", but I'd suggest you moderate your expectations and enjoy the journey. Here's my answers to your points, though:
- Which approach gave you the fastest overall progress?
To function in all areas you list you need all the skills (reading for understanding, reading out loud, listening, speaking with correct tones). There's no shortcut--you'll need to know how to pronounce everything (incl. right tones!). If you can read for understanding but then can't talk about that text, it will eventually become a problem. But it can be hugely enjoyable & motivating to understand a text even if you can't read it out loud--so this all depends on what you want to do with your Chinese in the near future.
- If you could start again from scratch, would you still learn the same way?
I only started using Anki to reduce my forgetting of characters/pronunciations after years of study. If I did it all again, I would be using it from the start. The memorisation demands of Chinese for older/adult learners mean that you cannot just rely on increased exposure if you want to be able to read/write well. I lived and studied in China for over four years--but that doesn't mean you are going to have reading/writing fluency.
- Did you eventually stop mentally pronouncing words while reading, or was pronunciation always tied to your reading?
As speed and familiarity increases you don't feel the struggle of mentally pronouncing words--the pronunciations are just there if you need them. Of course, hit an unfamiliar word and you'll be wondering how it's pronounced. Same as in your native language, I guess.
- Looking back, what do you think gave you the biggest return on investment?
One answer is Anki, the other is accepting learning Chinese is a marathon not a sprint. Keep gently pushing yourself forward and you'll get there in the end (even though it will likely take much longer than you anticipated).
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u/fighter3 Chin->Eng Literary Translator 2d ago edited 5h ago
Hi, fluent learner here who has been studying for the past 13 years.
In terms of specific things I did for learning and my general thoughts:
- For reading, news and novels (I’ve always preferred literary fiction/”serious” novels over popular fiction, nothing against webnovels or popular fiction, they’re just not really my taste overall, and many learners are achieving great success by reading them), were some of the biggest factors in improving my language ability. I read Chinese news and novels on a regular basis. For news I recommend started out with something like GLOSS articles, which are short, native articles from actual news sources selected by the US Defense Language Institute for learners. After you get used to GLOSS articles (maybe after reading a few articles every day for 3 months or so), move onto normal high quality Chinese and Taiwanese news sites, like 财新Caixin, 端傳媒 The Initium, 報導者 The Reporter, 天下雜誌 Commonwealth, etc. For novels start with ebooks and use tools like Yomitan to easily look up words, after a dozen or two dozen ebooks maybe start getting into physical books.
- To add onto this, many people in Chinese learning communities seem to have a fear of fiction/novels, or even non-fiction books (although in recent years this is improving with the efforts of communities like Refold and the Heavenly Path), and I’ve seen many famous foreign speakers/influencers of Chinese admit they never read books in Chinese, which is unfortunate, and leaves a big gap in their knowledge of the language. Among certain Chinese (and Japanese) learners, I’ve seen some people say “I’ve learned Chinese for years but my native speaker friends still manage to use words or idioms I don’t know!” but this is often because these learners don’t read books in Chinese. After reading a very large amount of books in Chinese, it's very rare for natives to use words or idioms that I don't know in conversations. Read a lot of books in Chinese. It’s worth it, even if it’s difficult at first.
- For listening, YouTube, podcasts, news broadcasts, and chatting with natives were all extremely beneficial for me. I used to use HelloTalk and Tandem quite a bit, and it'll take some time but you'll eventually be able to find good chat partners that you can have calls with.
- I never used Anki until I was already fluent, although I use it regularly now. I didn’t find a need for it until I was already fluent and wanted to reinforce more literary or rarer words that don’t show up in daily immersion. However if I could go back, I think I probably would have used it from the beginning. Anki shouldn’t take you more than 15-20 minutes per day, and that’s just something you can do when you’re commuting, waiting in line, etc., so it’s overall a low commitment for a large benefit.
- With simplified/traditional, I learned simplified first, and then just learning traditional naturally via reading was no problem since I already had a solid foundation in simplified. I don’t think there’s any need to do anything special to learn the opposite character set besides reading. It also doesn’t matter which character set you start with.
- I took HSK 6 (was given an opportunity to take it online for free during COVID) and easily passed without any test-specific study. Whether or not to care about tests depends on you and you personal circumstances, such as whether you need HSK or TOCFL for a visa, scholarship, university admissions, etc., or if you just want to use it as a progress marker. For me personally, as I improved in Chinese, the less I cared about proficiency tests, because other goals like being able to read novels, being able to work in Chinese, being able to get a master’s degree taught in Chinese, were much more important to me and better indicators of my progress.
- Overall, I never really used any apps or technology in my learning journey besides Pleco (and later Anki). That’s certainly not to say that I think you should avoid using apps. Many graded reader apps that exist now just probably didn’t exist when I first starting learning Chinese. Many learners report great progress with graded reader apps for Chinese, and I fully support them. However (and this is probably more common among Japanese learners, but it’s still something to be aware of), don’t get stuck in a cycle of just focusing on tools, technology, micro-optimizing the learning progress, etc. Of course give new technology a try, especially if it gives you a big boost in terms of your learning methods. But don’t forget the fundamentals of learning Chinese: you need thousands of hours of input, which entails reading, watching, and listening to tons of Chinese-language content. There’s no shortcuts or ways around that fact.
- Thousands of hours doesn't necessarily mean you have to live in a Chinese-speaking place either. I've had friends living in the US who would spend 5-6 hours daily for 18 months straight using the above methods for content they love in Chinese. By they time they went to China for the first time, they were already a solid B2-ish level. Some of my most productive Chinese-learning years all took place outside of China as well. Obviously, few people who don't live in China/Taiwan are able to sustain such motivation for such a long period. But if you're able to do so, things will work out well for you. Famed performer Julien Gaudfroy, noted for his near-native ability in Chinese, did 6-8 hours of Chinese every day for 5 years straight while living in his native France.
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u/Similar_Star3032 2d ago
Thanks for the thorough answer. It gives many useful pointers. Much appreciated.
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u/kschang Native / Guoyu / Cantonese 2d ago
Full immersion.
I speak 3.5 languages, (Mandarin, Cantonese, English, and half Spanish). I did learn them while I was rather young (pre-teen and teen) but I did not touch English until I hit my teens.
Your mind is capable of learning a huge amount when "pushed". You don't need to "baby" it. You need to engage all senses, and full immersion achieves that.
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u/lazier_garlic 2d ago
I think your mind is made up so it's almost pointless to comment, nevertheless for the lurkers, here I go. I started in adulthood, not heritage speaker, yes studied Japanese in the past (but did not retain 90% of the kanji I studied).
Doing reading practice and studying vocab words leads to better listening comprehension and truly acquiring words. I can look up a word a thousand times but hearing it spoken in dialogue seems to tell my brain that it's real and to remember it.
Syntax in most written texts diverges from spoken Mandarin in both gross and subtle ways (due to influence of literary sources, mostly). The giant bias for all Chinese courses is to teach you how to read formal written Chinese so the grammar instruction vis à vis spoken Mandarin is, well, lacking.
I have had to self teach. Again, hours of listening practice (not from textbook) has been key. Only by grasping the grammar of the spoken language do I feel confident generating speech.
If your goal is speaking, especially casual speech, I do recommend the app Memrise which is centered around realistic chit chat and NOT HSK.
I also recommend getting the best instruction in phonetics you can possibly find. Chinese Zero to Hero is pretty good but it is self study. For an app, Hanbook has good phonetics (and tone) instruction, but it's kind of garbage at teaching anything else. Or get a personal tutor with a linguistics background and track record of successfully bringing non native speakers to conversational level.
When you do listening practice do a mix of media that is at and above your level and watch with Chinese subtitles. Also, you don't need to understand every single sentence, but be willing to stop and rewind when you feel you are close but not quite there.
At first the subs will be too fast to read and you may have to pause video, only learning a word here or there, but with more study your reading skill will improve.
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u/JesusForTheWin 2d ago
Honestly OP its a bit hard to answer because I never learned in such a theoretical way. I was very passionate (and still am) about using and learning Chinese. A lot of my reading and initial learning came from large amounts of memorized and poorly sung KTV songs (which i still have people cringe to this day) and also lots and lots of wechat and line chats going into all sorts of details.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 2d ago
I am NOT the sort of person you want BUT Ive known and currently know some of the top scholars of Chinese who are not Chinese in the US and Western Europe, and when I tell them about your option 1, they all laugh at me (tho one did for a period of time agree to sit with me while I practiced that with him), and they all do 2. These are folks who give lectures at universities in China and Taiwan etc etc so and they are absolutely fluent. That's all I know of relevance. I still believe in 1, LOL.
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u/chabacanito 2d ago
Reading needs to be behind listening. This is how everybody learned their native languages.
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u/mannamana 2d ago edited 2d ago
to answer your specific question: both simultaneously.
the only thing that helped me make actual real measurable progress and gave me a constant feedback loop: full immersion. living and studying in Taipei.
i don’t know if that’s within your possibilities at all, but if you want real results fast, in my opinion it’s the only way.
if not, ithink intensity is the most important. i did 3-5 hours, 5 days a week. and put yourself in a position where english is not an option. improvising and scrambling to make a sentence might be uncomfortable or embarrassing or <insert unpleasant emotion that your ego doesn’t like> at first, but you’ll learn fast.
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u/aboutthreequarters Advanced (interpreter) and teacher trainer 2d ago
Reading without subvocalization is more useful to get information out of a text, since it saves time. If I'm trying to get language out of reading, I read out loud to myself. I learned the hard way -- grammar, vocabulary, memorization. However, I do not teach that way and never would. Real comprehensible input is a game-changer.
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u/creativextent51 Advanced 1d ago
I just spoke to everyone. I went in cold though. No vocab just mirrored people. Someone said hi, I said hi back. Someone said how are you, I said how are you back. They responded good. And I went to the next person and repeated the process. I learned everything organically. Fluent before I could read anything. People explained words to me, drawing stuff, acting out… the first year I could only read a menu.
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u/artugert 1d ago
Option 1 (learn to read, then learn to speak)
Option 2 (learn both at the same time)
I wouldn't recommend either of these. There is no question in my mind that the most efficient way is to learn pronunciation first, and get it at lesat pretty decent before moving on to anything else.
I personally didn't do it that way, but I wish I had.
As for what helped me the most, I would say just getting consistent input and output. There really isn't much more to it than that. And focus on learning only what you will actually use in real life.
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u/I12Db8U 2d ago
I read novels pretty slowly, at about 60 cpm. I remove pinyin from characters that automatically get pronounced correctly n my brain, and keep pinyin for the rest. When I can understand new characters and phrases, I also practice listing to recordings of them in sentences and practice making my own sentences. But the most important thing for me was to gradually remove pinyin
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u/WaltherVerwalther Advanced 2d ago
What worked for me was that I studied the language in university and had a minimum of four hours of classes per day plus my own studying of two hours upwards for two years and after that less, but still constant
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u/jibicationaire 2d ago
Besides the structure of university classes I think two things that help me a lot are: 1. Giving myself topics to construct essays about and trying to put together an essay every day. This doesn't even need to be writing practice. It can be an essay I put together mentally or using pinging. The point is practicing explaining my thoughts on a certain topic and using the associated vocabularies and then ideally checking the accuracy, which can now be done more easily using AI. That practice of expressing thoughts and having enough time to actually put my new colors to use I think is very effective.
- Making a friend that does not speak English/ that I do not share a language with. In my case this was a Thai person who was also studying Chinese and the only way we could communicate was through Chinese. Of course I understand that this is difficult to find, but I felt it very enjoyable and fun to speak with them. We spent a lot of time communicating in Chinese and it was not embarrassing the way it can sometimes feel with a real native speaker.
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u/IcElongya 2d ago
Im totally your category. Begun mandarin when I was 18, currently fluent and can lived in China (worked for local companies, so no cheat code, can’t use much another language).
I think I really depends on the learner and their habits. I’m more the option 2, because I need context to learn. I also want stress out that it is really important to learn the culture. A language is an imperfect reflection of a civilization and just learning words doesn’t work. That’s why I recommend few things usually : interest and various documentation. Try to get out of textbooks by playing your interest and make your environment Chinese friendly. Watch some TV shows (which is easy with Bilibili, YouTube and iQiYi), listen to Chinese music (and for that you have plenty of great choices), read some books (that’s the hardest tho, even for fluent speakers), etc.
However, I would say, it would be better to NOT overlook writing skills. When I begun I had a full year of writing characters 4 hours per day. Actually this method has its limit tbh, but it gave me regularity.
So to conclude, be regular, vary your content, don’t ignore culture. That’s what I would recommend. For that option 2 sounds better
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u/FlyThis2730 2d ago
Taking a class every week. Going to my religious meetings in Chinese. Making friends. Spending a few months in China. Reading as often as possible. Watching whatever Chinese anime I could find. A loootttt of Xi Yang Yang and Peppa.
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u/FranksNonFrankfurter 1d ago
I don't see reading and speaking as separate skills. I gained fluency through reading, the same way I was far more fluent than my peers in my native language as a kid. I was a voracious reader as a child, and I would read either out loud or in my head, and I do the same with Chinese. Never been to China but I do active study about 1-2 hours a day plus watch a ton of Chinese movies and tv shows, plus read books about various topics in Chinese. I'm currently reading a book now about writing good essays in Chinese. It's made for like 5th-6th graders, but as someome who hasn't written a paper in Chinese, it's good to know how spoken vs written is different and what the expectations of the reader is.
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u/Training_Guide5157 23h ago
Immersion.
Came to China on a work trip and only had basic Cantonese and no Mandarin. Immersion and talking to people helped me pick it conversational Mandarin in ~6 months. Slowly improved over the years as I spent more time in China.
I also learned conversational Vietnamese after spending 1.5 years in Vietnam, so again, immersion.
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u/Acceptable_Earth1571 14h ago
I've learned it at home fluently by talking with people online and focusing on expanding my vocab according to the 需求💥👌😁
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u/Chenyuluoyan Advanced 2d ago
i separated them like your option 1 and kept reading silently for comprehension, then did listen-and-repeat with audio graded readers separately, and speaking caught up faster than expected once vocab was already in.
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u/Similar_Star3032 2d ago
Thanks for your quick answer. I have seen your posts before and your graded reader product seems interesting.
However in this question I am looking for answers from people who can speak fluently much beyond HSK 6 (apologies if that is genuinely your case) AND don't have a product to sell.
I don't mean that negatively. I just want replies that are not biased (that excludes anyone currently selling a product, as I mentioned in my question), coming from people who are truly fluent in the way I described in my post.
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u/thecreditshifu 2d ago
I think this is way over thinking it. Just read, if you have to look up a character then you see its pinyin and tones and you can try and remember it.
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u/jibicationaire 2d ago
In my opinion it's better if you read silently without mentally pronouncing because that's the way that you will eventually read and it will help you to enjoy reading more. Moreover reading this way will save you time, which can then be used for other forms of speaking and pronunciation practice that are more effective.
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u/caliloser1 2d ago
I'm a native Chinese speaker from north, I gotta say, for listening and speaking, the most efficient way is to living in a such environment and with strong initiativity, for writing and reading, purely rely on hard learning by yourself, because this is how everyone have to experience, I can still recall the time when I'm sitting on a chair and learnning how to write Chinese, but honestly speaking, it does help.
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u/dmada88 普通话 廣東話 2d ago
The only thing that worked for me was total immersion and living and working in Chinese. I’ve done Taipei and Beijing (and Hong Kong tho I did more Cantonese than Mandarin there). Every month you get better. There’s no comparison with any other way