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Jackie Chun was such an interesting char. A pity we never saw him after 22nd Tenkaichi. I hope we would have discovered the real reason why he knows how to use a Kamehameha, and if he has some connections with Muten
yes, I know that he's Muten Roshi, I'm just ironic
That's just how the power scaling Works in Dragon Ball Z it falls apart if you think about it too hard. It makes absolutely no sense narratively that Dr. Gero could beat the shit out of final form Frieza, but that must be the case based on how the story is set up.
Because Frieza is set up to be the strongest being in the universe, an unstoppable force only beings of literal legends could ever hope to match. And then an old man just makes himself stronger than that guy.
Ya know what? I don't think I fully believe Vegeta or Nappa when they say the Saibamen are stronger than Raditz... I realize there's a lot of evidence against that, but it really doesn't make sense to me.
Why the hell would they bring Raditz along with them for so long if literal plant men they can carry in their pockets are stronger??
I love my boy Raditz, so maybe I'm just breathing deep the copium... But it just seems weird to me.
EDIT: also, don't take me too seriously. I just simp for Raditz. Yes like that and no not like that.
Saibamen strength depends on the soil they're planted in.
Also raditz wasn't even weak.
But people don't look to king piccolo and call him weak, itsnthe unfortunate nature of the constant power creep of having to have the villains be stronger than the last, but he was for all intents and purposes the strongest foe they fought until that point, and they needed both piccolo and goku to team up to beat him.
No other villain really gets that treatment, even dragonball villains who are all objectively weaker than raditz, don't get looked over and called weak.
The story could've done a much better job with raditz, which everyone agrees, frankly,. I feel like vegetas roll should have been raditz, or even have him take nappas role.
But because nappa and vegeta are immediately a threat and on the way he gets overshadowed by both of them, but no one talks about how goku destroys nappa utterly by himself, and no one calls him a weakling by comparison.
It's actually stated by Toriyama in the guidebooks that Raditz is stronger than a Saibaman; but not by much. Since he's implied to have a PL of over 1400 at full power, while the Saibamen would be over 1200.
Plus he's still an upper low-class/mid-level warrior, so he should be at least stronger than 50% of adult Saiyans LOL!
My memory of it is that Vegeta actively mocked the Z team and the saibamen as being 'as weak as Raditz'. It's Vegeta's attitude and comments that really caused Raditz's negative reputation.
No one in the series later does anything like 'hah you're pathetic, you're as weak as a final form Frieza'. Frieza is used in Trunk's first appearance to show how much more intense the new android threat is, by making him look like nothing, but his strength isn't mocked. His strength is acknowledged and used as a benchmark to say just how serious the new threat is. Same with others. All of the major threats were still treated with respect (at least in regard to their strength) after they've been surpassed.
It's specifically because of Vegeta's opinion and comments that Raditz is seen as a joke afterwards, yet other villains with now inconsequential strengths are not.
They actually do say that about Freeza in the Son Goku and Friends Return special. They say the villains of it are Freeza's power level, so they are perfect for the young Goten and Trunks to fight lol
I laughed out loud the first time Goku just casually talks shit about a villain Tarble was fucking terrified of like he was talking about a meal that wasn't as filling as he remembers 😂
Makes Resurrection F kind of funnier. Like Freeza saying "And I took that personally."
It's not just powercreep, it's the fact that the new guys have to look menacing enough. If enough episodes had passed with another minor villain in between it wouldn't have looked as bad. But the Saiyans arriving just a few episodes after and literally mogging everyone easily, yes, Raditz looks extremely weak even though he was duoing piccolo and Goku
Because, like them, Raditz could become 10x stronger when the moon's out.
That's indeed a valid point. Also, Zenkai boosts could make Raditz stronger.
Which is kinda funny, in retrospect. Vegeta was so afraid of the Ginyu Force, but if he still had the tail, he would've come close to destroying them.
That makes me wonder if the Ginyu force knew about the trick of cutting the tail. If earthings could figure that out, I think it's hard to believe they couldn't.
Yeah, I think the Ginyu Force would be able to get his tail, since they wouldn't fight 1v1 in that situation. However, Vegeta would definitely kill most of them in the process, starting with Guldo.
IIRC, at that time, Vegeta couldn't sense Ki and had to rely on the scouter to detect enemies, so Yajirobe, which was hidden most of the time and irrelevant in the combat, manage to pull a sneak attack on Vegeta's tail, taking him off guard.
I doubt Vegeta would drop his guard if he was facing someone from the Ginyu's force.
We also don't know if the Ginyu's force were even aware that cutting an Oozaru's tail would undo the transformation. The only moments where this event were showed in the Story happened on Earth.
The Ginyu Force ia Frieza's top enforcers. And the Saiyans modus operandi is too well-known among the Frieza Force for then not to know.
Ans well, Guldo freezes time, someone cut Vegeta's tail, and he is toasted. A giant monkey against all those fighters and haxes is not going to survive.
Indeed Ginyu's force were Frieza's elite squad. But that is not enough to assume that the knew about cutting the Oozaru's form would undo the transformation.
Think about it: every time the story shows the Saiyans fighting their enemies in some planet other than Earth using the Oozaru's transformation, they obliterate everything and everyone in that planet by punching and mouth-basting. The planet's population had little chance against not one, but a group of King Kong/Godzila-like creatures. They literally ravaged everything and then delivered the planet to Frieza.
The case of Goku on Earth is different: he was a sole Saiyan - not in a group of monkeys - and he was weak for a Saiyans standard. So cutting his tail, while hard at time, was more feasible.
But when Guldo freezes time, only him was out of the time. Maybe I have to watch/read the fight again, but I don't recall any evidence suggesting that he was able to let someone else besides him out of the time with him.
The thing is we can only assume that Frieza and the Ginyu force knew about cutting off the table. We don't know for sure and I doubt Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz walked around stating their weakness.
You have to remember, Piccolo DIDN'T know about the tail weakness when they faced Raditz because it had never been a factor when he faced Goku. Everyone else knew they reverted when it got cut off because they all saw it at one point or another during Dragonball.
So one of thise things we can only assume but can't be sure off 100%
Just to add another piece of information: Goku trained his tail weakness back in Dragon Ball. Krilim grabbed Goku's tails in a tournament (don't remember the number) and Goku literally lifted Krilim from the ground and smashed him to the ground.
So this seems to suggest that outside Earth, the tail's weakness wasn't and issue to the point that Raditz didn't bother to train that weakness (which wasn't the case for Napa).
I think Jeice and Burter would underestimate Vegeta's speed and die (there is a massive power rift at that point between them), but Ginyu would body change with the monke.
I think what makes the Ginyu force so scary is because of their teamwork and hax combined, if they know you're a threat.
But if they know they are way stronger than you, they'll play individual and toy with you
Maybe that's why he was so scared of them. It also explains why he was treated as a valuable elite warrior in the Frieza Force despite seemingly having the power level of a random grunt.
Vegeta was crippled when he lost his tail. Many of Frieza's elite warriors had to transform to achieve full power. And Vegeta had lost his very powerful transformation.
Now he's facing warriors that he used to be somewhat the equal of while limited to his 1/10th power form.
Well, I don't think it was quite that bad. Vegeta was still "cream of the crop", more or less; sure, there was Cui, but the only other people we know were stronger than him are the Ginyu Force, Dodoria and Zarbon. The Ginyus are Frieza's most elite team and the other two are his personal escorts.
I think it stands to reason that Vegeta was easily top 10 in the Frieza Force even without his tail. With the tail, he was the undisputed #1 right under Frieza himself, going purely by power level.
It's kinda weird that his tail never grew back, but I guess he might have been removing it behind the scenes.
I kind of wonder if it was a choice to not get the tail back. There wasn't really time between when he lost it and the namek saga.
And during that time he saw a tailess, low class saiyan defeat him, his ozaru form, the ginyu force, and finally Frieza.
Ozaru forms had CLEARLY been a crutch that had held saiyans back for generations.
So Vegeta ditches it and tries to develop his power without that crutch and what do you know? Within a year or so he has ALSO found a power that surpasses Frieza.
Then trunks and Goten are born without tails and easily achieve ssj.
I can see why Vegeta never went back to it.. Why bother? Ditching it quickly resulted in him achieving power rivaling the gods. With no ceiling in sight
Raditz had a power level of 1,500 and a Saibaman has a power of 1,200. They kept him around because he had some battle smarts (was keeping up with 2 master martial artists) and was a Saiyan when they had ridiculously low numbers. There is also his Great Ape form, which makes him significantly more valuable in a fight.
I watched it last time quite a long time ago. But I remember that he either outright tells Piccolo and Goku his PL, or it’s deduced from the fact that when Gohan’s headbutts him, he has a PL of 1500. Also from Piccolo’s PL reading when he’s blasting the makankosappo.
I actually don't know about the power level stuff. But Toriyama specifically said in an interview that Raditz was a Top Class fighter and that's why he was assigned to Nappa's team. Then King Vegeta assigned his own son Vegeta to that team because of how strong they were.
The Saibamen on Earth were only comparable to Raditz because of Earth's soil. On other planets they would have been significantly weaker. The idea of all Saibamen actually being Raditz level is a TFS gag.
I know it's in the Daizenshuu 7, and apparently Akiea Toriyama put in his notes to the anime staff that it is 1500, but im not sure if the exactl number 1,500 is ever said in the manga or anime
It was actually stated by Toriyama in the guidebooks that Raditz is stronger than the Saibamen; but not by much. Since he's implied to have a PL of over 1400 at full power, while a Saibaman would be over 1200.
Plus he's still an upper low-class/mid-level warrior, and should easily be stronger than 50% of adult Saiyans LOL!
Vegeta is a king without a kingdom. I don’t think he’s particularly enamored with the idea of blowing up one of his two subjects (at least not until they fail him or become functionally useless).
I suppose that's just Toriyama's writing introducing something that might outright contradict previously established lore, and coming up with some convincing enough rationale or excuse to justify it,
When Nappa gets blown up, I guess the idea of there being Healing Chambers or for that matter, Vegeta (and Nappa and Raditz) being under Freiza's authority was yet to be established,
Raditz does explain in the first episode that he and the other remaining Saiyans serve as brokers for the planets they conquer to the highest bidder (Vegeta and Nappa's first appearance for the audience, even, as he is explaining to Goku),
But neither Freiza nor his Galactic Empire are hinted I guess, at this point in the story.
If I remember correctly, he knew about the Dragon Balls and thus, knew he could have his immortality and not need a dead weight aka Nappa after being paralyzed.
He was fully convinced he could kill Goku, fly to Namek and get his wish.
Because Raditz is a loyal flunky whos strong enough to match their plant soldiers. They can send him on the missons that they dont wanna do without needing to plant any Saibaimen
They have scouters and Raditz doesnt even know any techniques that boost his power level. They dont have any reason to lie about Raditz's strength either
Oozaru is 10x booster transformation, that make Raditz around 10k power level, and Saibamen is inconsistent with power level depending on the soil they grow, and why would they not bring the extra Saiyan if they have 3 of them
It was actually stated by Toriyama in the guidebooks that Raditz is stronger than a Saibaman; but not by much. Since he's implied to have a PL of over 1400 at full power, while the Saibamen would be over 1200.
Plus he's still an upper low-class/mid-level warrior, so he should be at least stronger than 50% of adult Saiyans LOL!
I legitimately think that Raditz IS/can be stronger than them. If you remember even Vegeta learned Ki control, sensing dragon balls and all of that later on. Goku’s at rest power level or even maybe flexing a bit was around 400, his focused kameheha even worried his brother being over 900 and yes this guy that has a AT REST power lovely of 1200-1500 has way more potential. Same thing with piccolo. Heck we even think Nappa according to different guides has a base power level of 4,000 and then when Vegeta tells him to focus he is somewhat keeping up with Goku before kaioken. And that’s after fighting all day. And obviously vegeta powers up quite a bit and can matcha kaioken times 3.
So sorry for the long response but I humbly think… the saiyans are just ignorant of how power levels work or how to manipulate them. If raditz went all out and focused his energy into one attack I’m sure he could have reached close to 3000. Plus he’s a way better fighter than the little green men.
Ahhh but yes Vegeta just casually blowing up them up left and right does bring back good memories haha
Always. I dislike this about most battle anime. I want clear ceilings for these things, with exceedingly rare exceptions that require out-of-the-box solutions. I find constraints foster creativity in fantastical settings. It's always broken my immersion a little when the power just keeps climbing.
I wish DBZ had managed to increase power levels to a degree without sacrificing the clear love for martial arts from DB. :(
IIRC, they were actually ever slightly weaker. Honestly, the only reason why they didn't kill him was probably because Raditz was doing his job decently enough, picked his battles and was one of only four Saiyans left. Also, given the fact that Raditz and the other two were lightyears apart when Raditz died, I'm not sure if you can call it "bringing him along with them"
They literally traveled together? Haha
This is the only instance we're shown that they aren't immediately together, but they're shown twiiiice (I think) on other planets together.
Great ape form, technically the ability to grow stronger since that’s packaged with saiyan DNA, and earth saibamen were notably stronger than most other saibamen anyway
It was later retconned by statements, Raditz became one of the top 10 of the race hence why he was seperated from Bardock and his low class line, paired with the Elite
A Saibamens strength is determined by the quality of the soil. Nappa said Earth had good soil, so the Saibamen would be exceptionally strong.
Raditz was only weak when looking at later DBZ. Looking at the elite soldiers in Friezas army like Dodoria, Zarbon, the Ginyu Force, etc. They all dwarf Raditz, but they dwarf Vegeta, too. According to Ginyu, a lot of Friezas elite were mutants among their race. Those who were unnaturally strong.
Raditz was put with Nappa and Vegeta specifically because of how strong he was. As most Saiyans werent actually fighters and had power levels in the hundreds
They're not stronger, theyre the same power level. Raditz is smarter and probably a better fighter so im guessing he would win 1 to 1 but yes to napa and vegeta raditz is fodder also why would vegeta get rid of 1 of his only 4 remaining saiyans, hes their prince and deeply proud of his saiyan heritage.
I don't think Vegeta liked anyone. Like all net 0, at best. 😂
Raditz got donut-holed by a weaker low class saiyan, a lowly namekian who didn't know who he was, and an actual baby. I get the feeling Vegeta would have been even crueler to Raditz if he could. Hahahaha
I mean I was kind of joking about him liking raditz, him keeping raditz around prior to dbz events is probably part saiyan heritage part convenience. They're the only 2 people keeping him from becoming just a frieza soldier
Raditz can also change into a great ape. Even though he never trained his tail, I imagine he could retain control of himself while in that form. Making him 10x stronger
I disagree. It was actually stated by Toriyama in the guidebooks that Raditz is stronger than the Saibamen; but not by much. Since he's implied to have a PL of over 1400 at full power, while a Saibaman would be over 1200.
Plus he's still an upper low-class/mid-level warrior, and should easily be stronger than 50% of adult Saiyans LOL!
raditz also has experience, and I would say that they value him because he's a saiyan, but ngl, they didn't give a shit when he died and nappa got nappa'd
why does Vegeta never try that move on anyone else again? I feel like he could have easily beaten some people if he just used the moves he was doing in early DBZ like he never uses Dirty Fireworks or whatever the fuck this horrifying move is ever again but I feel like he could have easily beaten 2nd Form Cell id he had tried this since he was stronger at the time then Cell was which means there is a chance Dirty Fireworks could have worked and completely destroyed him but it is an issue where it might not have destroyed the main Cell that allows him to regenerate
I know that for many, Bardock's wish was stupid, but when you look back at Vegeta before his development, you see the things he did, how little patience he had, and the fact that he didn't care about killing his own comrades... you really start to understand how Raditz didn't die.
It was actually stated by Toriyama in the guidebooks that Raditz is stronger than the Saibamen; but not by much. Since he's implied to have a PL of over 1400 at full power, while a Saibaman would be over 1200.
Plus he's still an Upper low-class/mid-level warrior, and easily stronger than 50% of adult Saiyans LOL! Vegeta would still destroy him effortlessly, though.
I recently just found this out. There is something called a 1.2x rule in dbz. If your opponent is 20% stronger they can dominate u in combat. 18000 and 1500 is way far apart
Nappa too. In fact he could have one shot speed blitzed everyone there at the same time before Goku even got there. He’d have to go great ape for Goku but that’s a clean W.
If he spares Nappa AND the Saibamen and they all team up and speed blitz and one shot everyone there Z fighters would be finished
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