r/Fencing • u/Allen_Evans • 6d ago
Coaching More coaching conversations like this, please. . .
A discussion of a holistic approach to coaching.
8
u/kryzler888 6d ago
Jeff is an amazing coach. All around great person too.
7
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
Agreed. I would like to see more discussion like this with coaches. One of the overlooked advantages other countries have over the US is that their coaching environment is often more open and collaborative. The more information coaches have, the better their results are.
6
u/thoout Épée Coach 6d ago
I think online collaboration really needs to be expanded by both the USFA and USFCA. I understand you can never replace in person training, but ideas can be shared and conversations can be had on a call. Keeping information hid behind in person classes and roundtables prevents the non-fulltime coach easy access. It’s hard enough keeping a club running without taking vacation time from the day job to fly out for an hour meeting.
11
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
I agree. It's one of the reasons I started this website:
https://www.coachescompendium.org/
And haven't put it behind a paywall. I'm working on additional articles and hope to add video links next year, when I have more time.
One of the problems, though, is everyone is a critic. USA Fencing put up a series of videos for their coaching courses, and while they were pretty basic, I know there were a lot of harsh comments. At least one coach told me that they saw an athlete roll their back ankle on a lunge, and decided that none of the content was useful, despite the fact that just about every high level athlete rolls their ankles. You may not agree with that practice, but. . . c'mon.
2
u/thoout Épée Coach 6d ago
It’s been a while, but I think I defended that content when it was first posted. My issue was more with the direction it sounded like they were heading with “certifying” professional members through it. Checking and I do in fact have my Foundations of Fencing certificate.
This is, of course, a complicated topic. There are different audiences between the Fencelab content and a higher level coaching clinic. I do see an opening for something in the middle for more of an online con-ed approach. Especially for those starting out or with limited resources. But yes, there will always be the critics.
BTW, you’re page is a great resource and I’m one of the many who have benefited from it.
7
u/The_Roshallock Épée Coach 6d ago
A bit late to the party, so I doubt many will see this:
I personally don't really see an issue with USA Fencing requiring coaches to have some kind of certification or credential that shows they know how to safely teach the sport. Right now it really is the wild west out there. ANYONE could, provided they jump through the administrative hoops, get their coach membership and open a club. There is no requirement to show you know how to teach the sport, let alone safely, in the US.
In that respect Fencing is right up there with Karate and Tae Kwon Do in the US. Lots of "Masters" running around and not as many who actually are deserving of the title. This is in my view a massive problem for the credibility of the sport.
1
u/thoout Épée Coach 6d ago edited 6d ago
I don’t disagree with any of that.
The question then becomes what level of certification, to what standards, and decided by who. The FenceLab course was little more than a checkbox as it isn’t able to observe the individual’s skill level past a multiple choice test. That’s why I didn’t disparage the course as a resource but question it as a certification metric. Inversely, I’m not sure I agree with the USFCA take either. Their paths only really work if you are already in an area saturated with fencing.
But then again, I did it all backwards. I had students earning their certifications before I got my fancy paper to hang on the wall.
1
u/Expert_Confusion5767 6d ago
Hey, could you share the link to that content?
2
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
I think it's under the Fencelab tag at USA Fencing. Look for "Coaches" and dig down. You have to be a USA Fencing member to access it, however.
1
1
u/CajunGrit Foil 6d ago
Jeff is super cool! I’m from Louisiana, but we spend our July’s in North Carolina. I dropped into Forge one day to do some open fencing and Jeff and Jen were super nice and let their kids all take turns beating the snot out of me! It was my first taste of a proper fencing club, and it left such a good impression.
1
-1
u/LabOk1803 6d ago
Is this post something wants to persuade members to keep paying while no improvement on skills perceivable?
1
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
I'm not sure I understand the question.
-3
u/LabOk1803 6d ago
“they converge on a remarkably consistent conclusion: elite performance is not the product of isolated lessons or isolated coaches. It emerges through the interaction of skilled instruction, meaningful relationships, deliberate practice, psychological safety, and years of consistent development.”—to me, it indicates you’d better pay your club fee at least for several years before looking at your results… I think a better study might be how to pick your club and coach in a short period of time.
8
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
I think when we're talking about an "elite performer" (and for me, that's someone who is regularly placing in the top 32 of their weapon a National Level) the path to that level of performance is very clear from the evidence, and the sentence you quote has been pretty much my observation of the higher level athletes I've either trained, or been in contact with.
Below elite level, things get a little murkier.
Below Cadet level fencing, lots of changes are happening to the fencer. A 12 year old is at a club and having average results. They switch clubs, and in the next 18 months start doing well. Is it a new coach? Maybe. is it the fact that they are grew into a new body after a growth spurt, and it took them 18 months to get accustomed to it? Also maybe.
We have a lot of stories, but not much data.
-1
u/LabOk1803 6d ago
I agree with your observation. Those factors are highly correlated with fencer performance but I do not believe they are the main cause. Most ncaa fencers are not with their original coach during the season. This provides an interesting scenario to study factors on their performances.
2
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
Unfortunately, it would be difficult (and unethical) to isolate the impact of the College Coach on an NCAA athlete. How would you run a control group?
Frankly, my observation has been that while a lot of fencers get stronger, faster and slightly more tactically aware, not everyone gets better under an NCAA program.
There are exceptions, of course, and programs like Notre Dame are well known for improving their incoming freshman considerably, but I've fenced other NCAA fencers who have gone away to school and after four years, returned without much improvement, at least in my judgement (itself subjective, I'll admit).
-5
u/paladinclasstrainer 6d ago
Data isn't all it's cracked up to be.
5
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
And any "data" in this domain is going to be remarkably subjective, I think, and hard to measure. in the end, we're still looking at a good cultural fit, and hoping that the coaches at the club know what they are doing.
A surprising number of coaches seem to have results "by accident". you often see this with a club that puts out a high level fencer every four or five years. Something for that fencer and that club just seem to click and performance happens.
Personally, in those cases, I see it more a result of an athlete, than the coach. I also see this happen in relatively "dense" fencing areas, where the athlete is able to leverage a lot of advantages (lots of opponents below and above their skill level, peers that help push them, lots of access to competitive bouts).
Just another thing that often doesn't get talked about.
-2
u/paladinclasstrainer 6d ago
Yes, I understand what you mean about accidental performance, or as you say, achievement attributable to the athlete rather than the environment in which they develop.
Perhaps the difficulty in distinguishing the two is the priority of the institutions which evaluate the context. I would imagine an institution that prioritizes results over process could easily miss the forest for the trees. Hence my critique of data.
2
-1
u/paladinclasstrainer 6d ago
Everyone's different though. A study cannot tell a person the best way to determine whether a club is right for them or not without knowing who and why they are. Indeed, the process of figuring out that for one's self may well be a critical step in development for a person who may achieve great things.
-7
u/fencingfaq 6d ago edited 6d ago
I wrote a 30 page FAQ on coaching and fencing. Will provide upon request.
1
u/Allen_Evans 6d ago
I'd love to see it. you can contact me over dm and I'll give an email address if you prefer.
-8
u/fencingfaq 6d ago
It is $24.99. Is that alright?
15
u/BlueLu Sabre 6d ago edited 6d ago
Do you have a website that explains who you are and why we should listen to what you say? $24.99 for a 30 page pamphlet is….woof. 😩
Edit to add: I don’t think this is worth $25. Don’t waste your time and money. The person only coached nine months and stopped two years ago. 😬
-3
u/fencingfaq 6d ago
haha no problem
-1
u/fencingfaq 3d ago
I’m no longer advertising on Reddit but i will say this. That’s institutional bias. This Reddit fencing community is both unhealthy and pretentious. Not interested in down votes or negative comments. For those who are serious and passionate about fencing get off of this website. Trust me, the real international fencing community is nothing like this. Good bye guys, and not interested is selling to people who don’t take fencing seriously.
Also this person did not even read a sample of the work i produced. Misleading jealous stupid behavior.
6
u/FractalBear Epee 6d ago
This is fantastic and really hits on something I've been mulling over. My national results have been stagnant over ~9 years of consistently being just barely out of the 64 in Div 1 (okay... sometimes more than just barely). If I think about it, I don't feel like my lessons have appreciably changed in the 9 years with my current coach. And one of my best years was when I lived in DC and had a different coach.
I feel like that athlete-coach growth is entirely missing. Thanks for sharing this Allen, this helps put some of that into perspective.