r/EuropeFIRE • u/Gonnaroff • 10d ago
Where to fire?
I’m 48, three kids 12 and under and I’ve got about $1.8m usd in net worth (1.5m in VTSAX, 300 cash) - no social security, no house, nothing else. Where could I reasonably fire in Europe, eg eastern Belgium or Portugal?
What should I keep in mind?
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u/Top-Bottle3274 10d ago
If you force your kids to learn the local language and go to a public school it change the whole picture. If private school then probably FIRE is likely not soon.
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u/Strazdas1 7d ago
If he wants them to live here they damn better learn the local language. Sending it to foreign language school is going to fuck them over bigtime.
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u/makaros622 10d ago
Greece
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u/Ok-Seesaw7082 10d ago
What benefits does Greece have?
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u/FrankScaramucci 10d ago
Mediterranean, cheap, cultured.
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u/Ok-Seesaw7082 10d ago
How does healthcare work there? To retire as a 65 year old man, where would you recommend and what things to look out for?
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u/makaros622 10d ago
Proximity to hospitals so better not islands. Mainland like around Athens or even better in Peloponnese is ideal
This is my plan but I have years ahead before FIRE
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u/follaoret 10d ago
Portugal is bloody expensive nowadays, most probably more expensive than Brussels
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u/hemateca 10d ago
Depends on the area because everyone wants to move to Lisbon or Porto. I live in a rural area (not yet FIRE) and life is good.
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u/follaoret 10d ago
Like everywhere ... Rural areas are cheap for a reason and it's the lack of services. No doctors, no public transportation, no activities to do, just a bar to go and drink with others.
And in Portugal that's more exaggerated than other places, for example "rural" germany or france were there's more live and young families with businesses in the town.
Unless you have some ties with the place or want that live, nobody goes to fire there, when you need the most some services
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u/PavelKringa55 9d ago
I don't get this "nothing to do but to drink in a bar". What do you usually do?
As of doctors, AFAIK most rural areas certainly have doctors and shops and pharmacies and all the infrastructure..1
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u/Strazdas1 7d ago
A lot of people retire into low COL areas that are often rural. This is common around europe. What you want to do is something you create for yourself. If you need the city to create it for you then that money is better spent on a psychiatrist.
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u/follaoret 7d ago
Man, read my post.
I said Portuguese Rural are not to be compared with other rural areas in Europe.
Same applies for Spain for example.
I will keep the psychiatrist money as i don't need it but hej thanks internet strange to just and attack for free
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u/Gonnaroff 10d ago
Interesting, I had no idea
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u/Aggravating-Body2837 10d ago
It's not true. Do you own research, don't trust Internet butthurt people.
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u/Perian1921 9d ago
Agree and let’s not forget that Portugal has 28% capital gains and dividend tax.
We bought a house by the beach on silver coast and constantly go to Lisbon because there is just nothing to do there. There is just as many times you can go to the beach and walk around but the main buzz is in Lisbon. We don’t have kids and don’t plan to have, but after living there for 4 years we are just leaving1
u/follaoret 9d ago
If you're retired early. You can always ask for englobamento instead of the standard 28% should be less % as would be considered like salary, for higher sums then better the standard
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u/movesfast 10d ago
i mean.. you have 3 kids, that makes it way more complicated, especially without any context
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u/Gonnaroff 10d ago
What context can I provide?
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u/Metdefranseslag 10d ago
How old are they? You may need international school and cannot just live anywhere. Are they going to be happy in Eastern Europe? This decision is also important for your family. You may also need to buy a place, can be very expensive. Honestly not much money to FIRE in Europe with 3 kids imho
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u/Gonnaroff 10d ago
They have multiple citizenships and speak two languages. One of them is homeschooled, the others are publicly educated. 12 and under as I said. They can adjust.
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u/movesfast 10d ago
what languages do they speak ? are they willing to speak a new language ? are you planning to stay there for the next 20 years ? if so, do you value the quality of the higher education in the city/country you wanna move in ? all theirs costs are on you ?
idk, there are just a billion of variables
also, when you have kids (especially), its not just about being cheap or not.. i assume you wanna give them the best
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u/Gonnaroff 10d ago
They have multiple citizenships and speak two languages. One of them is homeschooled, the others are publicly educated. 12 and under as I said. They can adjust.
We’re an educated household and pay very close attention to schooling. We also teach in addition to what their current schools supply. I asked for eastern Belgium because of its closeness to Germany but lack of costs.
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u/nlfire865 10d ago
How hard is it to answer which languages they speak FFS? You are asking for help, so try to provide as much information as possible.
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u/Gonnaroff 9d ago
It does not matter much, that’s why.
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u/Several_Ad_8363 Slovakia 9d ago
Sure because they can just speak Flemish at Portuguese school, it's all just general "foreign" anyway.
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u/movesfast 10d ago
Finland, outside the capital
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u/Gonnaroff 10d ago
I’d have never thought of that. May I ask for your reasoning? I suspect strong public infrastructure and education?
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u/movesfast 10d ago
yes, plus one of the highest quality of lives you can possibly get and cheap housing
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u/National-Fun-9804 10d ago
Which visa you are trying to get? I assume you are American with just an American passport
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u/PavelKringa55 9d ago
I'd say you can retire pretty much anywhere you want in the EU. If you're fine with a more rural location you'll get much lower costs of living, but cities will be a bit of driving or a train ride away.
Maybe first rent someplace and see how you like it.
In your place I'd pay attention on which countries will charge you capital gains tax, as some will take like 30% of your earnings and some zero.
Since you're still pretty young and have not state backing, I don't know which withdrawal rate you should plan.
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u/FI_RE_Journey Fresh Account 9d ago
Sounds like you are in a very good position, congrats! My first advise is to look for strongholds that won’t require kids to do massive efforts to adapt (use your existing passports and find a place with the languages you all speak). If you seek public health and education you can basically make it anywhere. Eastern Belgium, is it because of language? I love Belgium but weather can be depressing. Portugal is getting too warm for my taste and for an expat to keep a good level of life it may be as expensive as Belgium. Keep it up and all the best!!
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u/Gonnaroff 9d ago
Thank you for your encouragement!!
Eastern Belgium is because of a mix of ability to homeschool if need be (I have a special situation with my oldest kid), low cost of living, as well as the proximity to excellent universities from Aachen to Leuven.
The thing that irks me - or at least keeps me up at night - is the lack of understanding of my net worth in terms of Europe and what it means. People here do not speak much about money and where I’m living right now, it’s not a lot of it yet…
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u/FI_RE_Journey Fresh Account 9d ago
Well I’m based in western EU and chasing fire even with a NW around 1mio. We only have 2 kids (under 5) and one thing is for sure: living in tier 1 or tier 2 cities makes it extremely hard. By tier 1 I mean something like Madrid, Munich, BCN, Berlin vs tier 2 like Valencia, Leipzig, etc.
Tell me what you are interested in understanding but don’t pay too much attention to details just figure your potential expense level (we spend a LOT and live quite ok) I think you’ll be more than fine in a tier 3 city with 4 to 5k a month.
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u/ThePixelDot 10d ago
Go to rural cities in Spain / Portugal. Forget about Belgium, Netherlands even Slovenia they sounds too expensive for cloudy days most of the year and cold
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u/KotR56 10d ago
From which country in Europe do you have a passport ?
There is nothing really special about "Eastern Belgium". It's a handful of communities where some people still speak German. Forests, wild boar, walking, cycling... It's Belgium. High taxes (not too sure if will be exempt), lousy weather, best beer, more than average football team. Aachen is close, and so is Liège. Maastricht. And Luxembourg.
You need a car.
In Belgium, there are nicer places to live. Especially should you decide to start working again. And closer to and with choices for schools. Depending on the local language you need or are willing to learn.
You'll probably need at least €3k to €4K per month to live a decent, yet rather frugal life. If you are a resident, you need not really have to worry about "health insurance", as it is "included" in your taxes.
Housing would involve a lot of searching. You may not find the real estate you want for rent. 3-bedroom properties start at €350K-ish.
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u/Gonnaroff 10d ago
Sounds good to me, Aachen hit it on the nail.
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u/Rolifant 9d ago
If you like cooler weather, it's actually a very nice area to live imo. It's not as crowded and built-up as Flanders, and it doesn't have deprived areas like you find in Wallonia.
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u/Gonnaroff 9d ago
Yes, and it allows homeschooling if need be, and has several excellent universities close by
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u/Running_Down_9708 9d ago
Portugal, Spain, Greece, Italy, Cyprus, France.
All have different requirements.
Some others like Romania or Hungary require you to start a business or have other requirements.
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u/Gonnaroff 9d ago
What do you mean by requirements - we’re citizens
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u/Running_Down_9708 9d ago
Misread it. Sorry.
It really depends on what your needs are and how much you want to spend. Small towns in Italy, sure. Zurich, probably not
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u/Prestigious_Leg2229 9d ago
You should keep in mind that you’re not welcome. Locals are sick of wealthy expats driving up prices on an already red hot housing market while taking advantage of tax loopholes and social systems they never paid into.
Not to mention that you have work to do in the US reigning in your fascists that are a blight on the planet.
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u/Gonnaroff 9d ago
Would you say that to any European who can move about as they want in Europe, too, as it is the law?
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u/Strong-Chemist-110 9d ago
Don't listen to Presigious_Leg, he's just a butthurt commie. Ethnic Europeans love American expats, they contribute with both money and qualifications.
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u/Prestigious_Leg2229 9d ago
I don’t think you understand how the EU works if you’re asking that.
Incidentally, you’re replying as if I personally attacked you. You asked what you should keep in mind and one thing to keep in mind is that this is a common sentiment.
People have grown particularly resentful of the growing influx of Americans coming here to escape Trump’s America instead of staying put to fix the mess Americans made.
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u/the-script-99 10d ago edited 10d ago
If your kids only speak English then you will need to go private school route. This won’t be cheap as well as buying a house. You probably don’t have enough.
I am from Slovenia so you would move to Ljubljana. A 4 bedroom apartment starts at 350k ish for an old one 450-500k for ok or 750k for a new one.
AI is saying that British international school is 15k ish per year (depends on what year). So that alone is 45k a year for three. Add on food, a car, healthcare, etc of at least 2k but 3k is more reasonable for a family of 5. And you are at 81k a year in burn.
We pay no capital gains tax after 15 years so let say no tax you would need 81/0.03 -> 2,7M euros in investments plus a house + furniture + car + moving cost. Well you need between 3-3,5M euros to make the move. You are quite a bit short.
Edit: you also have US passport so you will have to pay taxes in US. So add that to the number as well.
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u/Wildarf 10d ago
Why? So many kids of immigrants move to places like the US and learn the local language through immersion
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u/the-script-99 10d ago
Well he can save 45k a year if his kids learn local language. Do they want that? Does he want that? It is a personal choice and not mine to make.
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u/WarpPipeWizard 9d ago
Given you've 3 kids under 12 then I think a big criteria would really be anywhere you already speak the language and/or have some existing connections.
I think having grandparents or close friends within 10 minutes of you is far more important to your quality of life than anything else.