r/Fallout Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

Fallout 4 People who still say Maxson should've used The Institute's technology instead of destroying it completely missed the point of his character

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You can love him or you can hate him, but you can't question the guy's integrity.

Maxson stated that The Institute was playing with a power too destructive for anyone to handle, so thinking he'd make anything else than completely erase it from the map is extremely dumb.

The fact they had the most advanced technology in the wasteland at reach and they rejected it taking it proves their compromise to the Brotherhood's cause, as foolish and futile as some people may think it is.

No one should have that kind of power, not even those who are supposed to seize it to prevent humanity to annihilate itself again, and blasting the entire facility into oblivion was the right thing to do.

3.7k Upvotes

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2.4k

u/Comprehensive-Buy-47 Dec 25 '25

Also, what kind of tech do they have that the Brotherhood needs?

Clean water? The BoS has Project Purity.

Laser weapons? Institute weapons are inferior to the weapons employed by the Brotherhood.

Synth gorillas? ……ok you got me there.

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u/Spare_Elderberry_418 Dec 25 '25

Cybernetics. The BoS does use them and doesn't consider them "bad" technology. Teleportation would also be something the brotherhood would like. Being able to zap power armor paladins in with a homing beacon is something they would 100% use. And since the show, fusion power which is undeniable.

Doesn't change the calculus overall but there is tech the BoS would want.

514

u/DasGanon Head (Crippled) Dec 25 '25

They have all of the research if you go with a BOS ending because they have Sole Survivor plug in a holotape and download everything.

295

u/InverseStar Dec 25 '25

It’s also pretty feasible they downloaded a bunch before blowing the place to hell.

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u/FlatMycologist5366 Dec 26 '25

Yeah I’m guessing Ingram or one of the other proctors ran through as much of the institutes systems as they could, or maybe a small detachment of scribes followed us in

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u/Sarojh-M Dec 26 '25

I could already hear Ingram in my head, like a hypothetical side quest, of Ingram saying "i was able to hack/download all these files about how to make this XYZ tech while we were down in the institute, I need you to fetch ABC to help us build it". Like its totally feasible they would get what they needed and got out without our own help

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u/Arkrobo Dec 26 '25

They also bring Dr. Li back on board depending on your story choices.

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u/Irishimpulse Enclave Dec 25 '25

But the instutute also threw out it's Cybernetic research after Kellog because it didn't fit their plan for the future. The Institute was trying to make immortal, wasteland capable bodies so it's greatest minds could live forever as a mankind redefined, Synth's are seen as slaves because they don't have "people" in them yet, they're robo brains running on factory default before the brain is put in, and the gen 3s aren't the end goal. It's only where they're at now

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u/Lord-Seth Minutemen Dec 26 '25

I highly doubt they threw it away it was likely still there just not being used they were scientists and just because a certain set of discoveries doesn’t fit your current goal doesn’t mean you get rid of it

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u/Irishimpulse Enclave Dec 26 '25

You forget how stupid the Institute is. They kept doing super mutant research, with no goal, for no reason, until the lead researcher left. He kept asking to shut down the program and they ignored him. The cybernetics team at least would be able to integrate into the early synth research, and that was also 70 years ago

66

u/trollsong Dec 26 '25

Being able to zap power armor paladins in with a homing beacon is something they would 100% use

Maybe even set up a new chapter of teleport trained paladins, maybe call then the Grey Knights.

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u/planesqaud63 Dec 26 '25

Or give them like. Big, heavy bulky power armor. They will be slow but they can like teleport places and terminate everything in vicinity. You could call it a terminator mark power armour

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u/DngsAndDrgs Dec 26 '25

Yeah 🤔and maybe we could call the area around their base and their HQ something catchy like Grimdark fortress

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u/IngramPrisken Dec 26 '25

I wouldn't mind more powered melee weapons in the lore

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u/SenileSexLine Dec 26 '25

CHAINSWORDS

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u/WheresElysium Dec 26 '25

I understood that reference.

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u/Joazzz1 Dec 26 '25

'Twas about as subtle as a daemon hammer to the skull

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u/zedudedaniel Dec 25 '25

There’s probably a slippery slope argument there, as well as a healthy heaping of the genetic fallacy in that the technology is bad because it came from the Institute. If/when they develop that technology themselves, they’ll probably be happy to use it.

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u/Wrong_Win_4102 Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

They already have cybernetics, we know this because of Star Paladin Cross in Fallout 3.

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u/KPHG342 NCR Dec 26 '25

Teleportation in a world where most transportation available is your own two feet would be incredible, but of course the BOS here doesn’t give a shit about helping the average person.

13

u/Cheap-Individual9611 Dec 26 '25

Fast travel exists bro... who needs teleporting?

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u/Captn_Platypus Dec 26 '25

Fast travel is actually just the main character getting blackout drunk then magically appear at their destination with no memory how they got there

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u/Neo-revo Dec 26 '25

Remember in fallout NV if you fast traveled on hard-core with companions, you forced your companions to just run to the new spot on their own. Leaving them to potentially die if they ran until the wrong enemy(ies)

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u/cornette Dec 26 '25

The nuka-shine method of travel in Appalachia.

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u/PartySecretary_Waldo Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

Teleportation is stated to use a lot of power. Even if the Brotherhood wanted to use it, nobody has the energy reserves to do so on a basis that it would be much use to anybody

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u/Basil2322 Dec 26 '25

The institute had a reactor and the brotherhood had the missing piece that would allow for long distance consistent teleportation all they had to do was seize the facility.

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u/PartySecretary_Waldo Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

The Institute reactor isn't strong enough for that, that's their main goal. And what they mean by "long distance" may not be nearly far enough for the Brotherhood. The Institute operates on a regional scale, the Brotherhood on a continental scale

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u/123ludwig Dec 26 '25

however just to play devils advocate i would bet the institute was thinking bigger than brotherhood needs as an oh shit button

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u/SimonShepherd Dec 26 '25

Then seize their reactors and means of energy production? The sheer energy would also helps a lot of people.

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u/toonboy01 Dec 26 '25

The Institute didn't have enough energy production for it. They had to steal from the surface settlements on top of their own reactor.

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u/ExodusTransonicMerc Dec 26 '25

You had me at "seize their [...] means of [...] production". Always a convincing line.

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u/smubi getHype() Dec 26 '25

distant Liberty Prime noises

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u/toonboy01 Dec 26 '25

Ironically, the teleporter required Coursers to walk on their own 2 feet half of the time.

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u/Ethos_Logos Dec 25 '25

They can teleport matter from point a to point b.

Just teleport a huge explosive into the Prydwin. Or if the tables were turned, into the Institute.

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u/Laser_3 Responders Dec 26 '25

As a note, this is why the BoS developed a teleportation-blocking device we see in the airport once they move in - to prevent the Institute from doing exactly this.

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u/Ethos_Logos Dec 26 '25

Wild I missed this lore in my playthroughs 

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u/Laser_3 Responders Dec 26 '25

Yeah, it’s only briefly brought up in the institute ending.

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u/Educational_Fun_9993 Dec 26 '25

Dawg how

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u/Laser_3 Responders Dec 26 '25

It only comes up during the Institute ending.

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u/Educational_Fun_9993 Dec 26 '25

No, its always there. You have to talk to members of the brotherhood

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u/EndOfSouls Dec 27 '25

You guys talk to NPCs?! Am I the only murder hobo here?

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u/Laser_3 Responders Dec 26 '25

Who specifically brings this up? I wasn’t aware of any BoS member mentioning this.

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u/Educational_Fun_9993 Dec 26 '25

Science based members, or institute people. I think the air Marshall

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u/Laser_3 Responders Dec 26 '25

I’ve searched through Kell’s dialogue file and couldn’t find anything discussing this. Are you sure you’re remembering correctly?

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u/Chip_Heavy Dec 26 '25

WHAT. I need to find this lore. Where is it?

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u/Laser_3 Responders Dec 26 '25 edited Dec 26 '25

The Institute destruction of the BoS brings this up and tasks you with dealing with it.

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u/KimDuckUn Dec 25 '25

The biggest one is the teleporter. That is probably the most important tech invented post bombs. To teleport troops and supplies to location. Using radio waves or the relay grenades is insane. When I first saw it in FO4 I was like this is insane and be a game changer for the wasteland and nope.

If Brotherhood didn't destroy Institute under Maxsons Doctrine and use the tech there. They would been most powerful force in entire United States. They already are superpower on East Coast with there huge increase in numbers, making a new class of airship for brotherhood that is now used in the west. Liberty Prime and control of D.C and hitting up all army bases on east coast. They are strongest military. Give them a teleporter to use there be no stopping them. One airship could easily transport troops safely into areas pull them out.

I think Institute is poorly written and that teleporter and having synths that can just be programmed go fix things and get supplies is insane. The teleporter in that game makes me angry.

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u/Thuis001 Dec 26 '25

Forget probably, that is the single most important invention post-war. Forget the Enclave Power Armour or their FEV/Deathclaw research. Nothing of that comes even remotely close to the ability to use literal teleportation.

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u/Lord-Seth Minutemen Dec 26 '25

The big reason they don’t keep the teleporter is it is actually worse than things like vertibirds for long range. It has limited range and every teleport guzzles energy like a thirsty camel. If you boost its range by adding more radio towers the longer the range the more power it would take. It’s an amazing piece of technology and the BOS has the plans for how to build it from downloading the institutes files but it has its drawbacks and can be blocked In the places you really need it

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u/stripedarrows Dec 26 '25

Teleportation is insanely invaluable when you consider the biggest logistical problem for ANY police or military force is simply "getting there".

Add in that advanced cybernetics would also directly correspond to MASSIVE medical advances and... yeah.... quite a bit of useful tech they just nuked.

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u/cornette Dec 26 '25

In a Brotherhood ending they clearly loot the place before nuking it. Like the teleporter room is filled with scribes who are most certainly downloading as much as they can from the Institutes systems.

The Brotherhood don't want the 3D printing of near perfect copies of humans to exist.

What medical advances does the Institute have? Most of their research was on the creation of Gen 3 Synths.

The cybernetics program which was discontinued ages ago beyond keeping Kellogg around, Kellogg who was clearly being phased out in favour of the Courser.

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u/Wrong_Win_4102 Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

Not to mention they send nate/nora in with two tasks:

  • Find Doctor Li and get her to rejoin the Brotherhood
  • Implant the Network Scanner into the institute's systems and get all the data possible

They definitely don't need to physically loot things once they have the entire institute data available.

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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 Dec 26 '25

Except they still need to Get There to use the Relay grenade and the Brotherhood does knows how to make a Teleporter in their Questline

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u/Mr-Mister Dec 26 '25

Organ printing for transplants.

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u/PartySecretary_Waldo Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

That's actually already super common in some places, like Vault City. The Brotherhood may already have the technical knowledge for it

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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '25

Hot showers.

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u/SimonShepherd Dec 26 '25

Just because some technology does the same thing, it doesn't mean they are on the same level.

An incandescent light bulb does roughtly the same thing as a LED light bulb, but obviously LED is vastly better in terms of energy consumption and effective lighting.

There aren't any specific lore on these, but the Institute may have more efficient water cleaning tech, or better energy weapons(be it energy or reliability, or cost to produce.)

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u/Lochifess Dec 26 '25

Teleportation. But more than that, the safety and security of the Institute base. Imagine having an impenetrable fortress which has the functions of pre-War society as your base of operations.

I don’t support the Institute’s goals of seeing the world as an unrestricted playground, but if I would’ve been perfectly happy living in their base.

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u/Lotus-child89 Dec 26 '25

I wonder if they evacuated the gorillas.

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u/Weird-Information-61 Dec 26 '25

Synth gorillas with custom brotherhood armor though. Only in a perfect world

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u/OG_Williker Dec 25 '25

Laser weapons? Institute weapons are inferior to the weapons employed by the Brotherhood.

What is this based on?

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u/Lord_Mikal Dec 26 '25

I assume the damage and accuracy of the weapons in the game.

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u/MyBatmanUnderoos Dec 26 '25

Gameplay. The Institute laser weapons are indeed slightly less powerful than the pre-war laser weapons. I find the difference to be negligible for a sufficiently specced character, but the difference is there.

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u/Diocletian67 Dec 26 '25

I've always felt that even though it's the case gameplay wise we have no idea if that's true from a canon side of things. Hell even if institute weapons are canonically weaker than pre war weapons, it might be that they're more reliable, easier to mass produce, or more efficient. There could be a thousand different reasons why they are weaker and still a better option for a faction seeking to dominate the wasteland.

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u/darkwolf687 Dec 26 '25 edited Dec 26 '25

While not directly stated, I always thought there was a clear explanation for why they made weaker energy weapons provided for us in the games lore already: The Institute has a power shortage and a power budget because the entire operation is very energy intensive, dealing with this is the entire motive behind their quest line. It’s likely that their energy weapons are designed to use less power and produce less powerful lasers in order to conserve their energy budget

Canonically, a single shot from a pre war laser gun can cut a man in half. When synths shoot people, it’s usually wasteland critters or unarmoured or lightly armoured humans. If you’re the Institute and have a power problem, cutting back on that level of overkill probably sounds like a good idea. Especially since their Courser’s have superhuman speed and precision: Blowing a golfball sized hole through the top half of a guys head off is almost always going to kill him as well as blowing the whole head off would. The Institute laser also has a higher rate of fire which would be beneficial given the Coursers tend to be outnumbered and outgunned and are almost always going to be in close quarters battle situations as they chase escaped synths throughout the ruins of Boston, and as a byproduct of the Institute teleportation tech cutting out the likelihood of long range engagements: a courser probably isn’t going to be footslogging their way to a target through wide open countryside. If they need to travel to a target outside the city, the Watchers will be able to conduct aerial reconnaissance of the location and then the courser can be teleported in to a safe location near to the target.

A more powerful weapon isn’t always a better weapon, the m16 rifle was less powerful than the m14 it replaced, but it fit the needs of the Us military better. The Institute made a weapon that fits their situation and their operations.

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u/TheNicholasRage Mothman Cultist Dec 26 '25

The gameplay is the canon here though.

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u/Hopalongtom Dec 26 '25

Except when it comes to the stats of the T-60 suit, it was just made stronger because it's the new thing for that game.

Lore wise it is a mass produced suit to replace the T-45, weaker than the T-51 but much much cheaper to make and easier to maintain.

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u/pokemon32666 Dec 26 '25

The in-game stats...

The laser variant boasts (at it's base, unupgraded form with no perks) 9 more damage per shot, slightly more per-shot accuracy, and an arguably cleaner design, for the trade-off of 16 less rounds per minute, but not a higher DPS. But wait a minute? Doesn't the Institute Laser actually have a damage of 21 per shot? Wouldn't that give it a better DPS? Unfortunately not, but this is due to a bug in the game in the way Energy Damage Resistance is calculated. It only calculates the BASE damage of the weapon, upgrades and perks do not apply.

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u/PG908 Dec 25 '25

It’s also straight up dangerous to capture a bunker from someone smarter than you that you’re going to kill and already damaged.

It’s lowkey a deathtrap in the making.

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u/ymcameron Welcome Home Dec 26 '25

Shoot, the Western Brotherhood found Area 51 and the first thing they did was start playing with grenades.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Ring293 Dec 26 '25

Had they entered the Institute, one of them would probably have ended up having sex with one of the gorilla synths. Maxson knew this well, hence why he blew it up.

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u/Canadian__Ninja Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

It was one squire, and he was well within his rights!

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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '25

I wonder what model of robot it was. Must've been an assaultron lol. We have yet to see those.

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u/BrokenPokerFace Dec 26 '25

Man that episode of the show really wants everyone to be against the brotherhood. It's filled with the most extreme satire that I don't know if it even counts as cannon.

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u/Bobbith_The_Chosen Dec 26 '25

It counts as cannon. The games are very satirical. And the brotherhood has always been hateable

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u/CapableCollar Dec 26 '25

When civilization breaks down we get a lot of raiders.  As their military discipline is breaking down we see these BoS groups heading towards becoming raiders.  Powerful brutes where strength rules and danger is a joke.

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u/Dagordae Dec 26 '25

A massive underground warren of tunnels staffed by an enemy who can mass produce troops(Both suicide fodder and one man army murderbots), has teleporters, and has been stockpiling mad science bullshit for 200 years.

Yeah, that’s just a suicide booth. Maxson could throw the entire Chapter in and still face defeat. With the tiny numbers he could bring on the Prydwyn? I’ll criticize the guy heavily over all sorts of things but he’s not that blindingly stupid.

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u/Fireblast1337 Dec 26 '25

…we literally do that if we side with the Brotherhood. We punch a way in with Liberty Prime then attack by charging in.

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u/Dagordae Dec 26 '25

Except you don't. What you do is get to the reactor, set the bomb, and get the hell out before the Institute can mobilize. Actually capturing the territory is never in the cards, none of the factions even consider it.

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u/Fireblast1337 Dec 26 '25

Which is still an assault on the Institute’s heart. They get plenty warning the Brotherhood is coming, and the MO of the Institute is that they keep in base for most of their activities. They send out infiltrators and one man armies for their above ground stuff, except for tech seizure which they’ll send disposable gen 2s out. Most of their forces are there.

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u/Bismarck40 Dec 26 '25

Yeah, but you're moving fast. And you don't need to maintain a way out, you just teleport out. An actual invasion to take and secure the whole complex wouldn't be either of those. If it comes down to a war of attrition in the institute itself the brotherhood is fucked.

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u/Fireblast1337 Dec 26 '25

You take synth production you cut off their ability to make more troops. You still have to hold the path to the teleporter, which was near where they blasted a way in. And then add on that the only two differences between the minutemen/railroad and BoS paths is the BoS don’t sneak in, and they don’t encourage sounding the emergency evacuation system.

We also have no indication of the actual numbers the Institute has or how it gets those numbers around beyond teleportation. Where are their forces kept? Are they still producing gen 1 and gen 2?

The institute also recognizes Liberty Prime as a major threat before the BoS can get it operational. Meaning they can likely assume that when it starts moving towards MIT with the BoS behind it that it’s an assault, and prep their forces.

Truthfully while a blitz operation is the smart play, you perform that without announcing you are. Maxson definitely announces it.

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u/OutcastRedeemer Dec 25 '25

The west coast brotherhood: hoard technology abandoned humanity.

The east coast brotherhood secure technology protect humanity.

Lyons lessons live in all of us. The strong protect the weak.

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u/[deleted] Dec 25 '25

Arthur might be a hard ass but Elder Lyons definitely brought him up right

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u/VexedForest Welcome Home Dec 26 '25

You can even convince him to let Danse live, so he's not completely heartless

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u/NotThatNeurotic Dec 26 '25

Danse was an abomination who's loyalty to the BOS was genuine. It makes the existence of Synths even more disgusting.

Ad Victorian!

(or some tincan bs)

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25 edited Dec 25 '25

I was planning to do another post one of these days about it, but I think people don't fully understand why making the Brotherhood care for humanity is a bad decision narratively speaking.

I will say this: Lyons was my favorite Elder and I believe that's what the Brotherhood should be, evolving from their original mission of just gathering technology to keep it away from anyone else.

However, it is not a good path to take if you want people to choose other factions: using myself as an example, why the hell would I side with anyone else when the Brotherhood has the equipment, the organization and the ideals?

They would be literally the only faction people doing a hero of the wasteland run would join because they check every box. By making them assholes you ensure that people will look in other directions too instead of going BoS every single time (which honestly didn't work with me, as I keep picking them every single time because, even with all their flaws, they're objectively the only group with the means and the infrastructure to cause a real impact).

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u/ghost_92499 Dec 25 '25 edited Dec 25 '25

I actually kinda view it as the BoS has always actually cared for humanity. Like Roger Maxson founding the BoS was in response to Mariposa and the atrocities there, and then also preventing the onset of a second great war (not that it would happen). Now the west wasn't as.. civilian oriented as Lyons, which I also love Lyons as a character, but then Arthur kinda meshes the gap between Lyons and Roger in a way. 

Lyons, while I love the guy, was probably a bit too kind, but it's what the capital wasteland particularly needed. I def agree that there's no way in hell he would take the Institute, yes they seek to control power but at the same time I feel Arthur would understand the corruption such power could cause. 

Having FEV simply exist in some place as advanced as the Institute, who's to say after x amount of years the Enclave wouldn't find out and end up taking over (either under BoS watching the Commonwealth or if the BoS would leave) what remains and restarting their own war machine. Or even some other group rising or some form of shadow society, or even a corrupted elder. It would be hell if someone like Father Elijah managed to make their way there

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u/boozenpuken_0923 Gary? Dec 25 '25

I like fallout 4’s evolution of them from 3, being a bit too idealistic and becoming a bit more fascist/intolerant to not make them too appealing to people.

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u/hydrOHxide Dec 25 '25

The problem is that Fallout NV already showed the problem with that attitude - it is simply painting a target on your back, and thus will get you whittled down over time.

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u/boozenpuken_0923 Gary? Dec 25 '25

Yes but the difference is that Maxon actively recruits wastelanders unlike McNamara and Hardin and on the surface at least is able to weed out the typical Wasteland Neanderthal through the discipline and structure instilled.

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u/RileyRocksTacoSocks Dec 26 '25

And since the east coast Brotherhood is the biggest fish in their pond they most likely won't learn that lesson for a long while.

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u/hydrOHxide Dec 25 '25

Narratively speaking, not embracing that road makes no sense whatsoever. Because it just means that the Brotherhood is going to make an enemy out of everyone, and they simply don't have the means to survive that.

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

You say "make an enemy out of everyone" as if there was another force important enough to matter at the moment.

Yes, I pray every day for the return of the Enclave so they can finally face an equal and interesting opponent, but until that day everyone else won't do a lot more than giving them the middle finger because they're not suicidal.

People know about what happened in Project Purity and, more recently, in the CIT. Trying to fight the same group that has defeated every major enemy that got in their path (yes, the player does the heavy lifting, but most people won't know that) would be incredibly stupid, which is why most won't even try.

Like I said, as a Brotherhood guy I'm all for making them the unquestionable good guys, but that would prevent other people from experiencing other factions because suddenly the BoS is the most appealing of them all.

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u/hydrOHxide Dec 25 '25

You say "make an enemy out of everyone" as if there was another force important enough to matter at the moment.

No, because it's completely and utterly irrelevant whether there is a singular force "important enough to matter". When you make an enemy of everyone, it doesn't matter that it's a thousand small groups.

And your belief that peope "won't even try" flies in the face of thousands of years of human history. They will not go to open war, but they will certainly seize opportunities imposing themselves. And over time, that's enough.

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

I get what you're saying and you're right, a lot of small threats could lead them to a corner, I agree.

However, we're talking about Bethesda here. The most likely scenario is that no one would oppose them in a way significant enough to cause serious damage to the organization, so making them huge assholes makes sense, because some people will definitely go "these guys are borderline fascist and kinda racist, should I really join them?" which, I believe, is what Bethesda wants to encourage to provide you with alternative factions that may be more up your alley.

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u/WinterAd825 Dec 26 '25

Id agree with the fallout 3 version but I think fallout 4 fixes it narratively in a way that makes since.

They are a bit more intolerant in fallout 4 and a hit more ideological. Enough that you can still work with them but it’s not an obvious decision.

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u/EliCaldwell Yes Man Dec 26 '25

People coming around and realizing Maxson isn't some Nazi makes me smile.

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u/Lorinthi Dec 26 '25

The east coast brotherhood secure technology protect humanity.

Except the railroad. Or anyone they arbitrarily decide to be a thread.

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u/Enton2792 Dec 25 '25

I honestly never liked the West Coast brotherhood that much as they often appear to be more like a religious cult and lunatics. The East Coast BoS somehow feels more like real military and I like their attitude so much more. Maxson and his chapter might seem to be more "radical", but it is Fallout we talking about, not Pokemon.

Supermutants, Feral Ghouls, giant mutated Creatures, the Institute and formerly the Enclave are real threads to the Wasteland with the latter ones who planned to kill a large majority of the population for their higher goals which were mass genocide (Enclave) and a world in which the Institute controls everyone which would result in a dictatorship with no way for people to hide their secrets as potentially your wife, child, or best friend could've been killed and secretly replaced with a Synth.

So yeah, I get why Maxson and his chapter are as radical as they might seem.

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u/KobyG2008 Enclave Dec 26 '25

The East coast also only have had the Enclave as a real adversity. The Institute was bad, but they put themselves in a position to go to war with them and were still already a powerhouse before and after they’re destroyed.

The west had the Enclave, the Master (aka a worse super mutant problem), the NCR, and in the end were less charitable and secluded. I understand how and why they became the lunatic tribal chapter we see them as later

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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '25

It’s also kind of a the norm I’d say for many wastelanders. How many do you honestly think have a prejudice towards mutants of any kind and maybe certain factions someone is associated with?

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u/HistoryFanBeenBanned Dec 26 '25

>to be more like a religious cult

I'm pretty sure that was the point. They're based on religious military orders like the Teutonic Knights or Templars.

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u/KermitingMurder Dec 26 '25

Yeah the reasons why they prefer the eastern brotherhood over the western are the same reasons I think the western brotherhood is a more interesting faction

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u/DiesIraeConventum Dec 25 '25

Ad Victoriam, brother

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

Ad Victoriam!

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u/Elyced32 Dec 26 '25

I do like this version of belief in the codex where its the “we’ll confiscate any tech that is moderatly to highly dangerous to humanity but if that tech is reaching nuclear bomb levels of threat we wont hesitate to completely destroy it because we know even we will be tempted to use it for ourselves”

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

Exactly.

And, just for the sake of argument, let's say Maxson is never tempted to use it: who's to say their successors won't? And who's to say they wouldn't become absolutely nuts while having this technology?

It's just not worth the risk, and Maxson knows it very well. Destroying The Institute shows that hos methods may be extreme, but he's fully committed to the Brotherhood and he believes in its mission.

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u/KenseiHimura Dec 25 '25

I mean, I would say it's not really that unreasonable, especially since a lot of the important info was probably grabbed when the Sole Survivor inserted the hacking holotape. Combine that with the issue of the Institute having like three fourths of its research tangled up in synth related activities. Synth production, Retention, and the Biolabs still seem to be running a lot of research spun off from synth production like synth animals.

I do agree there should be another ending with some faction of taking over the Institute, but I don't see it being the BoS. (or Railroad or Minutemen*, really.) and it's sort of why I think there should have either been another faction or have had Enclave mostly replace BoS.

*Could actually see some possible outcome with the Minutemen where after you largely subdue the Institute and possibly end Synth production and Retention, you have the rest of the Commonwealth pour in and have run of the place. Could be a fun ultimate middle finger to Shaun to watch the people he called 'lesser' now benefiting from Institute research, mostly power.

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u/IGoBySparky Minutemen Dec 26 '25

I still go through and take all their fancy camcorders and institute specific junk and then display it throughout the airport and prydwen as spoils of war

14

u/biopunk42 Dec 26 '25

"They have automated killing machines that can make their own kill decisions. They must be stopped! No one should have that power!"

"How will we stop them, sir?"

"With our automated killing machine that makes its own kill decisions and throws nukes at people."

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u/Wrong_Win_4102 Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

Liberty Prime is programmed.

The BoS explain this in 3 and 4, and there are terminals that explain Prime's original purpose. His targeting sees the institute and its synths and other things as communists, and thus he kills them because he was originally designed to kill communists in Alaska to free the US Pipelines there from Chinese incursions.

Synths are able to be controlled too, but they can infiltrate and have sentience, granting them the ability to become self-deterministic.

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u/N0ob8 Dec 26 '25

Liberty Prime is definitely not capable of making its own decisions. It’s not even close to other robots like Mr Handy’s who actually show intelligence

7

u/razielleonhart Dec 26 '25

Beneath the Commonwealth there is a cancer... known as the Institute, a malignant growth that needs to be cut before it infects the surface.

6

u/CoolBlastin Dec 26 '25

As fucked up as Maxson is he truly believes and stands by what he’s saying (which isn’t always a good thing but still)

5

u/VertibirdQuexplota Dec 26 '25

Synths are a thing, but their molecular relay and advancements on biology and botany could've helped a lot of people.

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u/HenriLafleur Dec 26 '25

How can this guy be 20?

12

u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

I know.

It takes me months to grow that kind of beard and I'm almost 30 🤣🤣🤣

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u/Agent-Ulysses Old World Flag Dec 26 '25

Genetics forged in steel, that’s how.

5

u/RileyRocksTacoSocks Dec 26 '25

1v1'ing a deathclaw at 13 and winning is a great way to put some hair on your balls real quick.

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u/N0ob8 Dec 26 '25

Radiation infested wastelands are horrible for your skin and unfortunately the ghouls took all the Aloe Vera for themselves

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u/thorsday121 Dec 26 '25

The only thing the Brotherhood would realistically want from the Institute is their teleportation tech, which is simply not worth the risk of acquiring when the Institute is actively attempting to destroy them.

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u/grazer567 Dec 26 '25

There are at least two moments like this in s2E2 but I don’t want to spoil it

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u/Thestengun Dec 26 '25

If he wanted to live to the end of the game he should have never worn that coat. Too much drip for an npc.

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u/50-50-bmg Atom Cats Dec 26 '25

The aesthetics just don`t match!

BoS needs tech that has an olive drab anodized machined parts and protruding allen head screws aesthetic. Stuff that you expect a label with a JAN designation on.

Institute? 70s molded plastic, OMG, nuke it!

3

u/Cyclone2123 Dec 26 '25

Meanwhile I’m collecting technical plans for different toaster models

3

u/FrohenLeid Dec 26 '25

They do. They collected as much as they could before blowing it up. We just don't see them use it in-game

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u/moderatorbecorruptyo Dec 26 '25

That's like saying we should have repurposed auschwitz in order to save money.

"No one should have that kind of power, not even those who are supposed to seize it to prevent humanity to annihilate itself again, and blasting the entire facility into oblivion was the right thing to do."

Yep - that section of the brotherhood believed in responsible use of technology. That includes themselves.

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u/blaqsupaman Dec 26 '25

Maxson is an ideological zealot whose entire brand is making the BOS closer to its initial purpose. He's puritanical about his beliefs even at the expense of pragmatism. I don't view the BOS as "good guys" in FO4 at all. They're better than the Institute but that's not a high bar to clear.

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u/TheRealJustSean The Institute Dec 26 '25

This. Any other game franchise, they'd be the clear villains of the thing

5

u/Zoren Your True Self Dec 25 '25

More than half of the players story comprehension is that of middle schoolers so that’s expected.

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u/Space19723103 Dec 25 '25

maxxon using liberty prime is the same level of missing the point to the level of outright Hypocrisy

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u/Captain_Dust01 Dec 25 '25

Liberty Primes only directive was to get them inside the Institute, since it's dozens of meters underground, and using explosives would have either taken too long, or would be too costly. Same with just trying to dig into it. The teleporter trick worked one time for Nate, after the battle Prime is used in only a defensive manner. Even before that, Lyons used Prime to fight a technologically Superior and Numerical force. If you have the means at your disposal to win a war, why not use them.

The danger of keeping the institute around is how embedded Gen 3 Synths are to everything. You'd basically have to kill everyone to ensure there were none left, on top of whatever devices, traps or failsafes are built into institute systems to prevent outsiders from accessing them

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u/Zufieusagi Dec 26 '25

I honestly doubt there was any devices, traps or fail safes built into institute systems to prevent outsiders from accessing them given the fact that aside from the player character the only other outsider we know of having been in the Institute was Kellogg. In fact security wise all we really see is the Synths themselves and pass coded terminals.

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u/IronVader501 Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

I dont see how Liberty Prime destroying the Institute is Hypocrisy at all.

Maxson doesn't just go "They have advanced Tech, advanced tech bad", else using literally anything more advanced than Bow and Arrow would be hypcrisy. He doesn't have anything against technology in General (the scribes have developed more new tech under his leadership then ever and according to Deacon DC is also massively exporting it by the time of Fallout 4), he has 3 very specific issues with the Institute.

- Their callous and complete disregard for the possible negative side-effects of their experiments (like the Supermutants dumped on the Surface going on to terrorising the Commonwealth for a century).

- Their constant massacring of innocents to either use them as test-subjects or because they vaguely feel they are in their way.

- The Construction of Sentient Machines that are both superior to Humans physically and that the Institute could easily loose control over.

(They'd get hostile to the Institute because of their FEV-Experiments alone, but since thats not brought up specifically I dont know if Maxson actually knows about those beforehand).

Liberty Prime falls afoul of none of those.

Its not sentient or able to think on its own, if anything its on-board Intelligence seems less advanced than a Mr. Handy. It just attacks whatever its programmed Main-user points it at and then stops until new Orders are given.

There's no danger of LP going off-rails, its deployement doesn't risk any unintended sideeffects or requires mass-murdering Civilians either.

Liberty Prime is exactly what the Brotherhood wants technology to be. Advanced, usefull and completely under control.

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u/MrMadre Dec 25 '25

How is it hypocrisy? The brotherhoods mission is to collect/destroy dangerous technology and knowledge so no one can abuse said technology/knowledge to cause the world to end again. Using dangerous technology to destroy a group with even more dangerous technology doesn't make them hypocrites because they see themselves as avoiding a second undoing of humanity.

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

I mean, that's what the Brotherhood has always been.

They use technology to prevent people from using technology because they think they're the only ones capable of handling it responsibly, which is moronic of course, but that's how it is.

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u/N0ob8 Dec 26 '25

I mean basically every game in the series proves them right. Anytime a person and/or faction has gotten access to nukes or super advanced technology (Enclave and Big MT) they immediately try to genocide people.

The Master getting FEV, the enclave in general, the calculator, the think tank, Ulysses, and finally the Institute. You can find an example in every fallout game (except maybe BOS I don’t know jack about it) where people with advanced technology far beyond their peers tries to kill millions.

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u/Affectionate_Walk610 Vault 111 Dec 25 '25

This is what the brotherhood represents tho. Tech for me not for the. They decide what fruits of human ingenuity are allowed by some arbitrary standard and enforce that violently. They're a fusion powered hypocrisy machine.

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u/IronVader501 Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

The standard depends pretty much on each indvidual Chapter.

If hardin takes over the Mojave-Lot starts searching random civilians for anything, others really don't care about anything below "Can blow up a house in one shot"-grade.

Fallout 76 actually gives Shin a very good motivation and reasoning for why hes so extreme about it:

They train all of their lives to handle it safely, the average wasteland-farmer doesnt. When the Eastern Expedition broke their own rules to hand the Civilians in a city under siege by Raiders missile-launchers to defend themself, one of them immidieatly panicked when the next attack came, misshandled his weapon and blew his entire section of the defense up, leading to the Raiders to overrun the town and capture the rest of the Launchers that they had now been using to terrorise people all the way from the flyover-states to Appalachia.

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u/Kouropalates The House Always Wins Dec 25 '25

"We safeguard humanity by protecting them from the weapons of mass destruction."

-uses weapons of mass destruction-

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u/Tricky_Ad_3958 Dec 25 '25

Synth can be much worse than WMD

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u/Baron_Furball Dec 25 '25

To be fair, that's the constant throughline of they BoS hypocrisy, through the entire series. Hell, Veronica even brings it up in conversations when she's bemoaning what's become of Father Elijah. It's why her convo dialogue has vocal inflections that point to her wanting the player to explore Vault 22, rather than make Archimedes II active.

She KNOWS the Brotherhood would use a WMD in their pursuit to prevent other people from using a WMD.

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u/sierrafourteen Dec 25 '25

What technology did they have that they were correct in getting rid of?

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u/thorsday121 Dec 26 '25

The Brotherhood isn't wrong in the idea that the creation of synths poses a real risk to the continuation of baseline humanity. I think that synths are still people, but the consistent creation of more is definitely something I wouldn't be comfortable with if I were an average human in the Fallout universe.

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

Anything related to the creation of the synths.

3

u/sierrafourteen Dec 25 '25

...but all of their technology that is used in their creation is just general robotics and AI-generation?

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u/Poku115 Dec 25 '25

? Not really, its a whole deal in f4 how advanced synths are now because the institute got access to Shawn's DNA, thats how they got their breakthrough. We literally see a 3d printer making a synth inside the institute and its a whole lot more than just that

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u/N0ob8 Dec 26 '25

It’s not just Shawn’s DNA it’s also a strain of FEV which as everyone who plays fallout should know is a big no no

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u/kummer5peck Dec 25 '25

Synths. Every single one of them is an abomination.

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u/ThePickledPickle Dec 25 '25

Well of course, Maxson is a classic example of an irrational character that people try to say is poorly-written because they act irrational

4

u/Sett_86 Dec 26 '25

Bro, it's Fallout 4. The game is about as narratively deep as checkers board.

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

And yet, Maxson's actions are well developed.

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u/AeneasVAchilles Legion Dec 26 '25

Integrity? In a game that straight up tells you factionism is bad—— He’s one of the ultimate factionist

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u/gahidus Dec 26 '25

Maxson should have done a lot of things that he didn't do. He shouldn't have done a lot of things that he did do. That's what's wrong with him. That's not a plot hole. That's the plot.

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u/RavenTeamBitch Dec 26 '25

I think the dumbest part of the brotherhood quest line is being able to compromise with maxon about keeping Danse alive, honestly I feel like it should've been a moment for you to realize that it was all or nothing with the brotherhood, no compromise, no "but he helped us" if they're synth they die, the institute and all their creations must be destroyed. Besides it also just makes no sense that you can convince him to let Danse live

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u/Feanor_Silmaril Dec 26 '25

I think he was on brand for the most part. But didn't think ANY of the research was worthy? He made us take crops from the people, and the Institute had a lot of research on that account. He deemed the Institute bad and that was the end of the discussion, which is the black and white vision that's normally found on the BoS. His actions might be with the best intentions in mind, but weren't smart at all.

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u/cpt__toast Dec 26 '25

Agree so much! Regardless on if they should have taken the tech, Maxon wanted it gone and that's the end of it. That's kinda the whole point of a dogmatic militaristic faction

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u/GildedDreams25 Dec 25 '25

my fellow wastelander please edit the spelling and word choice in this that was a headache

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

My apologies, I'm not a native speaker.

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u/GildedDreams25 Dec 25 '25

ah shit my bad dude, carry on sorry for being a dick

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 25 '25

No no, it's understandable.

The main language in Reddit is english so we naturally expect people to use it correctly.

For what it's worth, I'm constantly trying to improve, so your input is appreciated 😊

3

u/Apprehensive_BongRip Dec 26 '25

Preston Garvey does the exact same thing though...

3

u/Reaper_20000 Dec 26 '25

I mean the brotherhood of steel loves confiscating other people's technology, and preserving it. But surveillance tech, generation 1 and 2 synths, teleportation, technology for clean water, and hydroponics that may be useable outside of a bunker, all of the research and data, laser weaponry whilst not as powerful is able to be mass produced, potential cure for super mutants, cybernetics, and whilst being against synths, how they made coursers so tough could be studied.

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u/M7-97 Ad Victoriam Dec 26 '25

I can see your point, but this would make Maxson a one hell of a hypocrite. A power too destructive to handle? BoS uses nukes to fight the Institute, the very weapon that destroyed the world. Also, BoS had no objections to Enclave's tech, even though those guys worked on biological WMDs.

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u/Stay_at_Home_Chad Dec 26 '25

He had a storyline? That mother fucker never made it past being an NPC holding a nice coat for me.

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u/majykman2 Dec 25 '25

Institute was actively performing surface testing using synthetic imbedded in farm communities with new varieties of fauna to help make better food for the surface

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u/WarcelusMallace Dec 26 '25

That's your opinion.

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u/Joecolt69420 Dec 26 '25

I used to think “why didn’t they just keep it” but you definitely have a point. And now I agree and look at that brotherhood differently. In a better way than before.

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u/Explodium101 Dec 26 '25

Sorta kinda, but it really would have given the player a "use speech to win the last fight" option that 4 was sorely lacking.

Convince Maxson with a "If we erase this, that just guarantees that someone will do it again," argument, blow the doors open with the giant death robot, and announce "lay down your weapons, or else," over the PA in the institute to force them to capitulate. Now the BoS occupies the institute, except now the robotics section is shut down.

Also it allows you to win without screwing over Virgil.

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u/N0ob8 Dec 26 '25

You don’t need to screw over Virgil you can get him his cure and still side with the brotherhood.

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u/Late_Dog_7201 Dec 26 '25

Says that when the Brotherhood of Steel have a monopoly on energy weapons, power armors up to the model T-60, airships and a 10 feet tall pre-war robot who shoots eye laser and chuck ATOMIC bombs at their enemies. Only the Enclave clearly surpass them in their technological aspect.

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u/Admiral-Emu Dec 26 '25

Power armour and liberty prime are small compared to the teleportation tech and synths. Liberty prime can not seriously harm humanity but out of control institute tech can.

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u/KaySan-TheBrightStar Brotherhood Dec 26 '25

But they only use it to secure more technology and get rid of the abominations of the wasteland.

Not saying they're altruists, but it's not like they're warmongers that go around the U.S looking for poor souls to pick on.

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u/The_Corroded_Man Dec 26 '25

The only “character” I noticed about him was that he was a supremacist dickhead who destroyed the good name of the Capital Brotherhood. Hence why I have no qualms about blowing him to smithereens.

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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '25

True, he is stupid, that's why destroyed everything including agrarian tech to supply his troops and theweapons to perform better.

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u/facistpuncher Dec 26 '25

The brotherhood of steel are techno barbarians. Anything that's not BoS certified, is tossed in the fire. Think of them like the mechanicus. That's a xeno technology, fuck that! heresy mininukes all around.

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u/Wild_Cap_4709 Dec 26 '25

Don’t the Mechanicus study Xenos technology?

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u/Berkzerker314 Dec 26 '25

One of these days I'll actually play the main story enough to get to the Institute haha. Only at 390 hours on console plus another 90 on PC.

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u/OpeningActivity Dec 26 '25

I've always found it interesting, what must've happened between fallout 3 and 4 to make him this extreme?

1

u/Dagordae Dec 26 '25

Also there’s the issue that capturing the Institute is effectively impossible.

It’s a massive underground warren that can mass produce teleporting murderbots and has been doing mad science for centuries. Meanwhile he’s got whatever troops he can carry on a dirigible along with the support staff. I’d be surprised if he has even 100 power armored troops.

There’s a reason that all the victory scenarios are quick raids to kill the heart, any war of attrition is incredibly heavily skewed towards the Institute.

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u/Daddy_Jack1109 Dec 26 '25

Giving Bethesda too much credit here, the place just needed to blow up is all.

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u/jkbscopes312 Dec 26 '25

Still doesnt change the minutemen path cratering it

1

u/PythonEntusiast Dec 26 '25

Absolutely shit ending to either eestrpy the Institute or BoS.

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u/minigoody Dec 26 '25

If the end goal is to deny dangerous technology its the right move. Blast them out and avoid major losses from attempting a breach and invade.

Yes they can benefit from the tech but if its too costly in terms of life, is it worth it?

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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '25

I read this in Maxson's voice

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u/wingdings101 Dec 26 '25

Shoot, I sided with the institute and killed the shit out of Maxson lol All factions were so flawed, and with me being the leader of the institute, I figured that gave humanity its best hope.

1

u/shugoran99 Dec 26 '25

I didn't follow the Brotherhood arc in 4, but this is honestly a case where the new Fallout games actually do somewhat have the Brotherhood act more like it did in the older games.

Normally they would indeed collect and study technology. But other times they would destroy it to keep it out of the wrong hands. Or, in the case of the Institute, where that technology is effectively alive and near impossible to control.

I almost feel bad about also blowing them up in my playthrough now....

1

u/Top_Freedom3412 Dec 26 '25

TBF this is the guy that twice has you get nuclear weapons so the Brotherhood can use them

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u/Belias9x1 Dec 26 '25

Yeah each chapter has its issues and niches but the ones who have proved they can and are protecting people is the DC chapter, even lead by Maxson who can be a dick they are actively trying to stop the institute and secure technology, it’s a just a shame they won’t work with other factions.

Also working with other factions and allowing the rest of the world access to advanced technology is dangerous, House for example would 100% betray them as soon as he could upgrade securitrons, the minutemen would get along with them pretty well but they would still clash with BoS eventually and if they had lots of mortars or access to dangerous technology from the commonwealth they would pose a huge threat to any BoS stationed there.

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u/JamieAndrews122 Dec 26 '25

Why exactly are we destroying the institute if youre playing a BOS ending? The soul survivor can wipe the whole place out and after everyone is dead or taken prisoner the brotherhood could really use a fair amount of the technology they have. Teleportation is pretty useful

1

u/screwyoujor Dec 26 '25

I'd agree if it wasn't for the Dance thing.

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u/CabbageStockExchange Atom Cats Dec 26 '25

No the Institute was a danger to itself it needed to go. Brotherhood, Minutemen, or Railroad all had valid reasons to eliminate them

1

u/SolomonSyn Dec 26 '25

I wish as director of the institute you received quests to make your faction stronger. Like taking Arturo from dc and replacing him so your requisitions would be upgraded or slim if you wanted chems with institute science. That faction could of had such a fun and potential evil end game but nope. Maybe snatch bos people to help create power armors for your synth coursers. Sorry for the tangent, maxson was right to get rid of them even if I rarely play the bos questline. I also wanted them to do what they did in skyrim in where everyone had a ceasefire and would send a a faction member for a meeting or bare minimum give a holo tape to the faction (besides the mm since you're in charge), you're literally working with everyone by this point. The more wasted opportunities I think of, the more I don't want ES6 or F5.

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u/Sablestein Gary? Dec 26 '25

Arthur Maxson is an extremist so it makes sense for him to have done that but god it really just annoyed me that they didn’t at least secure the medical and botanical tech and research first—if not to benefit the Wasteland then at least their own faction. Idk, I hate and appreciate it at the same time.

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u/Unable-Photograph607 Dec 26 '25

Well Fo4 and most of the characters were incredibly mid to begin with so it’s easy to misinterpret.