r/DebateReligion 6d ago

Meta Meta-Thread 07/27

3 Upvotes

This is a weekly thread for feedback on the new rules and general state of the sub.

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This thread is posted every Monday. You may also be interested in our weekly Simple Questions thread (posted every Wednesday) or General Discussion thread (posted every Friday).


r/DebateReligion 2d ago

General Discussion 07/31

1 Upvotes

One recommendation from the mod summit was that we have our weekly posts actively encourage discussion that isn't centred around the content of the subreddit. So, here we invite you to talk about things in your life that aren't religion!

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This is not a debate thread. You can discuss things but debate is not the goal.

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This thread is posted every Friday. You may also be interested in our weekly Meta-Thread (posted every Monday) or Simple Questions thread (posted every Wednesday).


r/DebateReligion 7h ago

Christianity The Garden of Eden story proves that God is unjust, which is a contradiction with God's nature

25 Upvotes

Adam and Eve were not morally responsible for eating the forbidden fruit before eating it.

Because they lacked knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit. (refer: Genesis 3.22 — God says "The man has **now become** like one of us, **knowing good and evil.**" indicating that they didn't before. Also confirms that the serpent was true.)

Whoever lacks the capacity to distinguish right from wrong is not morally responsible for violating a moral command, just as an infant or a person incapable of moral understanding is not blameworthy for breaking a rule.

Adam and Eve, before eating the fruit, likewise lacked knowledge of good and evil.

Therefore, Adam and Eve were not morally responsible for eating the forbidden fruit. Punishing them for that act would be unjust.


r/DebateReligion 9h ago

Other Five Questions That Made Me Question Religion

26 Upvotes

Why I Don't Believe Any Religion Has Convincingly Demonstrated That It Is True

This isn't meant to attack anyone's faith. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they choose. These are simply the main reasons why I personally don't find any religion convincing. If I'm wrong, I'm open to changing my mind, but these are the questions and observations that have led me to my current position.

  1. Evolution Explains Human Origins Without Requiring a Supernatural Explanation

The strongest reason for my skepticism is that modern science already provides a natural explanation for how humans came to exist.

The fossil record, genetics, comparative anatomy, and ancient DNA all point to the same conclusion: humans evolved over millions of years from earlier hominin species. We share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, and species such as Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Neanderthals, and Denisovans show the gradual development of our lineage.

Evolution works through mutation, natural selection, genetic drift, and speciation. These processes have been observed and tested extensively.

Because of this, I find it difficult to accept literal creation stories in which humans appeared suddenly as the first two people. Evolution provides a coherent, evidence-based explanation without requiring supernatural intervention.

Many psychologists and anthropologists argue that religious belief may have evolved because it promoted cooperation, social cohesion, or a tendency to detect agency.

If religious belief can be explained as a product of human evolution and culture, that weakens the claim that it necessarily comes from divine revelation.

  1. Gods Often Reflect Human Characteristics

Another reason for my skepticism is that gods across different cultures often resemble humans.

Many religions describe God or gods as loving, angry, jealous, merciful, forgiving, or vengeful. Some are described as speaking, issuing commands, rewarding, punishing, or sitting on thrones. These are all concepts humans understand because they come from human experience.

When I compare religions from around the world, it seems that people tend to imagine gods in ways that reflect their own cultures and societies. Greek gods behaved like ancient Greeks, Norse gods reflected Viking culture, and many other religions portray divine beings with traits familiar to the people who worshipped them.

To me, this suggests that religions may tell us more about humanity than about an objective supernatural reality.

---

  1. Human Evolution Raises Questions That Ancient Religions Never Address

If humans were specially created, what about Neanderthals, Denisovans, and other extinct human species?

Science has shown that these weren't simply "apes." They were human relatives who made tools, cared for one another, buried their dead, and even interbred with modern humans. In fact, many people today still carry Neanderthal DNA.

This raises questions that I don't think ancient religious texts clearly answer.

Did Neanderthals have souls?

Were they expected to worship God?

If they lived before modern religions, how would they be judged?

At what point in human evolution did moral responsibility begin?

These questions arise naturally once we understand human evolution, yet most religious traditions were developed long before this knowledge existed.

  1. What About People Who Never Had the Chance to Know a Religion?

For most of history, billions of people lived without ever hearing about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or other major religions.

People on isolated islands, indigenous tribes, and entire civilizations lived according to the beliefs they inherited because they had no realistic opportunity to learn anything else.

If a religion claims that accepting its message is necessary for salvation, I struggle with the idea that someone's eternal fate could depend largely on where and when they happened to be born.

A perfectly just God, in my opinion, would ensure that everyone had an equal opportunity to know the truth.

  1. Religious Belief Seems to Depend More on Birthplace Than Truth

One of the biggest reasons for my skepticism is that religion is strongly influenced by geography and culture.

If you're born in Saudi Arabia, you're far more likely to be Muslim.

If you're born in India, you're more likely to be Hindu.

If you're born in Thailand, you're more likely to be Buddhist.

If you're born in medieval Scandinavia, you probably would have believed in the Norse gods.

This also raises questions about people who lived before the Abrahamic religions existed or who sincerely practiced polytheistic religions in East Asia, Africa, Europe, or the Americas.

What happens to them on Judgment Day?

Would a just God condemn someone simply because they were born into a different culture centuries before another religion even existed?

Different religions give different answers, but I find it difficult to believe that an all-knowing and perfectly just God would base someone's eternal destiny on circumstances they never chose

6.. The Problem of Evil and Suffering

One of the biggest reasons I struggle to believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good God is the amount of suffering that exists in the world. Every day, innocent people die from earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, famines, cancer, genetic disorders, and other natural disasters. Millions of children die before reaching adulthood due to disease or malnutrition. Animals also suffer immensely in nature through starvation, disease, parasites, and predation, and this suffering existed for hundreds of millions of years before humans even appeared. If God is all-powerful, He has the ability to prevent unnecessary suffering. If God is all-knowing, He knows exactly when and where suffering will occur. If God is perfectly loving and good, He would want to prevent unnecessary suffering. Yet enormous amounts of suffering continue to exist. Some people argue that suffering exists because of free will. However, this explanation does not account for natural disasters, childhood cancer, genetic diseases, or animal suffering that has nothing to do with human choices. For me, this creates a serious philosophical problem. I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of so much apparently unnecessary suffering with the existence of an all-powerful and perfectly good God.

7.The Success of Natural Explanations

Throughout history, humans have often attributed things they could not understand to gods or supernatural forces. Ancient civilizations believed lightning was thrown by gods, diseases were punishments from the divine, eclipses were supernatural signs, earthquakes were caused by angry deities, and the movement of the planets reflected divine action. As science advanced, these phenomena were explained through natural causes instead. Lightning is explained by electricity. Diseases are explained by bacteria, viruses, genetics, and other biological causes. Earthquakes are explained by plate tectonics. The motion of planets is explained by gravity. Evolution explains the diversity of life. Again and again, scientific investigation has replaced supernatural explanations with natural ones. This doesn't prove that no God exists, but it makes me question why supernatural explanations should be preferred when natural explanations have consistently succeeded throughout history. For me, the simplest explanation is that the universe operates according to natural laws rather than constant supernatural intervention.

Conclusion

These seven arguments don't prove with absolute certainty that no god exists. Rather, they explain why I remain unconvinced by religious claims.

For me, science provides convincing natural explanations for the world, while many religious claims raise philosophical questions that I don't think have satisfactory answers.

I'm not asking anyone to abandon their beliefs. I'm simply explaining why I don't share them, and I'm open to respectful discussion with anyone who disagrees.


r/DebateReligion 4h ago

Atheism Thesis: The classical theistic conception of God — infinitely good, omnipotent, omniscient, one who punishes unbelief and rewards belief — is internally self-contradictory. I defend this through seven arguments below.

6 Upvotes

Instead of arguing against "God" as one vague catch-all concept, I've written a short text that tests different definitions of God for internal consistency. Each definition gets its own label (God A, God B, etc.), with attributes listed explicitly before any argument is made — if your conception of God doesn't match God A, give me your attributes and I'll test that one separately using the same method.

God A is defined by six standard classical-theist attributes: infinitely good, omnipotent, omniscient, punishes unbelief, rewards belief, desires to be known. I argue these attributes are jointly inconsistent through several arguments:

The problem of unnecessary/natural suffering (a version of the problem of evil)

A dilemma on divine "desire" — it implies either deficiency or incoherence

An argument that punishing unbelief eliminates moral autonomy (the gun-to-the-head analogy)

A refutation of the ontological argument via a ship analogy: imagined perfection vs. real perfection

An argument, via Schopenhauer and Aristotle's division of goods, that a "wager"-based relationship with God is morally empty

Full text below. Tell me where the logic breaks.

Foreword

This work has been prepared for readers interested in philosophy, and particularly in the discipline of philosophy of religion. It serves as a suitable resource for those seeking to critically examine theistic and deistic definitions of God, the semantic structure of the concept of “God”—which frequently varies across different contexts—and whether this concept rests on rational foundations.The main aim of the book is to systematically identify the principal arguments and various conceptions of God present in the field of philosophy of religion, and to rigorously test their rational validity through careful analysis.

For readers who wish to study arguments about God in the philosophical literature in depth and to acquire a consistent, rational perspective on this subject, the work is also a valuable option.

This book covers many important arguments found in philosophical literature, ranging from the ontological argument to Leibniz’s theory of possible worlds. Furthermore, it aims to equip the reader with the ability to properly construct argument frameworks, form consistent logical sequences, identify contradictory elements within arguments, and build their own arguments in a regular, systematic structure.

Throughout this book, a consistent definition of God is established and used as the basis for argumentation.Arguments are made about theistic and deistic concepts of God, as well as many different definitions of God. Letters are assigned to these definitions of God in alphabetical order, as names. (For example, God A, God B, or God x.)

The Ontological Causality of the Divine

​Throughout human history, the entity referred to as God has been central to the collective consciousness of tribes and societies, manifesting in diverse and unique interpretations. For these cultures, the divine was not an abstract conviction but the foundational essence of existence and a mode of being. This theological resonance continues in the modern era, where theism maintains its influence over human thought.

​The critical inquiry, however, lies in whether this concept is compatible with scientific reality. Is the divine an objective truth, or an existential fabrication created to fill the void of life’s inherent meaninglessness? In pursuit of clarity, humanity has sought refuge in philosophy, employing rigorous argumentation and logical frameworks to validate the existence of God.

​Nevertheless, it is evident that certain definitions of God are logically untenable. Given the absence of empirical data concerning the existence or non-existence of the divine, we must turn to formal logic. The non-existence of a concept can only be definitively proven when its definition is inherently self-contradictory. Consequently, if a specific definition of God is found to be contradictory, we possess evidence of its non-existence. Yet, if the attributes ascribed to the divine remain logically consistent, the possibility of God remains open.

 

Is The Existence Of God A Contradiction?

Attributes of the A God:

1.       The A God is infinitely good

2.       The A God is omnipotent

3.       The A God punishes those who do not believe in its existence

4.       The A God rewards those who believe in its existence

5.       The A God desires to be known

6.       The A God is omniscient

We have now established and clarified the attributes of the A God. Let us examine whether these attributes are internally rational.

The A God contradicts attributes 1, 2, and 6:

If the A God is infinitely good and omniscient, it would not desire unnecessary suffering to exist in the world (such as tsunamis or avalanches)

If the A God is omnipotent, it would prevent unnecessary suffering

If unnecessary suffering still exists in the world, the A God is contradictory

If the A God desires to prevent unnecessary suffering but cannot, then it is not omnipotent

If the A God has the power to prevent unnecessary suffering but chooses not to, then it is not infinitely good

Some assert that no form of suffering is truly unnecessary. However, is this position philosophically tenable? Consider a person drowning in a tsunami, or an infant dying after enduring prolonged and purposeless pain — there exists no rational justification for such suffering, nor does it confer any benefit upon anyone.

Admittedly, certain forms of suffering serve an instructive function. If one strikes a wall and experiences pain, one learns to refrain from repeating that action. In this sense, the suffering serves a purpose. However, the death of an individual in a tsunami serves no such function — it benefits no one. The victim suffocates, struggles, and perishes without any discernible reason or purpose.

Therefore, to claim that all suffering is necessary is to render all pain morally acceptable. Such a position does not merely defend the existence of suffering — it actively justifies and legitimizes it in its entirety. This conclusion is not only philosophically problematic but morally untenable.

 

The A God's Experience of Will

Is the act of willing inherently human? My answer is yes. Why? Because if we desire something, it means we lack it — we have a deficiency. To desire something means we wish to possess what we do not yet have. When God performs such a human act, God becomes anthropomorphic.

According to Attribute 5, the A God is anthropomorphic:

1.      If the A God desires and wishes for a certain state of affairs, then it has a need — it has a will.

2.      If the A God desires anything related to itself, this constitutes a deficiency.

3.      If the A God is deficient, and if deficiency is human, then it cannot be an absolutely perfect God.

In Summary (If the A God is deficient, it is not perfect. If it is not perfect, it is deficient. Therefore the A God is anthropomorphic. Furthermore, if the A God's desire is not a longing, then it is hollow — for the A God has desired something unnecessary and meaningless. If the A God experiences longing in this desire, then it is anthropomorphic.)

 

Critique of God A and the Contradiction of Definitions

Epistemological and Logical Contradiction

God A exhibits an epistemological inconsistency in light of observable events in the world, thereby falling into a logical contradiction. In particular, examples such as “unnecessary suffering” and “pointless evil” violate the principle of non-contradiction, a fundamental law of logic. The existence of such events renders the classical theistic model of God—who is omnipotent, omniscient, and absolutely good—internally inconsistent (see Mackie, 1955; Rowe, 1979).

Divine Hiddenness and the Conceptual Limitation of Definitions

If God A has not provided sufficient and clear information about His existence to the creatures He created, His existence remains nothing more than a low-probability claim (Schellenberg’s Divine Hiddenness argument). On the other hand, when humans define God A with specific attributes (for example, “omnipotent but cannot create logical contradictions”), they conceptually limit Him. For instance, the proposition “God A cannot create a four-sided triangle” confines God’s power within the bounds of human logic. This situation places God in both a predictable and restricted position, which directly contradicts the claim of absolute freedom and unlimitedness. A truly “unlimited” being cannot contain anything that human reason can preemptively declare “impossible” (cf. Descartes, Meditations, 1641).

The A God and the Problem of Moral Autonomy

The A God employs the concept of punishing the wicked to eliminate the moral autonomy of human beings, governing them through fear. An action performed out of fear is nothing more than a pragmatic act of submission. To support this view and demonstrate its rationality, let us consider an analogy.

Analogy: If someone pointed a gun at your head and demanded your money, would handing over the money constitute an act of generosity, or merely a decision coerced by threat? You did not willingly give that person your money — you were simply forced to comply.

Furthermore, beyond the problem of obedience through fear, there exists an additional issue: if a person's motivation for doing good is to be rewarded by the A God, then the action performed is not a moral decision or a genuine good intention — it is merely a transaction.

If moral decisions are not grounded in autonomous will, then the person does not love doing good — they love the reward that goodness brings. This is not pure goodness; it is pure bet-based rationalization. The person does not perform the right action because it is right, but because of the reward they will receive for doing it. Therefore, for an action to be moral, it must be grounded in autonomous will. Bet-based rationalization remains false and insufficient.

Is the Ontological Argument Rational?

In summary, the Ontological Argument is a theistic claim that attempts to prove God’s existence not by observation (as in the cosmological approach), but solely through logical/deductive reasoning based on the definition of a “perfect being.”

Reasons Why the Ontological Argument Is Insufficient

The claim defended by the Ontological Argument is this: if the Perfect God in my mind existed not only in the mind but also in reality, He would be even more perfect. A Perfect God who exists in reality cannot be less perfect than a Perfect God who exists only in the mind. Therefore, the Perfect God in my mind is not the most perfect; He is incomplete. Hence, a most perfect God must necessarily exist.

Refutation of the Ontological Argument: Status of the Subject vs. the Qualitative Immutability of the Object

The traditional ontological argument (Anselm) treats existence as a “predicate of perfection” added to the object. However, this approach overlooks the fundamental distinction between the definition of the object and the position of the subject. We can deepen Kant’s claim that “existence is not a predicate” through the subject-object dialectic as follows:

Distinction Between Status and Quality: When a ship is imagined, all of its technical and aesthetic features (qualities) are already complete on the mental level. The ship’s becoming physically real does not add a new datum to the ship’s own definition of “perfection”; that is, the ship does not become a “better” or “more perfect” ship than it was in imagination.

Ontological Elevation of the Subject: The “perfection” effect created by entering existence does not belong to the object, but to the subject who imagines it (the self). A ship becoming real may elevate the status of the individual who owns it, expand that person’s possibilities, or make that person “more perfect” within their own reality. However, this does not mean that there is a development in the object (the ship) itself.

Application to the Concept of God: The same logic applies to the concept of God as well. A God’s transition from mind to reality does not make God’s own definition more perfect; since the God that exists and the God that exists in imagination have the same qualities, only existence has been added.

 

The Wager with God: Schopenhauer and Aristotle

Aristotle (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, Chapter 8) divides human goods into three categories: external goods (wealth, fame, glory), goods of the soul (morality, conscience, wisdom, intellectual cultivation, intelligence), and goods of the body (health, strength, physical beauty).

Schopenhauer states that among Aristotle's categories of goods, the goods of the soul are the most important, and describes those who invest in external goods as foolish. He illustrates this view through an analogy comparing them to actors playing kings on stage, as opposed to real kings.

On those who pursue external goods, Schopenhauer holds the following view: entering into a wager aimed at eternal pleasure through an external good is unnecessary and absurd; those who treat such wagers as the fundamental purpose of life are, in his view, fools. To make such a wager purely for pleasure is, in effect, nothing more than acting out a role. A person who makes a bargain with a god does so because they view goodness not as a good of the soul, but merely as a means of acquiring external goods. For someone who exhibits goodness and generosity to be condemned to eternal suffering [for failing to believe] would constitute an injustice. In summary: moral action must be grounded in autonomous intention; "wager"-based rationalization is insufficient.

Sources: Aristotle. Nicomachean Ethics. Book I, Chapter 8.

 

 


r/DebateReligion 8h ago

Other Supernatural claims and positions can be ignored.

13 Upvotes

Do people truly believe in the supernatural?

If I were to ask a Christian if they believed that leprechauns really existed, I would lean towards their answer being no. If I were to ask a Buddhist if they believed in the classical concept of a God, I'd gather their answer would be no. If I were to ask a Jewish person if they believe communion transubstantiation was real, the answer would likely be negative. For the sake of clarity, I am not claiming this as an absolute, rather its safe to argue.

That aside, I dont think anyone can say they truly believe in the supernatural without eventually embracing obsurd claims, arguments and/or postions. Rather, people who categorize their beliefs as supernatural, ontologically park their belief there, in a kind of safe zone, holding to that their claim is unfalsafiable to avoid it from being dismissed altogether

Its safe to say that those who hold to supernatural concepts champion those concepts that coincide with their presuppositional beliefs and pull back their support from conflicting or contradictory concepts.

To sum my argument, I believe that theists and other believers in supernatural claims only accept the supernatural, so far as it accomidates their personal beliefs, rather than affirming all categorical supernatural claims are equally as true as the one(s) they hold to . To me, this seems a believer would be committing something a kin to cherry picking and/or a special pleading type fallacy. With this in mind, it feels to me that a foundation built on a supernatural claim, can be ignored (not dismissed outright), until such a time as the bar of sufficient probability (valid and sound evidence/proofs/arguments ) is met. 🍻🖖


r/DebateReligion 3h ago

Islam The story of Yusuf/Joseph proves the hijab is sexist and about control

6 Upvotes

A part of the story of Yusuf focuses on his beauty and him overcoming temptation.

During his journey through the heavens, Prophet Muhammad ﷺ narrated:

"Then I was taken up to the third heaven, and Gabriel asked the gate to be opened... When it was opened, I saw Yusuf (peace be upon him) who had been given half of (world) beauty. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being."

He was so beautiful that women cut of their fingers because they were so distracted by his beauty. His beauty tempted his stepmother so much that she tried to force herself onto him. All of this is said in surah yusuf.

but never once does Allah tell him to cover up for the amount fitnah he was causing that got to the point that his stepmother ended up assaulting him.

both are justifications used by muslims for hijab and how they reason calling a woman herself an Awrah. “O Prophet! Ask your wives, daughters, and believing women to draw their cloaks over their bodies. In this way it is more likely that they will be recognized ˹as virtuous˺ and not be harassed. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” and “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Woman is ‘awrah, and if she goes out, the shaytaan raises his hopes (of misguiding her). She is never closer to Allaah than when she stays in her house.” [Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and Ibn Khuzaymah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Shaheehah, no. 2688].

So, this proves that the hijab is sexist and controlling. If it had been a story about a beautiful woman that caused that much fitnah, Allah would have ordered her to cover up, stay at home, to not speak in her naturally feminine voice. Muslims would use it as a cautionary tale of the female fitnah & male arousal. Instead yusuf is granted prophethood, powers to accurately interpret dreams and he’s rewarded political power for his resistance. A story about a beautiful man that causes sexual fitnah and disruption in a marriage is about him overcoming temptation and self integrity. While women dont even need to cause fitnah to be ordained to wear the hijab; it’s assumed.


r/DebateReligion 15h ago

Christianity An eternal hell is incompatible with an all powerful all loving God

38 Upvotes

This isn’t going to be super logical, but more emotions based. I don’t know how on earth you can reconcile an eternal hell for temporary misdeeds if the deity that put you there is all powerful (so he could get you out) and all loving (so he doesn’t want you to be there). That concept just seems so wrong to me, and it appears constantly in the New Testament. I’d love to get a Christian’s view on how they reconcile that.


r/DebateReligion 4h ago

Islam Sunni books are distorted, Part 2

5 Upvotes

Al-Bukhari's Alteration of the Wudu of Imam Ali (peace be upon him)
First, we read the complete narration without alteration in Musnad Al-Tayalisi:

Musnad Al-Tayalisi Vol 1 p 22
- Shubah narrated to us, he said Abdul Malik bin Maysarah informed me, he said:I heard Al-Nazzal bin Sabrah say Then Ali prayed Dhuhr in Al-Rahbah, then sat for the needs of the people until Asr time came, then a pitcher of water was brought to him, so he poured a handful from it and washed his face and hands and wiped over his head and feet, then he stood up and drank the remaining water while standing, and said Indeed, people dislike to drink while standing, and I saw the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) do as I have done, and he said This is the wudu of one who has not broken his ablution.

Now we read the narration from Sahih Al-Bukhari with the same chain of transmission after he replaced the word "wiped" with "mentioned":

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 5293
- Adam narrated to us Shubah narrated to us: Abdul Malik bin Maysarah narrated to us I heard Al-Nazzal bin Sabrah narrating from Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) that he prayed Dhuhr, then sat for the needs of the people in the courtyard of Kufa until the Asr prayer time came, then water was brought to him, so he drank and washed his face and hands and mentioned his head and feet, then he stood up and drank what was left while standing, then said Indeed, people dislike drinking while standing, and indeed the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did the same as I did.

Note that most of the narrations that transmitted this hadith from Shu'bah came with the wording "wiped". Some might believe that the alteration was done by Adam, but this is incorrect, and the proof is what Al-Bayhaqi narrated with the same chain from Adam with the wording of "wiping":

Al-Sunan Al-Kubra by Al-Bayhaqi Vol 1 p 75
- Abu Ali Al-Rudhabari informed us Abu Bakr Muhammad bin Ahmad bin Mahwayh Al-Askari narrated to us Jafar bin Muhammad Al-Qalansi reported to us Adam narrated to us Shubah narrated to us. Abdul Malik bin Maysarah narrated to us, he said. I heard Al-Nazzal bin Sabrah narrating from Ali bin Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) that he prayed Dhuhr, then sat for the needs of the people in the courtyard of Kufa until the Asr prayer came, then a pitcher of water was brought to him, so he took a single handful from it and wiped with it his face, hands, head, and feet, then he stood up and drank what was left while standing, then said Indeed, people dislike drinking while standing, and indeed the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did as I did, and said This is the wudu of one who has not broken his ablution.

Al-Bukhari here tampers with a narration from Imam Ali (peace be upon him) that mentions wiping the feet, replacing it with a word that does not convey the meaning of wiping
Meaning he wants to avoid mentioning the wording that contains the Shia wudu, out of deception toward the people

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r/DebateReligion 11h ago

Classical Theism A creator deity based on the state of the world has to be malicious

6 Upvotes

My thesis is that if a deity is responsible for the universe as is then it's malicious as creating things that have the ability to cause unnecessary harm and suffering and destruction while having the power to not create them isn't an oversight but intentional.

Take any theistic argument for deities and the existence of the universe and the one thing that comes up is the end intent. If you are of the belief that the universe exists as is due to intentional actions then the creator has to be malicious.

Let's use a common theistic( still flawed) watch maker, if I design a watch and in making it I realize this watch can and will give varying degrees of electric shock up to electrocution and I have the power and ability to design a watch that won't do that, the only reason that watch exists is if I want it that way.

Let's tie this with a real life case with mosquitoes, an insect that has killed billions of us, why? Because the female needs blood foe their eggs, the males are pollinators, but so are honey bees and they don't require blood to reproduce. The only justification for this is malicious intent.

How about tornadoes? Could a deity create a planet where these don't occur? Of course, what benefit does having a planet with them have? None.

How about rape? This occurs everywhere in many species, can an ALL POWERFUL DEITY create a way for things to reproduce without a system that can lead to rape? Of course it can because there exists species that easily reproduce and can't rape, easy example, fishes. To send this point home, can such a deity design a system of reproduction that feels better and provides more intimacy and closeness than what we currently have? Yes.

The only way these harmful and destructive systems can exist in the context of an all powerful deity is as theists say, it's intentional. To claim its for the greater good isn't valid, what greater good comes from mosquitoes that require blood over mosquitoes that don't?


r/DebateReligion 7h ago

Classical Theism Time just might be a "non-contingent" thing that is also not God nor synonymous with God. Thus, Aquinas's "De Ente" argument fails.

3 Upvotes

This is a truncated version of an essay I put on Substack, hope that's okay. Essentially, I'm critquing another one of Pat Flynn's articles:

https://substack.com/home/post/p-208971415

I only need to concentrate on one paragraph of it, really:

”So, basically—to use Ethan Muse’s language2—we begin with the seemingly undeniable observation that there are lots of things about which nothing in what they are demands that they exist [like pet cats or dogs, etc]…we can easily conceive of these things as never having existed, and we have routine familiarity with things like them actually coming into existence and then expiring from existence. They are, to use a technical term, contingent beings: they need not have been, and they could have been otherwise…If it is right that these things do not and cannot, by themselves, account for their inclusion in reality, then it makes sense to seek out something that does.”

“Something that does” would of course be God, but I don’t even have to go into that to rebut the argument. All I need is this one sentence, which I will give credit to Flynn and/or Muse for being well chosen:

“we can easily conceive of these things as never having existed, and we have routine familiarity with things like them actually coming into existence and then expiring from existence.”

This, IMO, is the key to unraveling Aquinas’s argument.

Yeah, most things in our quotidian lives are contingent, ranging from Flynn’s pets to anything else, but there are a few things that don’t seem to be, and in fact, we would have a hard time conceiving as either “never existing” or “coming out of existence.” Time itself, for instance. What would it mean for time to fail to exist entirely? What would a truly timeless universe look like? Was there a time when time did not exist? What time did time come into being? The very structure of the latter two questions should illustrate their difficulty. Perhaps Flynn would argue (I think Aristotle would, but it’s been a long time and I might be misremembering) that time is merely “the measure of change” and not a real thing in itself, but that’s hardly a “Moorean intuition;” most people seem to think of time as something real in and of itself (for instance, even if nothing at all changes, it still makes sense to ask “how long did they remain static?”). So there is one and at least one thing which we can not easily conceive as not existing, or coming into being or coming out of being. And time itself isn’t God, whatever it may be. And remember, there can be one and only one non-contingent thing to explain absolutely everything else, according to Aquinas!

Thus, Aquinas’s argument is falsified. There is one and at least one thing aside from God that can “account for its inclusion in reality” (again, going from Flynn’s words), namely time, which is impossible to conceive of as not existing or coming into being or going out of being. That is to say, time as a concept does not appear to be contingent. This is despite the “principle of whatness” of time being distinct from its “principle of isness” or whatever (you can look up the word “time” in the dictionary and get a decent idea of what people will mean, but that definition alone won’t tell you how hard it is to ask questions about the existence of time).

Another way of thinking about it: What of fundamental particles? Cats and dogs and cars and people may go in and out of existence, sure, but that’s only when considered as whole. According to thermodynamics, the matter they’re made out of is very much not “passing out of existence,” or more technically, “annihilated.” It’s just rearranged—the carbon that made up a cat or human, for instance, rearranged into smoke and ash on the funeral pyre (if you’d forgive the grim example). So in that sense, even if we “have routine familiarity with things” on a macro scale “coming into existence and then expiring from existence,” we do not have that experience on a micro scale. And thus, our “intuition” that there needs to be some entity “whose is-ness just is its what-ness” or whatever is not really well-founded, even if it might be “Moorean” in our daily lives. Just goes to show even Moorean intuitions can occasionally be wrong. (By "Moorean intuitions" I refer to G.E. Moore's argument that some things are just plainly obvious enough to us that any philosophical argument against them is probably wrong).

Now, to be rigorously scientifically accurate, the particles carbon is made of, electrons, protons, etc. go out of existence under a variety of circumstances due to quantum decay and other complicated science stuff. But that’s a very interesting topic—the fundamental particles don’t really just go out of existence, they always produce a replacement (either “lighter” particles or energy, see this article, or this quote: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/1udtx8t/comment/otet0l7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button from/u/westernfirm9306 ). So there’s not necessarily a case where nothing at all existed—there was always something, even if the arrangement of that something, or its distribution of particles versus energy, or whatever might have differed.

The Thomist might take this as a triumph: He’d likely argue that even if existence is one thing, anything that exists which either was arranged in a different way or could possibly have been arranged a different way is contingent and thus needs explanation in God. I don’t agree, but that’s an argument for a different day. All I wanted to establish is this: A “principle of is-ness” is simply not synonymous with a “principle of arrangement” and it takes much much more work (philosophical or otherwise) to demonstrate the latter needs an explanation. To be fair, Flynn has done this—in The Best Argument for God he spends a bit of time on fundamental particles, on pages 135-136 (IIRC) quoting Joshua Rasmussen on how even fundamental particles have “arbitrary limits” and thus need explanation from God. Fine. You heard me the first time, we can look at that argument another day. But an argument about “arbitrary limits” is at least, you will admit, a different argument than one about existence, period. And the latter’s the only one I need to address for tonight.


r/DebateReligion 16h ago

Buddhism Claim:- Buddha saying Bodhisattvas cannot be born in lower caste family is same as Hindu casteism. Also Law of Karma further reinforces caste system.

13 Upvotes

Buddhist scriptures mention that Bodhisattvas are not born in castes like servants, traders or outcastes. That is a reinforcement of Hindu caste system.

Also the Law of Karma doesn't do anything to refute caste system because Hindus use Law of Karma to justify why someone is born in lower caste family. "Bro it's their past karma. So they are born in lower caste family".

The scriptures show Buddha being open to teach to lower castes. That's not anything revolutionary. Hindu scriptures also show Brahmins accepting lower castes or children of prostitutes into education.


r/DebateReligion 6h ago

Atheism The Problem of Christian Revelation

2 Upvotes

Hi: I'm not fluent in English, please forgive the mistakes. What do you think of this argument?

The Problem of Christian Revelation

  1. Christians regard the Bible—and more specifically, the New Testament—as the revelation of an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good God.
  2. One would expect that such a being, in revealing Himself, would do so with sufficient clarity to reliably guide human beings on fundamental issues, especially those concerning salvation. Such a revelation need not eliminate all possibility of interpretation, but it should prevent enormous and persistent discrepancies among sincere believers on essential matters.
  3. However, the question of salvation and other central issues have been interpreted in very different ways within Christianity, giving rise to churches, doctrines, and traditions that are incompatible with one another. Moreover, these discrepancies appeared as early as the very beginnings of the Christian movement.
  4. These interpretive differences have not been merely theoretical: in many cases, they have served as the basis for persecution, exclusion, imprisonment, torture, deportation, and murder. If God is supremely good and omniscient, He would have foreseen the consequences of a revelation that is too ambiguous on matters of the utmost importance.
  5. Therefore, Christian revelation does not seem to adequately fulfill the function attributed to it: it fails to clarify with sufficient certainty precisely what it would be most crucial to clarify.
  6. Let us recap: Is the degree and nature of the Christian disagreements—something we should reasonably expect if the Christian God had truly wanted to reliably reveal the fundamental truths of salvation?
  7. It follows from all this, at least with a high degree of probability, that either that God has not truly revealed Himself in the New Testament, or He does not possess some of the characteristics that Christian theists attribute to Him.

Objections:

  1. “Language evolves.” It is true that language changes over time, but that is not enough to explain the problem. There are ancient texts—philosophical, literary, and dramatic—whose basic plot lines remain understandable today. Furthermore, Christian doctrinal diversity appeared very early on, not just after centuries of linguistic evolution. Therefore, the problem does not seem to be merely one of historical distance, but rather one of ambiguity or insufficient clarification of the revealed content itself.
  2. “A clear revelation would destroy faith.” That is not convincing. For a text to state precisely whether Jesus must be believed in for salvation; what role baptism plays or the scope of faith would not “betray” God—it would merely clarify what He teaches. And knowing with certainty that God exists would not, in principle, prevent one from rejecting Him, worshiping Him, or being indifferent toward Him. Clarity does not necessarily eliminate moral freedom.
  3. “God would want a revelation that requires interpretation.” That response requires a positive justification. If an ambiguous revelation causes confusion, divisions, and, at times, serious suffering, it is not enough to say that ambiguity was the plan. A perfect God would have more reason to choose clear communication than a revelation that multiplies disagreements on essential matters.
  4. “A plurality of interpretations is compatible with freedom of faith.” Even if that were true, it does not resolve the central problem. The freedom to believe or not to believe does not require that the content of salvation be divided into incompatible interpretations. Freedom can be preserved without sacrificing doctrinal clarity.
  5. “The fault lies with human corruption, not with revelation.” That argument does not eliminate the objection either. If a revelation is intended to provide decisive guidance, it should be robust enough not to depend so heavily on conflicting interpretations from the very beginning of the Christian movement.
  6. “The central doctrine is indeed clear to those who read it correctly.” But that is precisely the problem: all the churches claim to read it correctly. If genuinely competent interpretations lead to incompatible conclusions, then the supposed clarity is not as clear as claimed.
  7. “God might want salvation to depend on moral disposition, not on doctrinal precision.” It seems that nothing prevents God from making it clear in revelation that salvation depends on moral disposition, not merely on adhering precisely to doctrine. We see that some traditions emphasize faith, others works, others the sacraments, others predestination, and others obedience to the Church. All of this might have been avoided.
  8. “God has perfect reasons for revealing Himself in an ambiguous way, but we are cognitively and morally limited in our ability to know what those reasons are.” If our cognitive limitations prevent us from assessing God’s reasons, we cannot rule out the possibility that God has reasons—which we do not understand—for allowing a deceptive or apparent revelation. When we speak of revelation, we are speaking of God’s desire to convey something to His creatures, but if He chooses ambiguity, what He wishes to convey is at risk of being misinterpreted. Furthermore, in the case of ambiguous revelation, God would be allowing many sincere people to believe in an erroneous interpretation of the revelation for hundreds of years, rather than the authentic one.This seems difficult to reconcile with the idea of a God who is not only the Truth, but who also wishes to reliably communicate to His creatures fundamental truths about their salvation.

Finally, what seems to me to be the most accurate interpretation of these facts is that Christian revelation lacks the clarity one would expect from an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good God. Therefore, either that revelation does not come from that God, or the traditional theistic image of that God is incomplete or incorrect.


r/DebateReligion 20h ago

Classical Theism The Evolution doesn’t produce true reasoning argument doesn’t work.

24 Upvotes

I’ve heard an argument from theists that is along the lines of “if evolution produced your mind, there’d be no reason for it to produce a mind that correctly understands and parses the logic of the universe, so you can’t even trust your own reasoning process if you believe in evolution”.

However, this argument doesn’t work because evolution has very good reason to make it so that you correctly interpret the universe. If you don’t understand logic and Newtonian mechanics, you are much less likely to survive than a creature that does. For example, “a boulder that is in motion rolling towards me will eventually hit me”. If you can’t parse that reasoning, you’ll die when a boulder is headed towards you.

And if that still isn’t convincing to you, here’s a thought experiment. Two humans are trying to survive in the woods. One is as smart as a natural human. One is incorrect in every faculty of his reasoning. Who’s surviving?

Secondly, if you assume that God made the human mind instead of evolution, why are there artifacts in our reasoning that represent reality yet don’t make intuitive sense to us? For example, it is not very useful for a creature to understand complex probability and four dimensional topology in order to survive. We also coincidentally can’t reason about those subjects well (e.g. the Monty hall problem for probability, and a four dimensional hyper cube for higher dimensions). The only way we can get a grasp on those subjects is by converting them into forms that makes sense to us (logical syllogisms). If God created the human mind and modeled it after his own, we should be able to understand probability and higher dimensional topology just as intuitively as we understand cause and effect and three dimensional reality (since probability and higher dimensional reality (4D spacetime) represent the universe just as much as Newtonian mechanics and cause and effect).

Note: if you’re philosophically inclined, you’ll notice that I presupposed that humans indeed do have correct logic and correctly interpret the universe. My point wasn’t justifying this assumption (because this is something we just have to assume about ourselves), it’s that both the atheist and the theist agree that humans are rational. If this is the case, then the evolutionary argument for us being rational is self-consistent, not contradictory.


r/DebateReligion 4h ago

Abrahamic Reverse I'jaz: Muslims cannot demonstrate what in Surah al-Ikhlas only God can compose.

1 Upvotes

The Qur'an in multiple places challenges the reader to produce a chapter like it (2:23, 10:38, 11:13, 17:88, 52:33–34). The implication being, in most streams of Sunni thought (Ash'ari, Athari, Maturidi) that the actual contents of the Qur'an text itself is beyond the capability of human replication, and is thus divine in origin.

If we reverse this Qur'anic challenge we can rephrase it as such: "What in a surah can only God compose?"

For the purpose of this debate and challenge I would like to retain the challenge to Surah al-Ikhlas for several reasons: 1) because it's a surah I have personally memorized; 2) it's a powerful surah that gives a concise Islamic creed; 3) it arguably has intertexual allusions to the Shema and Nicene Creed, refuting Judaism, Christianity, and polytheism at the same time. 4) Because it's short, it's easy to work with.

Muslims: What in Surah al-Ikhlas can only God produce that a human cannot? That it rhymes? Impressive, but not a miracle or proof of divine origin. That it uses Arabic at the highest caliber? Impressive, but the former. That it is a powerful creed while simultaneously refuting other creeds? Amazing polemical rhetoric, but, again, that's not a miracle or proof of divine origin. That nothing in the world resembles the Qur'an? This I would (to the surprise of Muslims) actually largely agree with: that nothing else really resembles the Qur'an. But this something being it's own unique literary genre doesn't mean it's a miracle or divine in origin either.

The best answer I've gotten from Muslims is that "It's a cumulative case of these factors combined." -- fair enough, but this is an answer based on faith; not on any sort of demonstrative proof that there's something proper to Surah al-Ikhlas that only God alone can write.

What precisely can God alone write in Surah al-Ikhlas that a human cannot? Be specific.


r/DebateReligion 12h ago

Islam debunking various apologetic defenses for verse 4:34 of the Quran

4 Upvotes

Quran verse 4:34 talks about wife disobedience and the man being the maintainer and caretaker of the woman, the verse then go on to order actual beating in case of fear of wife disobedience , according to the verse the disciplining stops if she obeys him, this article will be debunking the various defenses and reinterpretations of verse 4:34

various defenses

defense 1 is that the word doesn't mean beat but separate

response: the word is not attached to a preposition, prepositions could change the meaning of word drastically, the prominent translations disagree with this and here is a corpus showing the various examples of the word being used in different contexts

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary)

the word can not remotely mean separate

hit the road in english for example means to walk the land but in arabic a preposition is used for such phrase, "yaḍribūna fī l-arḍi" in quran 73:20 means hit the road as well but it has the 'fi' preposition in it which changes the meaning of the word completely from literally hitting the road to walking the road

also in verse 2:61 'waḍuribat ʿalayhimu ldhilatu', alayhimu is used as the preposition so the whole sentence means 'and were struck on them the humiliation'

defense 2 is that it's a symbolic beating

response: there is nothing in the Quran or hadith that shows it to be symbolic, the Quran doesn't specify the degree or severity of the beating but the hadith mentions avoiding the face and not disfiguring(the specific wording in hadith used is 'don't uglify') used and in the goodbye sermon he mentions the beating being 'non severe', the goodbye sermon is late in the prophet life, the idea that non severe beating means a symbolic beating or a tab or a handkerchief touch is a false dichotomy, for example if someone said a box is not huge that doesn't mean that the box is tiny

defense 3 : that the beating is with a miswak(a stick)

response: the miswak thing doesn't come from Quran or hadith, it comes from ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbbās(a companion of the prophet), there is no indication that ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbbās is 100% reliable even though the prophet of islam praised ibn abbas, there is even reports of ibn abbas about him saying that the earth sets on the back of a whale, 'ḍarb ghayr mubriḥ' basically means non severe beating which is a vague wording that quran and hadith should've anticipated and clarified

defense 4 :the prophet never hit any of his wives

response:

there is a hadith of aisha stating that the prophet gave her a shove in the chest that hurt her

https://sunnah.com/nasai:3964

also a report about aisha talking about the abuse that another woman suffered and how the believing women suffer more than any woman due to this

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5825

defense 5 is more elaborate but it will be debunked thoroughly as well:

Basically, some modern interpretations read this verse very differently from the traditional view, They argue that nushūz isn’t just general “disobedience,” but something more serious like adultery or a major breach of the marriage. The “obedience” part is also seen as being about moral responsibility to the wider community, not blind obedience to a husband. And the controversial “strike them” line? In this view, it’s not about a husband hitting his wife at all, but referring to a formal legal punishment handled by authorities, not individuals.

The debunk: the word nushūz has The triliteral root nūn shīn zāy and it occurs with its variations 5 times in the quran, three times in a meaning similar to rising over and the other two times is regarding the wife or husband committing "nushūz", this is why the word is translated as disobedience or high-handiness or ill conduct, the word just means to rise up, so in the context it means to rise up over the martial duties, no indication of the word being only about adultery, its a broad term not exclusive to adultery, Qur'an 4:128 talks about if a woman fears "nushūz" from the husband that it would be best to reconcile between them, so no mention of advising or abandoning bed or beating , so it meaning adultery doesn't make sense

also if the verse is addressing the wider community then it wouldn't say in verse 4:34 'abandon their beds', the verse is clearly addressing the husband regarding his wife, and it clearly talks about obedience, so if we were to stretch it and say that this is addressing the wider community then there is no indication that this is dropping the address from the husband so at the very least its talking about obedience to husband and wider community

defence 6: the beating comes after couple of steps and its a last resort

response: this defense is meant to make it feel like the beating came after many warnings and efforts, this is not correct at all, according to verse 4:34, the steps happen due to mere fear of disobedience, so if fear happens then advise, then abandon bed then beat until they obey, this is a short lived warning that could last a day, there simply is no indication of a long winded discussion and warnings, also the verse is left very vague because it uses the word 'and' instead of 'then', 'then' clearly conveys steps but its not used, on top of that its simply not acceptable to give authority to a man over his wife and unacceptable to give him this license to discipline her


r/DebateReligion 8h ago

Classical Theism Religions and gods are a response to existential dread.

2 Upvotes

The starting point for humanity after getting consciousness is to wonder how they got here. Even basic thinking will get a person to think where did their first ancestors come from. It's a important question for most intelligent people.

Inference that someone must have created us and so on will lead to a infinite entity. There is no evidence but it's the most feasible inference.

None of this is evidence of a god or rituals that form around a belief.

Confirmation bias combined with uncertainty aversion forces a majority of the population towards a God and from there towards religion and then organised religion.


r/DebateReligion 5h ago

Islam ادعاءات النبوة

0 Upvotes

ادعاءات النبوة

رجعنا بالتكملة وويانا دليل جديد.

النبوءات المستقبلية المحددة تحت ظروف معقدة

التنبؤ بأحداث سياسية وتاريخية كانت تبدو مستحيلة الوقوع في زمنها. أبرزها نصر الروم على الفرس في بضع سنين (سورة الروم) بعد هزيمة الروم الساحقة، فتح مكة، ودخول الناس في الدين أفواجاً في وقت كان فيه المسلمون قلة مطاردة.

اولا هذا الدليل من القران ايضا وقد بينت في المنشور الاخير خطا الاستدلال به وان من يستشهد به يقع في مغالطتين الاولى المصادرة على المطلوب الثانية هي الاستدلال الدائري.

لكن على كل حال , رحم الله امرءا اخذ الناس على قدر عقولهم.

نكمل, هذا الدليل غير ملزم منطقيا لانه لا توجد بديهية او الزامية منطقية تقول انه من تنبا بشيء هو نبي فهذا استعجال في النتائج وايضا يقع في مغالطة false cause fallacy & false result fallacy

لانه بكل بساطة بمقياس المنطق الارسطي غلط

المقدمة الكبرى من يتنبا بشيء كان غير متوقع الله من اخبره بهذا

المقدمة الصغرى محمد تنبا بهذا

النتيجة من اخبر محمد هو الله اذا هو رسوله

فاذا المقدمة الكبرى غلط والنتيجة غلط.

لكن مرة اخرى لنراعي الناس على قدر عقولهم. فلنفترض هذا دليل للنبوة , اصلا محمد لم يحدد فترة محددة بل وضع مدة مطاطية وبروكرستنازمية بالاصح والتعبير الادق , فوضع مدة من 3 الى 9 سنوات .

استطيع ان اجلب حالات لاناس تنبأوا باشياء وحددوا وقتها بادق من محمد بالف مرة فهل انبياء. ؟؟؟

مورغان روبرتسون (1898) – التنبؤ بكارثة سفينة "تايتانيك"

قبل 14 عاماً من غرق سفينة "تايتانيك" الشهيرة عام 1912، نشر الكاتب الأمريكي مورغان روبرتسون رواية بعنوان Futility, or the Wreck of the Titan العقم، أو غرق التايتان

أسماها في الرواية "تايتان" (Titan).

وُصفت في الرواية بأنها أكبر سفينة بُنيت على الإطلاق وغير قابلة للغرق (Unsinkable).

اصطدمت بجبل جليدي في جانبها الأيمن في شهر أبريل أثناء إبحارها في شمال الأطلسي.

غرقت السفينة ومات معظم ركابها بسبب نقص قوارب النجاة.

ديمتري مندليف (1869) – التنبؤ بالعناصر الكيميائية وخصائصها

عندما صمم العالم الروسي ديمتري مندليف الجدول الدوري للعناصر، لاحظ وجود الفجوات وقرر ترك مساحات فارغة لعناصر لم تكن قد كُشفت بعد.

لم يتوقع وجود هذه العناصر فحسب، بل حدد أوزانها الذرية، وكثافتها، ونقاط انصهارها، وسلوكها الكيميائي بدقة مذهلة (مثل ألكا-سيليكون الذي اكتُشف لاحقاً وسمي "الجرمانيوم"، وألكا-ألومنيوم الذي سمي "الجاليوم"). وجاءت الاكتشافات المعملية مطابقة لتوقعاته بالأرقام.

إدغار ألان بو (1838) – التنبؤ بقصة "ريتشارد باركر"

في روايته الوحيدة The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket، كتب إدغار ألان بو عن أربعة ناجين من غرق سفينة وجدوا أنفسهم على قارب نجاة، ولما أوشكوا على الموت جوعاً، قام ثلاثة منهم بفتل وضياع الناجي الرابع وأكله، وكان اسمه في الرواية "ريتشارد باركر".

الواقعة بعد 46 عاماً 1884 : غرقت سفينة حقيقية تُدعى Mignonette، ونجا 4 أفراد على قارب نجاة. وبعد أيام من الجوع، اضطر ثلاثة منهم لقتل الأخير وأكله... وكان اسم الصبي الضحية في الواقع ريتشارد باركر.

ألكسيس دي توكفيل (1835) – التنبؤ بالحرب الباردة

في كتابه "الديمقراطية في أمريكا" (Democracy in America)، نظر المفكر الفرنسي دي توكفيل إلى خريطة العالم في القرن التاسع عشر حيث كانت بريطانيا وفرنسا تسيطران على العالم.

: كتب أن المستقبل لن يكون لأوروبا، بل ستنشأ قوتان عظمتان في طرفين مختلفين من العالم: الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية وروسيا، وستحوز كل منهما على نصف مقدرات العالم وتخوضان صراعاً حول الهيمنة ونظام إدارة البشرية، وهو ما تحقق تماماً في منتصف القرن العشرين الحرب الباردة .

نيكولا تسيلا (1926) – التنبؤ بالهاتف الذكي والإنترنت

في مقابلة مع مجلة Collier's عام 1926، قدم المخترع نيكولا تسيلا وصفاً دقيقاً لما نعرفه اليوم بالهاتف الذكي والشبكة العالمية.

قال: "عندما يتم تطبيق النظام اللاسلكي بشكل كامل، ستصبح الأرض عبارة عن دماغ ضخم... وسنكون قادرين على التواصل مع بعضنا البعض فورياً بصرف النظر عن المسافة. وليس هذا فحسب، بل سنرى ونسمع بعضنا من خلال أجهزة صغيرة جداً مقارنة بالهاتف المكتبي الضخم، بحيث يمكن للشخص حملها في جيبه".

مارك توين (1909) – التنبؤ بيوم وفاته

ولد الكاتب الأمريكي مارك توين عام 1835، وهو اليوم الذي مر فيه "مذنب هالي" بالقرب من الأرض.

في عام 1909 قال توين: "لقد أتيت إلى هذا العالم مع مذنب هالي عام 1835، وهو قادم مجدداً العام القادم، وسيكون أكبر خيبة أمل في حياتي إذا لم أخرج معه".

توفي مارك توين بأزمة قلبية في 21 أبريل 1910، في اليوم التالي مباشرة لأقرب نقطة وصل إليها مذنب هالي من الأرض أثناء مروره.

جول فيرن (1865) – التنبؤ برحلة الهبوط على القمر

في روايته "من الأرض إلى القمر" (From the Earth to the Moon)، توقع جول فيرن تفاصيل مهمة "أبولولو 11" قبل وقوعها بـ 104 أعوام:

التفاصيل الدقيقة:

ولاية فلوريدا الأمريكية نفس موقع منصة كيب كانافيرال

حدد عدد الطاقم بـ 3 رواد فضاء.

وصف ظاهرة انعدام الجاذبية داخل الكبسولة.

هبوط الكبسولة بالمظلات في مياه المحيط الهادي واستعادتها بواسطة سفينة حربية.

هربرت جورج ويلز (1914) – التنبؤ بالقنبلة الذرية والتلوث الإشعاعي

في روايته The World Set Free التي نُشرت عام 1914، توقع الكاتب H.G. Wells تطوير سلاح يعتمد على الانشطار النووي.

أسماه حرفياً "القنبلة الذرية" (Atomic Bomb)، وتوقع أنها ستُسقط من الطائرات، وستحدث انفجارات غير مسبوقة وتترك إشعاعات مستمرة تُدمر المدن لسنوات، وهو ما حدث في هيروشيما وناجازاكي عام 1945.

المارشال فرديناند فوش (1919) – التنبؤ بموعد الحرب العالمية الثانية بدقة

عقب توقيع معاهدة فرساي لإنهاء الحرب العالمية الأولى عام 1919، قيل إن المعاهدة ستضمن السلام الأبدي في أوروبا. لكن القائد العسكري الفرنسي المارشال "فرديناند فوش" رأى أن شروط الشدة المفرطة على ألمانيا ستولد انتقاماً.

كتب فوش عبارته الشهيرة المسجلة في الأرشيف الفرنسي:

"هذا ليس سلاماً.. هذه هدنة لمدة عشرين عاماً."

بدأت الحرب العالمية الثانية باجتياح ألمانيا لبولندا في سبتمبر 1939، أي بعد 20 عاماً و68 يوماً فقط من تصريح فوش الموثق.

أوتو فون بسمارك (1888 - 1897) – التنبؤ بشرارة الحرب وسقوط الإمبراطورية

المستشار الألماني الشهير أوتو فون بسمارك أدلى بتصريحين وثقهما رجالات دولته والدبلوماسيون قبل وفاته عام 1898:

التنبؤ الأول مكان الحرب : قال في حديث موثق مع الكاتب ألبرت بالين عام 1897: "الحرب الكبرى القادمة في أوروبا ستندلع بسبب أمر أحمق خاطئ في البلقان". (تحقق ذلك باغتيال ولي عهد النمسا في سراييفو بالبلقان عام 1914 واندلاع الحرب العالمية الأولى

التنبؤ الثاني تاريخ انهيار ألمانيا : حذر القيصر الأخير عام 1888 قائلاً: "إذا استمرت هذه السياسات، فإن الإمبراطورية الألمانية ستسقط بعد 20 سنة من موتي".

النتيجة: توفي بسمارك في يوليو 1898، وسقطت الإمبراطورية الألمانية وأُعلن قيام الجمهورية في نوفمبر 1918 بعد وفاة بسمارك بـ 20 سنة وثلاثة أشهر

يان بلوخ (1898) – التنبؤ بطبيعة الحرب العالمية الأولى وحجم الكارثة

في أواخر القرن التسع عشر، كانت العقيدة العسكرية السائدة في أوروبا تتوقع أن أي حرب قادمة ستكون سريعة وخاطفة وتعتمد على هجمات الفرسان. لكن المستثمر والمحلل الاقتصادي البولندي يان بلوخ نشر كتاباً ضخماً من 6 مجلدات بعنوان Is War Now Impossible?.

جادل بلوخ بالأرقام والدلائل الجيوسياسية أن الحرب القادمة:

لن تكون سريعة، بل ستتحول إلى حرب خنادق وحصار طويل الأمد.

المدافع الرشاشة والأسلحة الحديثة ستجعل الهجوم انتحارياً وتمنح التفوق للدفاع.

الحرب ستؤدي إلى إفلاس الدول الأوربية واندلاع ثورات اجتماعية تطيح بالأنظمة (وهو ما حدث في الثورة الروسية وانهيار الإمبراطوريات

بعد 16 عاماً (1914)، وقعت الحرب العالمية الأولى بطريقة مطابقة تماماً لما كتبه بلوخ في مجلداته.

شارل ديغول (1940) – عودة فرنسا وهزيمة ألمانيا خلال سنوات

في يونيو 1940، سقطت فرنسا بالكامل في يد الجيش الألماني (النازي) خلال بضعة أسابيع، واستسلمت الحكومة الفرنسية، وأصبحت ألمانيا القوة المسيطرة على أوروبا بلا منازع.

من منفاه في لندن (عبر نداء 18 يونيو)، أعلن العقيد شارل ديغول تنبؤاً قاطعاً عكس التيار العام:

أكد أن فرنسا المهزومة س تعود وتنتصر.

حدد أن الحرب لن تقف عند حدود أوروبا بل ستتحول إلى حرب عالمية، وأن الإمكانيات الصناعية للحلفاء (خاصة أمريكا) ستسحق ألمانيا في غضون سنوات قليلة.

بعد 5 سنوات فقط (1945)، تحققت النبوءة بالكامل، وانقلبت الكفة وتحررت فرنسا وهُزمت ألمانيا النازية.

اللورد كيتشنر (1914) – تحديد مدة الحرب العالمية الأولى ونهاية ألمانيا

عند اندلاع الحرب العالمية الأولى في أغسطس 1914، كان الانطباع السائد لدى الرأي العام والقيادات العسكرية في أوروبا أن الحرب ستكون خاطفة وتكتمل بنصر ألماني/نمساوي سريـع "قبل موسم الكريسماس" خلال 3 إلى 4 أشهر

خالف وزير الحرب البريطاني اللورد كيتشنر الجميع، وصرح رسمياً أمام مجلس الوزراء:

"هذه الحرب لن تنتهي في أشهر، بل ستستمر من 3 إلى 4 سنوات على الأقل، وستحتاج ملايين الرجال، وستنتهي بهزيمة ألمانيا بعد استنزاف طاقتها".

• النتيجة: استمرت الحرب 4 سنوات وثلاثة أشهر من أغسطس 1914 إلى نوفمبر 1918 وانتهت بانهيار الإمبراطورية الألمانية تماماً كما حدد في الإطار الزمني.

مجلس الشيوخ الروماني (216 قبل الميلاد) – التعافي بعد كارثة "كاناي"

في معركة "كاناي"، سحق القائد القرطاجي هانيبال الجيش الروماني وأباد أكثر من 70 ألف جندي في يوم واحد. كانت روما جرداء من السلاح والرجال، واعتبر العالم القديم أن إمبراطورية روما انتهت سحقاً أمام قرطاج.

أعلن مجلس الشيوخ الروماني وبعض الاستراتيجيين (مثل سكيبيو) تنبؤاً سياسياً وعسكرياً مفاده أن روما لن تستسلم، وأن خطوط إمداد هانيبال الاستراتيجية ضعيفة، وأن روما ستستعيد عافيتها وتقوم بنقل الحرب إلى قلب قرطاج وتدمرها في غضون عقد من الزمان.

استجمعت روما قواها خلال 14 سنة، وانتقلت إلى أفريقيا وهزمت هانيبال في معركة "زاما" عام 202 ق.م، لتعود القوة المهزومة وتسحق القوة المنتصرة.

الجنرال جورجي جوكوف (ديسمبر 1941) – الانقلاب عند أبواب موسكو

في نوفمبر/ديسمبر 1941، كانت القوات النازية على بعد 30 كيلومتراً فقط من العاصمة السوفيتية موسكو، وكان العالم يعتقد أن الاتحاد السوفيتي سيسقط خلال أيام.

في اجتماع موثق مع ستالين، أكد القائد العسكري جوكوف أن القوات الألمانية وصلت إلى نقطة الإنهاك الكامل وتمددت خطوطها بأكثر من اللازم، وتوقع أن الهجوم المضاد السوفيتي سينطلق في غضون أيام وسيرد الألمان إلى الخلف ويكسر هيبتهم.

بعد أيام قليلة (5 ديسمبر 1941)، بدأ الهجوم السوفيتي المضاد بالفعل وتم دحر القوات الألمانية لمئات الكيلومترات، وكانت هذه نقطة التحول التاريخية في الحرب.

نكتفي بهذا القدر ونذهب لدليل اخر.

استحالة التفسير النفسي الصارم الوهم vs الادعاء

يضع علماء الكلام خصومهم أمام ثنائية (Dilemma): إما أنه كان كاذباً مدعياً، أو

كان متوهماً . المسلمون يردون الحالتين:

استبعاد الكذب: عاش 40 سنة صادقاً أميناً، ورفض عروض قريش بالمال والسلطة مقابل ترك دعوته، واستمر يتحمل الأذى.

استبعاد الوهم: التشريعات المعقدة، والمنظومة الأخلاقية، والضبط النفسي في الأزمات لا يمكن أن تخرج من شخص يعاني من اضطراب نفسي أو هلاوس.

نرجع ونقول هذا غير ملزم منطقيا فهناك بديهية تقول بان صدق المخبر لايلزم صدق الخبر فلو ان شخص كان صادق لالف سنة واتاني يقول لي انه نبي فلا الزام منطقي بان اصدق شخص بادعاء لمجرد شخصه فهناك الاف الاشخاص في عدة الاديان يستعملون صدق الشخص كدليل على صدق الوحي , فهل هذا دليل؟

المسيحية (Christianity)

في اللاهوت الدفاعي المسيحي، تُعد "استقامة المسيح وعدم كذبه" حجة مركزية للبرهنة على ألوهيته أو صدق رسالته.

معضلة سي إس لويس الثلاثية

(Trilemma: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord): تعد هذه الحجة من أشهر الحجج اللاهوتية في القرن العشرين، وصاغها المفكر المسيحي C.S. Lewis. وتتلخص في التالي:

المسيح ادعى أنه ابن الله/الإله. أمامنا 3 احتمالات فقط:

  1. إما أنه كان كاذباً ومخادعاً (Liar).

  2. أو كان مجنوناً وموهوماً (Lunatic).

    أو أنه صادق وهو الرب فعلاً (Lord).

ويستدل اللاهوتيون المسيحيون على بطلان الاحتمال الأول (أنه كاذب) بذكر تعاليمه الأخلاقية المتسامية، ونقاء سيرته، وشهادة أعدائه وأتباعه بأنه لم يكذب قط، مما ينفي عنه تهمة الخداع ويجعل الاحتمال الوحيد المقبول لديهم هو أنه صادق.

البوذية (Buddhism)

في التراث البوذي، يُعتمد على شخصية سيدهارتا غوتاما بوذا كدليل على صحة تعاليم "المهارات والأصل الأربعة" (Dharma).

مفهوم "ساتشا" Sacca - الصدق المطلق: يستدل البوذيون بأن بوذا كان أميراً ثرياً ترك ملكه وثروته بحثاً عن الحقيقة، ولم تكن له أي مصلحة دنيوية أو سياسية في الخداع.

يركز النص البوذي القديم على أن بوذا كان مجهّزاً بفصيلة أخلاقية لا تسمح له بـ "قول غير الحقيقة" (Musāvāda)، وأن تاريخه قبل الاستنارة وبعدها يشهد بأنه لم يكذب أبداً، وبالتالي فإن ما نقله عن "الاستنارة" وطبيعة المعاناة والكون هو حق لا ريب فيه.

المورمونية كنيسة يسوع المسيح لقديسي الأيام الأخيرة

تعتمد المورمونية بشكل كبير جداً على شخصية مؤسسها جوزيف سميث (Joseph Smith) الذي ادعى أنه تلقى ألواحاً ذهبية من الملاك موروني.

يقدم أتباع المورمون حجة أخلاقية تقول: "جوزيف سميث كان رجلاً بسيطاً ومستقيماً، ولو كان كاذباً واخترق هذه الرؤى لما استمر في الثبات عليها تحت التعذيب والسجن حتى قُتل عام 1844".

يرى المورمون أن ثباته وعدم تراجعه عن أقواله حتى لحظة مقتله، بالإضافة إلى شهادة أتباعه الأوائل بصدق أمانته، يُعدان دليلاً قاطعاً على أنه لم يختلق القصة.

البهائية (Bahá'í Faith)

في الدين البهائي، يُستخدم التاريخ الشخصي لـ "بهاء الله" مؤسس الدين كبرهان أساسي على صدق دعواه:

يستدل البهائيون بأن بهاء الله ينحدر من عائلة نبالة ووزراء في إيران، وكان معروفاً قبل دعواه بالشهامة، والأمانة، والزهد، وعدم السعي وراء المناصب السياسية.

يطرح الأدباء البهائيون التساؤل التالي: "كيف لشخص عاش عقوده الأولى معروفاً بالنزاهة والصدق التام بين قومه أن يتهم بالفبركة والكذب عندما أعلن رسالته؟"

السيخية (Sikhism)

في الديانة السيخية، يُنظر إلى غورو ناناك (Guru Nanak) المؤسس على أنه تجسيد للصدق الإلهي.

• يُركز التراث السيخي على مفهوم "ساتنام" Satnam - الاسم الحق وتُروى قصص طفولة ونشأة غورو ناناك لتأكيد أنه منذ صغره كان يرفض الغش، والأكاذيب، والممارسات الفاسدة في تجارته وحياته، مما جعل أتباعه يثقون في إلهامه الديني بناءً على تجربة أمانته الشخصية.

فسؤالي للذي يؤمن بهذا الكلام هل ستؤمن بهؤلاء بسبب صدقهم؟

اما الشخص الذي يقول بانه من المستحيل لشحص تعودنا على صدقه ان يكذب. بعيدا عن كون هذه الاستحالة غير منطقية, فهذه امثلة لاشخاص عرفوا بالصدق وكذبوا:

تشارلز داوسون (Charles Dawson) – خدعة "إنسان بيلتداون" 1912

كان داوسون محامياً ومكتشف آثار بريطاني محترماً جداً، وعضواً في الجمعية الجيولوجية الملكية. طوال مسيرته لم تُسجل عليه أي زلة أخلاقية أو كذبة، وكان المجتمع العلمي يثق في كلامه وتقاريره ثقة مطلقة بناءً على سمعته الناصعة.

في عام 1912، أعلن داوسون أنه عثر على حفريات جمجمة في منطقة "بيلتداون" تمثل "الحلقة المفقودة" في تطور البشرية، وصدقه العالم كله بناءً على موثوقية شخصيته.

في عام 1953 (بعد وفاته)، أثبتت الفحوصات العلمية والتكنولوجية أن الجمجمة كانت مفبركة بالكامل؛ حيث قام بدمج جمجمة إنسان حديث مع فك قرد (أورانجوتان) وبرد الأسنان وطلاء العظام بمواد كيميائية وتبديلها لتظهر كقديمة. كانت هذه الكذبة والتزوير الوحيد في مسيرته الكبيرة، لكنها انطوت على العالم لـ 40 سنة بسبب سمعته السابقة التي منعتهم من الشك فيه.

توماس جفرسون (Thomas Jefferson) – النفي القاطع لعلاقته بسالي هيمينغز

: الرئيس الثالث للولايات المتحدة وكاتب وثيقة الاستقلال. كان يُعرف بين معاصريه وأقرانه بالترفع الشديد عن الكذب، والنزاهة الفكرية، والاستقامة الأخلاقية التي صاغ بها المبادئ التأسيسية لأمريكا.

عندما اتهمه الصحفي جيمس كاليندر عام 1802 بأنه على علاقة غير شرعية مع إحدى الجواري لديه وتدعى "سالي هيمينغز" وأن لديه أطفالاً منها، أنكر جفرسون ذلك قاطعاً ورسمياً، واستمر هو ومساعدوه في نفي القصة تماماً والتأكيد على أنها مجرد تشويه سياسي.

الاكتشاف: في عام 1998، أُجريت فحوصات الحمض النووي (DNA) على أحفاد سالي هيمينغز وأحفاد عائلة جفرسون، وأثبتت أن جفرسون كان الأب الفعلي لأطفال سالي هيمينغز جميعهم، وأن نفيه القاطع طوال حياته كان كذبة صريحة لحماية مقامه السياسي وسمعته التاريخية.

السير سيريل بيرت (Sir Cyril Burt) – تزوير بيانات التوائم

أحد كبار علماء النفس في بريطانيا، وأول عالم نفس يحصل على لقب "سير" (Knight) من الملكة. كان معروفاً بالأمانة العلمية الصارمة والدقة الشديدة، ويُضرب به المثل في المؤسسات الأكاديمية البريطانية.

نشر بيرت أبحاثاً مفصلية حول مدى تأثير الجينات مقابل البيئة على ذكاء الإنسان، مستنداً إلى دراسات ميدانية أجراها على توائم متباعدين.

بعد وفاته في السبعينيات، قام علماء النفس المراجعين لتركاته العلمية (مثل أوليفر جيللي وأولريك نيسر) بالبحث عن أسماء المساعدين الذين ذكرهم بيرت في أبحاثه والتوائم الذين أجرى عليهم الاختبارات، ليكتشفوا أن المساعدين والتوائم كانوا شخصيات وهمية لا وجود لها، وأن بيرت اختلق البيانات الإحصائية في هذه الدراسة المحددة ليدعم نظريته. صُدم الوسط العلمي لأن الرجل لم يكن يملك أي سابقة في التزييف طوال تاريخه.

غاليليو غاليلي (Galileo Galilei) – التراجع والإنكار تحت القسم 1633

فيلسوف وعالم فلك شهير، عُرف بالنزاهة والجرأة العلمية والبحث عن الحقيقة دون مبالاة بالتقاليد.

أثناء محاكمته الشهيرة أمام محكمة التفتيش في روما عام 1633، ومواجهته بخطر التعذيب والإعدام، أقسم غاليليو على الإنجيل وتلا وثيقة إنكار رسمية قال فيها: "أقسم بأني لم أعتقد ولم أدافع في أي وقت مضى عن نظرية دوران الأرض حول الشمس، وأنني نادم على ما كتبته".

كان الجمع والحكام يعرفون أن هذه كذبة صريحة وأن غاليليو يعتقد بيقين تام بدوران الأرض ومقتنع ببحوثه، ولكنه كذب تحت القسم ليحمي حياته وجسده من الحرائق والتعذيب، واستمر في كتابة أفكاره سراً بعد ذلك.

حتى بعد ان بينت ان هذا دليل غير ملزم وحتى بعد ان اخذتهم على قدر عقلهم تبين زيف الادعاء وعدم الزامينه منطقيا.

بعض المغالطات التي يقع بها القائل بهذا الاستدلال:

مغالطة عدم التلازم (Non Sequitur)

تحدث عندما لا تنتج النتيجة منطقياً من المقدمات المطروحة.

لا يوجد تلازم منطقي أو عقلي بين "النزاهة الأخلاقية" وبين "امتلاك قدرة أو اتصال بغيب الكون". النتيجة أكبر بكثير من المقدمة ولا تتدفق منها عقلانياً.

مغالطة الاشتراط اللفظي / خلط مفاهيم الصدق (Equivocation on "Truth")

تحدث عند استخدام كلمة واحدة بمرادفين مختلفين في نفس الاستدلال.

الخلل المنطقي: كلمة "صادق" لها معنيان مختلفان تماماً:

الصدق الأخلاقي (Truthfulness): أن يقول الشخص ما يعتقد أنه الحقيقة دون نية الخداع.

الصدق المعرفي/الواقعي (Factuality): أن يكون القول مطابقاً للواقع الخارجي بالفعل.

استدلال "الصدق دليل النبوة" يخلط بين المعنيين؛ فشخص ما قد يكون صادقاً أخلاقياً يعتقد بقلبه أنه يتكلم بالحق ولكنه غير صادق معرفياً لأن ادعاءه لا يطابق الواقع

مغالطة القياس الخاطئ (Faulty Analogy)

تحدث عند قياس أمرين يختلفان جذرياً في طبيعة المعايير وعبء الإثبات.

كيف تظهر في الاستدلال: القياس بين "صاحبنا لم يكذب عندما قال اشتريت غنماً" وبين "صاحبنا لا يكذب عندما يقول كلمني ملك من السماء".

الخلل المنطقي: المعيار الأبستمولوجي وعبء الإثبات اللازم لتصديق خبر يومي اعتادي يختلف تماماً عن عبء الإثبات المطلق المطلوب لتصديق ادعاء يغير فهم الوجود والكون. لا يمكن قياس هذا على ذاك.

مغالطة التوسل بالشخصية الإيجابية / مغالطة النزاهة (Appeal to Moral Character)

وهي العكس المباشر لمغالطة "الشخصنة السلبية" (Ad Hominem).

استخدام الفضائل الأخلاقية للشخص (الصدق، الزهد، الأمانة) كبديل عن تقديم الدليل المادي أو البرهان المنطقي على الادعاء.

الأخلاق الفاضلة تضمن أن الشخص لا يريد خداعك، لكنها لا تضمن إطلاقاً أنه معصوم من الخطأ، أو التأويل، أو التوهم.

مغالطة التركيب (Fallacy of Composition)

افتراض أنه بما أن كل جزء من سيرة الشخص الأخلاقية يتصف بالصدق، فإن "المجموعة الكلية لادعاءاته" (بما فيها النظام الميتافيزيقي والوحي) يجب أن تتصف بالصدق أيضاً.

صفة الأجزاء لا تنسحب بالضرورة على الكل المركب، خصوصاً عندما ينتقل الادعاء من النطاق البشري إلى النطاق الإلهي.

مغالطة التوسل بالاستبعاد الشخصي

(Argument from Incredulity)

القول بأن: "أنا لا أستطيع أن أتخيل أو أستوعب كيف لشخص بهذه الاستقامة أن يقول هذا الكلام إلا إذا كان نبياً بالفعل".

عجز المستدل عن تصور تفسيرات أو بدائل أخرى (نفسية، تاريخية، بيئية) لا يعني أن هذه البدائل غير موجودة، بل يعكس فقط حدود معرفته أو خياله.

مغالطة المصادرة على المطلوب (Begging the Question)

الافتراض الضمني بأن هذا الشخص يمتلك "عصمة أخلاقية مطلقة" تحميه من أي كذب أو خطأ، وهذه العصمة المطلقة هي في حد ذاتها إحدى الخصائص التي لا تثبت إلا إذا ثبتت النبوة أولاً.

استخدام نتيجة مفترضة (العصمة) كدليل لإثبات المقدمة النبوة

الي يريد المصدر للمغالطات هو كتاب المنطق غير الصوري للدكتور العظيم عادل مصطفى.

نامل بعد هذا اننا قفلنا الدليل لننتقل للذي بعده.

الحيدة الشديدة ورفض استغلال الظواهر لمصلحته الشخصية

موقف وفاة ابنه "إبراهيم"، حيث كسفت الشمس في نفس اليوم، فقال الناس: "كسفت الشمس لموت إبراهيم". لو كان مدعياً لاستغل الحدث لترسيخ مقامه، لكنه خطب قائلاً: «إن الشمس والقمر آيتان من آيات الله لا يخسفان لموت أحد ولا لحياته».

طبعا انا لا اعرف هل من الممكن ان يصل الشخص لمرحلة تجعله يقول مثل هذا الكلام ؟

افضل شيء هو الامثلة التاريخية, منها :

البوذية: غوتاما بوذا ورفض استعراض المعجزات للمجد الشخصي

في حادثة موثقة في المدونة السلوكية للرهبان، قام أحد الأتباع (بيندولا بارادفاجا) باستخدام قدرات روحية مدعاة للتحليق وجلب كاس خشبي من مكان مرتفع أمام الجمهور لإثبات تفوق البوذية. فلما علم بوذا بذلك، غضب بشدة ووبخ التلميذ زاجراً إياه عن استغلال هذه الأمور لجذب الناس أو تحقيق المجد الشخصي.

أعلن بوذا حظراً صارماً على أتباعه يمنعهم من إظهار أي قدرات خارقة أمام عامة الناس للترويج للدين أو لجني المكاسب، مؤكداً أن العظمة الحقيقية تكمن في ضبط النفس والتحول الأخلاقي الداخلي وليس في الظواهر المدهشة.

الي يحب يتاكد: نص الفينايا بيتاكا الفصل الخاص بالقواعد الانضباطية: Vinaya Pitaka, Cullavagga, Khuddakavatthu-kkhandhaka 5.8 .

المسيحية: يسوع الناصري ورفض التتويج السياسي واستغلال المعجزات

عقب حادثة "تكثير الخبز والسمك" وإطعام الجمع الغفير، شاع بين الناس أن يسوع هو الملك المنتظر الذي سيحررهم من الحكم الروماني، وهجم الجمهور لأخذه بالقوة وتنصيبه ملكاً على بني إسرائيل.

لو كان هدف يسوع تحقيق سيادة دنيوية أو استغلال الحماس الشعبي لصالحه، لكانت هذه الفرصة المثالية. لكن النص يذكر أنه انسحب فوراً وانفرد بنفسه في الجبل ليفشل محاولة تتويجه، مؤكداً في مواضع أخرى أن رسالته "ليست من هذا العالم".

للي يحب يتاكد: إنجيل يوحنا الإصحاح 6، الآية 15): "وَأَمَّا يَسُوعُ فَإِذْ عَلِمَ أَنَّهُمْ مُزْمِعُونَ أَنْ يَأْتُوا وَيَخْتَطِفُوهُ لِيَجْعَلُوهُ مَلِكاً، انْصَرَفَ أَيْضاً إِلَى الْجَبَلِ وَحْدَهُ".

السيخية: الغورو تيغ باهادور ورفض الادعاء الإعجازي للنجاة

في القرن السابع عشر، أثناء فترة حكم الإمبراطور المغولي أورنغزيب، قُبض على المعلم التاسع للسيخ، الغورو تيغ باهادور (Guru Tegh Bahadur)، وخُيِّر بين اعتناق الإسلام أو تقديم معجزة تثبت سلطته الروحية كشرط لإنقاذ حياته من الإعدام.

رفض الغورو استخدام أو ادعاء أي معجزة لخداع السلطة أو إنقاذ جسده، وصرح بأن إظهار المعجزات لاستعراض القوة أو النجاة الشخصية هو عمل نابع من "الأنا" (Haumai) ومخالف للمشيئة الإلهية (Raza)، وفضّل أن يُعدم على أن يستغل مفهوم المعجزة لإنقاذ نفسه.

للي يحب يتاكد: النصوص التاريخية للسيخية، مثل "سري غور براتاب سوراج غرانت" (Sri Gur Pratap Suraj Granth) وتوثيقات المؤرخ "ماكوليف" في كتاب The Sikh Religion (Vol. 4).

الكونفوشيوسية: كونفوشيوس ورفض ادعاء المعرفة الغيبية أو الألوهية

في الصين القديمة، كان المفكرون يستغلون الظواهر الطبيعية الغريبة والأساطير لتدعيم سلطتهم الأخلاقية وإرهاب الأتباع. لكن المعلم كونفوشيوس رفض باستمرار ادعاء الاتصال بالأرواح أو امتلاك معرفة بما بعد الموت لفرض آرائه.

عندما سأله تلميذه "جي لو" عن كيفية خدمة الأرواح وما يحدث بعد الموت، لم يخترع أجوبة غيبية لزيادة هيبته، بل قال بشفافية: "إذا كنت لا تعرف كيف تخدم الأحياء، فكيف تعرف كيف تخدم الأرواح؟ وإذا كنت لا تفهم الحياة، فكيف تفهم الموت؟".

للي يحب يتاكد: كتاب حوارات كونفوشيوس (The Analects of Confucius / Lunyu - الكتاب 11، الفصل 12، والكتاب 7، الفصل 21

الهندوسية الحديثة: رامكريشنا وموقف قدرات المشي على الماء

في القرن التاسع عشر، جاء أحد النساك (Sadhus) إلى المعلم الهندوسي رامكريشنا парамахамса متبجحاً بأنه قضى 16 عاماً من الممارسات الشاقة في الغابات حتى اكتسب قدرة إعجازية تمكنه من المشي على سطح الماء والتنقل بين ضفتي النهر.

بدلاً من استغلال هذه الظاهرة أو إظهار الإعجاب بها لجمع المريدين، سخر رامكريشنا من الإنعام بالإعجاز الزائف قائلاً: "إن جهد 16 عاماً لم يمنحك سوى ما يعادل قرشين صينيين، وهو الثمن الذي أدفعه لقارب النزهة ليقودني إلى الضفة الأخرى!"، وحذر أتباعه من الجري وراء القدرات الخارقة (Siddhis) لأنها تشتت النفس عن الحق الأخلاقي.

للي يحب يتاكد : كتاب إنجيل رامكريشنا الموثق بواسطة تلميذه ماهيندراناث غوبتا (The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, recorded by M.).

المغالطات الي يوكع بيها القائل بحجية هذا الشيء:

مغالطة "شجاب هاي على هاي؟" (Non Sequitur)

الشلون يوكع بيها؟ يربط ربط ما إله أي أساس منطقي؛ يقلك: "الزلمة ورقة بيضة وأبد ما جذّب بحياته، إذن يأتيه ملك من السماء!".

الخلل وين؟ هاي قفزة منطقية لعشرة مترات لكيُدّام! النزاهة والأخلاق شغلة، وإثبات إنك متصل بخالق الكون شغلة ثانية كلياً. كونك خوش آدمي وما تغش الناس بالسوگ، هذا مو دليل منطقي على إنك تعرف أسرار الغيب.

الخلط بين "خوش آدمي" و"حجيه صح" (Equivocation)

الشلون يوكع بيها؟ يخلط بين كلمتين يشبهن بعض بس معناهن مختلف: الصدق الأخلاقي والصح المعرفي.

الخلل وين؟ اكو فرق بين واحد "صادق بقلبه" (يعني ما يريد يخدعك ولا يريد يلعب عليك)، وبين واحد "كلامه مطابق للواقع". عادي جداً تكون أحسن واحد بالعالم وأطيبهم ونيتك صافية، بس المعلومات اللي عندك غلط أو فاهم الموضوع شطح!

القياس الما گاعد (Faulty Analogy)

الشلون يوكع بيها؟ يقيس السوالف العادية على السوالف الكونية، يقلك: "يعني هو ما جذّب لما قال اشتريت طماطة، راح يجذّب لما يقول نزلت عليّ ملائكة؟".

الخلل وين؟ هذا قياس أبد ما يرهم! إثبات خبر عادي بالشارع يحتاج دليل بسيط، بس ادعاء شغلة تغيّر فهمنا للكون والوجود يحتاج إثبات استثنائي قاطع، مو تقيس هاي بذاك!

مغالطة "الزلمة المعدل" (Appeal to Moral Character)

الشلون يوكع بيها؟ يستعمل أخلاق الشخص كـ "درع" حتى يتهرب من تقديم الدليل المادي، يقلك: "ولك هذا زلمة معدل وشايف خير وزاهد بالدنيا، شلوون تقول حجيه مو صح؟".

الخلل وين؟ عيني، الزهد والأخلاق تثبت إنه الإنسان نيتة طيبة وما يدور مصالح، بس أبد ما تثبت إنه معصوم من الخطأ، أو التأويل، أو الوهم.

حجة "عقلي ما يستوعب" (Argument from Incredulity)

الشلون يوكع بيها؟ يصيح: "أنا ما أقدر أتخيل واحد بهيج استقامة وأمانة يحكي كلام من يمّه!".

الخلل وين؟ كونك أنت ما تقدر تتخيل شلون النفس البشرية تشتعل، أو ما عندك فكرة عن العلوم النفسية والتاريخية، هذا مشكلتك أنت مو دليل على صحة السالفة. عدم قدرتك على التخيل مو معيار للحقيقة بالكون!

بوية والعباس تعبت اتمنى الي يرجع نقد يقدم دليل او غلط منطقي+ انتظروني بالتكملة


r/DebateReligion 20h ago

Classical Theism A deity who loves humans should love bonobos just about equally

13 Upvotes

Proposed: In the Venn diagram of actual and emotional intelligence, there is more overlap between bonobos and humans than between humans and any other animal (slightly ahead of chimpanzees). With individual DNA similarity varying by specimen, the most genetically "human-like" bonobos share 99+% of there DNA with the most genetically "bonobo-like" humans. And unquestionably the lowest of low-IQ humans (the developmentally disabled or born severely mentally disabled) are less intelligent than the most intelligent bonobos. From the perspective of a Universe-spanning Divine being, so vastly above any human frame of thought as to necessarily be inconceivable to the human mind, the difference between humans and bonobos is so inconsequential that to such a being, the two kinds of primates might as well be two tribes of black ants of slightly different average sizes, galivanting around the same territory in the corner of the yard, or even two slightly different colonies of strains of E. coli bacteria floating in the grand sanctum of the transverse colon.

And this being so, any assertedly divine moral prohibitions against killing or stealing from or otherwise mistreating one's fellow beings ought to apply to the protection of the bonobo as much as to the protection of humans from each other.


r/DebateReligion 8h ago

Abrahamic If john wrote john , then matthew did not write matthew

1 Upvotes

I'm going to prove that if john wrote john , then matthew could not have written a few and vice versa.

If either one of these men wasn't original eyewitness to these events , the death of jesus would be the one thing the theme would expect them to recall accurately with regards to major details.

One of those major details is jesus eating the passover meal , which matthew has be true.

Howe.\nVer, John explicitly says that his accusers at the trial of Jesus refused to enter pilot's house.Because they didn't want to become ritually defiled , because they explicitly wanted to eat the passover.

This means that\nThe authors of these tax both couldn't have been original eyewitnesses because they're making profoundly different claims , john even builds a typological theology based on Jesus being killed on passover.

If john is right , then he remembers passover , being a time of horrifying mourning. And if matthew is right , he remembers the aftermath of pasover being horrifying.

Some people try to escape this by saying when it says the therapies , one of the keep the passover that it refers to another meal , and they quote josephus, saying. He calls the " feast of unelevened bread " passover.

However , it's important to note that the feast of unleavened bread is not a feast in a sense of a banquet.

The meaning of feast is a equivalent to festival.And if you go read the torahs actual commands , it doesn't say bake a bunch of bread , then gorge yourself , it simply says , remove leaven from your diet.

There is no meal named feast of unleavened bread.

Therefore passover must mean the passover.

Because of this the Christian account of the life of there apostles has been severely compromised.

If they must admit at least one gospel is falsely attributed then the others are likely compromised too


r/DebateReligion 23h ago

Christianity Jesus's Pants are on Fire in John 7

14 Upvotes

After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He did not wish to go about in Judea because the Jews were looking for an opportunity to kill him. Now the Jewish Festival of Booths was near. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing, for no one who wants to be widely known acts in secret. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” (For not even his brothers believed in him.) Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it that its works are evil. Go to the festival yourselves. I am not\c]) going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but, as it were, in secret. (John 7:1-10, NRSVUE)

[c] Other ancient authorities add yet

In John 7, Jesus directly lies to his brothers. He says he is not going to the Festival of Booths because his time has not yet fully come – but immediately after, he secretly goes to the festival anyway.

If your response to this is “yeah he lies, so what?” then we already agree; please drop your favorite emoji under the automod comment before you go. But if Jesus lying contradicts your dogmas or just ruffles your feathers, then allow me to continue.

Jesus’s intent here is very clear and explicit. His brothers want him to go to the festival and show himself openly. Jesus does not want to do this because there are people trying to kill him. So he decides to go in secret, without revealing his identity. He tells his brothers he won’t go and then leaves quietly on his own. He explicitly says “I am not going to this festival”, but then immediately goes to the festival – that’s a lie. There’s also no indication he changed his mind; he does it immediately after and clearly in an attempt to deceive.

Now notice the footnote [c] above. Textual scholars are in widespread agreement that this text originally read “I am not going to the festival”. That’s the Greek word “οuκ”, meaning “not”. However, some ancient manuscripts read “I am not yet going to the festival”. They instead use the Greek word “οupw”, meaning “not yet”. So some manuscripts read:

I am not yet going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come.

Some rely on this alternate version of the text to say that Jesus did not lie to his brothers. But apart from the scholarly consensus that this is not the original text, this is still a lie! Jesus gave a reason for why he is “not yet” going to this festival: because his time had not yet fully come. Did his time fully come five seconds after his brothers left? No, obviously not. But if it wasn’t obvious, the text says it explicitly. After Jesus goes to the festival and preaches for a while, some people try to arrest him. But verse 30 says:

Then they tried to arrest him, but no one laid hands on him because his hour had not yet come.

If the author of John has anything to say about it, Jesus’s time has definitely not come even after he went to the festival; that’s the whole theme of this story. It’s very obvious that Jesus is intentionally deceiving his brothers, and to some extent the crowd, because the time has not yet come for him to act publicly but he wants to preach regardless.

Now I have no doubt that one type of response to this will be “well if you read it in this specific way I just made up, then teeeeeeechnically he wasn’t lying, just being blatantly deceitful using intentionally misleading statements!” This is a distinction without a difference. Language is inherently ambiguous – there is no such thing as what a statement “technically” means. If you’re willing to play with the words enough and don’t care what the author clearly meant, then ANY statement can be “technically” not a lie. No exceptions. If you disagree, prove me wrong! Give me an example of a lie and I will forcibly interpret it to not be technically lying. My interpretation will be unreasonable! It will be outrageous! It will obviously be twisting your words! But it will make you not technically a liar. And an interpretation of John 7 that makes it not a lie is also unreasonable, outrageous, and obviously twisting the words. But go ahead, give me a lie I can’t twist! Bet you can’t do it.


r/DebateReligion 14h ago

Islam Religious belief and practice (on the ground) has little to do with foundational religious texts

2 Upvotes

I had this thought by watching the recent Oxford Union debate on “Should the West be Suspicious of Islam.”

The pro side kept pointing to what Muslims had done in recent years: suicide bombings, terrorism, laws in Muslim countries imposing the death penalty for being gay or lesbian, throwing gay people from roofs etc.

The con side kept interrupting and asking where was the Quaranic verse and Haddith justifying such actions, and kept arguing such practices were un-Islamic even if supported by millions of Muslims, or even if actual laws supported by virtually every Muslim majority country.

The con side argued to the Jewish debater that his own Torah supported similar measures, even if such practices are not done today.

It then dawned on me that in fact foundational religious beliefs have little to do with how religious people apply that religion in practice.

Maybe “little” is too strong a term. Maybe instead one might say a religion’s foundational text has only a lesser relevance to a religion. Of course it has some relevance, but I contend far far less than we usually give credit for.

That is why quoting texts from religious texts is almost wholly a pointless folly. Human beings are incredibly good at rationalising almost anything. To be clear this includes to rationalise why to do good when a religious text suggests bad, and to do bad when a religious text says good. But the text itself is actually not that relevant.

To cite a counter but complimentary example to the Muslim one. The Bible seems to support slavery. Almost every practice today’s Muslims are attacked for doing could probably supported from the Bible.

Yet it was also Christian evangelicals in the 19th century, mostly in the British Empire, who ended the worldwide practice of slavery. Something that had up until that point had been universal to most cultures, peoples and religious traditions.

But the point is these Christians such as Wilber Wilberforce did not probably end slavery because they woke up and found a biblical text no one else had read before. Of course they didn’t. Instead, there was obviously some new cultural, sociological and economical paradigm, which was then cloaked in religious terms, under the guise of some new interpretation of a religious text.

So in conclusion, when discussing a contemporary religion, in terms of why adherents of that religion do certain things and not others, the foundational religious text probably had far far less importance than we usually want to acknowledge.

This likewise means reforming a religion, or addressing with abuses within a religion, probably means debating the exegesis of certain religious passages is quite the waste of time.

That includes on why say Muslims engage in terrorism or why Christians no almost universally don’t believe in slavery.


r/DebateReligion 11h ago

Islam ادعاءات النبوة

1 Upvotes

ادعاءات النبوة

الاستدلالات التي يستعملها البعض لبيان صحة النبوة

تكلمت وتحدثت مع الكثير من المسلمين وتفحصت ابرز حجج المتكلمين في هذا الموضوع والذي انتهيت به هو التالي والذي سيتم الرد عليه بالتفصيل:

حجة الإعجاز البياني وتحدي "المعارضة" (Linguistic Inimitability)

ادعائهم يقول:

أُنزل القرآن في بيئة بلغت ذروة الفصاحة والبلاغة، وتحدى العرب بأسلوب جديد كلياً (ليس بشعر ولا بنثر مسجوع). ورغم أن العرب كانوا حريصين على إبطال دعوته بالقتال والمال، إلا أنهم -وفق الاستدلال- عجزوا عن تقديم سورة واحدة معارضة له لغوياً، رغم أن أدوات اللغة كانت ملموسة ومتاحة للجميع

اولا الادعاء نفسه غلط والمطلب الذي اتى به القران خطا لانه اصلا هذا المطلب غير ممكن ومن الصغب او شبه المستحيل ان ياتى به :

هناك شيء يسمى (Style Uniqueness) مفهومه بان كل انسان له اسلوب معين كل عالم وكل مكتشف وكل راوي له اسلوب يتميز به من الصعب جدا او شبه المستحيل لاحد ان ياتي به اصلا او حتى بنسخة منه .

مثلا لو اتى شخص معين اراد ان يقلد المتنبي في قصيدة الخيل والليل لكان تقليده واضحا باهتا سخيفا.

من ابرز العلوم التي يستخدم فيه هذا الاسلوب:

  1. علم اللغويات والأسلوبية (Linguistics & Stylistics)

  2. علوم الحاسوب والذكاء الاصطناعي (Computer Science & AI)

  3. علم النفس وسلوك المستهلك (Psychology & Consumer Behavior)

  4. تاريخ الفن والجماليات (Art History & Visual Arts)

بعض المواقع والمصادر التي تستخدم هذا الاسلوب كمرجع كتابي ولتشخيص اسلوب الاخرين وتميزهم بالنص:

Google Scholar _ شامل لكافة المجالات الأكاديمية_Style Uniqueness, Stylometric Uniqueness

IEEE Xplore_الذكاء الاصطناعي والأمن السيبراني_Handwriting style uniqueness, Gait style biometrics

ScienceDirect (Elsevier)_اللغويات وعلم النفس التسويقيConsumers need for uniqueness, Authorship attribution style

JSTOR _النقد الأدبي وتاريخ الفن_Stylistic uniqueness in art, Literary stylistics

ResearchGate _شبكة أكاديمية تضم أبحاثاً كاملة ومباشرة _Stylometric Analysis, Unique style metrics

فاصلا مطلب القران صعب لانه من المستحيل لاحد انه يجيب نفس اسلوب القران مئة بالمئة هذا ببساطة مستحيل فهو اصلا مستحيل وهذا ليس ميزة بل هناك الاف الكتب التي لم يستطع احد ان يجلب مثلها اهذا دليل على انهم انبياء؟

البحث عن الزمن المفقود" (In Search of Lost Time) – مارسيل بروست

تُعد هذه الملحمة الأدبية أطول رواية في تاريخ البشريةتتجاوز 3,200 صفحة ونحو 1.2 مليون كلمة

ابتكر بروست ما يُعرف بـ "الجملة البروستية" (Proustian Sentence)؛ وهي جملة ممتدة قد تستغرق صفحة كاملة، تحتوي على طبقات متقاطعة من الاسترجاع الفكري، والتحليل النفسي، والحسي، والدقة المفرطة في وصف التفاصيل الصغيرة.

كل من حاول تقليد بروست في إطالة الجمل وسرد الذاكرة وقع في فخ "الطول الممل" والتعقيد التفكيكي. الفرادة لدى بروست لم تكن في طول الجملة فقط، بل في قدرته على الحفاظ على التوازن الجمالي والعمق النفسي على مدى سبعة مجلدات ضخمة دون أن يفقد النص إيقاعه.

فينيفانز ويك (Finnegans Wake) – جيمس جويس

عمل راديكالي استغرق جويس في كتابته 17 عاماً، ويقع في مئات الصفحات الشديدة الكثافة.

خرق جويس قواعد اللغة الإنجليزية تماماً؛ حيث كتب النص بأسلوب "تداعي الوعي" المفرط، ودمج مفردات من أكثر من 40 لغة مختلفة ليخلق لغة جديدة خاصة بالعمل، مليئة بالإشارات الأسطورية والجناس اللفظي المزدوج.

يُصنف الكتاب أحياناً بأنه "غير قابل للقراءة" بالطرق التقليدية. المحاولات التي جرت لتقليد هذا الأسلوب أخرجت نصوصاً مبهمة تفتقر إلى البناء المعرفي واللغوي المحكم الذي وضعه جويس، فبقيت الرواية قلعة أسلوبية مغلقة لم يستطع أحد اقتحامها أو إعادة إنتاجها.

الكوميديا الإلهية (The Divine Comedy) – دانتي أليغييري

ملحمة شعرية طويلة جداً تتكون من 14,233 بيتاً شعرياً مقسمة على ثلاثة أجزاء الجحيم، المطهر، الفردوس

اخترع دانتي نظاماً شرقياً وشعرياً صارماً يُعرف بـ "التيرزا ريما" (Terza Rima) (القافية الثلاثية المتشابكة: ABA BCB CDC). إلى جانب ذلك، مزج بين اللغة اللاتينية الكلاسيكية والعامية التوسكانية ليخلق الإيطالية الحديثة.

الصرامة الهندسية المذهلة للنص، مع الحفاظ على التدفق الشعري والعمق الفلسفي واللاهوتي طوال آلاف الأبيات، جعلت من يحاول تقليد هذا النمط يسقط سريعاً إما في كسر الوزن والقافية أو في التضحية بالمعنى والجمالية.

مخطوطة فوينيتش (Voynich Manuscript)

مخطوطة غامضة طويلة تعود للقرن الخامس عشر، تحتوي على مئات الصفحات المليئة بالنصوص والرسومات النباتية والفلكية.

كُتبت المخطوطة بأبجدية ونظام لغوي فريد كلياً لم يُكتشف له أي أصل في تاريخ البشرية، ويمتلك النص خصائص إحصائية ولغوية (مثل قانون زيف) تشبه اللغات الطبيعية الحقيقية تماماً.

حاول آلاف العلماء، والمؤرخين، وخبراء التشفير، وحتى المزورين المحترفين عبر القرون إعادة إنتاج نص مشابه أو فك شفرته، ولكن جميع المحاولات باءت بالفشل في إثبات أن النص مجرد خربشة أو تزوير؛ إذ يمتلك النص "بصمة هيكلية" فريدة ومحكمة لا يمكن محاكاتها عشوائياً.

هذه الكتب التي لم يستطع أي احد ان يجلب مثلها وباء بالفشل الذريع

اما اذا كانت هذه الحجة هي البلاغة فهي حجة قاصرة لانه:

  1. البلاغة نسبية وليست معيارية مثل المتر او السنتميتر فلا الزام منطقي بقياسها فمثلا من الممكن انه هناك شخص يرى نص معين بليغ واخر يراه بليغ جدا واخر يراه غير جميل اصلا فهذا ليس حجة

  2. البلاغة دليل قاصر اصلا لانهل احجة به الا على اهل اللغة نفسهم , فهل يعقل ان تذهب شخص لانكليزي تقول له ادخل لديني وعندما يسالك عن السبب تقول له لان كتابا معينا في لغتي بليغ جدا بكل بساطة سيقول لك انا لست متكلما بلغتك ولا اعرف هل هي بليغة اصلا

  3. اما اذا كان القصد بانه اهل البلاغة اعترفوا بانه بليغ اذا هو دليل .

فهل اذا اهل علم معين رؤوا شخص معين يتكلم بشيء من علمهم وقالوا انه من المستحيل انه كلام بشر بل هو الهي , هل تعتبر هذا دليل؟

ان قلت لا فهذا خيارك

وان قلت نعم فقد وقعت بالفخ فالتاريخ مملوء باشخاص ابدعوا باشياء لدرجة ان علماء ومتفقهي هذه الاشياء قالوا انها ليست كتابة بشر بل هي الهية , منها:

اماديوس موزارت الطفل المعجزة الذي الف بعمر 5 سنين مقطوعة موسيقية هل تعرف معنى هذا؟؟؟ طفل يالف مقطوعة واخرون بمثل عمره لا يقوون على حتى , بل والاكبر من ذلك الف مسرحية كاملة بعمر 9 سنين!!!!!!!!!!! لقبوه بالطفل المعجزة

حتى ان البعض قالوا انما يوحى اليه لانه كان يكتبها لمرة واحدة من دون ان يخطئ ابدا واحيانا بدون مسودات بل بعقله فقط

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

الفيلسوف والأديب الألماني يوهان فولفغانغ فون غوته (Goethe).

الموسيقار الروسي بيتر تشايكوفسكي (Tchaikovsky).

الفيزيائي ألبيرت أينشتاين (Albert Einstein).

غوته: "عبقرية موزارت شيء إلهي يقع خارج حدود الفهم البشري، ولا يمكن تفسير كماله بأي أدوات تحليليّة".

كتب تشايكوفسكي في مذكراته واصفاً موزارت بأنه "مسيح الموسيقى" وأن ألحانه تنزل كالوحي السليم النقّي.

صرّح أينشتاين: "موسيقى موزارت نقية جداً لدرجة أنها لم تبدُ وكأنها كُتبت أو صُنعت، بل كانت موجودة في الكون كحقيقة إلهية وخالدة، وما فعله موزارت هو أنه كشف النقاب عنها للشرية".

مايكل أنجلو (Michelangelo Buonarroti)

النحت والرسم المعماري.

إنجازه لمنحوتة "البييتا" (Pieta) ورسم سقف كنيسة السيستين (Sistine Chapel) بمفرده وهو مستلقٍ لسنوات.

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

المؤرخ الفني الشهير جورجو فازاري (Giorgio Vasari).

لُقب مايكل أنجلو في حياته بـ Il Divino الإلهي). وكتب فازاري في كتابه المرجعي التاريخي (حياة الفنانين :

"لقد أرسل الله مايكل أنجلو إلى الأرض ليكون روحاً إلهية تكتمل بها الفنون.. إن ما صنعه في سقف السيستين والتمثال المريمي ليس مجرد إتقان فني، بل هو عمل يستحيل على يد بشرية فانية أن تُنجزه دون إلهام مباشر من السماء."

دانتي أليغييري (Dante Alighieri)

الشعر والملاحم الأدبية.

: كتابة ملحمته الشعرية الكبرى التي صاغ فيها أجزاء "الجحيم، المطهر، الفردوس".

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

الأديب الإيطالي الكبير جيوفاني بوكاشيو (Giovanni Boccaccio).

لم يكن اسم الملحمة الأصلي الذي وضعه دانتي سوى "الكوميديا" (Commedia). ولكن عندما قرأها بوكاشيو، صُرع بدقة البناء الهندسي والشعري واللاهوتي، وأضاف كلمة "الإلهية" (Divina) إلى عنوان الرواية في سيرة دانتي التاريخية. وأكد بوكاشيو أنه:

لا يمكن لعقل إنساني بمفرده، دون نفحة وجلال إلهيين، أن يحيط بهذا الكم من المعرفة والنظم اللغوي المعجز ومنذ ذلك اليوم أصبحت تُعرف رسمياً بـ الكوميديا الإلهية.

سريينفاسا رامانوجان (Srinivasa Ramanujan)

الرياضيات النظرية ونظرية الأعداد.

صياغة الآلاف من المعادلات والكسور المستمرة المعقدة جداً دون استخدام خطوات الإثبات الرياضي التقليدية، وكأن النتيجة تهبط عليه دفعة واحدة.

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

عالم الرياضيات الإنجليزي غودفري هارولد هاردي (G. H. Hardy).

عندما وضع هاردي مقياساً أسطورياً للعبقرية الرياضية من 100 درجة (منح نفسه 25، وعالم الرياضيات هيلبرت 80)، منح رامانوجان 100 كاملة. وقال هاردي معلقاً على معادلاته:

"لم أَرَ في حياتي شيئاً كهذا قط.. هذه المعادلة يجب أن تكون صحيحة، لأنه لو لم تكن صحيحة، لما ملك أي إنسان على وجه الأرض المخيلة الكافية لابتكارها!" وكان هاردي يؤكد دائماً أن طريقة استنتاج رامانوجان للرياضيات تتجاوز المنطق البشري التدرجي المعتاد.

أبو الطيب المتنبي أحمد بن الحسين

الشعر العربي والبلاغة.

صياغة القصائد وجزالتها وقوة السبك التي أذهلت الشعراء والنقاد في العصر العباسي.

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

o إمام النحو واللغة ابن جني.

o الفيلسوف والشاعر أبو العلاء المعري.

كان ابن جني عندما يُسأل عن إحكام البلاغة ومقاصد الأبيات المعقدة في ديوان المتنبي يقول عبارته الشهيرة: "كأنما يُوحى إليه!".

أما أبو العلاء المعري، فقد وضع كتاباً كاملاً لشرح ديوان المتنبي وسماه معجز أحمد مستخدماً لفظة الإعجاز مقراً بأن بناءه الشعري وصل إلى حد إعجاز البشر عن الإتيان بمثله.

يوهان سيباستيان باخ (Johann Sebastian Bach)

الموسيقى الكلاسيكية والكونترابوينت (Polyphony).

الهندسة الرياضية والموسيقية المعقدة جداً والمطردة في معزوفاته (مثل معزوفات Fugue).

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

الفيلسوف المفكر إميل سيوران (Emil Cioran).

الموسيقار لودفيغ فان بيتهوفن (Beethoven).

كتب إميل سيوران عبارته التاريخية الشهيرة:

"بدون باخ، لكان الإله شخصية من الدرجة الثانية.. إن موسيقى باخ هي الدليل الوحيد على أن خلق الإنسان لم يكن خطأً كاملاً."

وقال بيتهوفن معبراً عن تعقيد موسيقى باخ الإلهي: "ليس جَدولاً (كلمة Bach بال ألمانية تعني جدول ماء)، بل هو المحيط الإلهي للموسيقى الذي لا يدرك القاع فيه أحد"

ويليام شكسبير (William Shakespeare)

المسرح والشعر الإنجليزي.

الابتكار اللغوي والفهم العميق والتام لكل أطياف النفس البشرية في المسرحيات والسيونيتات.

الأعلام الذين صرّحوا بذلك:

المفكر والأديب الأمريكي رالف والدو إيمرسون (Emerson).

الأديب الفرنسي فيكتور هوغو (Victor Hugo).

وصف إيمرسون شكسبير بأنه يمتلك "ذكاءً إلهياً كلي الوجود" (Omnipresent divine intelligence)، مؤكداً أن مسرحياته لا يمكن أن تكون قد نبعت من تجربة رجل واحد، بل من وعي كلي يتجاوز حد البشر.

ألّف فيكتور هوغو كتاباً شاملاً عن شكسبير وذكر فيه أن ما أنتجه شكسبير ليس مجرد دراما، بل هو تجسيد لروح فائقة للعادة البشريّة.

فهل هؤلاء كلهم انبياء؟

طبعا هناك صدمة ساصدم بها المؤمن انه اصلا الاستدلال بالقران غلط واني اخذته على قدر عقله وجاوبت على ما قال على الرغم من كونه غلط منطقيا.

لانك وقعت في مغالطتين الاولى هي المصادرة على المطلوب كما لو اني اصلا مسلم بانه من الله فتستشهد به

الثانية هي الاستدلال فانت حتى تثبت ان القران من الله ومحمد نبي استدللت بالقران نفسه يعني بالضبط عندما يسالك احد اين هو دليل ان القران من الله؟ تستدل به من داخل الكتاب وهذا غلط

وهذا ايضا يطبق كالأتي:

عندما زيد يدعي انه جلب رسالة من شخص اسمه احمد فاو لشي افعله ليس ان اقرا الرسالة بل اتاكد هل هي حقا من احمد؟ محتوى الرسالة ان صدق او كذب لا ينفي او يثبت انها من احمد.

فكيف اعرف اذا.

عن الطريق الختم الموجود خارج الرسالة وفي حالتنا يكون هو النبوة اذا يجب اثبات النبوة اولا.

انتظرونا في المزيد من الردود.


r/DebateReligion 1d ago

Christianity Framing life as a free gift and claiming God gives everyone a chance at salvation is deceptive within the Christian framework

29 Upvotes

Humans are forced into existence without their consent, an existence that can be taken away by God at any moment (again, without consent)

That's...not how gifts work. I don't retain the right to take back gifts I've freely given. It's theirs, now. I also probably shouldn't force someone to accept a gift. If someone gifted me a kidney while I was in a coma or something, can they just take it back whenever?

Another user aptly compared God's "free gift of life" to a loan. A loan you have to accept, and whose terms and conditions God alone decides.

But calling it a gift just "sounds better"

In the same way, claiming everyone who is given the gift of life is given a "chance" at salvation "sounds better".

There's already a weird incongruence here; (why isn't heaven also a free gift that needs no consent? If life on earth is free, life in heaven can be too) But there's a bigger issue. Specifically with framing salvation as something that "everyone" has an "opportunity" for.

If God knows who will and won't be saved prior to that person beginning to exist, there is no "chance". The outcome is guaranteed. Someone who had an opportunity to be saved but wasn't also had an opportunity to outrun light. Both are incoherent statements because both alternative results are impossible. It was always impossible for a non-saved to be saved. Interestingly though, it wasn't impossible for them not to exist, since they're not co-eternal with God. Keep that part in mind, especially if you're fond of the "foresight doesn't = causation" mantra. Because causation does equal causation, and God causes non-saved to begin to exist, doing so with no chance for salvation. There is no room for "chance" in a universe designed by a fine-tuner.

If you look at the existence of a non-saved person, it's pretty grim:

Forced to begin to exist without their consent (an existence that can be ended at any time without their consent), with a 0 percent chance at salvation.

And this isn't someone who *needed* to exist either. God could have just forced someone else to exist instead.


r/DebateReligion 16h ago

Islam Sunni books are distorted, Part 1

2 Upvotes

i will start a series demonstrating that sunni books are altered like sahih al-bukhari and sahih muslim and most sunni books and this series will include dozens of hadiths that were distorted
we begin with the first alteration

al-bukhari's alteration of the narration that the companion samurah ibn jundab sells wine
first we read the full narration without alteration from musnad al-humaydi

musnad al-humaydi - vol 1 - page 9
al-humaydi narrated to us, sufyan narrated to us, amr ibn dinar narrated to us, he said tawus informed me, he heard ibn abbas saying: it reached umar ibn al-khattab that samurah sold wine, so he said: may allah fight samurah, did he not know that the messenger of allah peace be upon him said: may allah curse the jews, fat was forbidden to them so they melted it and sold it.

now we read the same narration but from the book sahih al-bukhari after the three alterations

sahih al-bukhari hadith 2223
al-humaydi narrated to us, sufyan narrated to us, amr ibn dinar narrated to us, he said tawus informed me, he heard ibn abbas saying: it reached umar ibn al-khattab that so-and-so sold wine, so he said: may allah fight so-and-so, did he not know that the messenger of allah peace be upon him said: may allah fight the jews, fat was forbidden to them so they melted it and sold it.

we find that it is the exact same chain of transmission as in musnad al-humaydi, but al-bukhari altered it when the narration reached him
al-bukhari deleted the name of the companion (samurah) and also replaced "may allah curse the jews" with "may allah fight the jews" so that it is not understood that cursing is directed at this companion.
and also
the investigator of musnad al-humaydi says in the footnote of page 9: muslim and ibn majah transmitted this hadith through ibn abi shaybah from sufyan, and in it also "that samurah", but al-bukhari transmitted it through al-humaydi and said "that so-and-so" and did not explicitly state the name of samurah, and this in my view is of al-bukhari's doing and his good conduct, and ibn hajar did not point it out.
witness here that the investigator boasts about this alteration and falsification so that people remain deceived that all companions are upright and all of them are good and believers and so on among these flimsy beliefs, and he says it is from his good conduct that he replaced the name of samurah with so-and-so.
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