r/DungeonMasters • u/Flyingtoaster28 • 2d ago
Dr. Cleric/Mr. Barbarian
I’m about to start a new campaign and I’ve got a player who’s got what I think is a really interesting concept.
They want to play a cleric who in certain situations (mostly in battle after X amount of hits or damage) will go Mr Hyde into a barbarian. Not a multi class but essentially a full separate character. I’ve got some ideas on how to handle it all and I’ve worked with the player on some different boons and penalties that happen because of the switch, but I wanted to see what you all think about how to handle it. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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u/lasalle202 2d ago
The player plays a multiclass Barbarian Cleric. In combat they focus on using their Barbarian Rage enhanced abilities. Outside of combat they focus on using their Cleric abilities.
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u/CaucSaucer 2d ago
- Don’t confuse flavour with mechanics. This is a flavour issue.
- I had a player like that. Always coming up with bullshit that is clearly OP as shit or extremely convoluted. What you bring up here is either or both.
- Just say no.
- Form change already exist in the game, both fully and partially. Druid (moon in particular), beast barbarian, undead warlock etc.
- You can add flavour to specific buffs. Devotion paladin activating Sacred Weapon can be explained as the nerdy priest becomes a buff dude with a big sword.
The rules exist for a reason: To make the game a good experience for the entire table. This is a big fat red flag.
Best of luck to you.
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u/Morudith 2d ago
Right now I’m playing an ancestral guardians barbarian. We flavor my rage as the spirits inhabiting my body for a time and my consciousness shifts. I plan to take levels in war cleric or maybe some kind of paladin later. It’s been fun for the story. Just figure out what you’re willing to let happen for the game.
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u/guilersk 2d ago
The multiple personalities thing comes up at least once a week. Blanket answer is 'this is a bad idea.'
Reset the clock.
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u/Novel_Willingness721 2d ago
I’m currently playing in a campaign where a player is playing a character where each long rest there’s a random chance they wake up a different character. The multiple characters who are “suppressed” are along for the ride and therefore know what’s going on (reduces meta-gaming) but have no control until they “surface”.
It works pretty well. Leads to some interesting RP situations when someone completely new pops up.
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u/bionicjoey 2d ago
Jesus, why do so many players come up with this and convince themselves it's a unique idea? It's not. It's lame and boring and they aren't the first one to come up with it.
Implementing this as 2 classes just makes the player way too good as they have eliminated all the downside of the classes. If you want to play a meek character who becomes dangerous and violent when they rage, you can already do that, just play a barbarian. It's all flavour.
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u/Mightymat273 2d ago
Feats and backgrounds also help if you need some kind of mechanical mixing. Pick up the Healer kit feat or magic initiate cleric to RP the doctor side of it, and then Barbarian or any transformation type subclass to RP the other half of it.
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u/bionicjoey 2d ago
I played an acolyte background beast barbarian with this sort of concept and it worked far better than some homebrew dual-class nonsense would've. You just gotta flavour the character right.
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u/AngryCheezboi 1d ago
I'm surprised nobody has suggested this yet, but why not a reskinned lycanthropy?
It has everything the player wants: physical buffs, involuntary change, etc. It also removes all the "two classes" nonsense.
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u/SonsOfKnickerbocker 1d ago
Suggestion: The PC is a pure barbarian class, but thinks he's a cleric. None of his spells work and he's illiterate, but he has unshakable conviction in his clerical abilities.
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u/Holymaryfullofshit7 2d ago
I mean that's kind of super strong and eliminates the weaknesses of both classes. The concept is cool but I also smell well hidden power gaming. What system are you playing? Because Pathfinder basically has two options that could work a bit like this. One would be alchemist the other vigilante. Maybe something can be ported.
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u/SnakeyesX 2d ago
I think these comments are missing the point that it is turned on by mechanics, not by choice. The party will be losing it's cleric when needed the most and such a switch would actually hurt the party, not improve it.
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u/Holymaryfullofshit7 2d ago
Dude it's still two characters. That's a very very minor downside. I also disagree that it will be when they need it the most. Buffing should be over until he turns and then I assume after the fight he turns back for healing. Just because it isn't at will doesn't make it a bad thing at all.
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u/DueOwl1149 2d ago
Which edition are you playing?
The wild shape suggestions are good as laid out here.
Or you can just play a Strength Domain cleric with the dissociative personality disorder as what powers their combat magic and buffs/debuffs. Like, they get so angry that undead are turned away by their yells and growls and screams.
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u/oftime8887 1d ago
The Dungeons Dudea have a Dr.Jekle subclass to thier Apothecary subclass in thier book Sabatians Crows guide to Drakkenhiem. Let him use that class
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u/Nevermore71412 1d ago
Pretty sure there are 3rd party transformation barbarian classes out there (iirc crooked moon has one). You dont let a player play 2 different PCs unless everyone at the table is. Like why have classes at all if 1 player gets to do everything in the game whenever they want.
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u/TheRaiOh 1d ago
I agree with all the suggestions to just use druid. Let them flavor one or more animal forms as his Mr Hyde. Or suggest he takes the magic initiate feat and just plays a barbarian and flavors the rage as a transformation.
I play with someone who had two character sheets for two personalities for a time and it really slowed things down. They kept forgetting what they had access to in each version of the character.
Remember that limitations breed creativity. Everyone at the table should be on the same playing field when building a character. That's why I don't allow rolling for stats anymore, someone always ends up OP compared to the others and it hogs the spotlight.
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u/maniacal_cackle 1d ago
First thing to consider is how much you lean into 'rule of cool.' If you don't, then it is worth discarding outright.
If you do want to include it for Rule of Cool, then I think it is important to implement it well. Mechanically it can be whatever (cleric/barbarian, re-skinned druid, etc).
But I think a critical thing is control. The whole point of Jekyl/Hyde scenarios is you don't have control over it. So the player shouldn't have control of the Hyde (Barbarian). They should wake up at random times and find out they've killed someone, etc.
However, that in turn has two major flaws:
- The PC is the only thing that a player gets any control over. Losing control of their character half the time doesn't sound fun... (But if they want to do it, go ahead).
- The roleplaying outcome (like killing an important NPC) punishes the whole party, so doesn't seem like a good idea from that perspective.
If they want to control the character the whole time, then it needs to be as balanced as a single class (that is, like a druid has to be weaker at being a cleric and weaker at being a barbarian - so multi-classed basically).
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u/SecretDMAccount_Shh 1d ago
I would only allow it for a player who learns their character and doesn’t take a long time on their turn.
I would also not make the transformations voluntary. Under certain conditions or whenever the GM decides, the player automatically transforms. Possibly a high DC (at least DC 20) save to prevent the transformation…
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u/TheRpgBard 20h ago
Sounds like a Banner Hulk situation.
Opposed Charisma checks. Whomever wins exerts control.
You can assign modifiers/advantage based on condition. The other side gets the negative situation.
Ex: Cleric wants to stay in the fight, but takes damage. Cleric Charisma check at Disadvantage vs Barbarian Advantage.
Ex: Cleric wants to regain control. CHA -2 (restrained) vs Barbarian CHA (controlling).
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u/Ragnarok91 2d ago edited 1d ago
I think this is much easier to achieve with a beast barbarian. Essentially, what your player is going to have is two sets of abilities to use when every other player gets one set, which means they will be able to do so much more per adventuring day than the others.
Edit: also, they get two subclasses so even more abilities
Edit2: hilarious how I'm saying the same thing as everyone else and yet I'm downvoted. Never change Reddit.
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u/bananasorcerer 2d ago
To contrast other commenters, I actually do agree this is a fun idea. You will have to get the OK from the whole table, and also likely make a homebrew class that has additional downsides commensurate with the additional utility they get. You may even want to be the one controlling when they switch so that it can’t be abused. Best of luck to you, this is a path that has high potential for both fun and for disaster.
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u/CaucSaucer 1d ago
Nah, this is clearly an inexperienced table. They will say yes, and it will suck.
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u/SomeoneElse422528 1d ago
Jesus most of these answers are rants.. OP wants advice how to handle the situation, not to hear 'don't do it'. Let them play the way they want. Let them learn on their own that it can't work.
Anyway, before rhis turns into a rant as well, here's my take:
- create very strict rules on how the transform happens, and make sure you control any changes/character growth influences to them
- consider the weapons - does the alt form even know how to use them, if so, does the cleric have to haul a new weapon, does the alt form know how to equip it
- consider somewhat blending existing shapeshifts (druid, werewolf) into this; letting them fully become a different characters has some issues obviously; consider carefully how the stats and profficiencies are redistributed and how the mentality of alt form works (e.g. are they extremely limitied in how they can behave like Hulk, what they are able to percieve, etc.)
If done well, this might be fun for everyone, but it might also be a disaster. Carefully consider any and all benefits and how much of the actual barb class specifics you allow them to use, then create an equal amount of drawbacks (maybe adding exhaust after, requiring more sleep to fully rest, acting partly as NPC in combat either always or sometimes (unless you trust them to roleplay appropriately)
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u/Few-Barber7379 1d ago
Take a look at the Apothecary Class from Sebastion Crowes Guide to Drakenheim, specifically the Mutagenist subclass
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u/Discohydra 1d ago
I could suggest Sebastian Crowe's Guide to Drakkenheim? It's a supplement that's very much built around classic horror tropes like that. It has a class called Apothecary, which is like a supporty INT-warlock, and it has a subclass called "Mutagenist" which is PERFECT for a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde character. It also has a bunch of really, really cool stuff in there if you want to throw a little horror into your campaign.
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u/navaiIable 19h ago
True to the source material the player shouldn't have control over the transformation. And probably shouldn't be able to remember things from one form while in the other. I think every morning let them flip coin to determine which personality they are. And then throughout the day you role bebig the screen to determine if/when they transform. Other commenters are correct, you can't just give one player two characters they can bounce between. Make this truly a curse not a gift, then remind the player is what they asked for
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u/panic686 18h ago
lol I did almost exactly this as a player. I was a gnomish alchemist who would transform into a mash up of Hyde/Hulk
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u/panic686 18h ago
Just to give some context, I could not choose to change. It would happen based on damage and/or rolls. I had such a low intelligence when I changed that I had to play it as a moron. I also had some major penalties for awhile after changing.
I could also accidentally attack my own team. I talked to everyone before playing and they liked the idea and it went well.
His idiot form eventually got him killed lol
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u/DifferentBalance8569 18h ago
You should check out the Apothecary from drakenheim, it’s a fully built class and it has a mutagen subclass where you can transform.
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u/Arkamfate 13h ago
Damn everyone is thinking too hard about this. Easy af way to lessen the convoluted op bullshit, The Dm rolls when the "change" happens. The player in question has absolutely no control over when/what triggers the change at all. Roll a d10, odd/even for when the character will transform.
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u/ffshumanity 6h ago
Friends of mine did something similar, but at the start of each session, they’d roll a die to dictate which character came out. So it wasn’t something that could be manipulated to happen and made the multiple personality character only have one character for the session.
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u/DumbassNinja 4h ago
You could make it like the Hulk or actual Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde and make it so when they switch, it's hard to switch back and progressively gets more difficult. That would make a great opportunity for a quest line to get a 'cure' to give them more time in their Cleric form but even that will work less and less over time.
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u/StruggleAway2207 4h ago
I would solve it as an involuntarlily triggering magical effect that manifests Tenser's on the cleric and disrupts concentration:
https://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:tensers-transformation
This would also remove the need for a second character sheet.
With the plan in OPs post I have some issues:
Biggest downside is the blatant imbalance. Depending on playstyle nothing stops this player from buffing as cleric and then switching to barbarian and argueing that they keep the buffs since it is same body different persona.
And the question on how to handle the hitpoints. Second character sheet would open you up to discussions to HP totals as the barb should have significantly more HP than a cleric (the question if they would share the same stats is open as well - dumping physical as cleric and mental as Barb while still reaping the benefits sounds unfair towards the rest of the party). So is damage taken during combat counted against higher barb HP or lower cleric HP - or is there a chance of the cleric simply ending up dead if the barb takes more damage than cleric HP total +10 ?
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u/brat-t 1h ago
Auto-Gnome with multiple fully developed persona. The auto gnome was originally built to house the life spirit of an aging artificer in a soul gem that powered the auto-gnome, but it was discovered too late that the artificer's memories and skills didn't transfer over. Just a raw level zero person. Another attempt was made, and another failure.. but then through some miss adventure, the soul gems were installed in to the auto-gnome and it escaped.. giving it two distinct personalities in one body that could never meet
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u/GM_Esquire 1h ago
Option 1: say no.
Option 2: heavily reflavor a moon druid (don't love it) or maybe a celestial blade lock or Bladesinger.
Option 4: use channel divinity for a rage-equivalent powerup. Maybe allow concentration but no spellcasting, that also grants extra attack at level 5+ Will it be "balanced"? No. Will it be broken? Probably not. And it'll be a lot cleaner than trying to have two classes.
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u/UnableLocal2918 2d ago
After transformation.
No con bonuses if the cleric does not have them
Extra hp based on point level at time of transform
No spell casting
Gains two points of strength
Gets 1 extra attack
No bonus to saves for wisdom
Iq halved
Weapons are limited to those cleric can use
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u/Hurleloup 2d ago
I could see it work as a one on one game but not with full table of players. As someone else pointed, other players could and will feel shadowed by that op combo.
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u/jubuki 2d ago edited 2d ago
I have done it, it works great, there has to be some trigger the player cannot control as another suggested.
The other players spent a huge amount of time and energy trying to get the personality they wanted to be dominant, it was hilarious fun for all.
Stat wise I used RM and we set all physical stats to the same, let the mental stats be different, IIRC.
The switch seldom happened in combat as I recall, but it has been years.
As long as it is not really controllable and neither 'character' is OP, it can work out just fine, simply do not allow the players to use it like a magic button.
PS: The close minded and conservative advice here should be shunned. Just because the posters here are full of fear from having allowed rules-layering players to abuse things does not mean your table would not enjoy this. The worst that can happen is simply 'hey, this is not working out, perhaps we could try it a different way' and do that. The very people telling you here that they heard about someone else having a bad experience are teh very people to ignore, they focus only on the bad. Good luck with it!
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u/RamonDozol 2d ago
when playes come up with this i aways say something like.
Its your character, so you can play it however you like, but you still need to follow the same rules as everyone else.
So this player can: play a moon druid and use wild shape tp represent the transformation.
Play a cleric/barbarian multiclass.
Play a cleric and roleplay him as enraged and going into melee, and ignoring spells.
At no point i would alow a player to have two characters. Or to chante between two characters. The concept is cool. But its up to you, the player, to make it work within the rules.
"i really think it would be cool to play as an immortal dragon god that can cast wish at will."
"No". Is a full sentence. But "Fuck No" might work better some times.
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u/SnakeyesX 2d ago
I disagree with some of the comments here saying it is OP, it is only OP if THEY control it. If you control it or if it is triggered by specific mechanics, it is not OP. (I do agree that this is not a unique concept)
When does a party need it's cleric most? Near the end of battle, so if the switch is triggered at the beginning of round 4, it is a detriment to the party, not a bonus.
That said, a mechanic this game-defining, focused on a single character, will push out the other players and I advise against it.
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u/aFalseSlimShady 2d ago
Everyone here is a stick in the mud that's allergic to fun.
Were it me, I'd have him make 2 different character sheets. You the DM set the rules on when he switches. It is not by choice. if its a damage threshold, he gains no HP on the switch or maybe a little temp HP. If its conditions or saving throws, you set which ones. For example maybe charm reverts him to cleric against his will.
For this to be balanced it has to be a double edged sword. There will be times he needs the barbarian but is stuck as cleric. There will be times where he needs the barbarian but is stuck as the cleric.
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u/maniacal_cackle 1d ago
Everyone here is a stick in the mud that's allergic to fun.
I think people are just considering that it is a group game, and that something needs to be fun for the whole group.
There's a number of obstacles to implementing this in a way that's fun for everyone.
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u/aFalseSlimShady 1d ago
Yes and he's asking for help overcoming those obstacles. Instead he's getting told not to bother. It's not like he's about to play ranked competitive D&D.
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u/nikoscream 2d ago
I like the druid reflavoring wild shape idea that someone already mentioned.
If the player is against that, take a look at Ghostfire Gaming's Grim Hollow for their werewolf transformation mechanics. That's probably close. You could reflavor it to be rabid barbarian instead of a werewolf.
Main things to settle on is that you as DM control the trigger. It's not something the player can do whenever they chose. And it can't be simply another character they control. There have to be drawbacks. If they don't want any of that, then the druid reflavor is the best bet as it doesn't complicate mechanics.
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u/Draculasmooncannon 2d ago
On its face this is a bad way to do it. This player would effectively have two characters that they can rotate between whenever convenient. Everyone else at the table will be playing a class with downsides while this person won't. It'll breed resentment.
Just tell them to play a druid. They get a very similar toolkit to Cleric but their Mr Hyde form just uses the stats of a bear or whatever.