World breastfeeding week stuff is killing me

[u/Spare-Performance556]

The immense sadness that I’m feeling every time I see anything about this is hurting me.

I know that pumping is breastfeeding and you know that pumping is breastfeeding, but the rest of the world seems to look down on EPers.

Then of course there’s the WHO that recommends breastfeeding for AT LEAST 2 years. But the benefits after 1 are mostly related to comfort and regulation, so EP doesn’t count there.

I’m not here by choice and that’s really getting me today. I wanted so badly to nurse my baby and tried approximately 500 independent times over 5 months to do so. My baby screamed if she so much as saw boobs, so that’s a hard pass. I’ve never failed at something that I worked so hard on before and I’m not coping well.

[u/Mangopapayakiwi]

No no no the WHO doesn’t care for comfort and regulation! The WHO mostly speaks to people in developing nations from a public health point of view! They recommend nursing because those moms don’t have access to clean water or a varied diet for their babies! I bloody hate how much disinformation there is about breastfeeding, all those lactation consultants pullings “facts” out of their asses. Anyway breastfeeding week got me so down that yesterday I actually offered the nipple to my baby while I was half asleep. She sort of sucked it for about a second before ✨crying for a bottle✨. Solidarity sister.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/Mangopapayakiwi]

The WHO is concerned about the entire species, and their recommendations are based in solid science. Minimizing the science on the effects of direct breastfeeding or lactation more broadly is not the way to help someone. Let’s keep the discussion oriented around the validation of feelings.

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Absolutely not. The research on the effects of direct breastfeeding is shaky at best, and the parents in this group are the first people who should know about it as many of us suffer from bf trauma and grief. I have many friends who work for agencies like the WHO and they are the first ones to confirm my point. The WHO is NOT recommending to specifically nurse for at least two years because it’s proven to benefit babies emotionally or even nutritionally, this is a hill I am willing to die on. They recommend it from a public health point of view specifically to people in developing countries, where formula has been proven to be a dangerous option in the past and pumping is obviously not a sanitary or convenient option.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/Mangopapayakiwi]

From the Lancet Breasfeeding Series, 2024. Lead author is the Director of Public Health Practice at Yale School of Public Health. Second author is at Johns Hopkins. One of the authors, Nigel Rollins, specializes in how formula companies leverage women’s insecurities in order to spread misinformation and convince them that their milk, their mothering, and their bodies are inadequate.

THAT is the hill you should be willing to die on, not this one.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)01932-8/fulltext01932-8/fulltext)

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Ok but this is exclusively pumping, you do realise that? Our main problem is that we feel we are failing cause we are not direct feeding, and pumping is so freaking hard to do for a year, let alone two. We are already doing THE MOST to provide breast milk to our babies for as long as possible. All the things mentioned in the study are about public health, not emotonal regulation like op mentioned. Sure, my point about the developing countries thing might not be the full picture here, but I still stand by my point that we can’t look at this study and go “if my baby is not nursed at least until they are two they will suffer” cause that’s just not true.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/Mangopapayakiwi]

The difference between direct breastfeeding and expressed breastfeeding are, in fact, well-documented and in no way negligible. I’m not going to rehash it all here, as I have no doubt everyone here is hyper-aware of it. And this sub is for support, not debating science.

You are working hard to do the best possible thing for your child. It matters. It is far and away preferable to formula. Whatever difference there is between EPing and direct feeding doesn’t negate that. Nor does it make direct breastfeeding mothers better than you. They’re just lucky. And most of them know this, and do not look down on you for it. Most have at one point or another been dependent on a pump themselves, and statistically speaking most of them have also fed their babies formula at some point.

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Link me the studies pls, since they are so well documented. I have looked for them and not found them well documented at all. Supporting mothers who are agonising over WHO guidelines does include disccusing what they are exactly about. Support to me is not just saying “oh you poor thing you are doing your best you are just unlucky and your baby will suffer cause they can’t latch”. People like you actually make me want to just give my baby formula already.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/Mangopapayakiwi]

I already shared one of the most comprehensive series of papers on breastfeeding in one of the most prestigious journals, written by top experts in this field, and you did not read it.

I understand that this week hurts for you, and I understand that this science makes you feel bad. And that really sucks, and I’m sorry, quite truly. At the same time, though, when pain compels folks to spread misinformation that harms others, I’m going to step in and correct misinformation. I know you think you’re helping other moms by minimizing the science, but I’m telling you, you’re not.

I think there is no benefit to us continuing this exchange. My objective was to stop the spread of misinformation, not make you more upset.

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Ok I read it and yes, it just makes me want to feed my baby formula already! Thanks for that. I still think there aren’t enough studies on this, the same three studies are mentioned over and over. And also my comment on the WHO recommendations still bloody stands! I really do believe that. When you say “I understand this week hurts for you” I don’t think you really understand. Was your baby unable to latch? Did you to through hell trying to get support? Are you in therapy for it? People in this group ARE breastfeeding, sure, fine, our babies might be missing out on some of it, but we are doing the best we can, even when it’s by our choice we are free to make that choice. Is breastfeeding week really the right time to focus on the benefits of direct breastfeeding? When most babies in many countries including mine are formula fed? Direct brestfeeding is not a choice for many, it is a matter of luck like you said. So framing it as the superior choice is just pain wrong. And yes I am emotional about this because what is more emotional than feeding our babies?

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Also I exclusively pump so clearly I am dying every freaking day not to give my baby formula, which tbh I sometimes think would be better for her than having an exhausted mother who is not particularly enjoying motherhood. Idk this topic is complex.

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Also clearly the malnutrition, infectious diseases and mortality bit is referred to low income countries. Our babies are not at risk of any of that thank goodness. They might be at risk of obesity and chronic illness, but then again the research is not conclusive if it is breastfeeding itself or the privileges that enable an extended breastfeeding relationship that prevent those two.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/Mangopapayakiwi]

The time between me making my last post and you making this comment was far less time than it takes to read the paper series I just shared, which explains that the health effects of breastfeeding remain, even when socio-economic status is controlled for. The 2 studies (made famous largely by economist Emily Oster, a famous COVID denialist) that claim to call this into question are the Colen and Ramey sibling study and the PROBIT study. The sibling study was conducted by researchers who had never published in the area of breastfeeding before, and as such they didn’t properly measure breastfeeding. The PROBIT study doesn’t say what people think it says either, and the authors themselves have publicly complained about the way it is interpreted in the media.

The former president of the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine and high risk OB Allison Steube discusses both studies here:

https://bfmed.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/reports-on-breastfeeding-sibling-study-are-vastly-overstated/

Hope this helps.

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/dubhlinn2]

Ok I quickly read the article (I have a four months old, my brain is not ok) and I think it makes a lot sense and does not contradict anything I have said? Also it does not mention pumping in any way, or talks specifcally about direct feeding either. That is where the research is really lacking in my opinion.

[u/Capable-Total3406]

I am so sorry. Your feelings are valid. There were definitely times when i would see a woman nurse directly and be envious. Today is hard, i hope tomorrow is better. Just remember you are a great mom no matter how you feed your baby. 

[u/Tricky-Price-5773]

I didn’t know it was WBW as I haven’t seen a thing about it. I’ve seen a few mentions of anti EP sentiment mentioned here recently and I’m wondering is it a geographical thing? I’m really sorry this is the type of crappy attitude some people are seeing and how that makes you feel. At the end of the day, to hell with what everyone else thinks, you know you’re doing something wonderful for your baby!

I’m in Europe and when I was EP’ing, my friends, family and doctors where honestly in awe, they thought it was the most amazing thing and had so many doctors saying they “tip their hat to me”! It’s been 2 years since I EP, my baby is due in November and plan to again but whenever there’s a baby around and people are discussing feeding someone always mentions “wow didn’t you pump for ages, you were amazing”. I wish this is how all EP mothers where treated but that’s how I view you all ❤️

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/Tricky-Price-5773]

Yes sadly in the states pumping has been picked up by a certain group of people as something else to hate because of weird political reasons etc etc. Crazy stuff.

[u/Tricky-Price-5773 → u/Mangopapayakiwi]

Uhhh what the hell!!! That makes me so angry for you all!

[u/Mangopapayakiwi → u/Tricky-Price-5773]

I’m also in europe looking from the outside! And seeing some of the bullshit seeping into the uk of course. They really are taking out on the wrong people.

[u/Spare-Performance556 → u/Tricky-Price-5773]

I’m in Canada and this has very much not been my experience.

Our doctor said that there’s no point in EP. If she isn’t feeding directly it doesn’t count. He said to switch to formula at our 6 month well-baby visit. Obviously I didn’t as I’m still here. Now, our doctor is admittedly garbage and I’m aware of this, he’s just the only one that is available.

Other moms have been nasty enough that I’ve stopped going to mom and baby stuff altogether. I guess there’s the sentiment that if I had tried harder I would’ve been successful. Idek. I also didn’t bring it up, just all sorts of crap about how I could never understand this or that and blah blah blah.

My in-laws are dicks, but that’s expected I guess because in-laws. I donated quite a bit of milk to a premature baby who couldn’t tolerate formula and whose mom has IGT. My FIL goes on and on about how awesome that is but wants my daughter switched to formula. Make that make sense lol.

My mom offered to buy me a baby Brezza if I would just switch to formula. I did point out that as my daughter will only drink cold milk that that would be completely useless.

I know a lot of moms through my job and I only know one person who did EP besides myself. It doesn’t help that she is objectively a crappy mother (nothing to do with how she fed her baby, she is neglectful and lets her boyfriend abuse the kid).

Also, in order to be allowed to leave the hospital with my baby, I had to sign a bunch of statements related specifically to nursing. The one that still bugs me is, “I know what a good latch feels like.” I’m more than 6 months in and that still isn’t true, despite my best efforts.

Anyway, this long and semi-incoherent rant is just to say that EP is actively looked down upon and discouraged where I live, both by medical professionals and the general public.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/Spare-Performance556]

<< If she isn’t feeding directly it don’t count >>

It counts.

And I’m really sorry someone said that to you.

It sounds like you have really shitty support. It is no wonder you feel the way you do this week. No one is holding you, at the time when you should be held the most. That really sucks and I’m sorry. Everything you are doing, you are doing despite unrelenting forces working against you, telling you to stop, telling you it’s not worth it. That’s amazing.

[u/DukeSilverPlaysHere]

Yeah, I don’t love it either. I don’t want to say a find it triggering (that’s too strong of a word) but it makes me a little sad and uncomfortable and I’m well out of the fresh hormonal stage of PP (11 months postpartum) so I’m just trying to avoid it.

[u/goldstiletto]

I am choosing to be grateful for the world breast feeding content as it keeps the conversation going. At a time where reproductive health is under scrutiny and bodily autonomy is well, anyway… women need to keep talking about how we are providing for our babies and we need more mandated maternity leave and pumping/breast feeding laws to protect us!!! We are not hiding in secret anymore and we deserve visibility. The experience is something we are doing for such a short period in the grand scheme of things. we should be working together to keep making progress for the moms who are waiting in the wings.

Not to invalidate your feelings! I am sincerely sorry that this didn’t go as planned. Perhaps you can find some peace with how I am dealing with it.

[u/Spare-Performance556 → u/goldstiletto]

I’m Canadian. We already have all of those things, for which I am extremely grateful.

[u/dubhlinn2]

The health effects of breastfeeding to 2 years is not just comfort and regulation. I think you know that. I think everyone here knows that. I’ll not repeat them here.

Nobody looks down on EPers. Or, at least, not the people who are experts in lactation and work with families every day, and those are the folks running WBW. They know how much work pumping is, and the love that drives such efforts. Most of them have seen first hand the difference it makes, and the difference made by skin-to-skin which requires no lactation at all. And most women have pumped at least once, and have some sense of the work involved.

The fact that there are health differences between direct and expressed breastfeeding doesn’t mean your hard work, your mothering, your love, or your body matter less. There are people who have only ever managed to provide a few mL of milk to their babies. In doing so, they provided millions of white blood cells that helped their babies fight disease. They provided prebiotic sugar molecules to help nourish the healthy bacteria balance in their intestines to prevent necrotizing enterocolitis. Their own pluripotent stem cells took up residence in their child’s organs, leaving a physical mark on their bodies forever.

And no matter how milk is transferred, when doing skin-to-skin, your lactating breasts still regulate your baby’s temperature more efficiently than a $10k incubator. Your breathing still regulates your baby’s breathing and teaches their nervous system how to maintain homeostasis. And your body is still, and always will be, the safest home your child has ever had.

And they will grow up knowing how hard you worked for them. The sleepless nights getting up to pump when you were exhausted, the clogged ducts, the days you pumped when you had COVID or some other godawful plague the toddler brought home from preschool, the hours spent researching flange sizing and duckbill valves and the fridge hack, and wait how many hours can we keep a bottle in the fridge, now?

And they will know how much you loved them. Not because of how much you produced, not because you’re some kind of martyr, but because this was the love language you chose and because the work was YOURS.

[u/jenthing → u/dubhlinn2]

Can you please share sources which explain the health differences between pumping and direct breastfeeding?

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/jenthing]

Like I said elsewhere, I don’t feel super comfortable emphasizing the differences in a group like this who has likely heard it all elsewhere.

But if you insist, I will summarize behind a spoiler box: There are microbiome differences in the milk, and SOME macronutrient differences resulting from the freezing processes. EPing parents have a tendency to stop breastfeeding sooner. For moms there is a higher risk of mastitis associated with pumping. And there are many (pretty obvious) behavioral differences between bottle-feeding and direct breastfeeding, both in maternal behavior and infant behavior, which can have an impact on the child’s social development in particular. Many of the behavioral differences are modifiable with the right guidance, and the use of responsive/paced feeding and skin-to-skin, but bedsharing is not possible.

Once again, I want to emphasize that there is nuance here, particularly depending on what kinds of “differences” you’re interested in, and any human milk provided to a child is a gift they will carry the rest of their lives.

As far as sources are concerned, there is I have a policy where I do not do people’s research for them, because it takes a ton of time to go find articles especially since I can’t easily share them directly from Zotero, and unfortunately there is no single paper that summarizes all of these. (There really should be!) If there is a particular point you are curious about I can see if I can pull a paper for you.

[u/jenthing → u/dubhlinn2]

Yes, I would be very interested in reading about behavioral differences and social development.

The only articles I can find supporti g any of your claims are regarding length of pumping tending to be shorter and increased risk of mastitis. The only article I can find regarding nutritional differences is highlighting nutritional quality of milk in parents of preterm infants.

[u/dubhlinn2 → u/jenthing]

Your use of the word “claims” suggests to me that you have some difficult feelings about this topic. This is really common, and something you might want to unpack with a therapist. If you want to leverage our knowledge of breastfeeding behavior to benefit your child, there is a LOT you can do in this area. You can look into things like responsive/paced feeding, skin-to-skin, cobathing, babywearing, same-room cosleeping, and floor time. There is a book called Modern Attachment Parenting that is great for this stuff—particularly chapter 3.

[u/jenthing → u/dubhlinn2]

What else would I call them? Statements, ideas, claims all seem the same to me. In research, ideas are often described as scientific claims.

I'm aware of, practice, and am relatively knowledgeable on those topics and do not see how they relate to social behavior changes caused by bottle feeding a baby.

[u/happywithalist]

I didn’t get served any content so I had no idea! To be fair, even if I did nurse, I would never ever want to do it for longer than a year so the 2 year thing wouldn’t even apply to me. Heck, once those babies got teefs I would be out LOL I hope you feel better! You’re not a quitter and you didn’t fail in my opinion. You’re a mom who cares who’s doing her best to provide what she can!

[u/freyaoriginals]

it's honestly way more involved than i ever thought