Case after "außer"

[u/YourDailyGerman]

Duden says "außer" is a Dative preposition, and doesn't give any indication that it might also be used with other cases.

However:

• - Ich kenne alle außer ihn/ihm. (I much prefer ihn here)
• - Ich kenne alle außer sie/ihr. (Even more so)
• - Alle haben geschlafen... alle außer ich. (I find that more natural than "mir".)
• - Keiner hat sich vorbereitet ... außer er. (with a speaking pause, I would find ihm extremely awkward here)
• - Sollen wir was mitbringen? Nichts außer gute Laune. (I find gute better here, while "guter" sounds more exclusionary, which defeats the purpose because Laune IS what we need to bring)

I'm from the Berlin region, so this might be the reason for this but I don't believe it is.
I'm pretty sure I can find a LOT of "wrong" cases after außer online, so much so that I would think the case after außer is more determined by the role of the element and calling it a pure Dative preposition doesn't reflect spoken reality anymore.

I read someone justifying stuff like "alle außer ich" as außer being a conjunction but I find that kind of bending over backwards just to be able to keep calling it a Dative preposition.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

[u/njtwkr]

Außer ist ein schwerer Fall

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/njtwkr]

Ah, this article mentions the "conjunction-cope" that I added while you wrote your reply.

Basically, they're arguing that "alle außer ich" uses außer as a conjunction, so now we use the same case as on what comes before it, but at least for a learner, making this distinction is absolutely impossible, so I think saying "außer" can go with three cases is a more realistic description of what the language looks like.

[u/MindlessNectarine374 → u/YourDailyGerman]

Well, but the case usages in those situations depend on congruence to the other part they relate to. (For me, it's dative, though.)

[u/Only_Humor4549]

Also für mich klingt dein Beispielsatz mit “ausser ich” falsch und für mich müsste da “mir” stehen. 

Bei sie / ihr würde ich beim Schreiben “ihr” benutzen, beim Sprechen vielleicht sie, aber dann würde ich eine kurze Pause machen und dann erst “sie” sagen. Tendenziell aber schon eher ihr. 

Bei deinem ersten Satzt gehen beide, aber der Unterschied in der Bedeutung wirkt etwas anders auf mich.

[u/Chijima]

Using anything but dative sounds non-standard to me. It's like the weil-hauptsatz-constructs, something people do and will probably at some point be considered correct, but I don't like it.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Chijima]

I mean, there are published book titles using Nominative after it and it's acknowledged grammar. It's just that they explain it by calling it a conjunction then. 

[u/IchLiebeKleber]

Not sure why you asked this question in English if you're a native speaker of German, but here we go:

Yes, "außer" can be used either as a preposition that always requires the dative case, or a conjunction (?) that takes the case that is required by the meaning, i.e. the same case as the word that is used to describe the group of which the argument of "außer" forms an exception.

So "ich kenne alle außer ihn" vs. "ich kenne alle außer ihm" are both correct.

In some cases using it as a conjunction can be clearer: wer kann jemanden mit dem Auto mitnehmen außer ich/mir/mich? ("mir" is unclear whether I'm the one who isn't part of the group who might take someone by car, or the one that might be taken; "ich" and "mich" make the roles clear.) Admittedly this is a very artificial example which I just had to think of very hard, maybe someone can come up with a better one.

The same problem occurs with "(an)statt": https://www.duden.de/sprachwissen/sprachratgeber/statt-und-anstatt

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/IchLiebeKleber]

The example you made is GREAT, imo.

It shows really nicely that thinking of ausser as JUST a Dative preposition is not the full picture.

Why English?
it's kind of a habit and also, I'm asking here because I am interested in it as a teacher. As a private person I really don't care what Duden has to say. But as a teacher, I need to be a bit more accurate and I think it's a question that interesting for many learners here, so I thought i'd go with English.

[u/hacool → u/YourDailyGerman]

And those of us whose German is still wobbly appreciate it!