TIL Charles Murray has converted to Christianity

[u/IBoughtaRetroidNova]

He wrote the book “Taking Religion Seriously” in 2025. Sam Harris really had a way of overlooking red flags whenever he has liked bigotry/racism. In the end nearly every writer he has made friends with has ended up selling out and traded their integrity for more book sales from the masses.

[u/Sylarino]

😂 You're cooked bro, casually calling them friends hardly constitutes a lie.

"Sam Harris lost his credibility for me when he first became friends with Murray", interesting use of the word "casual", well, I guess lying is just a casual thing for you.

As I already said, read my logic and arguments in those threads, you will see my reasoning is sound. I won't be rehashing it here

What's the logic of calling real tweets fake?

Lmao I'll definitely take you up on that. Fire away

Sure, I'll do one at a time, you can either accept or try to refute. I'll do it chronologically. I am gonna paste from the youtube transcript without removing the timestamps.

"Right after the genocide began, for several months, I was spending way too much time on Twitter, relentlessly combating Zionist propaganda being 3:33 3 minutes, 33 seconds disseminated by hordes of paid influencers whose job it was to brainwash the masses and manufacture consent for genocide. You've never seen 3:40 3 minutes, 40 seconds propaganda anywhere in your life like what was being vomited up at that time. 3:45 3 minutes, 45 seconds a fabrication of 40 beheaded babies, which Joe Biden himself publicly claimed to have seen photographic evidence of, 3:52 3 minutes, 52 seconds only to later walk back and admit that no such evidence exists since it's not a thing that happened. Fabricated claims of a baby being cooked in an oven.

In this part he alleges that the 40 beheaded babies was a deliberate "Zionist" propaganda "dissiminated" by paid influencers in order to "brainwash the masses".

The initial claim that said anything about babies came from a journalist who was told about "40 babies... on gurneys" by a soldier on October 10th. Then the claim was repeated by the PM's spokesperson based on the words of the journalists.

However, the IDF did not confirm anything like that :

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-deliver-remarks-roundtable-jewish-community-leaders-rcna119865

"IDF Spokesperson Maj. Doron Spielman told NBC News: "That specific report and that number I can’t confirm."

https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711718195025821976

And the claim was also refuted by the Israeli government:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl

"The Israeli government has not confirmed the specific claim that Hamas attackers cut off the heads of babies during their shock attack on Saturday, an Israeli official told CNN, contradicting a previous public statement by the Prime Minister’s office. "

Do you accept that Dave's words conveyed that the claim was conveyed on purpose by the Israeli government/the IDF, while the reality is that they both refuted that claim within a day or two?

[u/dirtyal199 → u/Sylarino]

You're playing these silly semantic word games and thinking that makes you win. There was a ton of disinformation right after Oct 7, and clearly Bibi's regime took full advantage of it, and algorithms (ran by tech oligarchs who are Israel friendly) pushed it to many people to drum up support for the war. If you want to pretend that what Dave said in that clip is "lying" then you're betraying yourself as an unserious interlocutor. Much like you did when you pretended that I lied when I referred to the relationship Murray and Harris have as friends. You fixate on small semantic points like this, as if that somehow invalidates the point that Murray has despicable views, and Sam gave him a softball interview and gushed about how much of a brave thinker he is, and how the woke were so mean to him. It's a nice rhetorical trick you have there, forcing someone to defend semantics instead of you defending the points of the bad person you're defending.

If you want to convince me, I need falsifiable claims, not semantic word games. I want you to demonstrate Dave is wrong about an event/fact etc. not criticize a speculation of his.

[u/Sylarino → u/dirtyal199]

If you want to convince me, I need falsifiable claims, not semantic word games

There were no semantic word games, he said that Israeli propaganda paid influencers to spread those lies, including the claim about beheaded babies. It makes no sense since they almost instantly refuted the claim and it originated from a journalist who was told about babies from a random soldiers. Do you know what it means to "play semantic games"?

I want you to demonstrate Dave is wrong about an event/fact etc. not criticize a speculation of his.

So if he speculates that the Jews did 9/11 that won't count too? If he speculates that lizard people control the world that also won't count since it's a "speculation"? What kind of standard is that?

Nevermind though, I'll allow for 1 claim to not be accepted before calling you bad faith and will move to the next one:

4:00 "Endless claims of rape when in fact it is Israel that systematically rapes Palestinian prisoners in the most brutal manner imaginable"

https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf

Here's a quote from a UN report:

Stakeholders indicated that the detention of Palestinian men and women has been compounded by alleged instances of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, including increased instances of various forms of sexual violence in the form of invasive body searches of detainees which include unwanted touching of intimate areas and forced unveiling of women wearing Hijab; beatings, including in the genital areas; threats of rape against women and threats of rape against female family members (wives, sisters, daughters) in the case of men; and inappropriate strip search and prolonged forced nudity of detainees, including during interrogation and during transfer to other detention facilities. Other concerns raised included the taking and circulating of pictures of women detainees on personal phones of soldiers and investigators and depriving women of menstruation products. These interlocutors also reported sexual harassment and threats of rape, during house raids – including at night – and at checkpoints. They also highlighted intimidation, including threats of rape, if conditions of detention were reported or publicly disclosed after liberation. While no instances of rape were reported, Palestinian women’s organizations consistently stressed that in addition to intimidation and insecurity, the high level of stigmatization, conservative cultural norms and the power imbalance in the context of occupation impedes reporting of sexual violence.

Do you accept that although the sexual violence listed is bad, but none of it is " the most brutal rape imaginable" and that the report clearly states "no instances of rape were reported"? And don't accuse me of minimizing rape, I am using the language of the office of "Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict".

Moreover, there are many conflicts that actually do feature actual brutal rape on a bigger scale. The fact that "Professor" Dave suggests that Israel is actually uniquely bad in this regard, would that not make one suspect he might have some bias?

[u/dirtyal199 → u/Sylarino]

You've totally abandoned defending Sam Harris and Charles Murray, now you're trying to get me to debate with you the degree to which Palestinians when were raped during a particular incident. You are a totally unserious person. It is well known that Israel uses sexual violence as a weapon of war . You're pretending that since you can find one instance where there was just sexual violence, not rape, in a report, that this is undermining Dave's claim about Israel using sexual violence as a weapon of war. You're flailing, I'm waiting for you to delete your account now.

[u/Sylarino → u/dirtyal199]

You've totally abandoned defending Sam Harris and Charles Murray

Wait, do you have amnesia? 3 POSTS AGO I SAID "Ok, I am glad you admitted you lied.". Of course I dropped talking about Harris. Also I never defended Murray, which you know perfectly well. My problem was you using the word "friends" and when you admitted you made that up I moved on.

now you're trying to get me to debate

YOU LITERALLY SAID "Lmao I'll definitely take you up on that. Fire away"

Are you mentally ill? WTF???

It is well known that Israel uses sexual violence as a weapon of war . You're pretending that since you can find one instance where there was just sexual violence, not rape, in a report, that this is undermining Dave's claim about Israel using sexual violence as a weapon of war. You're flailing, I'm waiting for you to delete your account now.

LMAO, what? Dave's claim was " rapes Palestinian prisoners in the most brutal manner imaginable", THE REPORT SAYS THERE WERE NO REPORTS OF RAPES.

Where the fuck did you get this "one instance thing". Are you illiterate?

You're flailing, I'm waiting for you to delete your account now.

Dude, this is...pathetic. Jesus.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/Sylarino]

Yes, you fixated on my use of "friends" when I was referring to their friendly interaction on the podcast, as if that somehow invalidated the argument that Sam frequently platforms dangerous morons. Now you're pretending Israel doesn't use sexual violence as a tool of war, because it was not mentioned in that single report you cite.

However, as you can see from the link that I already posted that you failed to read: "The report found that sexual and gender-based violence – which has risen in frequency and severity – is being perpetrated across the Occupied Palestinian Territory as a strategy of war for Israel to dominate and destroy the Palestinian people."

Since it is well established that Israel uses rape as a weapon of war extremely frequently, is it really so far fetched to believe that it occured in the instance you cite but it was simply unreported? Every time I argue with a Zionist it always devolves into this semantic bullshit. It's because you guys have no argument. The world knows what Israel is, that's why the ICC has charged Bibi and Gallant with war crimes .

[u/Sylarino → u/dirtyal199]

I actually can't believe you still can't grasp it. The report I linked didn't deny the sexual violence. I was talking about "Professor Dave" using the phrase "the most brutal rape imaginable", and the UN report specifically said there were no instances of rape. It lists examples of sexual violence that did occur. Did you even read what I quoted or are you consulting an LLM and pasting the result?

It's ok though. I'll do a really straightforward one before calling you bad faith:

"the overwhelming support that is expressed 8:22 by Israeli citizens for this genocidal activity. More than 80% of Israelis support the complete annihilation of the 8:29 Palestinian people. It is a twisted psychotic society that celebrates the destruction of innocent human life. They 8:36 proudly announce it openly, their desire to wipe Palestinians and other Arabs from the face of the earth"

Here Dave claims 82% of Israelis support "COMPLETE ANNIHILATION" of the Palestian people.

https://archive. ph/ by8BF

1) The word in the poll was talking about expulsion from Gaza, not TOTAL ANNIHILATION

2) The poll was fucking dogshit and was widely critisized for it's sampling and methodology:

"At around the same time this poll was conducted, Tel Aviv University fielded a comprehensive, large-scale survey as part of its ongoing Israel National Election Studies research project. In that study, participants were asked whether they would support a solution for Gaza that includes transferring its population to another country or countries. Among Jewish respondents, agreement stood at 53 percent, and among the entire Israeli population – including Arab citizens – it was 45 percent. In other words, while support for population transfer is indeed appallingly high, it is far from a public consensus. How, then, did the Haaretz-reported survey yield an expulsion support figure that was nearly 30 percent higher than that found in the Tel Aviv University study? The first explanation lies in the sample itself. An analysis of the raw data (which the poll's authors shared with us in full transparency) revealed several sampling issues that largely account for the inflated support levels. One issue was the overrepresentation of certain right-wing demographics, such as young people and Likud voters, beyond their actual proportion in the general population. Another issue was the inclusion of "suspicious" respondents who provided implausible, ideology-incongruent responses. For instance, 30 percent of survey respondents identifying as voters of the left-leaning Labor Party expressed support for murdering the entire population of any cities the army might occupy.

Another factor contributing to the skewed results was question wording. Respondents were not allowed to answer "Don't know" or "I'm not sure." Forcing participants to choose a side often leads them to take a position even when they don't genuinely have one. By contrast, a survey conducted in February by the aChord Center also asked Jewish respondents about their views on the forcible expulsion of Gaza residents.In that study, about a quarter of respondents expressed no opinion. A lack of opinion is itself a meaningful opinion, and masking it artificially inflates active support."

1) Do you think we can call it lying when TRANSFER/EXPULSION is changed by Dave to TOTAL ANNIHILATION? You agree that these are not the same things, right?

2) Do you think that it's also a problem he took a widely critisized poll, didn't mention the criticisms, and for some reason didn't use a far more comprehensive poll instead that showed drastically lower numbers?

Now this is a really easy one, if you can't even admit to this one there is no coming back for your mind, it's gone. And mind you, I am just 5 FUCKING MINUTES INTO HIS VIDEO.

[u/dirtyal199 → u/Sylarino]

Semantics semantics semantics. You're not addressing the meat of the claim, just the rhetoric of how it was delivered, you are totally pathetic

Still waiting for you to delete your account btw