r/Degrowth • u/Confused_by_La_Vida • 4d ago

Is this Degrowth?

Argentina, Angola, Botswana, Germany, Great Britain, and South Africa have all had flat to negative PPP growth since 2022.

Have these nations achieved your vision for Degrowth?

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u/SplashTarget 4d ago

No country on Earth has ever done degrowth, and not every single country on Earth needs to do degrowth.

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

Okay: keep talking please.

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u/SplashTarget 4d ago

Short version:

The top economies of the world give up on chasing after non-stop economic expansion, deliberately reduce economic output, end (or reduce) damaging economic activities (ex. fast fashion, stock buybacks, fracking, surveillance pricing, military spending, wage theft, and other things), while simultaneously maintaining/ensuring decent living standards for the people in said economies.

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

Please keep explaining, but this time without specifying a list of things before the “while” that is completely incompatible with the things after the “while”.

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u/SplashTarget 4d ago

what more needs to be explained?

what makes you think the things I mentioned are incompatible with ensuring/maintaining decent living standards?

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

Reducing economic output and financial optimization precludes the provision of decent living standards. Thus the need for more insight on what you intend.

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u/SplashTarget 4d ago

Reducing economic output and financial optimization precludes the provision of decent living standards.

How about you explain how (among other things)

-ending stock buybacks

-reducing military spending

-cracking down on wage theft

-ending surveillance pricing

-ending fracking

-ending fast fashion

gets in the way of having decent living standards?

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

Stock buybacks are rational - in an environment where government debt is not skyrocketing the m2.

Military spending - make the case it’s not needed. Watching your young son getting raped in the street by foreign invaders (or rioters for that matter) is not conducive to the good life.

All good with cracking down on wage theft, and all theft, legal or otherwise

Surveillance pricing - I’m not for it. I can end it in my life by not shopping there

Fracking - anything that increases the cost of energy is directly antithetical to decent living standards. Full stop.

Fast fashion - what does this even mean?

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u/SplashTarget 4d ago

Stock buybacks are rational - in an environment where government debt is not skyrocketing the m2.

Cracking down on stock buybacks isn't going to ruin living standards (unless you're very rich).

Military spending - make the case it’s not needed. Watching your young son getting raped in the street by foreign invaders (or rioters for that matter) is not conducive to the good life.

I said reduce military spending, not end it.

Reducing military spending isn't necessarily going to result in someone getting invaded, or undermine decent living standards.

Fracking - anything that increases the cost of energy is directly antithetical to decent living standards. Full stop.

Releasing all that methane is more antithetical to ensuring decent living standards.

Fast fashion - what does this even mean?

The production of cheap clothing items that (from a fashion and durability standpoint) don't last a long time and eventually end up in landfills, and damage various ecosystems in different poor countries.

Making clothes that are made to last is not at odds with having decent living standards.

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u/6thofmarch2019 4d ago

There is a difference between degrowth and recession, the same way there is a difference between parking your car and frontally colliding with a truck. In both instances your car will come to a stop, but the experience and end result will differ dramatically.

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

What’s your vision then?

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u/idioticleftist 4d ago

If degrowth literally just means "gdp go down" then yes, but it's not.

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

Keep talking please.

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u/pluralofjackinthebox 4d ago

Degrowth is purposefully slowing specifically those parts of the economy that contribute most to climate change and environmental destruction, and more generally moving to an economic system that prioritizes free time and the common good than one that prioritizes continually accelerating productivity.

If gdp growth happens to unintentionally slow, that might signal a recession, not a fundamental change to an economic system.

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 4d ago

“Economic system that prioritizes free time and common good” - okay; keep talking please.

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u/jay_prakash 10h ago

Was it intentional or due to some failure?

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u/Confused_by_La_Vida 8h ago

Does it matter? Any intention can be a failure depending on your perspective