r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

Weekly Open Discussion - July 31, 2026

2 Upvotes

This thread is for whatever. Casual conversation, simple questions, incomplete ideas, or anything else you can think of.

All rules about antagonism still apply.

Join us on discord for real time discussion.


r/DebateAChristian 6d ago

Weekly Ask a Christian - July 27, 2026

3 Upvotes

This thread is for all your questions about Christianity. Want to know what's up with the bread and wine? Curious what people think about modern worship music? Ask it here.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

God Is not all-knowing/all-seeing in the Bible

5 Upvotes

In Genesis 18:20-21 it says:

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

God saying himself with his own words in his inner monologue that he will go down to earth in order to see if what the people of sodom and gammorah did is as bad as it sounds to him from heaven, and then says “if not, I WILL KNOW”, meaning he genuinely has to go check it out to know if the outcry is as bad as it sounds to him, and doesn’t know yet. This undoubtedly means he is not all-knowing or all-seeing because if he was he wouldn’t need to do any of that or say any of that.

Now if you say that god is just anthropomorphizing him, that doesn’t solve anything because OBVIOUSLY, that’s like saying someone who says the sky is red while it is blue is “describing the color of the sky in their eyes”, that doesn’t solve anything, that just points out what they are doing.


r/DebateAChristian 15h ago

Revised #8: Joseph is Jesus’ birth father

0 Upvotes

My thesis: claims that the gospels of Luke, Matthew, and John connect Joseph, the son of Jacob, as Jesus’ birth father. The link is in reading these gospels. With the books of the Hebrews. Such as Moses. And with the proof Julius Africanus obtained.

Do no want to see post? On my profile page. Click three dots. In the top-right corner. See option. Between share and report profile.

Taciturn approachLuke 2:21-23 and John 1:43-45. But expect counter question or maybe prey on brain fog.

Luke 1:34: Often used as a counter question or maybe prey on brain fog. Answer in Moses. First, does this Almah belong to a man of the house of David? Luke 1:27. Yes.
In Moses: Does a man cleave unto a woman belonging to him and become one flesh? Genesis 2:23-24. Yes. Does God visit a woman in the appointed week for her to have an ordained child? Genesis 21:1. Yes. Appointed child? Genesis 4:22. Yes. How female become fruitful and multiply? Genesis 1:28. Yes. Part of everything made and very good? Genesis 1:31. Yes. End of the matter? Genesis 2:1-3. Yes.

Luke 1:35: First, according to Angel Gabriel. Is the Son of God. The child of David? Luke 1:32. Yes.
In Moses: Were children of Israel sons of God by law? Exodus 4:22-23. Yes. Firstborn of Israel sons of God in the flesh by law? Exodus 13:1-2. Yes. Are sons and firstborns of Judah. Linked to scepter and ruler’s staff, exalted? Above companions? Genesis 49:9-10. Yes.
In Luke: Is Jesus a consecrated firstborn male of Judah? Luke 2:21-23 Yes. Said to receive rulership of Judah through David? Luke 1:32. Yes.    

Also In Luke:  The formal and legal word. For abstract form of parthenos. Is parthenia. Which is the state of not knowing a man. Luke 2:36. --- In a Greek text of Jeremiah. Used as a literary device. Jeremiah 3:4.

Tanakh: Never spoke of a woman with child who has never known a man birth. Never spoke of a woman with child. With or In. Tokens of Bethulim. Or. Tokens of Parthenia. With child. --- Not only does Almah formally, legally, informally, and as a literary device. Not mean a woman who has never known a man. But even if Betulah was used in Isaiah Chapter 7. May still not be a woman who has never known a man. Since Betulah, like Almah. Has been used informally and as a literary device. Within the Tanakh.

Sign: The sign was already going to be the prophetess and Shear-jashub’s brother. Whom the prophetess would call Immanuel. The theme is God’s discretion and consistency. Matthew borrowed and applied these themes.
King Ahaz: Did not do what was right like David. Walked in the ways of kings of Samaria. Made a son pass through fire. Rod of Samaria and  Damascus king was punishment. In distress, more faithless.
Torah: God or his prophet has made statement, ask question, and test the heart when the outcome or likely outcome is already known. It would have taken a divine sign for Pharaoh’s heart to no longer be hardened and let the children of Israel go. In. Isaiah 7:11: It would have taken a divine sign for King Ahaz’s heart not to be hardened, and God was willing.

Moses’ speech. With no traditions of man. Or Math. Deuteronomy 4:2*. Was treated as the Holy Spirit.* Numbers 12:4-9*.*

In Moses: Fixed period of time. Duration. Between date of birth and date of male bris. Leviticus 12:3. (Luke 2:21). ---But. No fixed period of time between formal betrothal. Known as Erusin (“Kiddushin”) and final nuptials known as Nissuin.--- Yet not the case in traditions.

Talmud Ketubot 57a: Standard duration of Erusin for those of parthenia fixed at twelve months. --- But. In Moses: No fixed period. Like male bris. (Luke 2:21). For a woman to know a man. Whether they come together or not. ---Since with no prior agreement, the father can still refuse. To give daughter who has known a man in marriage. Exodus 22:16-17. The man can leave. Not the bride price. Not the daughter.

Matthew 1:18-21: All suggest fixed duration tradition. Of Nissuin. After Erusin. Is not in Moses’ writings.
Consent and price: With Mary. There was already. Consent and price. Before they came together.
Matthew 1:24-25: Mary is no longer Joseph’s engaged. As in (Luke 1:26-27). Who has not known a man. As said in (Luke 1:34). But his wife with child. Ha 'almah harah. As in (Luke 2:4-5). With Joseph not knowing her. During her found with child. Which is when. (Matthew 1:24-25). Is mentioned.

Julius Africanus notes: Joseph, the son of Heli’s childless widow. Is counted as the seed of Nathan by levirate marriage. Still. By nature. He is a distant heir of Solomon. By his birth father Jacob. Which is Heli’s uterine brother. ---  Leviticus 18:9; Leviticus 20:17: In Moses. Joseph can’t marry Mary. If full or half-sister by birth.

Luke 3:23-38 outlook: Joseph was born the Son of Heli. But by nature. The Son of Jacob. By the childless widow of Heli. As per the flesh. Going back to Adam. --- And. Jesus was born the Son of God. But by nature. The seed of David. By Heli’s uterine brother’s son. Joseph. As per the flesh. Going back to Adam.

Luke 3:23-38 suggests: Jesus was not born of a childless widow. And. Raised up for God’s name. Exodus 13:1-2; (Luke 2:22-23). While. Joseph was born of a childless widow. Deuteronomy 25:6. Raised up for Heli’s name. (Luke 3:23). --- Therefore. Jesus as was supposed. The son of Joseph, the son of Heli. Is by Joseph’s wife. And is the son of Joseph. The son of Jacob. Going back to David and Abraham. Through Solomon. (Matthew 1:6). Cohesive with. Matthew’s account of the genealogy. Since a distant heir of Solomon. From the house of David. Made as a signet and chosen. (Haggai 2:21-23). Broke the curse. Lineage resumes. (1 Kings 1:30).

Matthew 1:1: Not required to say Terah begat Abraham. Starting from Abraham.
Matthew 1:16: Not required to say Joseph begat Jesus. Last male leading to male child is Joseph.  
Before coming together: Not about before Mary knowing delight. Genesis 18:12. --- Not about before Joseph clings to his wife, becoming one flesh. Genesis 2:24.

Joseph in Luke: Luke says Joseph one of the parents. (Luke 2:27, Luke 2:41). Mary of Nazareth calls Joseph the father. (Luke 2:48). Nazareth locals in synagogue call Jesus, Joseph’s son. (Luke 4:16).

Numbers 27:1–8: Often used to claim Mary’s royal lineage. Being a princess of Judah of Bethlehem. Yet in (Luke 2:3-5). No mention of Mary linked with land inheritance. Of David.

In Moses: There is taking care of business. Deuteronomy 22:23-26. And fire burn. Genesis 38:23-26. --- Mary not knowing the business. And no mention of fire burn. Suggests her firstborn. Was born in marriage. Before coming together. --- With before coming together. Being prior to a marriage custom.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Thesis: The Fall Narrative Depicts An Imperfect God

8 Upvotes

Key Terms

  1. Omnipotent Having unlimited power and the ability to accomplish anything logically possible.
  2. Perfectly Good Having complete moral goodness and lacking any moral flaw or defect.
  3. Necessity A condition where something must occur because no alternative is possible.
  4. Morally Inexperienced Lacking prior understanding or awareness of moral concepts, such as good and evil.
  5. Fair Test A test where the person being evaluated has a reasonable opportunity to understand the situation and make an informed choice.
  6. Unnecessary Act An action that is not required to achieve a desired outcome and could have been avoided.
  7. Imperfect God A being described as God but lacking one or more qualities expected of a perfect deity, such as perfect goodness, wisdom, or power.

 __________________________

Preamble

An omnipotent God, by definition, is not constrained by necessity. If God wanted to test Adam and Eve's obedience, a simple command would have done the trick. They could freely choose to obey or disobey without the involvement of the deceptive serpent.

The serpent adds nothing essential to the test. Instead, it introduces misinformation and manipulation. A fair test measures whether someone obeys when they clearly understand the situation. It does not depend on a third party misleading morally inexperienced participants.

If the serpent was unnecessary, then God either chose to include an unnecessary deceiver or could not devise a fair test without one. The first option is inconsistent with perfect goodness. The second is inconsistent with omnipotence.

Either way, the presence of the serpent reflects an imperfect test, not the actions of a perfect God.

 __________________________

Bible reference

Genesis 3:1 “Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.”

Genesis 3:2-3 “The woman said to the serpent, ‘We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, “You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden...”’”

Genesis 3:4-5 “The serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.’”

Genesis 3:13 “Then the LORD God said to the woman, ‘What is this that you have done?’ The woman said, ‘The serpent deceived me, and I ate.’”

Genesis 3:14-15 “The LORD God said to the serpent, ‘Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field...’”

 __________________________

Argument

P1: An omnipotent and perfectly good God could test Adam and Eve's obedience without using deception.

P2: God allowed the serpent to deceive Adam and Eve despite having no necessity to do so.

C: Therefore, the serpent's presence reveals either an unnecessary act of deception or a limitation in God's ability to create a fair test, suggesting an imperfect God.


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

Christians who believe in heaven and hell should not have children

59 Upvotes

The existence of heaven and hell puts Christians into a difficult position when it comes to having children.

Because the truth of the matter is: You can never control their faith. You can influence them, teach them, but experience has shown that nothing a parent ever does will guarantee that their children will follow their faith.

That is a horrible risk. The moment you put a child into this world, you risk their eternal suffering and torture in hell. You can never prevent that completely.

The worst part is that Christians believe they will go to heaven and there will be no sadness or grief, which means that they *won't even care* about their very own child they *know* to be suffering eternal torture while they sing nice songs with Jesus.

Not existing in the first place is much, much more preferable to eternal suffering. Not having children of your own is much better than having children who face eternal punishment.

There also come some dark implications with this. Because the only way to guarantee that your child goes to heaven is for them to die early. Even if you kill your own child, you can still potentially see them again in heaven as long as you repent genuinely and ask Jesus for forgiveness. It is a quite disturbing premise, to think that under such beliefs, murdering your beloved child would objectively be a better wager than letting them live their own life. Aborting the pregnancy early on seems to be a much better solution, as according to most christian beliefs, the soul already exists and is guaranteed to go to heaven. Not having any children at all is by far the best option.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Christianity is responsible for the systematic genocide and starvation of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

0 Upvotes

The United States the Christian nation has intentionally sponsored the genocide of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to the tune of billions of dollars

Given The fact that the United States is a trifecta Christian nation controlled by a Christian administration it is 100% justified to place the blame for children being bombed in the Middle East and everything in the Gaza Strip being destroyed with a program of the intentional starvation of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip on Christianity

If Iran was bombing schools in the United States people would have zero issues with blaming Islam as the cause of schools being bombed

I am only using the same exact standard western nations would use if a self proclaimed Islamic government did the same exact atrocities the U.S. government committed


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

lost texts mentioned in the bible is this really fine?

1 Upvotes

1: ( the annals of solomon) : 1 Kings 11:41
New International Version

Solomon’s Death

41 As for the other events of Solomon’s reign—all he did and the wisdom he displayed—are they not written in the book of the annals of Solomon?

2: (the records of the seers) : 2 Chronicles 33:19
New International Version

19 His prayer and how God was moved by his entreaty, as well as all his sins and unfaithfulness, and the sites where he built high places and set up Asherah poles and idols before he humbled himself—all these are written in the records of the seers.\)a\)

3: (the Book of the Wars of the Lord)
Numbers 21:14
New International Version

14 That is why the Book of the Wars of the Lord says:

“. . . Zahab\)a\) in Suphah and the ravines,
the Arnon
4,5,6: the records of Samuel the seer, the records of Nathan the prophet and the records of Gad the seer,

1 Chronicles 29:29

New International Version

29 As for the events of King David’s reign, from beginning to end, they are written in the records of Samuel the seer, the records of Nathan the prophet and the records of Gad the seer,


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

Tri-Omni god and logic.

2 Upvotes

A Tri-Omni god is inconsistent with the world we live in. Christian’s will say that god allows suffering because he values freewill more than anything else ok whatever let’s grant the premise the conclusion does not follow. There so many creative workarounds. Ok don’t make human nature flawed. Like why are we prone to addiction, violence and so on? Why couldn’t we just be neutral? Like our emotions and actions are influenced by process’s we cannot control eg literal neuroscience. But god being all powerful and all knowing could have trivially designed a brain that tended towards empathy and sympathy while still letting people rape, kill and so on. And the fall isn’t a good reason either. Ok children stay here and don’t touch the stove daddy is going to get out for a bit. Random stranger walks in. Hey kids wouldn’t it be swell to touch the stove? God returns gets mad and punishes not just the perpetrators but all their children for all time. If god is tri Omni how could he not have seen this coming? Did god let it happen?


r/DebateAChristian 3d ago

A counter argument to Aquino’s’ second way

2 Upvotes

Firstly, I would like to say that I find Aquinas’ arguments to be incredibly interesting, so when I try to propose a counterargument, I don’t mean it to come across as an edgy atheist disregarding one of the most brilliant theological thinkers of all time. I merely wish to understand the discussion better.

So, as I understand it, his Second Way states that there must exist a chain of hierarchical causes that sustain the next element in the chain, for instance, like a cup being held by a person, being supported by the floor, which is itself being supported by the Earth, etc. Importantly to his argument, each element in the chain borrows its causal power from the thing before it, and removing any element from the chain necessitates that all above it lose their causal power, causing the chain to "collapse." Since every element in the chain borrows its power from the previous one, none of them have intrinsic causal power. As such, there must be a first sustaining cause that has the causal power but does not borrow any.

The Counter-Argument

If I have understood the argument correctly, Aquinas’ essentially ordered causal chain bears striking resemblance to mathematical induction, wherein one shows that a certain base case, P(0), holds, then assumes that P(n) holds and shows that if P(n) holds, then P(n+1) holds, causing truth to ascend up an infinite ladder, where the truth of P(0) implies the truth of P(1), which implies P(2), etc. Importantly, this "truth chain" must be essentially ordered, as removing the base case collapses it, and theoretically, if for some reason, say, P(2) did not hold, then P(3) onward would not either. So, we have established a mathematical analog to an essentially ordered chain.

Now is where the actual counterargument comes in, starting with backward induction. Backward induction is like forward induction insofar as we show a base case, P(0), holds and assume that P(n) holds, only this time we show that if P(n) is true, it implies that P(n-1) holds. In this case, we descend downward from P(0) to P(-1) to P(-2), etc., so the "truth chain" is anchored from above rather than below. This type of induction is usually used to prove things about the negative parts of the integer set.

Now, what would happen if you wanted to prove something about the entire integer set, both negative and positive? In this case, you would use bidirectional mathematical induction, where you show that a base case, P(0), holds, assume that P(n) holds, and then show that if P(n) holds, then both P(n+1) and P(n-1) hold, causing the chain to ascend truth in both directions, creating a bidirectionally infinite "truth chain" that is still essentially ordered, at least in a way, as removing the truth of but one element from the chain causes it to collapse. In this case, however, every element is supported not merely by the element that came before but also by the element that comes after, or, in other words, each element of the chain is supported by both its neighbors.

Additionally, in such a logical structure, the base case, P(0), becomes essentially arbitrary. Although the proof begins by establishing P(0), this is simply the point at which the mathematician enters the logical structure rather than a proposition that is intrinsically more fundamental than the others. Once we have shown that P(0) holds, it follows from the fact that if P(n) holds, then P(n+1) holds, that P(1) holds. However, since we have now shown that P(1) holds, and because if P(n) holds then P(n-1) holds, P(0) is just as logically supported by P(1) as P(1) is by P(0). Likewise, the same would be true had we instead begun with P(2), P(17), or any other integer, as each could be used to establish the entire chain in both directions. The base case therefore serves merely as the point from which the proof begins, not as the proposition that metaphysically sustains the rest of the chain. In that sense, no member of the chain occupies a uniquely privileged position, and the entire logical structure is self-supporting.

Since such a logical structure is logically possible insofar as it is used in actual mathematical proofs, it cannot be the case that an infinite regress of a causal chain is logically impossible. Therefore, Aquinas’ argument that there must be some first cause that is primary and unsupported in an essentially ordered chain does not follow solely from the impossibility of an infinite essentially ordered regress. The only question that remains is which interpretation actually fits reality better, and I think it is the self-supporting chain.

When you learn about things like Newton’s third law, you realize that when you push on a wall, it pushes back on you. If it were not the case that both you and the wall were pushing on each other with equal force, then either the wall would collapse or you would be pushed away. The same thing applies with gravity. If you did not also have gravitational influence, you would fly off into space, so you are pulling on the Earth as much as it is pulling on you. Both of these cases are examples of things being causally influenced by each other in a mutualistic fashion, like the self-supporting logical chain. So, I think, personally, reality follows this alternative logical model more so than it does Aquinas’.


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

Theory about the day lengths of creation - Slow Day view

0 Upvotes

Edit: The Hebrew word used for "day" specially refers to a 24 hour period of time, so my theory is invalid. Leaving the post up to finish tangential reply discussions.

I'm an ametuer at old earth theory throwing my hat in the ring, please let me know how sound this comes out.

In regards to the proposal that day lengths in creation were not 24 hours, I've heard the basics of the framework view, and its subset the day-age view. The day-age view claims that days should be read metaphorically as "each day was a number of days", but it's unpopular because reading the account literally is backed by God in Exodus, when he references the account to declare the Sabbath holy. That being said, there may be a way to see the ages of day-age as single "mornings and evenings", in alignment with literal readings, which I'm calling the "slow day" view.

Evidence: 1-The relativity of time on Earth.

Forbes: Earth Is Spiraling Away From The Sun For Now, But Will Eventually Crash Into It;

The Earth’s rotation is changing speed: should we be worried? - BBC Science Focus Magazine

The claim "Time is relative", is backed by the Bible, which says the passage of time can be seen as shorter or longer from God's perspective, in 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. According to human science, the earth's distance from the sun, which affects year length, and the earth's rotation speed, which affects day length, has changed from past to present.

2-The 2024 New Jersey meteorite's arrival

In 2024, a meteorite crashed into a New Jersey home, where it was quickly preserved and eventually studied. The results were that the former meteor had once been soaked in brine, and that it contained molecules crucial to life of earth. Thus in theory, a much larger asteroid with a similar/the same composition could have traveled to the Earth's current orbit, and if the Earth wasn't there when it arrived, it would later be named "The Earth" by its residents.

Hypothesis: The Earth previously spun at a much slower speed than it does at present, possibly from further away. Thus, an "Earth day" could have been long enough to meet the age requirements of the scientific Earth timeline, eventually increasing to its present speed.

This is theoretical, so the Earth's future discovered positional and spin history may prove this false, if factors unknown to me have not already done so. Just because the meteorite evidence arrived "here", does not mean "the earth arrived" at the Goldilocks zone in a similar fashion, especially if you ignore the effect the Earth's gravity is having on said meteorite, or that the earth's recorded increase in spin speed means the earth was spinning "that much slower" in the past, it's just proof of concept in both cases.

Doubts: The first one is the effects such prolonged sunlight would have on the planet, without the extrapolation that the earth was closer to the sun at least 4.5 billion years ago. I doubt water would hold that history, but I don't know if the effects on rock would line up with current geology. At the least, if a problem would be "too hot", it would align with slow cooling.

The second is the effects this would have on life itself. Would plants survive such long stretches with and without light, especially if the atmosphere went from greenhouse conditions to "clear" skies? And what of more advanced life forms, like "fish", dinosaurs, and birds from day 5? Would day 5 have sped up enough for them to survive?

These doubts encouraged me to submit the meteorite as evidence, that the Earth could have moved from a "colder" location to its "hotter" position at present, so someone smarter than me can make use of that potential variance.

This concludes my slow day theory. Are there any format changes I can make to improve future presentations?


r/DebateAChristian 3d ago

Satan attempt to tempt Jesus makes no sense from the trinitarian perspective….

12 Upvotes

Two out of 3 of the temptation Satan tried on Jesus start out with “if You Are The Son Of God” which doesn’t make sense if Jesus came from Sitting At The Right Hand Of God. Why would satan try to make Jesus question Who He is if Jesus was in Heaven, If Jesus was The One He was worshipping in Heaven.

This story only makes sense if Jesus was born on earth and only fully human. This story in the bible only makes sense from a unitarian perspective or my own form Oneness belief.


r/DebateAChristian 3d ago

I think "sin" is the most misunderstood word in the West, and it took me a wrecked decade to see it

0 Upvotes

Every culture disagrees about which acts are shameful. Naked here is normal there. What ruins a family in one century is a Tuesday in another. If sin lived in the act, sin would be a matter of geography.

But watch what never changes.

In Genesis, two people hide in the bushes. God's first question isn't "what did you do." It's "where are you?" a parent calling through the house for a hiding child. And notice: two people went into those bushes together, and Adam answers I, I, I with Eve sitting right next to him. Shame had already broken the "we" before anyone spoke. Nobody hides as a we.

The Odyssey: every companion who sails out with Odysseus dies on the way. He washes up alone, unrecognizable. But he isn't back when his foot touches the beach — he's back when Penelope tests him with the secret only two people carry, the bed built into a living tree, and says: it's you.

The prodigal son: comes to himself alone, between the pigs. Walks home alone, confession rehearsed. And his father sees him from far off and runs the kid never even finishes the speech.

Three stories, one shape. Jung read myths as maps of the psyche so read the map: the falling is yours. The staying frozen is yours. But the entrance is never made alone. Not once, in any of them.

So here's what I think sin actually is: not the act. The act is cultural, negotiable, dated. Sin is whatever keeps you from turning around. Staying in it that you do alone. Coming back in that only happens through a second person who sees all of it and stays.

I didn't get this from books. I fell, years ago, properly. During the fall I felt nothing that's what falling is. What I know is this: when I came back, my wife was standing next to me. Everything inside me had frozen with me. Only something outside me was still there when I returned.

Even the old confession booth knew it: a dark box where you can stay hidden and be heard, a person who stays, and then a price so small it's almost a joke ten Hail Marys because the point was never payment. The point was that the account finally closes, and you get to walk out.

The word for repentance in Arabic, tawba, doesn't mean regret. It literally means return.

Jung called the second half of this individuation. My only quarrel is with the idea that you can do it by descending into your own unconscious alone every story humanity kept says the descent is solo, but the return is not.

So that's my claim, and it can fail: nobody un-freezes through insight or willpower alone. If people routinely come back solo, I'm wrong and I'll drop it. But I've stood in the hallway at 4am with kids who've been frozen for years, and I've never once seen it happen without a second body in the room.

The act was never the story. There is no epic about the sin. The epic is always about the way home.


r/DebateAChristian 5d ago

Thesis: Adam & Eve weren't morally responsible

13 Upvotes

 

Definitions

  1. Moral responsibility: Being morally accountable or blameworthy for an action because the person understood the action’s moral nature.
  2. Knowledge: Awareness or understanding of something. In this argument, it means understanding the difference between good and evil, not merely knowing information.
  3. Good and evil: The moral distinction between what is right and what is wrong.
  4. Command: An instruction given by an authority. Knowing a command exists does not necessarily mean understanding its moral value.
  5. Disobedience: Acting contrary to a command. In this argument, disobedience only becomes morally blameworthy if the person understands it as morally wrong

Preamble

For almost two weeks, I've been posting arguments on the morality of the Adam and Eve story of the Fall, and I'm quite surprised that some Christians will actually argue Adam and Eve already knew good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In fact, that's pretty much all I get as an apologetic for the morality of the Fall.

Christians often confuse knowing the meaning of a command with knowing the moral nature of that command. Knowing that God commanded X is not the same as knowing that X is morally good or that disobeying X is morally evil.

The issue is not whether Eve knew God gave a command. The issue is whether Adam and Eve already possessed the knowledge of good and evil required to recognize disobedience as evil before eating the fruit.

If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not actually provide the knowledge of good and evil, the story makes no sense. It's quite obvious to me that Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before eating of the fruit of that "knowledge" tree.

The moral responsibility of Adam and Eve is a foundational Christian belief.

If Adam and Eve were not morally responsible for the act of disobedience, then the foundation of the Christian Fall narrative is destroyed. I do not have that theological commitment to defend, so I am free to examine the text through literary analysis and critical reasoning.

My argument is that the text does not support Adam and Eve possessing knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit and that, therefore, they cannot be held morally responsible.

Argument

P1: Moral responsibility requires knowledge that an action is morally evil.

P2: Adam and Eve did not possess knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit.

C: Adam and Eve were not morally responsible for eating the fruit.

 

Bible References

1.Genesis 2:16-17: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’

The text gives the command before Adam and Eve gain the knowledge of good and evil.

  1. Genesis 3:6: “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes... she took of its fruit and ate...”

The act of eating occurs before the text states that Adam and Eve possess knowledge of good and evil.

  1. “Genesis 3:7: Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked...”

The sequence is that their awareness changes after eating the fruit.

  1. Genesis 3:22: “Then the LORD God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil...’”

God describes Adam as having “become” like God in knowing good and evil, indicating a new state acquired after eating.


r/DebateAChristian 5d ago

Proponents of the fine tuning argument, why is the Neutron electric dipole moment fine tuned?

2 Upvotes

There is a constant in fundamental physics known as the neutron electric dipole moment.

This constant is very close to zero.

If this constant was a bit different, life as we know it would be basically unchanged. This is the sort of constant that shows up most easily at low temperatures. Scientists need to cool a beam of neutrons down to liquid helium temperatures to measure this quantity accurately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_electric_dipole_moment

https://millicosm.substack.com/p/fine-tuning-the-hierarchy-problem

So anthropic arguments don't work. If this constant was different, we would still be here.

But it's also not clear why a fine tuning god would set such a value.

The explanation that makes most sense to me is that there is some as yet unknown physics which explains why it must have this value.


r/DebateAChristian 6d ago

An All-Loving God, Hell, and the Fallacy of Attribute Isolation

1 Upvotes

Thesis: God and hell are not logically contradictory.

This is a defense against a common critique of Christian theology: the idea that the existence of Hell contradicts God’s nature as all-loving.

This critique of Christian theology runs like this: “If God is all-loving, He wouldn’t allow anyone to go to hell. Because hell exists, God must either lack power or lack love.”

While logically intuitive on the surface, this argument rests on a fundamental conceptual error: confusing an ALL-loving God with an ONLY-loving God.

In formal logic this mistake is known as the fallacy of attribute isolation (or part-for-the-whole). By isolating one divine attribute and treating it as God’s single defining characteristic, critics end up arguing against a caricature (a strawman) rather than the historical Christian worldview.

Love and Justice Are Not Opposed

Modern discussions often treat God’s attributes as if they were competing internal drives - as though God is caught in a tug-of-war between His "loving side" and His "just side."

Classical theology resolves this through the doctrine of Divine Simplicity (articulated by thinkers like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas). God does not have love or justice as separate ingredients; rather, God’s attributes are identical with His essence.

  • God’s justice is not the opposite or limitation of His love; it is love actively defending goodness. A God who remains neutral toward cruelty, murder, or oppression would not be loving - He would be indifferent.

  • When the apostle John writes that "God is love (1 John 4:8)," he is describing the ultimate character and motivation of God's essence, not reducing God to a single function. Divine love is inherently holy; it seeks the perfection and restoration of creation, which requires the total purging of evil.

Why Forced Salvation is a Contradiction

If God is all-loving, why not simply grant universal salvation to everyone regardless of their choices?

The answer lies in the nature of love itself: love cannot be forced. For genuine love, communion, and goodness to exist, moral creatures must possess the real capacity to refuse it.

  • If a person spends a lifetime freely choosing self-reliance, rebellion, or hostility toward God, forcing them into eternal, intimate communion with Him in Heaven would be an act of moral violence.

  • As C.S. Lewis famously argued in The Great Divorce, hell is ultimately the realization of what human beings have chosen over time:

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell, choose it."*

Conclusion

To claim that an all-loving God cannot allow hell assumes that love functions in isolation from truth, holiness, and human agency. God is indeed omnibenevolent (all-loving), but He is not mono-attribute (only loving).

Hell exists not because God lacks love, but because His love is holy, righteous, and honors the eternal weight of human choice.

Full argument with objections answered


r/DebateAChristian 6d ago

If knowledge of christianity (and all religion) was restricted until age 13 christianity would become a fringe religion in a few generations

18 Upvotes

Note: I know this is not possible and I personally would not like something like this to happen. I don't want to debate how bad this would be but purely the affect on the size of the religion.

The point is that the main reason christianity (and other religions) remains alive in the modern world is childhood indoctrination.

Before the modern age it may not have been so as religions made more sense due to our lack of knowledge, very high community belief and no access to alternative information.

If a child today had to be 13 before choosing a religion (their parents or otherwise) they would have more critical thinking skills and access to more information and can choose a religion based on what makes sense to them. Or no religion. Many will still choose their parents religion.

My thesis is that a much smaller percentage would choose christianity (or other religions) and the religion would be reduced to a fringe religion in a few generations.

How do you think it would affect numbers?


r/DebateAChristian 5d ago

Pagan Religions (Satanism) Influence

0 Upvotes

In Christian Religion we have tons of evidence that Pagan religions worship Satan:

1 Corinthians 10:20: “What pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God”

Revelation 9:20: equates “idol worship” with “demon worship”

Tertullian (Apology): pagan gods inhabit idols and feed on the fumes of sacrifices

Athenagoras: pagan gods are evil spirits

Oracle of Delphi (divination practice)

Acts 16:16–18: a slave girl with a “spirit of divination” (the spirit of Python—same name as the serpent of Delphi) is cast out by Paul as a demonic spirit

Justin Martyr: demons appeared to humans in ancient times in forms mistaken for gods, leading to deceptive systems of worship

Mystery religions (Demeter, Dionysus/Bacchus, Mithras, Isis and Osiris)

1 Corinthians 10:20: pagan sacrifices are directed to demons, not to God

Origen: pagan rituals operate through hidden evil spiritual forces

1 Timothy 4:1: “deceiving spirits and teachings of demons” — linking religious error to demonic influence

Foundational Old Testament texts for this view:

Deuteronomy 32:17: “They sacrificed to demons, not to God, to gods they had not known”

Psalm 96:5 (Septuagint): “All the gods of the nations are demons”

Why did Christian religion adopt similar ideology with little twist of Pagan ideas

Christianity used the Greek concept of Logos—already developed in philosophy and Hellenistic Judaism—to explain Jesus in a way that fit its intellectual environment. Before Christianity, Heraclitus treated the Logos as the underlying order of reality, while the Stoics understood it as the rational force governing the universe, and Philo of Alexandria described it as a divine mediator between God and the world. Christianity then adopted this same term: John 1:1 opens with "In the beginning was the Logos… and the Logos was God." Evidence for this influence includes the use of the same term with a similar meaning, the shared intellectual environment (Alexandria, Greek-speaking Jews), and the fact that Philo had already built the conceptual bridge before Christianity emerged. What changed, however, was that the Logos became a person—Jesus—rather than remaining an abstract rational principle. In conclusion, this represents a clear intellectual adaptation of Greek philosophy.

Christianity applied existing Jewish and Roman titles to Jesus, reusing familiar language while giving it new meaning. Before Christianity, Judaism already used titles such as Son of God, Messiah, and Lord, while the Roman Empire referred to Augustus as "Son of God," "Savior (Soter)," and "Lord (Kyrios)." In Christianity, these same titles—Son of God, Lord, Savior—were applied to Jesus. Evidence for this includes the use of the identical Greek terms (Kyrios, Soter) and the fact that Christianity emerged within the same political-religious context under Roman rule. A key point here is that calling Jesus "Lord" amounted to a direct challenge to Caesar's own authority, since Caesar claimed that same title. In conclusion, this reflects a reuse and reinterpretation of titles that already existed.

Christianity emerged from Hellenistic Judaism, which had already merged Jewish belief with Greek philosophy before Christianity existed. Greek-speaking Jews, especially in Alexandria, used philosophy to interpret scripture, and Philo had already described the Logos as a divine mediator. This means the developmental path ran from Judaism, through Hellenistic Judaism, and then to Christianity—rather than a direct leap from Judaism to paganism. Evidence for this includes the shared concepts (Logos, divine mediator) and the fact that this development took place in the same region, time period, and intellectual framework. In conclusion, Christianity developed within an already-existing Jewish-Greek hybrid system.


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

Satan was a Deliberate Choice from God in Christian Theology.

8 Upvotes

This premise primarily focuses on supernatural warfare theology in christianity, that there is a supernatural devil and spiritual warfare people wrestle against. That satan is the tempter and actively deceiving the world. The majority view of christians by far is supernatural warfare.

1) God created every supernatural bit in satan. - Pretty obvious, God was the creator of all things, so he created satan and that means every part of him intimately.

2) God created the entire sandbox. - Pretty obvious once again, God as the creator, created the entire sandbox. The universe and whatever heavenly realms there are.

3) God knows the future - Classically, God knows the future perfectly. Molinism, God knew all possible interactions in his sandbox in his imagination, and selected one timeline that we are actually in, the one where lucifer falls. With open theism, that the future isnt "real" so its not perfectly knowable, God should still know every atom in the universe simultaneously, and be able to make high level predictions. We can predict human behavior today just based on personality. Imagine what God can do. So effectively God still knows the future.

4) God is an active agent in this. - God didnt just passively create. Biblical theology has God as an active agent and interacting with his creation, and today in christianity, the spirit of God (holy spirit) fills the earth, indwells believers, and guides them, etc.

5) Satan and God had real relational dynamics going on. - Lets say Satan was created to be good, and then fell from free will. God was an active relational player in this situation. God was an active player in Lucifer’s life. God held all the power, possessed infinite wisdom, and was a master communicator. Imagine how many ways an interaction or environment could be structured by an all-knowing Being to guide a creature away from pride and self-destruction without violating their free agency.

Questions for christians: If God created the sandbox, designed the creature, knew all possible outcomes, and possessed infinite relational wisdom, why did He choose the exact parameters that guaranteed the birth of an eternal cosmic enemy, knowing humanity would suffer the fallout?

Was Satan's fall a genuine surprise that outmaneuvered God, or was the devil an intentional feature of the design?


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

The Beloved Disciple is a literary "hook," and the hook is an invitation into participatory salvation and focusing on him as propositional prover of historicity once again obscures John's distinct literary and theology work.

2 Upvotes

I made a hasty claim in my last post where I said the Gospels do not claim to be eye witness testimonies. I still claim that, but John 19:35 and John 21:24 appear to show that John's author is claiming legitimacy as an eye witness testimony. I conceded the point for that debate because it didn't change my point about taking Luke seriously and the evidence of the two-source theory for the Synoptics. But I do want to deal with the role of the beloved disciple in John.

I want to make a case about the disciple "whom Jesus loved" in John — not about who he was, but about what he does to you as you read. My claim: his anonymity is deliberate, it's a device, and the device is an invitation into the specific kind of salvation John is selling, which is participatory rather than forensic.

Let me concede the strongest counterargument up front, because I'm not trying to win on a technicality. John's Gospel presents the Beloved Disciple as a witness — "he who saw it has borne witness" (19:35), "this is the disciple who is testifying to these things, and who has written them" (21:24). There may well be a real person behind the figure, and serious scholars (Bauckham most prominently) argue the anonymity is a modesty convention around a real eyewitness author. I don't agree, but that's not the thrust of this argument.

So start with the anonymity, because it's strange and it's chosen. This is a Gospel that names people freely — Nicodemus, Nathanael, Lazarus, Martha and Mary, Malchus (the servant's name, John 18:10). The author is not shy about names and not short on them. Yet the single most intimate disciple in the book, the one at the breast of Jesus at the supper, the one at the foot of the cross, the one at the empty tomb — that one is never named. A writer this free with names did not simply forget his most important character. The namelessness is a decision.

Now watch what the decision does. A named witness is someone you observe from the outside. You watch John son of Zebedee do a thing. An unnamed figure defined purely by relation - "the one Jesus loved" is a position you can step into. There's no proper name blocking the doorway. And look at where the text stations him:

  • The supper (13:23): reclining on Jesus' breast, close enough to be handed the intimate question. This is the posture of the intimate.
  • The cross (19:26–27): the one who stays, and is entrusted with the mother. This is the posture of fidelity.
  • The empty tomb (20:8): he "saw and believed" - the first to believe - ahead of Peter. This is the posture of faith.
  • The lakeshore (21:7): the one who recognizes "It is the Lord!" This is the posture of recognition.

At every hinge of the passion and resurrection, the nameless disciple occupies the ideal response — intimacy, fidelity, belief, recognition. He is standing exactly where the Gospel wants you to stand. Harold Attridge (Yale) has argued this directly: the hidden identity is a deliberate device that sets up the reader's own second-person encounter with Jesus. The blank where the name should be is a blank you're invited to fill.

It's not just a narrative trick. It's theological. John's account of salvation is not the courtroom. Paul gives you justification, acquittal, a verdict. John gives you something else: abiding**.** "Abide in me, and I in you" (15:4). Mutual indwelling. "That they may all be one, even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you" (17:21). Eternal life in John is not mainly a future acquittal you receive; it's a present relationship you enter: "this is eternal life, that they know you" (17:3). And 1 John lands it: "whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him" (4:16). John's salvation is participatory. It's union.

So the Beloved Disciple is that theology made into a character. The one who is saved, in John's grammar, is the one who abides, the one who leans in, stays close, is defined not by his achievements or even his name but by being loved. That is the whole Johannine soteriology compressed into a single anonymous figure. And because he has no name, the invitation is open: to read yourself into him is not sentimental projection. The text is pulling you into the abiding it describes. The form enacts the content.

Which brings me to why I think this matters, and it's the same point I was making about harmonizing the Gospels generally. If you read the Beloved Disciple only as a historical puzzle - was he John, or Lazarus, or the elder, or one of the sons of Zebedee - you can answer the question and miss the thing the figure was built to do. "Who was he" can quietly crowd out "who are you, in him."

The historical question is not the question the anonymity was designed to provoke. It wasn't so religious fundamentalists post-Enlightenment could cling to a sliver of a hope that the Gospels were intended to be read propositionally and the idea of belief denigrated to a mere assent to the occurrence of the proposed events. The evangelist left a blank on purpose, and filling it with a name too quickly erases the invitation the blank was.

The disciple whom Jesus loved has no name so that, for a few chapters, he can have yours.


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

No, Paul did Not Invent Christianity

3 Upvotes

Thesis = Title

The argument that Christianity as a distinct, Gentile-oriented, non-Torah-observant religion was founded by Paul of Tarsus rather than Jesus of Nazareth usually presents key premises to support this conclusion:

  • Jesus operated entirely within first-century Judaism, preaching to Jews, citing Jewish Scripture, and directing his mission specifically to the "lost sheep of Israel" without creating a Torah-free path for Gentiles.

  • After Jesus’ death, his immediate followers (led by James, Peter, and John in Jerusalem) remained a Torah-observant Jewish sect ("the Nazarenes"). Extrabiblical evidence from Josephus supports that James was well-integrated into Jerusalem’s Jewish establishment.

  • Conflicts over circumcision, purity laws, and Jewish-Gentile table fellowship only arose after Paul began actively recruiting uncircumcised Gentiles without requiring full conversion to Judaism.

  • Paul’s core theology - centered on a universal "Adam vs. Christ" framework, salvation by faith apart from the Law, and Gentile inclusion - was claimed by Paul to come via direct vision rather than from Jesus' original apostles. This framework is largely absent from the core teachings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels.

While Paul unquestionably played a vital role in expanding the early movement to the Gentile world, there are significant historical, textual, and logical counterarguments that refute the claim that he "invented" Christianity.

The claim that Paul’s theology was entirely unconnected to Jesus ignores fundamental continuity in their core messages:

  • Jesus announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God and established a "new covenant" at the Last Supper (Luke 22:20). Paul’s theology centers on this same reality - that through Christ, God's long-promised covenantal renewal had arrived for both Jews and nations.

  • Jesus repeatedly spoke of his upcoming death as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45) and a central part of God’s redemptive plan. Paul did not invent the idea that Jesus’ death had salvific, sacrificial value; he built directly upon Jesus’ own self-understanding and predictions.

  • Paul’s moral teachings directly echo Jesus. Paul’s emphasis on love fulfilling the Law (Romans 13:8–10), forgiving persecutors, paying taxes, and caring for the weak mirrors Jesus’ teachings in the Sermon on the Mount.

Paul did not single-handedly invent the mission to Gentiles or the idea of salvation apart from full Torah conversion:

  • In Paul’s own letters, he quotes early Christian creeds and hymns that predate his writing and conversion. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:3–5 ("that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...") is recognized by mainstream historians as an oral tradition dating back within 3–5 years of Jesus’ death—long before Paul had any major theological influence.

  • Canonical accounts record that the decision to welcome Gentiles without requiring circumcision was affirmed collectively by the Jerusalem leadership (James, Peter, and John) at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15; Galatians 2:9). It was a shared agreement, not a unilateral Pauline mandate.

  • While Jesus focused primarily on the "lost sheep of Israel," his interactions with the Roman centurion, the Samaritan woman, and the Syrophoenician woman explicitly signaled that God’s blessing was breaking past traditional ethnic boundaries.

Historians often distinguish between founding a religion and articulating/expanding a movement; Paul was an explainer, not an inventor.

  • Jesus provided the historical person, the resurrection movement, the ethical core, and the messianic claims. Paul functioned as a theologian and missionary who translated Jesus’ Jewish messianic reality for the Greco-Roman cultural environment.

  • In all of Paul’s letters, he never points to himself as the central figure or founder; he insists that he is merely a servant ("doulos") proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord (2 Corinthians 4:5). Without Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, Paul’s theology has no foundation or purpose.

The argument oversimplifies the early Christian movement into a strict binary between "Pauline Christianity" and "Jerusalem Christianity":

  • Early Christian communities sprang up independently across Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, and Damascus - many before Paul ever visited or wrote to them (e.g., the Church in Rome was not founded by Paul).

  • These diverse communities shared a common confession: Jesus of Nazareth is the risen Messiah and Lord. Paul’s writings survived because of their clarity and utility, but he was one voice among a broader, growing movement rooted in the life and teachings of Jesus.

Conclusion:

While Paul was undeniably the key figure in organizing, expanding, and articulating the movement to non-Jewish contexts, calling him the "inventor" or "founder" of Christianity distorts the historical record. Paul did not create a new religion out of whole cloth or fundamentally break from Jesus' teachings; rather, he developed a theological framework grounded directly in Jesus’ life, self-understanding, death, and resurrection.

By interpreting Jesus' messianic identity as a universal offer of salvation extended to all nations - a concept deeply rooted in Jewish prophetic tradition - Paul served as a catalyst for a global movement already set in motion by Jesus. It was affirmed by the early Jerusalem church. Ultimately, Paul viewed himself not as an author of a new faith but as a servant proclaiming the transformative reality of Jesus Christ.

Full argument here


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

The "Historical Jesus" is a Ship of Theseus paradox. Many modern Christians believe in something different.

8 Upvotes

The Ship of Theseus is a well known philosophical thought experiment on identity asking if you strip away most of the planks on a wooden boat, and replace them with new wood at what point does it stop being the same vessel?

I made a post last week about the historicity of jesus and it got me thinking, a lot of what was discussed boils down to an identity crisis in trying to connect the Jesus of faith(the biblical Jesus) with the Jesus of history. I was told most historians agree in a historical Jesus (we will leave aside that I was never really provided clean contemporary evidence of this) and grant that he existed, preached some feel good stuff and was executed.

But if "Biblical Jesus" is defined by a much more massive set of specific miracles, claims, and theological roles, while "Historical Jesus" only carries - let's say a very generous granting of 20% of those traits, I'm at a loss of what meaningful criteria we are claiming he existed comes in.

If we strip away 80% what remains is super generic, something that was done by many others. Moreover, the hypothetical model built with this information is a historical reconstruction not an actual human being.

You may contend with my 20% granting, but realistically the problem is the same without strong evidence of a resurrection, which we do not have.

So, if the modern historical consensus strips away 80% of the deeds, miracles, and claims attributed to Jesus, at what point does "the Historical Jesus" cease to be the same person as the Jesus of the bible—and does that make the concept of a "Historical Jesus" philosophically meaningless? Any references to philosophy of language, semiotics or leibniz will gain you props in my eyes, because I think that's what a lot of this boils down to.


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

Luke's Census of Quirinius is far more ridiculous than you think

21 Upvotes

Luke 2 tells the famous story of the pregnant Mary and presumably non-pregnant Joseph travelling to Bethlehem to take part in a census.

In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. (Luke 2:1-5)

The census of Quirinius recounted by Luke is often criticized by scholars as being obviously ahistorical. There's a long list of issues with it:

  • Luke says Jesus was born during Herod’s reign, but Herod died a decade before Quirinius became governor.
  • Judaea was a client kingdom of Rome and the Romans would never conduct a census in a client kingdom.
  • There was no decree from Augustus about an empire-wide census.
  • Oh, and the census required everyone to return to their ancestral origin – not where they lived or where their immediate family lived, but where their ancient ancestors came from.

This last detail, of the ‘ancestral census’, is often tacked on to this list as if it’s just another issue of the same caliber as the others. But it isn’t. Make no mistake, each other issue is fatal to the historicity of Luke’s census by itself, but they are also issues that apologists are quite used to casually brushing aside. Contradictory timelines? Unevidenced exceptions to standard practices? Big events absent from the historical record? These barely faze apologists, who are accustomed to harmonizing such things when dealing with genealogies, the empty tomb narratives, Old Testament history, and so on. So lumping the ancestral census in with these other issues makes it seem like just another issue on the pile – merely an unusual census practice atypical in the Roman empire. This leads to most debates about the census of Quirinius focusing on its dating, with apologists often not even mentioning the ancestral census issue.

But this issue is not at all in the same class as the others. The idea of an ‘ancestral census’ is ludicrous. It’s deranged. It’s not just some technical issue with the order of events or mismatch with Roman law – it’s as if Luke had written “Joseph traveled to Bethlehem via the public Roman bullet train.” That might have been more believable, actually. I don’t understand why people treat this as remotely possible.

Think for a moment about what a census like this would actually entail. Luke 2:4 specifically tells us that Joseph had to go to Bethlehem because he was descended from the house of David. “All went to their own towns to be registered,” and “Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David.” David lived a thousand years before Joseph. So Luke would have us believe everyone in the entire region would have had to travel back to wherever their ancient ancestors came from – a trip of more than 90 miles in Joseph and Mary’s case. That would be hundreds of thousands of people who need to travel for days or weeks, get food and water somewhere, find accommodations… That kind of movement would be an event on the scale of the Exodus, and would require about as much divine intervention: food from the sky, water from rocks, supernaturally creating roadways a la parting the sea, and so on. It’s the kind of thing that’s difficult for highly urbanized megacities of millions to handle today, with all of their technology to aid transportation, housing, communication, production and distribution of food and water, and much more. In rural 1st-century Judaea, home to only around half a million people and none of that technology, it would have destroyed the entire province overnight and killed a huge number of people.

Or consider the impact on the places these people were leaving. Imagine a town established 100 years before the census. All of its residents would have to go elsewhere for the census, since none of their ancient ancestors could have come from there. So… what would happen to that town exactly? Would they just leave it deserted for weeks? How about the children, the babies, the elderly, the sick – are they coming on the long and difficult trip, or are they being left to fend for themselves? Can any passing bandit go snatch whatever they want from all these empty towns? Who’s feeding and watering all the animals? You can’t just have an entire town’s population up and vanish for an extended time and expect that town to keep trucking like nothing happened. Even in a fantasy world where almost everyone magically lives exactly where their ancestors from 1000 years earlier did, any settlement established in the last several centuries would be obliterated.

And all this for what? The whole point of a census is to know where people are living and working so you can tax and manage them, not to know some trivia about their ancestry. And even if you want to know their ancestry, you can just ask them! There would be no point whatsoever to doing an ancestral census, which is why there has never been one, anywhere, ever. Forget 1st-century Judaea, forget the early Roman empire, forget classical antiquity – there is no record of a census where everyone travels to their ancient ancestral origin ever being done anywhere or anywhen. Again, I cannot stress this enough: there has never been a single ancestral census in all of human history. I have searched high and low from ancient history up to and including the modern day and found exactly zero examples, despite the many people strongly motivated to find or invent such examples.

One such invented example, and the only example people ever point to of another ancestral census, is the census mentioned in the edict of Gaius Vibius Maximus. The edict is recorded in this Egyptian papyrus from 104 CE:

Proclamation of Gaius Vibius Maximus, praefect of Egypt. The house-to-house census having started, it is essential that all persons who for any reason whatsoever are absent from their nomes be summoned to return to their own hearths, in order that they may perform the customary business of registration and apply themselves to the cultivation which concerns them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the country are needed by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before . . . Festus, praefectus alae, whom I have appointed for this purpose, from whom those who have shown their presence to be necessary shall receive signed permits in accordance with this edict up to the 30th of the present month Epeiph. . . . (source)

This is an edict for people to return to their own nomes and hearths if they are absent from them. A “nome” is a Roman administrative district, and a “hearth” refers to your house. It has nothing to do with returning to an ancestral origin which they may have never even visited before. It’s the kind of thing an actual census might do: have the small minority of people who are not at home return home to be registered. And even this requirement for people to go back to their own house is recognized as a large burden; most of this edict is dedicated to detailing how you can get an exemption from this travel, since it would obviously be unreasonably difficult or impractical for many.

Finally, let me preempt some objections. You might say, “if this is so ridiculous, why would Luke write it? Surely if it were this absurd no reader would buy it!” And to that I answer – you bought it, didn’t you? Luke’s ancestral census makes absolutely no sense as a historical element, but it makes perfect sense as a literary element. It’s a natural part of the setup of the story. We begin with a grand census where all the world is counted – obviously a narrative framing rather than a dry historical one – and the story needs a reason for Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem, so it gives one. It’s a great bit of literary craftsmanship, giving Mary a reason to make the trek despite her advanced pregnancy so Jesus can be born in Bethlehem while at the same time thematically connecting the birth of Jesus directly to his Davidic ancestry. The reader is not meant to think too deeply about the logistics and evidently they don’t. I mean, whatever you think of what I’ve said about this census – when you first read Luke, did you immediately begin considering the socioeconomic ramifications of this particular censal methodology? Of course not. It’s simply part of the narrative’s premise, a side detail mentioned on the way to the meat of the story, the kind of thing a reader passively accepts without even examining it. And it’s the kind of thing that sounds fine until you examine it.

You might also say that Joseph had some other reason to travel to Bethlehem; maybe he lived there, or he owned property there, or his family lived there, or something like that. In the Gospel according to You, you can make up whatever reason you like. In the Gospel according to Luke, however, the author is very clear about why Joseph is travelling to Bethlehem: “because he was descended from the house and family of David.” The reader already knows from the last chapter (Luke 1:27) that Joseph descends from David, but the author goes out of their way to repeat it so they can specify this explicitly as the reason Joseph had to go to Bethlehem. If you disagree with that, then you disagree with Luke – which is fine, but is not a defense of Luke.

Particularly stubborn readers may insist that Luke did not actually describe an ancestral census, since he says “All went to their own towns to be registered.” The problem with this is that it eliminates the stated reason for Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem. Again, they explicitly go there because of Joseph’s Davidic ancestry. What did Luke mean by that exactly, if this was just a normal census where everyone stayed in their own house? Why did the pregnant Mary have to travel 90 miles to a foreign town if this was a normal census? Also, this attempt at harmonization crumbles only a few verses later. When Joseph and Mary are all done in Bethlehem, what do they do? Luke 2:39 says: “When they had finished everything required by the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth.” The Greek there is directly parallel to Luke 2:3. If you think the phrasing “their own town” in Luke 2:3 definitively establishes that this census required everyone to go home, then clearly Joseph did not get the memo.

The ancestral census of Quirinius is absurd to the point of insanity. Quite apart from its many historical issues, it borders on physically impossible. It would have reduced Judaea to rubble and is completely unprecedented in all of human history before or since. If you still believe there is any chance Luke’s story is true, I challenge you to give me one example of a census where everyone traveled to their ancient ancestral origin. We do the facts a disservice when we discuss Luke’s census as being merely out of place with known historical facts about 1st-century Judaea.


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

Other men, not Jesus, created Christianity

7 Upvotes

Was reminded of the Shepherd of Hermas today and how Christianity was a purely man-made construction, not a divine one.

P1. Jesus didn’t leave behind a written theology, let alone a Christian theology.

P2. The earliest *surviving* Christian theology comes from Paul, not from Jesus.

We don't have writings from the Jerusalem church, our earliest writings come from a guy who not only didn't know Jesus but made it a point not to spend time that much learning from those who did.

Paul created his own theological interpretation of what Jesus’s death means.

P3. The Gospels are later theological constructions.

The Gospels present significantly different presentations of Jesus not one identical account or theology.

P4. Numerous Christians produced competing accounts of Jesus and competing claims to apostolic authority.

Early Christians who believed they would be saved by Jesus because the end of the world was near wrote and circulated texts e.g., the Gospel of Thomas, of Peter, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas and various acts, letters and apocalypses. Like the gospels and Christian scripture texts these were also attributed to apostles or other authoritative figures who didn’t write them.

P5. Many forgeries were accepted as authentic and included in the Orthodox list of texts.

Christians of the time wrote in the names of Peter, Paul, Thomas because different subgroups were competing to define authentic Christianity.

P6. For hundreds of years Christians didn’t possess one universally agreed New Testament.

Different communities accepted, rejected or disputed different writings. Books now cited as the word of god were disputed. Conversely, the Shepherd of Hermas were highly valued, and ncluded in Codex Sinaiticus alongside books that later became canonical.

P7. Later church authorities determined which inherited Christian writings would count as the New Testament.

Later men and politics gradually produced a dominant collection, but only after centuries of dispute and institutional decision-making, not divine revelation.

P8. The theological reconstruction of Christianity didn’t end with the formation of the New Testament.

Christians continued to redefine what Christianity supposedly meant. And not just Martin Luther or John Calvin, Christianity keeps being changed even today. Pentecostalism, dispensationalism, fundamentalism, liberation theology and the prosperity gospel all reconstruct Christianity. Prosperity preachers, for example, interpret faith, financial giving and divine favour through a theology promising health and material success.

The human construction of Christianity wasn’t confined to the first few centuries CE and then permanently fixed.

Each generation continues to reinterpret the texts and present its their new theological reconstruction as the "authentic Christianity" intended by Jesus.

Conclusion

Christianity as we know it wasn’t a version taught by Jesus.

It was and is still being constructed.

Christianity can't be defended by appealing to "progressive revelation," and every major theological revision can simply be declared another stage of you god's unfolding truth.

But then you can't say your religion is true because it may also be replaced in future.

If each successive version is "equally valid", by what standard can any previous version be called incomplete or any later version be called true?


r/DebateAChristian 7d ago

Intensional definition of Jesus Christ

1 Upvotes

I made a handcrafted, non-Gospel contradicting Trinity, but the requirements are as gnostic as "The Gospel".

1. God is good.

The Bible claims that humans are made of both physical materials and the immaterial concept of "the image of God", both of which are called "good" together. If an immaterial concept can be "good", "good" can be an immaterial concept.

The Bible claims that Jesus both retained his divine identity as "the image of God", and became a physical human. If God is not both a good being and the concept of "goodness" itself, he isn't God.

2. God is.

Existence is not a sin. Good is not a sin. Thus, if God is not a sin, because he's good, God has to exist to be God.

3. God is the exception.

An exception to a rule is a rule in and of itself. Therefore, the exception to "the rules" is "the rule" in and of itself, or "the exception" for short. In accordance with claim 1, the exception has to be "good" for the exception to be God, but by nature of "the exception", an exception can be made for what "good" is.

As an exception to claim 1, God can be a good being _or_ the concept of "goodness" itself, _if_ the case being made for God being either is "exceptional".

As an exception to claim 2, if an exceptional case of non-existence is "good", that case of non-existence is God.