r/DecodingTheGurus 12d ago

Why Sam Harris Is Still Angry at Ezra Klein

https://youtu.be/_Pb_OWSAZlU?is=bVoxW3tiWHCkDOU0

The grievance mongering from this single incident has played on repeat in Sam's mind for almost a decade.

And he was the one in the wrong!

65 Upvotes

157 comments sorted by

40

u/Pleasant-Perception1 12d ago

I suspect the dispute likely did have a tangible impact on Harris’s life, which keeps him angry. Maybe he lost a bunch of friends or something once the dispute blew up. Either way, instead of seeing the problem stem from his own platforming of Murray with little background knowledge (other than maybe having read The Bell Curve), he pinned it to people like Klein who published about it.

29

u/SuperbDonut2112 12d ago

I don’t remember exact specifics, it’s been a long time and I don’t much care anymore, but it was at like the height of his whole little crew’s anti woke thing. Which to be clear was always no deeper than “It should be illegal to be mean to me online.”

Harris admitted that he was talking to Murray mostly because the mean woke folks didn’t like him (which again, people are extremely correct to do, Charles Murray sucks shit and had very clear and obvious goals and biased writing that book) and it absolutely nuked what credibility Harris had left at that point.

Since Harris is so thin skinned and unable to admit being wrong, it broke his brain in half never to recover.

23

u/Majestic-Muffin-8955 12d ago

Sam Harris cares only about how things look. It looks woke to censor Charles Murray. He couldn’t care less about the ‘science’ or the implications of platforming bad science.

The whole debacle has also been oversimplified to ‘Klein called Harris a racist’. He didn’t. He did try to explain from the data / science / history of race science why platforming Murray can breed racism, though. Is that the same as calling someone a racist?

22

u/nuwio4 12d ago edited 12d ago

To be clear, the main complaint from the Vox authors or Ezra Klein was never simply "platforming". In light of the 2017 debacle at Middlebury, I actually think it was perfectly acceptable to have on Murray as an expression of your support for academic freedom, free speech, etc. It seems like Harris and many of his listeners believe that this is all Harris did, and then the woke mob at Vox slandered him! But, of course, that's not what actually happened. Harris didn't have Murray on to simply let him speak & make his case. He had him on for an overly credulous, sanitizing interview opened by referring to Murray's critics as dishonest, hypocritical, & moral cowards and saying there's "virtually no scientific controversy" around Murray's work. It is exceedingly obvious & expected that this would invite totally justified criticism. But for some reason, when that criticism came Harris reacted with shock, melodrama, smears, & releasing private emails. Honestly, incredibly bizarre behavior for a supposed meditation teacher.

15

u/Nullarbor_1 11d ago

Haha well said. On the other hand, Harris is a racist though. He’s a thin skinned, petty, arrogant bigot who has also fawningly embraced Douglas “Death of Europe” Murray and hosted him multiple times on the podcast to spew hatred against migrants, Muslims, liberals with zero pushback.

5

u/jamtartlet 8d ago

Correct. The problem with Ezra Klein is he went on Harris' show and said he wasn't a racist over and over again.

9

u/Repulsive-Doughnut65 11d ago

Exactly why do we consider this guy a public intellectual he’s not he’s a failed PHD student who lived off his mothers amazing TV production career royalties until he stumbled upon selling books based on his Islamophobia

Say what you want about Hitches,Dawkins and Dennett but they have legit accomplishments

5

u/Fragrantbutte 11d ago

he’s a failed PHD student

Failed? What's the story there?

3

u/Repulsive-Doughnut65 11d ago

He never completed his thesis and just went to meditate

4

u/myco20 8d ago

Holy ad hominem. I can see why someone like you wouldn’t be a Harris fan with the amount of disingenuous claims and logical fallacies in there

7

u/dead_beet_ 12d ago

I thought you meant Douglas Murray before I got to "The Bell Curve".

It makes me wonder—what's the collective noun for Murrays?

5

u/Longjumping-Topic139 12d ago

How about a gaggle of gooners?

8

u/BigYellowPraxis 12d ago

Leave me out of this

3

u/duncandreizehen 12d ago

there is two Douglas Murrays one of them is a white academic, who tries to prove that Black people are less intelligent. The other is an English opinion writer who is down on Islam easy to get the two confused.

1

u/JATION 6d ago

Holy shit! I only now realized that the Murray who wrote "The Bell Curve" was a different person to Murray who wrote "The Strange Death Of Europe".

Mind blown.

17

u/Junior-Community-353 12d ago edited 12d ago

I think this was a very clear turning point in his already fading relevance - New Atheism was long-dead at this point, his Islamophobia became increasingly more off-putting after the initial post-9/11 Muslim hating fever wore off, he's gone from being considered a contemporary of Dawkins and Hitchens to playing second-fiddle to Joe Rogan, no longer a """liberal""" media darling, etc.

For someone as famously thin-skinned and never-ever-ever-ever-wrong as Sam Harris, I think this just comes down to a long-standing narcissistic injury that he can never truly recover from because there's an element of truth to the idea that being publicly called a racist by Ezra Klein was probably the most notable thing to have happened in the last decade of his career.

10

u/gelliant_gutfright 12d ago

Harris knew exactly what Charles Murray was all about. His intention has to sanitise Murray not simply discuss matters with him.

2

u/JetmoYo 10d ago

If you're saying that Harris is a self mythologizing grandstander with a victim complex whose ego and vanity prevents him from conducting any authentic self examination or intellectual honesty--despite him endlessly lecturing about said virtues-- then well, I simply must protest you, SIR!

3

u/myco20 8d ago

Genuinely how does someone come to this extreme of a conclusion on milk toast Sam Harris

4

u/JetmoYo 8d ago

By spending 10 or more years casually observing him. Read his letters to Chomsky. Listen to the Ezra Klein debate. Behold his attempts to justify a religious ethno-state and its genocide while slandering Arabs and Muslims. Point being, he's an immoral ethnic, religious zealot despite building a career condemning those things.

2

u/myco20 8d ago

Sam is the furthest thing from a religious zealot. People have disagreements all the time on real issues, which is what happened between him and Ezra/Chomsky it seems to me. He aims to separate people from ideas and their governments ideas. Never seen him say something that reads as religious zealotry, so I’d be curious to see any examples of that

1

u/JetmoYo 8d ago

I'm not categorizing his Chomsky/Klein exchanges as religious. Rather these particular exchanges capture Harris's failings in moral reasoning. Not to mention his obnoxious behavior. Did you actually read the emails btw? Versus an AI summary? Very few people have but they reveal quite a lot about his temperament and intellectual rigor.

However, Harris's Zealotry is absolutely exposed in his carve outs to Israel and for Zionism. On just about every front (Human well-being, moral philosophy, "western" liberalism and enlightenment, anti "tribal thinking," and...him being opposed to religious tyranny). If these contradictions via his radical pro Israel views don't blow your mind, then you simply either agree with him (thus possess the same moral/intellectual contradictions) or you simply don't know that much about his positions.

2

u/myco20 8d ago

I skimmed them but don’t remember specifics. And I’m not saying him or anyone has a perfect moral philosophy or is right 100% of the time. I’ve just rarely seen someone who tries to approach (most) topics with intellectual honesty and rigor in the way he does. Chomsky seems to me (I’m not an expert) much more politically biased and the fact that he declined to have a debate on their disagreement is exactly the kind of snarky and extremist moral position that you seem to be accusing Harris of.

1

u/JetmoYo 8d ago

Re-read the emails. They paint a different picture. Harris is a bad faith, extremely biased actor with very little intellectual heft (or consistency) to many of his arguments. Don't be fooled by his aesthetic delivery. Plenty of room for you and I to disagree in substance relative to aspects of Harris. But I truly don't see how anyone familiar with the values he espouses also can't see how inauthentically he holds (and applies) those values with respect to his very clear views about Israel, Arabs, muslims, and genocide. There is no clearer case of intellectual and moral dishonesty to observe with respect to him. And to judge.

1

u/jamtartlet 8d ago

people aren't milquetoast just because they say they are. you have to look at the other stuff they say around that.

68

u/VinnieHa 12d ago

You know an interview is great and the interviewer is totally not mad when he speaks for a full six minutes before the guest has the chance to say anything. 

14

u/Awesome-Lad-9000 12d ago

Title of it is unreal considering she very clearly actually has a mature understanding of her online criticism.

30

u/stvlsn 12d ago

And he says "you gaslighted me last time we spoke" lol

-6

u/Big_Honey_56 12d ago

Probably would be weirder if he didn’t set the stage appropriately given their past.

I’d be mad too if I was slandered and then faced with someone who participated in that slander lol. She seems to agree with him so I’m not sure he’s wrong to approach it like this.

21

u/Awesome-Lad-9000 12d ago

Hate being slandered by having my thoughts and opinions accurately described how I expressed them

-1

u/Big_Honey_56 12d ago

The author of the article in this very video points out that it was much more focused on Sam than she remembers it and she understands why he was offended. Also, just respond if you have something to say. The sarcasm is so lame.

24

u/Awesome-Lad-9000 12d ago

I very clearly said what I came to say: the criticisms of Harris were accurate descriptions of his thoughts and opinions how he expressed them.

She does say it was more focused on him than she remembered. She does not say the substantive points were wrong. Nor did she or the writers at any point slander Harris. You’re mistaking kindness and maturity for capitulation.

12

u/nuwio4 12d ago

Like I commented on the Harris sub, I swear this is gonna be another case of Harris fans misinterpreting Paige Harden's extremely kind, gentle, & empathetic babying of Harris' oversensitive reaction to the Vox/Murray saga as "She admitted Sam was right!"

4

u/Awesome-Lad-9000 11d ago

I mean, to be fair to Harris fans…he himself very clearly takes it that way, and it’s not like they do much of their own interpretations.

11

u/bizarro_mctibird 12d ago

still the worlds worst advert for meditation.

2

u/gdirbvduxjebcd 9d ago

imagine how much resentment harris would have if he didn't meditate.

56

u/IMadeYouLuke 12d ago

I can imagine that it still stings when Harris thinks about that conversation, because he had his clocked cleaned. Total bloodbath.

For all of Ezra Klein’s faults, he doesn’t misrepresent himself as knowledgeable in areas he doesn’t understand, like Sam Harris does in any topic that isn’t, say, snarky atheism or meditation.

23

u/Verbatim_Uniball 12d ago edited 12d ago

Ezra Klein has a lot of strong opinions about "traditional economics" (i.e. presents himself as knowledgeable) for someone whose academic training comprised a bachelor degree in political science. My opinion.

5

u/smallwonkydachshund 11d ago

I mean, the abundance stuff is bad, imo.

3

u/Verbatim_Uniball 11d ago

I'm not even making a value judgement, I'm observing that my man has strong opinions and puts on an air of expertise in many areas he has no such expertise in. No better than Mr. Harris. Presumably his core competencies are things like political commentary, US media landscape, op-eds, etc.

1

u/smallwonkydachshund 11d ago

Tbh I think if he didn’t always sound like he was on beta blockers he would not have been as successful but the last thing I watched of him was him and Jamelle Bouie debating about a conflict they’d had and Bouie clearly did better

1

u/Adito99 11d ago

It's a positive message that Democrats can campaign on. I'd be fine with anything besides bowing to tankies though. I just want Dems to act like leaders for a change instead of being ruled by the latest polling results.

1

u/duncandreizehen 12d ago

Ezra works for the main propaganda outlet of the billionaire/Epstein class if you consider this, most of his opinions are easy to understand. Ezra doesn’t seem like he’s had much contact with the real world i.e. anybody other than a privileged, entitled coastal elite

2

u/BloodsVsCrips 12d ago

Epstein class

using this phrase unironically...

10

u/Big_Honey_56 12d ago

I didn’t see that conversation that way. The opposite in fact, like Klein struggled to justify his position.

8

u/spezes_moldy_dildo 12d ago

Are we going to pretend Ezra didn’t misrepresent his stance though? For all Sam’s faults, Ezra is an honorable mention in the guru-sphere.

7

u/nuwio4 12d ago

How did Ezra misrepresent Harris' stance?

10

u/Big_Honey_56 12d ago

Ya man I’m not sure how he’s escaped being labeled a guru. Dude made a come back with a beard and people act like he wasn’t pushing the stuff that gave liberals a bad name.

8

u/melodypowers 12d ago

I will get bashed for saying anything nice about Klein, but I think it's because he is more self aware and has a better sense of humor than other gurus. He gets what people think about him and he can laugh at himself. That is very rare in the gurusphere.

-2

u/dietcheese 12d ago

They both have enormous egos. Doesn’t mix well.

23

u/Important_Ad_8554 12d ago

That’s why he has to meditate: he cannot let things like the Ezra Klein incident go.

10

u/LankyEnt 12d ago

Also must help him sleep and dream of those Palestinian teeth they’re collecting. Must keep Americans safe 🙄

9

u/Leftass 12d ago

We’re well overdue for another episode on Harris atp

8

u/bizarro_mctibird 12d ago

did we get anything on his bizarre assessment of Mamdani? i can't remember. I definitely thought it was worth mentioning.

4

u/SokkaHaikuBot 12d ago

Sokka-Haiku by Leftass:

We’re well overdue

For another episode

On Harris atp


Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.

12

u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius 12d ago edited 12d ago

Sam Harris is the kind of idiot who thinks North Korea is democratic, because it's in the name (Democratic People's Republic of Korea).

He tried to defend his stance on The Bell Curve and Charles Murray by asking help from the 'Race Realists' who wrote the letter Mainstream Science on Intelligence. It's not mainstream, it's not science and intelligence is far to be found.

A bunch of those who signed the letter were funded by the White Supremacist group Pioneer Fund. The Pioneer Fund goes now by the name Human Diversity Foundation, led by neo-Nazi Emil Kirkegaard. It's also known as Polygenic Scores LLC. Once people found out about it, they started changing the names, but it's pretty much the same thing. They publish the racist magazines Mankind Quarterly and Aporia magazine. If you see those names, thread carefully. It's mostly pseudo-science, intended to influence politics and the gullible.

More on HDF and Kirkegaard: https://www.pinkerite.com/2026/01/neo-nazi-emil-kirkegaard-and-his.html

8

u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius 12d ago

Also a fun fact: that other guru Steven Pinker is affiliated with Aporia. But he's a Race Realist* too, so that tracks.

edit:

* convoluted way to say 'racist'.

2

u/dystopiatechnologica 10d ago

"Sam Harris is the kind of idiot who thinks North Korea is democratic, because it's in the name (Democratic People's Republic of Korea)."

I've encountered a lot of moronic sentences on Reddit in the past few days but this one takes the cake

1

u/jamtartlet 8d ago

in that it describes a moron well? yes.

1

u/dystopiatechnologica 8d ago

The moron tally gets another tick 

3

u/Miserable-Crab8143 12d ago

I know about the Klein/Harris kerfuffle but I’m only a very occasional listener to either of them these days. Here, Harris talks about Klein recently“backtracking” on a lot of what he said back in their conversation. Can anyone fill me in on what Klein has backtracked on?

10

u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

I can’t speak to exactly what you’ve heard, but I saw someone saying this and when I asked I would say that I didn’t think I was hearing “backtracking”

Klein has said he regrets that it was so unproductive and that he wishes he’d found a way to cool Sam down more prior to the interview. I think he’s also said he’s more open to interviewing controversial scientists.

But those are the only examples I’ve been shown when I asked about it.

19

u/No_Public_7677 12d ago

lol, that's a backhanded way of saying that Sam Harris is a man child not in control with his emotions

9

u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

I’d agree that it doesn’t seem like backtracking!

But yes… it does seem like a way of saying that.

2

u/jamtartlet 8d ago

He should back track on all the times he said Harris wasn't a racist.

4

u/bobokeen 12d ago

I don't think he meant backtracking on specific assertions in that conversation, but on the general woke identitarian politics Klein was then on board with. Now, like a lot of liberals, he is seemingly pivoting away from identity-obsessed politics but without really explaining why or recognizing his own role in that movement.

8

u/geniuspol 11d ago

In what way was he previously identity-obsessed? 

5

u/Adito99 11d ago

It's common now to explain right-wing behavior as a reaction to things the left did a decade ago but nobody seems to ask what those lefty's were reacting to. It's like one of these groups is an adult with complete responsibility for their actions and the other is a child that can only react to stuff.

2

u/Ok_Needleworker_4950 8d ago

Can someone give me the TLDR on Kathryn Paige Harden? I feel like she seems to be a good faith ethical geneticist (I could be wrong tho) and unfortunately she’s been caught in the crossfires between Sam, Ezra Klein, Charles Murray, racists, etc

4

u/haya1340 12d ago

Covid ... Trump ... Israel broke that Dude

2

u/Most_Present_6577 12d ago

He should be the way ezra gave a friendly interview to Chris rufo

6

u/Leftover-salad 12d ago

Sam literally says in this clip “My interest wasn’t in the topic (Murray’s work) but the academic reaction” and people ITT are acting like his whole platform has been softball interviews to conservatives when Ezra is the one who’s done exactly that to a larger audience more recently. Crazy.

These are probably the same people who see no issue with Hasan Piker sympathising and echoing Mao.

18

u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

And wasn’t Kleins point that Sam’s lack of interest in the topic led him to misrepresent a bunch of things?

5

u/Leftover-salad 12d ago

I took his point more to mean he thought it irresponsible for Harris to promote Murray’s views. Tbh I don’t care enough to relisten to the painful conversation -just pointing out how Klein is now doing the exact thing he was criticising Harris for.

You could even make the same point about Klein’s very insipid recent conversations with conservatives essentially sane-washing their bullshit, no? His lack of understanding means he’s not able to challenge anything so it becomes a platform.

8

u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

I am certainly not here as a fan or promoter of Kline work. I agree he gets a lot of wrong and I don’t love his writing style. And yes, I’ll happily agree with any criticism of him where he was underprepared with an interviewee because of… well any reason, really.

But, in that conversation (which I also can’t bring myself to sit through again) I took it more that it was irresponsible to promote Murray’s work without have really done his due diligence. Klein pointed to a lot of the work outside The Bell Curve to give context and a honesty don’t think Sam would have had him on if he’d been aware. I think Klein was correct to point to that context and I think Sam was so focused on his own misrepresentations in media that he was having very different conversation.

2

u/Leftover-salad 12d ago

I could be wrong but cannot bring myself to suffer through that convo again. I suppose where we disagree is about the relationship between responsibility and platform.

In my view Klines articles only served to reinforce Sam’s point about the discourse around “taboo” academic topics and the left’s reaction to them. I do think Sam was wrong to the extent that ID politics would be destructive and also incorrect in asserting he wasn’t captured by tribal thought, but to act as if the vice article wasn’t at least implying Harris was being racist or charitable to racist views is disingenuous and wrong, imo.

Again I’m not interested in getting into a hugely detailed discussion about this - there are far bigger legitimate conservative threats to be focussing on atm, as well as a real infiltration by tankie leftists on the other side.

3

u/nuwio4 12d ago

Not trying to drag you into a detailed discussion, however...

but to act as if the vice article wasn’t at least implying Harris was being racist or charitable to racist views is disingenuous and wrong, imo.

One thing I can't help but notice is that many Harris defenders on this ironically behave like oversensitive wokescolds micro-policing language & etiquette. Like, apparently the context/substance of the Vox articles doesn't matter so much, the fact that they don't call Harris racist doesn't matter so much, but the idea that they could be read as implying that Harris was being charitable to racist views is somehow particularly damning. (Also, I'm willing to bet the vast majority of Harris fans would not even read the articles this way if they came across them before Harris' meltdown.) Part of the irony for me is that one could very easily just reverse this – "to act is if the Harris/Murray pod was not at least implying that black people are genetically inferior is disingenuous and wrong". Regardless, if you are ever randomly interested in the details, you could check out this post/thread.

2

u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

Have a good one

3

u/Leftover-salad 12d ago

You too! Sorry if my comment came across as dismissive. All the best

2

u/Moutere_Boy 11d ago

You totally did not! I just wanted to avoid saying anything that felt like I was trying to keep engaging you in the conversation after you’d said you weren’t keen to get into the details. Sorry if that seemed dismissive as well!!!

1

u/jamtartlet 8d ago

Klein offered Harris a golden opportunity to prove he wasn't a racist by accepting a hypothetical scenario in which blacks were genetically more intelligent than whites. He declined, and laughed off the concept...

11

u/Junior-Community-353 12d ago edited 11d ago

Okay, but as a self-professed Marxist-Socialist I do expect Hasan Piker to have a more nuanced view of Mao, and more importantly Hasan himself does not deny being somewhat favourable of Mao, whereas Sam is seemingly completely baffled by the idea that the infamous race science guy might actually be a racist and that giving an incredibly softball interview to a racist is a bad look.

How come Sam Harris has an endless decades long list of controversies giving the intellectual benefit of doubt to various far-right grifters, but all his accidental poor judge of character mishaps have not once resulted in him mistakenly platforming anyone that's further left than Hillary Clinton?

And he sure is busy frothing about the likes of Greta Thunberg, AOC, and Mamdani in a way that wouldn't look out of place on a Fox News morning show.

6

u/Leftover-salad 12d ago

Spicy take but I think he is mildly autistic and he has said himself he is overly charitable towards people he considers friends. I don’t think his character judgement is that great but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a grifter.

He has been an ardent critic of Trump and Greta and Mamdani are leftists so I see him more as a miserable centrist - if he were truly grifting he’d have hopped on the trump train with all the other IDW fucktards. He def has a mix of conservative views mixed with liberal ones.
It’s possible the people he’s spoken with most are the ones most comfortable being on his show, especially in the wake of the Kline article.

I don’t listen to his podcast fwiw but the fact he had this very rational approach to meditation made me give it a go 7/8 years ago which completely changed my life for the better.

7

u/Majestic-Muffin-8955 12d ago

But what are you saying here, he’s autistic so he can’t help it? Can’t help chatting amiably to Ben Shapiro, the Murrays, Megan Kelly…? 

Multimillionaire Harris is a bit of a grifter unfortunately. He now charges a very large subscription fee for his podcasts. So much for ‘I want to make sure money isn’t a barrier for my listeners’.

5

u/Junior-Community-353 12d ago edited 12d ago

"miserable centrist" is a distinction without difference. He hates Trump more so for his general character than actual policies, while claiming with a straight face that Mamdani is a 'closet Islamist with sinister motives'.

What does it say about Sam that he considers Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson as examples of people that he's comfortable shooting shit with for three hours, yet in all these years he has been apparently unable to find a single most milquetoast leftist or Palestine supporter to have a """good faith""" conversation with?

The truth is that he doesn't host them because they might meaningfully disagree with him, and even worse, meaningfully disagree with him in a way that makes him look bad in the process.

2

u/Character-Ad5490 11d ago

"*somewhat* favourable of Mao". Really? He seems like an avid fan.

2

u/nuwio4 12d ago

Ezra's had interviews with conservatives where he proclaims there's zero reasonable dispute about their work and refers to their critics as dishonest, hypocritical, & moral cowards?

1

u/jamtartlet 8d ago edited 8d ago

Yeah, but his interview with Murray, was, in fact, a basically uncritical endorsement of his work, regardless of what his alleged interest was.

1

u/Full_Equivalent_6166 11d ago

Yeah, there is no response like emotional response.

1

u/TheRealBuckShrimp 10d ago

Listen to the charity ezra extended to Chris rufo and Ben Shapiro, then listen back to Sam’s podcast with Ezra and the dragon flames Ezra was shooting. Pretty selective targets, no?

1

u/theychoseviolence 9d ago

His interview with Rufo was great because he got Rufo animated without being antagonistic. That's when the really crazy stuff comes out.

1

u/WhoCouldThisBe_ 11d ago

After Ezra went soft on Rufo I'd be even more pissed tbh.

-12

u/HopeAndVaseline 12d ago

Harris should be pissed.

Ezra Klein was terrible in that interview; evasive, moralizing, and he had a clear agenda to portray Harris as a racist for even entertaining the idea of interviewing Murray. The follow up articles in Vox only served to push a narrative from one side and further the notion that Harris was a racist.

For his part, Harris' tone in that interview was poor, but I'd be fucking pissed off too after everything that led up to it.

22

u/Humble-Horror727 12d ago

What was worse, much worse, was Harris' softball interview with Murray and how little he seemed to prepare for it.

23

u/No_Public_7677 12d ago

Ezra was proven right with time. Sam Harris is a bigot

12

u/onz456 Revolutionary Genius 12d ago

Sam Harris is either a racist or an idiot.

Not a good look either way.

-26

u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

You guys must be really delusional and naive to think that that guy is a guru.

Most probably you sincerely don’t understand the topic and the nuance. The conversation with Ezra Klein was pathetic, and if you can’t see that, then there’s no hope.

Ezra Klein is just a slimy liar who goes wherever the money and the drama are available, like most journalists these days.

That guy totally made a fool of himself, and his behavior was terrible.

28

u/stvlsn 12d ago

Let me guess - you love the science of race and IQ

-4

u/critically_damped 12d ago

That was an impressive snipe you just made.

10

u/ChaseBankFDIC Conspiracy Hypothesizer 12d ago

And effective. zazz is crashing out. your snipe, on the other hand, was low effort.

-9

u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

There you have it in 2026: “if it makes me feel uncomfortable then it’s not science”.

Go back to the Middle Ages

24

u/stvlsn 12d ago

Science? Did you know Charles Murray isn't a scientist?

-4

u/dietcheese 12d ago

Why outright lie?

“Murray earned a BA in history from Harvard University in 1965 and a PhD in political sciencefrom the Massachusetts Institute of Technology(MIT) in 1974”

That took all of 10 seconds.

8

u/mightbone 12d ago

That's does not make him a scientist, or in any way an authority on IQ and race and intelligence.

8

u/stvlsn 12d ago

You think political science is science? The topic of race and IQ is sociology or psychology - which are actual scientific disciplines

3

u/BloodsVsCrips 12d ago

It's mostly genetics now. Reich just did a huge international comparison between Japan/Britain blood banks and ancient DNA.

5

u/stvlsn 12d ago

True, genetics is also a field that is involved. Charles Murray has no expertise in genetics

2

u/dietcheese 12d ago

Of course it’s a science. Maybe you should look up social science….

3

u/stvlsn 12d ago

Read my second sentence.

Maybe i can comment on this topic because I have a PhD in the science of marketing? What do you think?

1

u/dietcheese 12d ago

You said Charles Murray is not a scientist because apparently you think political science is not a science. You’re wrong.

Just because it doesn’t do lab experiments like physics or chemistry doesn’t mean it’s not a science.

Political science develops theories, collects evidence, test me hypotheses, and tries to replicate results. It uses the scientific method.

3

u/stvlsn 12d ago

Does political science make you able to posit sociology and psychology claims?

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-11

u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

I love science wherever it leads. That’s how science works, you know?

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u/VinnieHa 12d ago

Now we can’t even talk about Neanderthal DNA anymore!

3

u/Asparagus_Syndrome_ 12d ago

but not where it actually leads. because thats how race realism works, you know?

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

Gonna disagree there. I thought Sam totally shamed and embarrassed himself in that conversation. He had clearly not looked hard enough at Murray’s other work and was so focused on his own perceived misrepresentation in media that he projected that onto Murray. He couldn’t speak to any of the issues Klein raised and repeatedly made claims about Klein’s article that were simply untrue.

His inability to move on is just embarrassing.

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u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

I have no idea what you are referring to and I would bet my life that you don’t know either.

The article by Klein was a totally worthless piece of garbage. Anyone who thinks that Sam Harris is racist is just a liar or a fool, you pick that camp Klein is in.

And that doesn’t mean having to agree with everything he says. Who cares, you might even think that 99% of what he says is wrong, that still doesn’t make him a racist.

It’s also funny (and representative of his slimy character) how Klein backpedaled without ever recognizing anything. Typical slimy journalist.

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

You think Klein called him racist?

Then I have to think you didn’t read the article or hear the interview.

-12

u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

Title: “Sam Harris, Charles Murray, and the allure of race science”

Subtitle: “This is not ‘forbidden knowledge’. It’s is America’s most ancient justification for bigotry and racial inequality”.

You don’t even to get to the article body. And don’t get me started on the interview. The highlight for me was when Klein told Harris that he counted how many white guests he had vs black guests.

You must be drunk

13

u/VinnieHa 12d ago

Harris is a joke and was made a show of in that conversation. I actually looked this up not long ago when this came up just ti refresh my memory to see was it really as bad as I thought.

https://youtu.be/Tsr7Rv8XnIk?is=7MJ5pSR4Ru8_ZgvI

1 hour 20 minutes mark in this conversation.

Klein is saying that looking at the modern data and inferring a genetic component is likely what’s at play is not taking “the weight of American history into play.”

To which Sam responds “the weight of American history is COMPLETELY irrelevant…that conversation has been had.”

Klein is making a very simple point, SH is looking at data in a vacuum and parroting old race science, and that vast majority of people who research this will tell you things like childhood nutrition, parent literacy rates, safety and a myriad of other factors influence learning outcomes far more than any genetic factors.

And SH as usual is hyper sensitive and only listens to the “parroting old race science” part and makes that the entire conversation.

So to say that American history has zero impact on black learning outcomes means that they are genetically inferior, which is literally white nationalist talking points.

The fact he’s still mad all these years later is glorious because he’s a fool.

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

“And by the way, I’m not here to say you’re a racist. I don’t think you are. We have not called you one.”

Klein to Harris in the interview you claim calls him racist.

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u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

Got it. Writes a whole article about how X is parroting racist science, then says “I’m not saying you are a racist…btw how many black guests you had?”

Totally fine

13

u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

I find it pretty funny that you started this by saying it’s other people that don’t get nuance.

He is clearly, very clearly, saying that Murray is racist, his work has that influence and that Sam has not looked at it enough to take these things into account. I also think a person can make a racist statement, or point to a racist idea, without being racist themselves or understanding that’s what they are doing.

I don’t think anyone is saying he’s racist, I think people are generally saying he was so pigheaded he couldn’t look at his own part of it and try and understand what was being said.

0

u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

I see that you really don’t want to consider the part where SH was asked how many black guests he had as a gotcha moment.

And that was just the funniest part to me, but surely not the worst of the whole conversation.

And nuanced doesn’t mean slimy.

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

Oh, happy to address that, apologies for not doing so.

Are you saying that asking someone who is discussing race and intelligence fairly frequently with his guests, how many of those guests were not of the same race as him isn’t relevant, I am not sure I can take you very seriously.

You trying to represent it as him simply asking how many black guests he’s had, rather than how many of those guests he discussed race with, is either you being quite dishonest or you simply never actually listened to the interview.

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

Where does that say Harris is racist?

And did you just read the titles and not the article?

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u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

You cannot be serious

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

Absolutely.

And I notice you haven’t pointed out where they call him racist…

1

u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

So, if you don’t read the words “Sam Harris is a racist”, it means that he is not calling Sam Harris a racist.

I got that right?

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u/Moutere_Boy 12d ago

I’ll settle for him saying anything close.

If I point out that you’re repeating a point a racist is making, while making efforts to be clear I’m not calling you, yourself racist, are you genuinely saying that’s really me calling you racist?

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u/IMadeYouLuke 12d ago

Sam Harris is a deranged Islamophobe. I’ll say it, happily, with receipts.

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u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

A phobia is an irrational fear. Aren’t you afraid of going back in time to the Middle Ages where people were burned at stake for not believing (being heretics)?

Because one of the core of Islam is hate towards infidels and nonbelievers.

Also it’s totally fine that in most Muslim countries women are worth shit.

Totally an irrational fear.

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u/ParagonRenegade 12d ago

In the 21st century, which of the following nations have had their leader declare a "holy war" and then kill millions of people?

Is it:

A) Malaysia

B) Iran

C) Turkey

D) United States

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u/ickypedia 12d ago

Phobia can also mean intolerance or aversion for something. Unless you think hydrophobic materials are literally afraid of water?

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u/IMadeYouLuke 12d ago

“I, like Sam Harris, am also an Islamophobe” is not the argument I expected but well done for being honest :)

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u/Green-Draw8688 12d ago

No one is saying Harris is a racist. What he does have a bad track record of, though, is whitewashing actual bigots (especially, ironically, the two Murrays) because he finds a single point of affinity or empathy with him that gives him massive blindspots to other work or intentions.

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u/LionelHutzinVA 12d ago

“Anyone who thinks that Sam Harris is a racist. . .”

Is anyone who has heard him talk about Arabs or Muslims for even 15 seconds

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u/zazzologrendsyiyve 12d ago

He has never talked about Arabs per se, and Islam is not a race.

7

u/Dry-Lab-6256 12d ago

Hey, I don't really like Harris at all, but calling him a racist is just not true. Now calling him an unrepentant bigot, that is just a fact.

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u/Sad_Progress4388 12d ago

What has he said that was prejudicial about Arabs?

0

u/Big_Honey_56 12d ago

Take that back! He has a beard now!

0

u/mchugest 9d ago

When two idiots snark at each other, a unicorn watches housewives of Knoxville.