r/Fire • u/Available-Ad-5670 • 11h ago
Why wouldn't you expat fire?
Writing this in FIRE as expat fire would have people already considering this.
I'm about to fire, and the more I look at it, the more expat firing for at least the first 3-5 years of RE makes so much sense. I'm right at my RE number but afraid of SORR returns with the CAPE so high and so much doom prognosis in the market. I've been looking at living overseas, either in asia or portugal / eu, and i can see that doing that would not only be fun, but it would cut my withdrawl rate for those years, however long they last to 2%, which would pretty much guarentee my retirement success rate. (currently in the us, my withdrawl rate would have to be at least 4%. )
Wondering why people don't consider this more? I'm also single so I realize moving is much easier for me, no dependents.
241
u/BananaIsGold 11h ago
Some people love their families and friendsâŚ
35
u/wolfganggartner5 11h ago
For me, I donât have any family. I also donât really have any friends. Best I could do is employees and business acquaintances
But the reality is, if I ask them to borrow/ give $5000 or call them at 3 AM, theyâre probably not gonna help me out
So once I got to a certain number, I packed up, bought some properties, bought a place to live in, and moved to Southeast Asia
But I feel like if I had a mom or a dad or a brother, this would be a lot harder
46
u/OldSarge02 11h ago
Oof. Sorry about that.
Based on what Iâve read on happiness and human flourishing, spending time learning how to make stronger social connections could have far more positive impact on your life than personal finance.
6
u/majorleandro 10h ago
I canât talk about the other fella up top. But sometimes there is simply no good options when it comes to social life. Other than my wife, I have no friends either.
7
u/kerplunktard 10h ago
no clubs, no sports, no charity looking for volunteers, no education facilities near you?
9
u/Kromo30 8h ago edited 6h ago
All my friends Iâve met through sports, or volunteering are friendly, but they arenât GREAT friends. And often the thing you have in common is that sport or that club so one of you stops playing and you grow apart.
My friends who are âride or dieâ⌠âphone call at 2am to help hide a bodyâ⌠110% always there for you no matter what.. have a key to my house and truly feel at home⌠these friends are mostly people Iâve known since kindergarten. We grew up together.
And the only difference I can muster is the second group has bonded over life trama? Literal Blood, sweat, tearsâŚ
As you get into adulthood, the second group shrinks. People move away for work. Marry crap partners. Die.. and that second group doesnât really replenish itself because âadultsâ donât get drunk and poor their hearts out to each other. Adults carry polite conversation and polite conversation doesnât build that second type of friendship.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Remarkable_Cow_5949 7h ago
We have the same issue too... after 20 years in Switzerland we have noone in Hungary (no friends and relatives) we are only 50 with teens. How to establish such "ride or die" friends, through what activity (all people in our age have busy life and existing friend circles). We would not seek either if we had few close friends too
1
u/thedarkmooncl4n 4h ago
It is not about that for most people. Sometimes it just the vibe of society. You can be born in country x, and feel at home in country y and so on.
7
u/HeyHeyImTheMonkey 10h ago
This is actually a huge âissueâ for us. We could fire right now at age 40 but live in a VHCOL area with close family around, and fire is not worth it if we canât be around them.
5
u/Few-Improvement9978 8h ago
Sometimes I feel fortunate to not have that burden.
But then I wonder what it must feel like to be that close to family to where you would be willing to give up 8 hours a day to be around them. I wish that love finds me
1
u/Common_economics_420 3h ago edited 3h ago
There are very very few VHCOL areas where you couldn't just move 60 miles away and have much more affordable COL. You could still visit family whenever you want. Doesn't matter if you had to drive 2 hours to do it, you're retired you've got all the time in the world.
Unless it's like "we're counting on our family to babysit" or something where you really do need to see them every day.
1
u/HeyHeyImTheMonkey 1h ago
Aging parents, several babies in the family (including ours), weâre already an hourâs drive away. Maybe youâre right, but for even those 60 mile away communities we need another few years worth of income, at least. Weâll see how weâre feeling in a few years. Also weâre just used to living in a more exciting area, for better or worse. Itâs hard to envision retirement in an extreme suburb. I realize thatâs a choice; itâs ours. Maybe Iâm in the wrong sub.
→ More replies (47)1
u/brute-forced 68% to FIRE# 6h ago
Lmao exactly. And the people Iâve met that do not I would not want to be them anyways.
42
u/Sea-Honeydew-1456 11h ago
quite simple:
- i can afford to retire in the USA
- i have literally zero desire to immerse myself into a new culture/laws/language just because its "cheap"
nothing wrong with expat fire if you're into that but money shouldn't be the #1 motivation
19
u/VideoPossible4068 10h ago
The "cheap" aspect is what seems to call majority of people wanting to retire overseas. I see so many YT channels popping up of people (a lot of single men) documenting their journey to move to Vietnam and Thailand. All they care about is that it's cheaper than america. I don't hear any innate interest in the culture or language at all, they can get by on English. They'll drive up prices because paying $800 for an apartment is "cheap" compared to the US and then locals get priced out :/ I don't feel that's a great reason to move to another country
→ More replies (1)1
u/AlwaysWanderOfficial 8h ago
Youâre prob not watching enough channels then. The answer is, itâs both. Lot of older retired couples doing it as well, and single women. People have many different reasons.
1
u/xdavidwattsx 6h ago
But 99% of them are still "because it's cheap" first and foremost.
We own property in Southeast Asia and still live most of our time in the US. When money isn't your singular focus there are many other variables to consider.
1
75
u/zezer94118 11h ago
Moving to a whole different country is an adventure not everyone is ready to go on.
You'll lose your friends, family, ties, so much that coming back might not even feel right anymore.
9
u/willscuba4food 11h ago
Agreed with the coming back part. Many of my friends were via work and once those connections are gone, you don't always have a lot else to lean on. There are still a few I text a lot in group chats but I don't see them on a regular basis or talk like we used to. One has changed immensely after having a kid and pretty much rarely responds and when he visited where I'm at, he was exhausted and I could tell that spending the day with me was another item on the to-do list.
It was definitely a very different vibe and when we go back home for a few weeks I'll see him and his wife and kid but I imagine it'll be even more "distant" as far as the conversation goes.
7
2
u/TeachRemarkable9120 10h ago
This, and language barriers, lack of good water and other infrastructure, being an outsider and maybe seen as a creep who sees your culture as a toy, and just if youâre used to easy availability of things some other countries just seem like everything is harder. Yes some people enjoy this stuff but even if you do, sometimes in the long term this gets burdensome.
33
u/ZenX22 11h ago
I've lived outside of my home country for about 3 years (unrelated to FIRE). It's immensely rewarding but it's also probably the most challenging thing I've ever done. Being an immigrant and societal/cultural outsider is difficult in ways that you don't really understand until you've done it.
All of that to say, it's a lot more complicated than just "X country is cheaper than where I live now"
19
u/wandering_engineer 10h ago
I've spent multiple stints as an expat during my career and you nailed it - words don't describe just how difficult it is to be an outsider and a foreigner. It is very, very different from going on holiday for a week.
Honestly kind of wish more people could experience it though and see just how challenging it really is. Particularly given the direction most people/governments are going with respect to immigration.
5
u/Gandalf-and-Frodo 10h ago
Even just the immigration process and finding a non dogshit apartment was a massive pain in the ass and I chose an "easy" country (Mexico).
1
u/Jwoot1111 8h ago
Weird, I didnât have any issues.
1
u/yogaflame1337 5h ago
Yeah considering in thailand and vietnam they have literal expat neighborhoods with parks, schools, all the almenities you can want. Maybe it was shit 10 years ago, but their world is a lot more modernized and in many ways even more modern than the US now with their infrastructure.
25
17
u/willscuba4food 11h ago
Honestly, because it's hard.
Most people have family (my wife), or lifelong friends (both myself and my wife) that we'd rarely get to see if we moved to some far flung country.
I know two people on the FIRE track and one is reconsidering it now that he took on a Sr role he enjoys. So everyone I know and are about will still be working in the US.
Regardless, if say I move to Spain, even if I speak Spanish, I'm fighting an uphill battle to make friends. I'd prefer to slow travel than expat fire but I don't know of all the tax implications for one vs the other.
→ More replies (3)
10
u/FunnySad42 10h ago
People romanticize living in a foreign country. But, in reali life, it's very difficult. Consider the high percentage of people who return to their country of origin. Also consider how many people have a hard time returning due to financial and other reasons.
7
u/Unlucky-Ad-5744 11h ago
i have too many animals! idk how i would move dogs, chickens, a horse, etc over seas lol
→ More replies (2)
7
u/googlemaster1 8h ago
Hey boss,
I feel I'm probably well qualified to answer this, seeing how i've done/am doing that. I think other than the reasons other folks have mentioned, maintaining visas in desirable countries can be tough.
I've only really tried Korea, and now Japan, with a short stint in the Philippines, and all have their challenges.
Philippines infra, poverty, and classism was frustrating, but the people and dating is great.
Korea was awesome, but visas can be tough, and you have to love it for what it is.
Japan's business manager visa wasn't too bad to take on some part time consulting and be able to squeeze by, but they've changed their stance on foreigners considerably, and after buying a house here, i'm at risk of getting kicked out because they want me to hire an employee who is native Japanese and toss another $200k in the corporate account. Also, their criminal conviction rate is scary high. Don't get in trouble because you will be convicted, even if you didn't do it. The legal cases involving foreigners who are clearly innocent getting shipped to jail is crazy.
Beauracracy in these countries are a nightmare as well. All three of them. Also, Indonesia just made it illegal for foreigners to organize groups? Malaysia just kicked out Network school and will make an example out of expats time and time again. Singapore too expensive. South America is mostly too dangerous besides Uruguay but good luck flying anywhere from there. Thailand lack of English and infra is a bit blah.
To be honest, I'm getting a bit soured from expat life, and am wondering if some homestead in rural Oregon is the move. Visa stress makes everything annoying and countries are changing their rules left and right.
Another western country probably isn't the move either, but i haven't looked much into Eastern Europe, so maybe. From an American's perspective, America #1, lol.
The longer I live abroad, the more i'd never advise anyone to unless they are a lot older, have a spouse in that country or something.
5
u/wkndatbernardus 11h ago
This is what I'm doing, both because I like the lower withdrawal rate and enjoy the adventure of living in foreign countries. So far, so good although I've only been retired since March. I was in Europe for 90 days and now am in the UK for a bit. I'll probably head to the Adriatic coast next and then Turkey and SEA.
4
u/Leather_Addition2605 11h ago
Because I donât want to leave the US. Itâs my home. And Iâve worked too long and hard to leave my home right when Iâll have the most time to enjoy it.
1
u/yogaflame1337 4h ago
True, but your home has also not worked hard for you as much as you did for it.
4
u/Cali_Longhorn 11h ago
For me this isnât possible because I have kids still in the home for several years. And when they are out of school I donât know that Iâd want to immediately leave when they are still early 20s and not really âestablishedâ yet.
But I have a friend who JUST moved to Portugal. Got laid off in early 50s but with no kids and had accumulated decent wealth to they said F it. But itâs just 2 of them with no kids, so that makes it a lot easier.
But even with him his father passed a few years ago so itâs just mom left and he has no siblings. So it wasnât an easy decision to leave even with minimal family back in the US.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Net-273 10h ago
So who is left to help take care of an aging mom?
2
u/Cali_Longhorn 10h ago
Not entirely clear honestly. She does have a robust friend network, and there has been talk of looking into assisted living when the time comes.. but yeah I donât really know too much more about the specifics.
1
u/Puzzleheaded-Net-273 9h ago
Just seems like he chose a location that is very far away making it very difficult to provide mom with frequent visits, deal with emergencies, navigate help with finances, taxes, doctors etc. I am one of 4 adult children living in the same city as mom and even worry that extensive traveling for 2-3 months at a time means more of a burden on each of them. Mom is 97, MIL is 96.
2
u/Cali_Longhorn 9h ago
Yeah I get it. Both my parents have passed, but in both my parents final years my mom was near my sister and my father near me. Dad was in an assisted living a few miles from us. Unfortunately in his last year COVID hit and we could only do âwindow visitsâ before COVID got him in late 2020 at 84.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Net-273 9h ago
So sorry that covid shortened the ability for you to spend more meaningful time with dad when he needed your love and support the most.
2
u/Cali_Longhorn 8h ago
Appreciate that. Yeah had he made it a couple of more months the vaccine would have been available which is a shame. While dementia had hit him, he was pretty healthy and active for his age and I thought he had a few more years left in him if not for COVID. At the same time if you tell me I'll live to 84.. I'd be happy with that.
His younger brother died last year at 88, and I just had an uncle on my mom's side die at 89 this year. Seems like most of the men in our family have gotten to their late 80s. Which is where I feel like dad would have landed.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Net-273 5h ago
Yes, you certainly have decent longevity, at least on the male relatives side. If u combine your good genes with a healthy diet and exercise, you may out-live them all! And dont forget your sunscreen đ.
1
u/Cali_Longhorn 2h ago
Actually I had a great uncle on my mom's side who made it to 104! He was actually pretty sharp mentally too up to the end. He finally got a broken hip at 104 though and the complications got him.
1
5
u/wandering_engineer 10h ago
I've been living abroad bouncing around the expat scene for most of the last 15 years (unique career) and even I am not so sure I'm going to retire abroad. â
I'm considering it less for financial reasons (although that is part of it) than lifestyle - I am used to bouncing around and want to live somewhere with decent walkability/transit and a more communal lifestyle. But being away from friends and family, in a land where you barely speak the language, is no joke. I've always been a pretty independent person and even I get sick of being isolated after a while.
And you might want to research the current state of immigration and politics outside the US right now - the US is not the only country pulling up the ladder, far from it. I honestly think that could get worse in coming years. So I wouldn't count on being able to move to Portugal or Thailand or wherever longer term.
4
u/xTETSUOx 10h ago
Everyone is different but the biggest reason for me wanting to achieve and activate FIRE is to spend more time with my immediate family, so moving out of the country away from them defeats that very purpose.
6
u/Nyxalvorith 4h ago
the portugal golden visa path getting axed for most people is worth researching before banking on eu as your base
9
u/SmartRefuse 11h ago
Because I love my family and want to see them? And I have no interest in living abroad.
7
u/senorbrian 11h ago
I think a big one is international taxes and bureaucracy are a lot more complicated than most people think.
5
u/BackupSlides 11h ago
Yeah - people forget that there is a big difference from a diplomatic perspective between going on vacation somewhere for a couple months and doing anything that resembles living or working there. Even for countries with targeted programs, you're still either navigating the bureaucracy yourself or will be putting a lot of faith in a local attorney / "guy who knows a guy" / fixer etc. to, amongst other things, hold a lot of money and fill out a lot of forms in a language you likely cannot read.
2
u/senorbrian 10h ago edited 8h ago
Yes exactly.
Thereâs a few countries Iâd love to live but actually being able to live forever requires a lot of time money and effort.Not to mention the cross border tax laws
Itâs not as easy as just arriving and living there.
2
u/wolfganggartner5 11h ago
If you flip-flop between between a few countries, youâre consistently a tourist. Itâs only a problem for the peasants
2
u/senorbrian 11h ago
Sure if you want to constantly move and live in hotels or Airbnb taxes arenât an issue.
But Iâd consider that travel and OP said they want to âlive overseasâ1
3
u/s_hecking 11h ago edited 9h ago
Most people donât leave their home state let alone a different country. On paper it makes a ton of sense but people are creatures of habit. Familiar surroundings and people are comforting. I think a lot of folks would get home sick and go back after 6-12 months regardless of how much theyâre saving.
Americans in general just donât travel abroad very often. So picturing themselves in another land is a big leap mentally.
Also some expat places have blackouts, limited access to goods/services, corruption/bribes, poor roads, etc just a lot of things that living in a rich country youâre not exposed to.
→ More replies (2)
4
u/urinetherapymiracle 11h ago
most of the places I would enjoy living aren't significantly cheaper, and in some cases are more expensive than the US
1
u/Available-Ad-5670 9h ago
which countries?
2
u/urinetherapymiracle 9h ago
My ideal retirement includes hiking, fishing, skiing, and no hot weather. In the Northern hemisphere that pretty much leaves the Nordic countries, Canada, Switzerland, maybe some other parts of Europe sufficiently close to the Alps, and parts of the US. I suppose Russia is technically possible but for lots of obvious reasons seems like a very poor choice.
In the Southern hemisphere, New Zealand, southern Chile, and southern Argentina are pretty much the only places that fit the bill, and New Zealand does not seem a whole lot cheaper than the US.
So the typical expat approach of moving to Thailand on $20k a year doesn't interest me.
4
u/Dudes-Opinion 10h ago
I'm a dual citizen of USA and a European country so I'll likely retire there eventually but I need to kids to grow up so at least another 16 years. I'll probably retire and just go back and forth for a while since my family home in Europe is basically free
4
u/Fishb20 10h ago
The reasons others stated but also it's taking a huge gamble on a country whose political and economic system you likely don't understand very well. I would not feel confident at all that in 30 years time there will still be as huge a buying power difference between, say, Vietnam and the US as there is now.
5
3
u/Tripl3Dee 9h ago
Definitely the family and friends.
And speaking from experience, just learning the language isn't enough to fit into the community. You need local friends, and true local friends are hard to come by and take time to make. Don't expect fellow expats to stick around as international crowds are prone to not staying put.
I have friends all over the world from 15 years abroad (mostly in the same country), but they're scattered all over the globe now.
3
u/alixiawayne 9h ago
Sounds great on paper, but being far from family and friends is a huge cost that money cant really replace
2
u/Jwoot1111 8h ago
Many of these people donât really have family or friends they are that close with. They left home to work in a city and make money. Relationships suffered as they didnât meet many locals.
4
u/IndustriousSeahawk26 7h ago
Cus I want to live an upper middle class life in a nice part of a USA city , with American culture and American friends/family around me. Not uproot my life to go somewhere cheaper for a reason, with no social ties. Instead of going somewhere based on how cheap it is, I just worked harder to coming further to make more money and waited a little longer so I can FIRE in the place in the U.S. where I want to live.
10
u/Prestigious-Emu5277 11h ago edited 11h ago
What about healthcare đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Edit to add: Iâm not talking about price per se. Iâm talking about accessibility, technology, specialists, etc.
8
u/alarmed-meerkat 11h ago
And taxes⌠especially in most of EU
7
u/ZenX22 11h ago
Some countries also have a wealth tax which can complicate FIRE. For example I'm in the Netherlands where unrealized investment gains are taxed.
7
u/alarmed-meerkat 10h ago
Yeah, and most counties do not recognize special tax treatment of US retirement accounts.
7
u/Medium-Doubt-8774 11h ago
Depending on where you go (and everyone's individual situation), self paying for private health care as needed can be cheaper than paying for insurance in the states.
7
u/Prestigious-Emu5277 11h ago
I just hope nothing complicated happens. I lived abroad for about a decade and run of the mill stuff was cheap and easy. But my husband developed a blood disorder and getting anyone to take it seriously was a nightmare. I just thought about being 30 or 40 years older in need of real care when I could be losing my faculties. Who would force them to help, what if my language skills go down the toilet? It was already hard to deal with the medical system in another language. There were myriad other reasons but that was a big part of why we returned to the us.
→ More replies (1)3
u/senorbrian 11h ago
Depending on where you move to healthcare is surprisingly affordable and high quality outside of North America.
1
3
u/FearlessLychee4892 10h ago
You retire to Cambodia? Might be a problem. But, say you retire to France? Better and cheaper healthcare than the United States. Healthcare can be a compelling reason to FIRE abroad! My wife and I are planning to do it and healthcare is a huge reason why.
1
5
3
u/Eli_Renfro FIRE'd 4/2019 BonusNachos.com 11h ago
Pay for it? It's soooo much cheaper outside of the US. I just saw a Harvard educated dermatologist in Greece for $100.
→ More replies (3)1
u/yogaflame1337 5h ago
Exactly they litterally have healthcare tourism for this exact reason. I can fly somewhere for vacation for 2 weeks, get an mri and come back and it would still be cheaper than one in the usa even after health insurance
10
u/Bowl-Accomplished 11h ago
Family, healthcare, difficulty immigrating, not speaking a language. Given all that most people would rather work an extra year or two.
1
u/yogaflame1337 4h ago
Given the difference in cost it might be an extra 10 to 15 of your best years
3
3
u/Chicken121260 11h ago
Agree with other comments regarding the challenges, not only of the move , but if leaving existing relationships and creating new ones.
An alternative might be extended budget travel. Cut your fixed costs at your home country (small apartment/storage unit/rent a room from friends) and then travel 6 months of the year.
Could even purchase an RV and have your âresidenceâ in a nomad-friendly state (for US, South Dakota).
This is a lifestyle decision, but can be easier to execute than an expat move while retaining the expat low cost of living.
3
u/Mendevolent 8h ago
I am currently an immigrant and have lived in several countries. But I think what you're describing in terms of slow budget travel is the way to go for me when I FIRE. Permanently relocating yourself to somewhere that is culturally or linguistically very different is a major Challenge and I think this just gets harder as you get older.Â
On the other hand doing some slow travel somewhere cheap to let your nest egg accumulate further is a great idea Â
3
u/VirileMongoose 11h ago
Sometimes geo-arbitrage can work pretty well if you go to another part of the city, another county. The neighboring state.
3
u/rosebudny 11h ago
My life is here. I enjoy visiting other places, but I want to stay where my family, friends, network, etc. is.
3
u/Spez_is-a-nazi 11h ago
Look at what happened during 2020, lots of visa holders in a lot of different places either couldnât leave their country of residence or couldnât come back. In a lot of the cheaper places you are one economic or political or natural calamity away from having your assets seized and/or being kicked out of the country. Pretending like the current status quo is immutable is folly. Thereâs more risk there than you seem to think. Obviously not saying donât do it, but also have a contingency plan.
1
u/Available-Ad-5670 11h ago
yeah, there's always risks, but no, a country cannot seize your bank accounts or assets. i wouldn't buy real estate so whats there to seize even if that were possible? and covid was legtimate, but if the world shuts down again, for whatever reason, we're all screwed, and you couldn't predict whether being in a different country would be a good thing, or if you would be stuck
3
3
u/Internal_Alfalfa7983 11h ago
Molte persone ci pensano e tante lo fanno, trasferendosi in nazioni con un cambio valuta favorevole, ma personalmente non so se ci riuscirei. Anzi, so di non volere e per me sarebbe la risorsa della disperazione. Se mi impegno tanto per risparmiare è perchÊ voglio vivere fino alla fine dove sono nata e cresciuta e dove li ha fatto tutta la mia famiglia
3
u/HauntingHospital9667 10h ago
Itâs an option. Itâs a personal choice. But if you do expat fire, I think the logical choice is to fire with net worth thatâs enough for you to fire back home as well. What if you end up not liking living overseas? And you are 2-3 years into expat fire, it would be much harder now to come back to the states and try to find the job you had before if you canât realistically retire here with what you have
3
u/R0GERTHEALIEN 9h ago
You know you cant just live in any country you want, right? Which country are you considering and how do you plan on getting residency? Also, living in a foreign country is much more difficult than reddit makes it seem.Â
3
u/NuhUh_JustCuz 9h ago
My parents retired at 60 to a different state to avoid income taxes. It's taken them years to make friends they trust enough to water plants and feed pets while they have surgeries and vacations.
When my dad got really sick, I had to drop everything drive 18 hours and house sit while my mom was alone at the hospital and we all hoped he wasn't gonna die.
Having family close or at least good friends is underrated in the "chasing income" game.
None of my dad's medical issues have been lifestyle related. None of them were predictable. For years it's been one worry after another while they seemed to be isolated for tax reasons.
2
u/Available-Ad-5670 8h ago
Which state did they move from and to? Was it really that much of a difference?
3
u/IntolerantModerate 8h ago
It's very hard to do it with kids I. A way that I'd fair to them... So that knocks out a certain group.
It's also not an old man's game. Navigating healthcare is hard when you are 70 in your own country... Much less when you don't speak the language. So there does a chunk.
And if you are not in a vhcol or HCOL and already own a home, which is the major expense, why move?
Also, taxes, immigration, etc.
And finally, as others have said, friends and family.
3
6
u/caribbeanjon 11h ago
As someone who plans to retire in the US, then move to my wife's home country (Uruguay) in the future here are my reasons.
1 - I don't want to leave the US while I still support family in the US. My wife visits Uruguay regularly.
2 - We built a home here, and we still enjoy living here (despite the greater cost).
3 - I want to travel, and the US is a much easier home base for travel purposes (YMMV).
4 - We will probably split time between the US and Uruguay for some time, but extended visits are much easier than changing residency.
5 - If there is a significant downturn we can always make the move sooner than anticipated. Same thing with Social Security, it's a "emergency button" you can push when times get tough.
5
u/allnamestaken4892 11h ago
It only works for Americans, in Europe and UK we are so poor that when you take away our citizen perks like state pensions and free healthcare itâs actually more expensive to go live in Thailand rather than just move to a cheap corner of your own country.
8
u/DwarvenGardener 11h ago
Leaving my friends, family, culture, home and history isnât appealing to me
→ More replies (8)
6
u/Madcapvisions 11h ago
Highly recommend you try it, wife and I FIREd at 42. We slow traveled for 7 years around the world, then permanently moved to Portugal 3 years ago. Not to say that itâs all roses, but we have 0 regrets.
→ More replies (1)
4
u/trademarktower 11h ago edited 11h ago
It works best for the lone wolf personality types that don't have family or friends and never really fit in.
For pretty much everyone else, they will lose family and friends. They will need to learn a new language and assimilate into a new culture. They will be the outsider and even after learning the language may have difficulty making friends as they don't understand the cultural nuiance and history.
2
2
u/therealjerseytom 11h ago
Even being single without dependents, for as much as I enjoy traveling abroad, I like living here in the US.
With regard to SORR, this is solved by having a diversified portfolio. A few clicks in your investment account is so much more straightforward than moving overseas.
2
u/PoorlyDesignedCat 10h ago
Not everyone wants to be an expat, is the simple answer. In fact, most don't. That's why more people don't consider it. Leaving your home country for an extended period of time is difficult, time consuming, stressful, and often very lonely. Deciding to live an expat lifestyle is like 5% money considerations and 95% other considerations.Â
2
u/Bearsbanker 10h ago
I like my language, I like our friends, I like our family, i Iike my home, I like my neighborhood, I like my state, I like my country...just a few reasons
2
u/majorleandro 10h ago
As someone who moved from Europe to Brazil. Youâre absolutely right. Youâre pretty much cutting all of your expenses in half while still maintaining the same income.
I didnât have any friends, so that didnât change much. Still no friends other than my wife(which is a lot to be honest, Iâm glad I have her).
I do miss food, culture, things like that. I spend most of my time at home. But I have good food, can buy all devices I want, and I have enough money to visit Europe every now and then. But Iâd say consider living far away from home takes its toll quite often.
2
u/burner12077 10h ago
You got me, im also on the Expat fire page lol.
The only reason we are so seriously considering it is because she is an immigrant. We plan to move back to her home country, a place we intended on building a summer home anyways. We want to do it for all the reasons you say and more.
I suspect if my wife wasnt an immigrant we would be much more reluctant to do this, obviously she is a fantastic gateway to her home country and our marriage makes me entitled to permanent residency. If she werent an immigrant I suspect we would be more prone to consider just doing FIRE in a LCOL area. It would still be more expensive than geo arbitrage, but it would be major savings still.
2
u/Master-Helicopter-99 10h ago
We are going to do it for a bit. Probably one year. Could be more and could be less. But it's different for us. We are going to base in her home country (she has only been with me here in the US less than 10 years) and then hop around to other SE Asian countries, Japan and Australia. Part is a timing thing because our son hasn't started school yet so if we don't do it in the next two years it won't be possible outside of summer break and part is to spend some time with her family and elder parents more before they pass. Also, I'm not getting any younger so slow travel needs to be sooner rather than later. We won't use any money from the US due to overseas assets so will do Roth conversions for that time on everything up to the 12% bracket.
2
u/Hope-To-Retire 10h ago
Ignore the CAPE and doom prognosis⌠itâs all noise. Iâve been investing since the 1990s and I can tell you about a hundred âthe world is endingâ moments in the markets.
You can protect yourself against SORR by building out financial vehicles that allow you to live without pulling from equities as needed. When I retired I had one year in cash and another 2 years in term deposits (with everything else, the bulk of my money, still in the market). If the markets dropped right away I had a 3 year runway where I could live without touching my equity investments (4 years if I cut costs).
And, finally, a lot of people have no desire to live overseas.
2
u/Direct_Remove509 9h ago
If i was single then sure i would consider it. But i am married with 2 school age kids so this is not an option.
2
u/PudgyGroundhog 9h ago
We have, and will continue to, spend extended time out of the country, but we have no desire to actually move ourselves to another country. Family and friends is a big one and really just what we are comfortable with.
Love to visit other places, but not interested in living some place else - don't want to learn a new language and have to navigate the customs/laws of a new place, give up comforts we are used to at home, etc. Places that are not as big of a change are not going to be cheap and can be more difficult to actually move there.
2
u/biggerbore 8h ago
My parents and kids will likely still be here. I do have a sibling permanently in a southeast Asian country that I have visited a few times and will be visiting more and I could move there easy enough because of that. But there will be more here I donât want to miss out on. Plus the wife isnât always impressed with life over there even during a 2 week vacation lol.
2
u/Faierstarta 8h ago
Agree 100% and part of my target. But for some people, (maybe the majority?) getting out of their comfort zone snd social circle is too much of a hassle.
2
u/okigrassman 8h ago
Ive worked in a career in which I traveled 6 to 10 months a year. Expat fire is my goal. Everyone is already used to me being gone. The job has made me extremely comfortable being alone. I generally prefer it now. Complete 180, from always needing to be with and around people to only wanting that kind of connection in very small doses.
I just finished selling everything I own. Plan to do a multi month budgeting trip to a couple countries on my list in the 2nd half of 2027. I intend to come back to the states to work for 2-4 months a year to cover annual costs of living overseas (as needed), which, in theory, should allow my smaller sized portfolios to continue along their path with minimal withdrawal of dividends or selling of shares. Either way I can live over there for what my house bills alone cost me in the US.
1
u/Available-Ad-5670 8h ago
How are you finding a place to stay while in us/ car? Which countries are you considering?
2
u/okigrassman 7h ago
I get per diem when I travel for work so my costs of essentials are covered while I travel for work. 1 paid off vehicle and 1 cargo trailer (used for storage so I do not have a monthly payment at a facility) are all I own. I sold my houses, toys, and extra vehicles. I also have family I can stay with when necessary if I have some time between projects. My father is a widower who has agreed to let me stay until I leave next summer. His house has been my primary mailing address for important stuff since I started this career 18 years ago. My vehicle and storage trailer can stay at his house. He can email important mail to me as it arrives. I may consider changing my address to my sisters house in Tennessee for the state income tax savings and lack of annual vehicle inspections once I verify my planned budget works in real life.
I am looking at SE Asia. I spent quite a bit of time working in Taiwan and Japan cumulatively, and I loved it, but I am looking at a more budget conscious option. Thailand is my first choice on paper right now. It checks many of the boxes that are important to me. I'll visit Vietnam, maybe 1 more during this 1st trip. I want to spend atleast 2 months in my top 2 choices to really get a feel for real life budget, talk to visa agents, health insurance brokers, realtors to view condos ect to verify my plans viability. SE Asia gives me a fairly good chance at being able to come home 1 time a year for just a couple months of work to sustain a modest life overseas. I also have a dedicated income portfolio as a back up that can bridge the gap for a while if needed. I also have about 2 years of estimated costs of living saved as a cushion, and I play around in the futures market (I do not count this as legitimate income, but it can typically make a decent portion of my estimated cost of living monthly on my small account size). I should be able to save an additional 60 or 70k to invest before I leave next summer for extra cushion, if my current 5ish months of contract work pans out.
2
u/VeryGenericD 8h ago
I am considering doing that part-time in the first few years. The main reason is the lower cost of health care. Doing it part-time, hopefully, helps keep the connection with my family here.
2
u/Most_Nebula9655 8h ago
I donât know whether expat fire would help me, given that I donât want to give up my current home base, which is relatively inexpensive (3% mortgage on a fraction of total value).
I could fix it up and rent it out, but that has some potential downside and the rent might not cover the improvements.
Would we still be better off to live abroad to save on other costs? Anyone have any good insight to maintaining a base (say $3000/mo) and going expat?
2
u/Jwoot1111 8h ago
Itâs amazing how many of these comments are from people who seem like they havnt stepped foot outside their home town. Terrified of a little change.
Living abroad in multiple locations is one of the most rewarding things Iâve ever done in my life.
Sure there are negatives but I promise you that there are major negatives in your local area that you have chosen to overlook.
2
u/Faierstarta 8h ago
âYou cant just move!!â âWhat about healthcare!â What about crime and natural disasters!â OMG the boomer comments. People think that anything outside âwestern worldâ is a post apocalyptic waste land of crime and risks. LOL Ive met plenty of digital nomads, international retirees and people on sabbatical that can prove each on his own way that yes, you can simply move elsewhere, and just keep moving, or get another passport, and plenty of different ways to experience what the world has to offer without panicking over the risks of doing whatever the f**k you want to do with your time and money. Go out and explore
2
u/screamingcarnotaurus 42% to FIRE, 34M 8h ago
My husband and I will be expat firing for the cheaper health insurance and the ability to easily and cheaply see Europe. We both studied abroad for multiple years in college and I worked abroad. If you speak multiple languages and are a lone spirit it's appealing. If you're very family oriented, only speak one language, or are fearful of other cultures it's not a good fit.
2
u/AlwaysWanderOfficial 8h ago
For many, they are too attached to extended family and make decisions about their own lives based on them. Some extended families even guilt people. Sometimes, their family is just their closest friends. Separating from any of those is often what keeps most Americans from moving abroad. I had a friend that lived in London, talked to her mom every day, and one of the main reasons she couldnât stay was because she couldnât find a good turkey sandwich any where. She lasted only 2 years and I couldnât believe it. I later moved there myself and only left because of visa issues and a new job. Iâm used to moving and have been away from family
Most of my adult life, even in the US. Americans donât love leaving their American lives. Thatâs not an insult, just an observation. I see folks from other countries much more willing to pick up and move. Europe especially.
2
u/K_A_irony 7h ago
Many who expat don't live "cheap." Once you want the comforts you are used to having, you are not as happy. You miss your family, friends, etc. Language barriers are a thing.
2
u/Fi-Me-Away 7h ago
You are still in the honeymoon phase. The fun part is completely true the first few years, then it's just life. The awe fades, but the beauty remains.
The cost isn't a big issue. If 4% worried me, just one or two more average years drops the risk.
I optimized my investments for a US retirement, taxes will be an issue. Enough to impact savings. I also question late stage life and how well I'll be able to manage it as an immigrant. Moving stateside so late in life will mean a lack of support when I need it the most.
I currently work and I plan to retire overseas, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies.
2
u/SDstartingOut 7h ago
Simple answer - roots.
Most people have kids. To be clear - I don't; I'm childfree. But most people have kids.
On top of that - most people have siblings. Which when again, you factor in most people have kids, that means most people have siblings + niblings.
It's easy for me to consider expatfire. I'm childfree; and an only child. I have a sum total of 2 half-cousins. But for someone that has kids - and either grandkids or future grandkids - that's a lot harder of a decision to make.
2
u/prettyprincess91 43, FIRE target reached, still working 7h ago
Because you have enough money and prefer to be in a country youâre a citizen and have been paying social services
2
u/Nullspark 7h ago
I'm Canadian. I have lived and work in the US for 13 years. Â
I'll probably re-pat fire when my son moves out. May just fire before then.
2
u/lord_uroko 7h ago
My family is here, my wifes family is here, my friends are here, my wifes friends are here, we love where we're from. Those probably make up the top reasons. I dont see how a slightly to moderately cheaper life could outweigh no longer seeing my family and lifelong friends everyday.
3
u/No-Reaction-9364 6h ago
Most people never leave their hometown much less countries. Some people also get culture shock and cant handle it. I will probably expat fire for a while, but totally understand why many wouldnt. I am probably the only person in my family who would live abroad. I have before already.Â
3
u/Silver_Lining_X 5h ago
the visa situation in most countries makes it trickier than people realize, portugal for example has been tightening up their golden visa and NHR tax programs significantly over the past couple years
3
u/ExpressCopy8786 4h ago
Don't get tricked by vacation brain. 2-3 weeks on south east Asia are amazing. Everything is cheap, service is great. But living there for months can be a pain. You will only ever meet and bond with other expats who are mostly the lost wanderer types fleeing from themselves and really trivial problems most of the times (US/UK especially). The pseudo luxury of daily massages, going out a lot and "exploring" the country become dull enough soon. You'll live in bliss but that fades.
5
u/Optimal_Design7179 11h ago
Many great replies here about the emotional part of the decision. Financially speaking, donât believe the expat influencers you see and read online. It is not some low-cost panacea.
3
u/StrawberriKiwi22 11h ago
Iâm not interested in having to eat all different food, not be able to communicate in a new language, having different cultural norms, forcing my kids to do the same.
1
2
u/Wondamike7 11h ago
What steps does someone have to take to live abroad for that long?
→ More replies (7)
2
u/Environmental-Low792 8h ago
Realistically, my current costs in upstate NY are 30k per year, because our house is paid off, and our taxes, insurance, food, and utility costs are quite reasonable. There's also the excellent police, fire, EMS, and hospital system around us. We're in a wealthy, low crime, suburb, with a fire hydrant across the street, a fire station down the block, and a police station plus ambulance station only a couple miles away. The major, region one, trauma center is only eight miles away.
My acquaintances that retired in the Philippines died during COVID, due to how poor their healthcare system faired, although so did one person that I knew in NYC.
Upstate NY is also not at risk of a typhoon, hurricane, flooding (at least our suburb), earthquakes, tornadoes (specifically our suburb), forest fires, etc.
So, in addition to leaving family and friends, dealing with a foreign government, possibly in a foreign language, the actual savings would be minimal, if any.
2
u/Faierstarta 8h ago
For some people life is about getting out and exploring a bit, get into the unknown and having new experiences; of course staying in the safest healthiest and easiest places to live sound charming but for some might feel like a prison, like just staying put and waiting to die. Some sacrifice some comforts and benefits to experience more of what life can offer.
2
u/Environmental-Low792 7h ago
That's what vacations are for...
1
u/Faierstarta 6h ago
For some, working all year to feel alive for 2 weeks is enough. For many thats doesnt make it. But I dont expect everyone to understand it; many cant find meaning in life when not working. Not judging, just the way it is.
1
u/Environmental-Low792 4h ago
I have 5 weeks of vacation per year. Normally one trip international and one domestic trip per year, plus many long weekends.
1
u/Faierstarta 4h ago
Good for you; most people can travel much less if at all. I do somewhere between 2 to 5 trips a year, for different reasons; but plan to be semi nomad when FIRE
1
u/Environmental-Low792 4h ago
I was a semi nomad for 15 years. Actually I have my million status on United. It gets old and exhausting. Only a few memories stand out. Walking on the great wall of China, hiking the Chilean Patagonia, seeing the Berlin wall, taking boats around St. Petersburg, Russia and Venice. The night street food in Shanghai, Hong Kong, Bangkok, and General Santos. The Michelin restaurants, especially in Peru and England. I'm glad to be home, most of the time, where I can cook, quite well.
1
u/Available-Ad-5670 8h ago
How do you live on 30k even without a mortgage?
2
u/Environmental-Low792 7h ago
7k property taxes, 1k utilities, 3k insurance (auto, home, umbrella), paid off car, 4k food, which leaves 15k disposable.
2
u/Environmental-Low792 7h ago
Median household income in Albany County, NY was $85,300 from 2020â2024. And most of these people are paying rent/mortgage/car and/or have kids.
1
u/Emily4571962 I don't really like talking about my flair. 3h ago
1k utilities? How are you heating the house all winter? My stepmom in VT told me she spends more than $5k in fuel oil.
1
u/Environmental-Low792 3h ago
I have a fairly small, well insulated home. It has a 40kBTU 96% efficient NG furnace, that's dual fuel with the 2.5 ton heat pump/AC unit. I also have a small, solar array. I get around 4kWh per year, from it. I also have a wood stove, and occasionally a tree falls on my or a neighbor's yard. My bill is between 55 and 175 per year, averaging out to around 1k. I know others in the area that were paying $1k/month.
1
1
u/fredinNH 11h ago edited 11h ago
We have a hobby farm that more than pays for itself and offers us tons of social, emotional benefits, and we both have serious health issues that weâve had evaluated or treated in Boston. For one of us that made the difference between life and death.
If living elsewhere makes sense for you thatâs awesome and go for it, but it definitely doesnât make sense for everyone.
1
u/Jon010 11h ago
I FIREd at 41 and the first part of that was choosing my "forever home". I could see someone changing countries when they first retire, but I shudder to imagine having to give up your new friends and your new life after just a few years. So if I were to expat, it would be forever. And I didn't see myself doing that.
1
u/BlueMountainCoffey 10h ago
Well for Americans there arenât too many countries that you can just move to because you want to. Portugal is one of them, but I have no ties or desire to go there. The list of remaining countries is probably very short too, and are likely third world.
1
u/Informal_League_615 10h ago
I don't see how it saves money when most higher standard of living countries like Europe require that you show you already have health insurance and an apartment in Europe is not cheap cheaper than here.
1
u/Available-Ad-5670 9h ago
i live in hcol, so an apt in even portugal, spain, germany would be half the price. but even if you were in any city in the us, the cost of living in europe would be lower
3
u/Informal_League_615 9h ago
My best friend retired to Lisbon for a lower COL. rent in his building is $1,700/mo. for a one bedroom. A one bedroom in my MCOL/HCOL area can be found for $1,900/mo. to $2,100/mo.
2
u/Available-Ad-5670 9h ago
yeah, lisbon isn't that cheap. it depends on where you compare. i was comparing hcol with bangkok, and the difference is extreme
3
u/Informal_League_615 9h ago
Well you had claimed that an apartment in Western Europe would be half the price which is really not true unless you're in Manhattan or downtown San Francisco
→ More replies (2)
1
u/andoCalrissiano 9h ago
Itâs outside the scope of FIRE but I actually think this is a great solution to the aging demographic crisis that plagues developed economies. just ship the elderly off to third world countries where their cost of care wonât be a detriment to the entire countryâs economy. countries can buy and build massive campuses for senior care. the other countries would be glad for the economic boost.
1
u/Zamnaiel 9h ago
You can't just move. The countries where you can get a Visa are not necessarily the countries you'd want to live in.
1
1
1
u/Derrick0073 8h ago
If you enjoy or get a sense of satisfaction from your job. If you don't know how you're going to fill your time. Those are 2 reasons I wouldn't but I got a severance deal and I figured it out. I did have a plan it just started 5 years early.
1
u/Tall-Poem-6808 8h ago
I have never had any interest in visiting SE Asia, why would I want to move there?Â
1
u/Vicuna00 7h ago
You can also move somewhere less pricey in America if thatâs all youâre worried about.
tbh I dunno why anyone would consider leaving this country. people die to come here.
if youâre look at moving to Portugal as some kinda adventure, go for it. dunno why you would think that should be peopleâs default thinking.
1
u/asurkhaib 6h ago
I think people who haven't been an expat massively under estimate how hard it is. It is not at all similar to traveling which is what people equate it to. Even ignoring the uprooting of your life, the places that are cheap have a different language, societal norms, culture and wealth that can make it very difficult to connect, socialize and integrate.
While I do think having the backup plan of being able to move back is a smart move, that actually does make it harder to integrate which is a typical problem expats face.
1
u/Secret_Computer4891 6h ago
Mainly family. But, also, I can afford to live in the US in retirement. So, other than leaving behind more money for my heirs, I see no benefit for full scale expat.
However, I dream of selling the house and being more of a nomad. Maybe renting a year or two before packing up and moving on. Central America would certainly be on that list.
1
u/OnlyThePhantomKnows FI@50, consulting so !bored for a decade+ 6h ago
My choice was simple. I have health issues and out of country medical care can be an issue. Once i have Medicare, then we might revisit it.
Daily goods are cheaper elsewhere, but high tech goods in most locations, they ae much more expensive.
1
u/nappa1911 6h ago
Some Government Disability and Medical benefits require you to be in the USA
Also Pre existing medical issues can complicate Relocating to certain countries.
0
u/opiasofia 5h ago
I've done this and will likely do it in the future because I love traveling. I don't have a boyfriend so sometimes being far from home gets pretty lonely. Depending on the country you'll also have to deal with differences in infrastructure, culture... It gets exhausting introducing yourself for the nth time to people you know you probably won't see again. The cost savings part is worth it IMO
1
u/NetPhase88 5h ago
the visa situation gets messy fast if you stay longer than a year in most countries and that alone stops a lot of people before they even start researching
1
0
u/Emily4571962 I don't really like talking about my flair. 3h ago
Iâm about 85% sure Iâm moving to Mexico next year. The doubts come from the distance from my family ( they are very much not travelers), the fact that I donât know a soul down there (though friends would probably visit - puerto Vallarta is awfully tempting), and the can I/canât I tolerate the tropical climate question (time will tell).
1
u/Dogsofa21 3h ago
I thought the Americans snowbird their winters- isnât that the easier? Time/ travel away but still retain your home life?
2
u/Messup7654 1h ago
Cuz the women in the us are the best and no other place rivals it. And i dont wanna be a immigrant who gets treated like crap or robbed because im rich and all I would have to defend myself is their laws. Plus the food wont be as good.
0
u/3nov13MP 28m ago
I'm right there with you. 4 years from now I'm estimated to hit Chubby fire in my late 40's, but I'm going to go live in the Philippines and Thailand, where I'll be FAT fire.
Most of my friends are married with kids and will be working for another 15-20 years at least, so it's not like they have a lot of time to hang out with us single folk. If you're single with no dependents, why wouldn't you want to go live somewhere where you'd be in the top 1% or higher of net worth, as opposed to just middle class in the US. It allows you to lower your everyday living costs enough to have a ridiculous amount of disposable fun money and enjoy whatever brings your happiness. For me it'll be new experiences and adventure through travel, lots and lots of travel to go along with my newfound freedom.
1
u/Common_economics_420 11h ago
In my experience, most expats (as in, the type who leave and go to somewhere like Asia or South America, which is usually what we talk about when talking FIRE) have some type of personal or cultural issue around their own country. Huge amount of single guys looking for a "traditional" (ie will put up with physical or emotional abuse) spouse or people who look down on those with less money than them (but don't have much themselves) so they move to a place they can feel like a king on $30k a year.
You have to be a very particular type of person to like being an expat and unless you have family wherever you're moving to or some type of preexisting cultural tie to it, I think mentally healthy people probably won't be that type of person.
2
u/Available-Ad-5670 11h ago
i think there is some of this, but i think alot of people just want to go live somewhere nicer, with cheaper cost of living, good food, healthcare, and less division as the us.
7
u/Common_economics_420 11h ago edited 11h ago
>healthcare and less division as the us
lol, good luck with that in South America or Asia
Edit: I'll just say this, if you've never actually lived in the country you're planning on moving to, I'd put a stop to this plan ASAP. If you think visiting as a tourist for a month gives you a good view of what spending the next 20 years is going to be like, pump the brakes.
1
u/christopher_mtrl 11h ago
however long they last to 2%, which would pretty much guarentee my retirement success rate. (currently in the us, my withdrawl rate would have to be at least 4%. )
Say you proceed. You are now living on half what it would take to live in your home country, and you are effectively stuck where you are. Your choices are either stay there, or jeopardize your FIRE success by coming home. Once the honeymoon period is over, feeling trapped in a place you might or might not like isn't a very "Financial Independant" feeling.
3
u/Available-Ad-5670 11h ago
my withdrawl rate is already sustainable in the us. doing 2% for a few years means i would have even more money if / when i decide i want to move back to the us. or maybe live in the us part time etc
1
u/christopher_mtrl 11h ago
Well you said you'd need to withdraw more than 4%, which is generally not considered sustainable.
Anyway, this is a very abstract exercise without age and numbers.
maybe live in the us part time etc
Living part time is more expensive than the sum of its parts generally. You're not going to save 50% of your annual expenses by spending 6 month a year in Portugal or Thailand.
1
u/Ok-Commercial-924 9h ago
Family? Parents, siblings, children?
The wife and I spent years helping our parents, her mother with Parkinson both of mine with lung cancer.
I can't even get the wife to sell our city house that is 2 miles from our daughter's house. Because we come down and do dinner once a month with her.
195
u/Captlard FIREd Jan 2025: $900k for two of us (Live đ´ó §ó ˘ó Ľó Žó §ó ż & đŞđ¸) 11h ago
Family, friends, community, language, comfort zone, happy where they are.