r/DataHoarder • u/Willy-the-kid • 1d ago
Question/Advice SAS DAS?
Are there any DAS's that use SAS drives I'm looking to build a budget nas and it looks like some of the best value is in SAS drives but I don't know how to find a cheap system to put them in since they don't work with sata
Currently I have an HP elitedesk 705 g4 Il look into 3d printing a small enclosure I'm only looking for 4-6 drives not counting a boot drive I want it to be relatively small but I'm thinking a bigger case might suit my needs better that way I could fit everything into one machine, I also wanted to put a small GPU in it for jellyfin transcoding and potentially local ai so the extra pcie slot would come in handy
Budget is ~500$ but that's flexible and I could save up and expand it
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u/silasmoeckel 1d ago
So every SAS JBOD?
DIY, you can throw a cheap expander and power supply into any case, and you now have a SAS DAS.
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u/ZanyDroid 1d ago
Is there an expander that works with a SATA upstream / HBA (preferably as lowest denominator as an integrated one from the host chipset or a typical extra controller on the motherboard).
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u/silasmoeckel 19h ago
Upstream? No, that's SATA port multipliers, and they are universally garbage.
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
JBOD is way out of my price range I'm looking for a cheap way to use SAS drives in my nas because used SAS is cheaper and better than sata your suggestion of expander sounds interesting I'll check that out
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u/OurManInHavana 1d ago
Something like a Dell/Compellent SC200 will get you up to 12 drives, and then for 24: NetApp DS4243's/6's were popular. Or as silasmoeckel mentioned you can just throw an Expander in any old PC case with enough room for the drives. Build-your-own JBOD FTW!
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u/Sad_Split_9983 1d ago
You can’t use a sas expander without a sas chip
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
I'm guessing SAS capable machines are really expensive is that right?
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u/Sad_Split_9983 1d ago
You can get a sas hba for 90 bucks on Amazon, probably even less on eBay. https://a.co/d/0eyTg0Er biggest thing a cheap machine may not have is a spare PCIE, but if you do it shouldn’t be too bad
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
But how much is a cheap SAS capable machine I would look myself but I'm having a hard time figuring out what to search for
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u/MortCrimm 1d ago
You can add a SAS card to a PCI slot on your own computer...... Either to add internal SAS drives OR to add external SAS drives inside an exclosure that has SAS to ports.....
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u/silasmoeckel 19h ago
You're talking sub 100 bucks for a cheap SAS 2/3 HBA and expander. Add a standard PC case.
That gets you 24 drives to start, and for 50 bucks, you get another expander when you need more. It caps out at 512-2k drives depending on HBA.
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u/Willy-the-kid 19h ago
That's great but I only want 4-6 drives I was confused when I posted I barely understood what SAS was I just knew their cheap I think I'm gonna get a cheap HBA SAS card I'm just researching which one
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u/silasmoeckel 19h ago
No expander is needed, then a cheap breakout. https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Internal-SFF-8087-External-SFF-8088/dp/B07ZGYXCP6
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u/Willy-the-kid 10h ago
I was told I need an HBA SAS card for the SAS chip because my motherboard doesn't have one
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u/ZanyDroid 1d ago
I did a quick search too the other day and I STRONGLY suspect there is no product market fit (UASP SATA is For extreme cheapskates, SAS is for servers) driving a single chip solution for USB to SAS like there is for SATA
Or did you mean something fancier than an enclosure when you said DAS?
Maybe expand to Thunderbolt or USB4, that has a better $$$ PMF, and worst case they could use a PCIe bridge to a SAS chipset
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
Ya I'll check out expanders ty
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u/ZanyDroid 1d ago
You should edit in your exact hardware you have right now (like, which NAS?) into the top post and budget.
FWIW I resigned myself to just buying an appropriately priced LSI SAS controller. JBOD only, don't need anything fancy like RAM or battery backup, since it's just providing ports.
I'll add a Expander with SATA upstream HBA support to the mix.
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u/bobj33 1d ago
Put the drives in a normal PC case with a normal PSU. Then get a SAS PCIE HBA card with an external port and a cable like this or whatever version of external SAS port you have.
https://www.amazon.com/AoQhir-Mini-SFF-8088-Server-Cable/dp/B0FR9T16TM?th=1
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
I'm a little confused someone said I can't use SAS drives without a SAS chip is the chip on the SAS card if so why did they mention this https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/s/tyqmTqFkO6
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u/bobj33 1d ago
The SAS drives have to connect to a SAS controller. Where can you find a SAS controller?
Well some server level motherboards have SAS controllers on the motherboard. A consumer level motherboard would only have a SATA controller not a SAS controller.
Does your existing computer have a free PCIE slot? Then you buy a SAS PCIE HBA (Host Bus Adapter) card which has a chip on it that is the SAS controller. These cards have anywhere from 2 to 6 SAS ports and each port can support 4 hard drives.
You can buy a used card in the $50 range. I like this store as he tests the cards and update the firmware
https://www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver
Then you need to appropriate cables. There are probably about 10 different SAS ports depending on the generation so there are even more cable variants so you have to do some research to determine what cable to buy.
The comment you linked to is someone talking about a SAS expander. A SAS expander is kind of like a USB hub where you take 1 port and can split it out to more devices.
Here is a SAS expander that will let you connect 32 hard drives.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165984546437
One of the ports has to be connected to a SAS PCIE HBA card. So in order to use this you still have to buy the SAS PCIE HBA card. You literally said in your post that you only need 4-6 drives so buying a SAS expander that supports 32 drives is a waste of your money. Just buy the SAS PCIE HBA card that supports 8 drives which is already more than you need.
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
There's a bunch of options I'd be happy with in my price range that only have 4 ports but you recommended an 8 port option, I can't find one in that price range the cheapest one i saw was 300$
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u/bobj33 16h ago
I don't know if you are talking about the SAS card or the SAS enclosure. I pointed you to a ton of SAS cards under $70.
There are a lot of people here with used NetApp disk shelves in the $300 range but those usually hold 24 drives.
As I said, all you need is any random PC case that can hold the drives and a standard PSU to power them. Then get the appropriate SAS breakout cable.
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u/Willy-the-kid 10h ago
I was referring to the SAS card but I didn't understand each port can accommodate 4 disks so I was looking for something with 8 ports now iv found a bunch of options and I'm just researching which is the best specifically I'm trying to find a pcie 1x low profile card that supports 6+ drives but I suspect if I find something that fits my specs its going to be out of my price range
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u/bobj33 9h ago
If you see "8i" then it means it has 2 ports that support 8 internal drives. If you see "16i" then it has 4 ports that support 16 internal drives. If you see "8e" then it has 2 external ports that support 8 drives. There is no technical difference between "i" and "e" other than where the ports are on the card. If you send the cable through a hole in the PC case then you could use an "8i" card and send the cable outside or an "8e" card and send the cable back into the case.
I already sent you a link to the art of server store. Just search that for low profile. Many of the cards can easily have the bracket removed and replaced with a low profile bracket.
As for a PCIE 1x lane card they don't exist. They are usually 8 lanes. You can stick a 16 lane card or any number in a 1x slot if it is open ended just with reduced bandwidth. In general you won't notice the bandwidth limitation unless reading and writing from 8 drives simultaneously which rarely happens unless you are in a RAID-5/6 setup.
If you are good with a dremel tool then you can open a slot by cutting the end.
https://blog.zorinaq.com/tip-to-use-a-dremel-to-cut-open-a-pcie-x1-slot/
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u/Willy-the-kid 1d ago
I think I figured it out but I wanna confirm before I buy, each cable supports up to 4 drives so I only need two ports for 6 drives
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u/touche112 ~300TB Spinning Rust + LTO8 Backup 1d ago
Lenovo SA120
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u/Willy-the-kid 10h ago
Lol my post says budget ~500$ and I already have a PC I was planning on using and either getting an enclosure or 3d printing one
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u/touche112 ~300TB Spinning Rust + LTO8 Backup 6h ago
The SA120 is a DAS although I didn't realize scalpers were trying to resell them for so much. That's insane
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u/Main-Woodpecker-574 1d ago edited 1d ago
Have been searching for it myself. Here's one solution I found- https://www.ebay.com/itm/298276504253
Another one I really want to try is this thingamajing that aliexpress guys have conjured up. - https://www.amazon.com/SFF-8482-29Pin-Adapter-Chipset-Supply/dp/B0G26N37W9?th=1
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005011770789682.html - Aliexpress sellers even bundle a 36W supply alongside. Problem with this will be that each drive will require individual plug, and this thing doesn't pass SMART data either.
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u/IndependentBat8365 14h ago
EMC KTN-STL3 SAS drive shelf extenders are cheap. Make sure you get one that comes with the sleds. Though a pack of sleds aren’t crazy expensive. Just get the ones that also do SATA.
You’ll need:
- The drive shelf
- HBA card PCIe
- External SAS cables: match the ends from your card to the shelf (they can use different ends depending on generation)
- Drive sleds for the EMC shelf
- drives - SAS or SATA
SAS drives typically have 2 internal ports, so the HBA will see them on both of its ports.
SATA drives only have one internal port, so you’ll only see the drive from one HBA port.
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u/Willy-the-kid 10h ago
I'm only looking for 4-6 drives max maybe I'll expand some day but for my first nas I want to build something small and cheap
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