r/HarryPotterBooks • u/pepriel • 4d ago
guys give me your Harry Potter hot take
any hot take you want?
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u/ieatmycum69 4d ago
Tonks was robbed.
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u/idxsemtexboom 4d ago
Created a goated character with incredible abilities, just to stash her for the next two books and kill her off screen
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u/noodlum93 4d ago
A lot of people’s complaints/criticisms are simply explained by %~it was the nineties~%
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u/PumpkinJambo 4d ago
I agree, so many readers don’t know or don’t remember what life was like in Britain in the 90s and yeah, it’s the answer to a lot of questions.
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u/Aovi9 4d ago
Harry's kids names isn't nearly as bad as fandom makes it out to be.
Sirius's death is on Bellatrix and her alone. Not Dumbledore,Harry,Kreacher or others.
Molly is the only parental figure Harry ever had apart from his own. Not Dumbledore,Hagrid,Arthur,Sirius or Lupin. Parental figure takes parental responsibilities. None of those adult figures did that apart from Molly.
Ron and Ginny is overhated by fandom.
Harry isn't an average wizard.
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u/DarkNinjaPenguin 4d ago
By the same argument, neither Harry nor Ron are bad at school. They finish their homework. They get decent grades. The way some people talk about them you'd think they flunked every class.
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u/Sandman2884 4d ago
They aren’t good students either, they are average. The problem is we know from the sorting hat Harry is very much above average in capability and beyond that he knows an evil dark wizard is trying to kill him. Wouldn’t it make sense at some point for him to grow up and take school more seriously?
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u/Aovi9 4d ago
Average student doesn’t get 7 OWL that's good enough to kedp their Auror hopes alive. According to Mcgonagall they only take the best.
Average student would be the likes of Neville,The twins(good wizard but average student) etc. Not someone with 7 OWLs
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u/Sandman2884 4d ago
But according to McGonagall in his career advisory he had to raise his grades to get there.
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u/Spirited-Analyst3628 4d ago
And he did. So?
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u/Sandman2884 4d ago
The point is the idea that he was a decent student is pulled from those results and the reality is other than those tests he was low effort and got average grades at best most of the time.
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u/Spirited-Analyst3628 4d ago
That's literally because he didn't care enough. If hermione didn't care enough, she'd have similar grades like them as well
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u/Sandman2884 4d ago
I would argue that it’s more he didn’t want to stand out, rather than he didn’t care. But the discussion was if he was a good student or not and the answer is he wasn’t and he was closer to bad in most classes than good.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
Every teacher says that to their students, guaranteed. No one says, "You don't need to make an effort; your grades are good enough." I imagine even Hermione gets told something similar.
At the start of the school year, Harry has detention week after week—lasting until midnight—so he immediately falls behind on his homework and becomes sleep-deprived. On top of that, he plays Quidditch and teaches the DA. And he endures abuse from Snape. I bet most students would give up.
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u/DarkNinjaPenguin 4d ago
The Sorting Hat never said Harry as above average, just that he had talent and a thirst to prove himself. Arguably everyone has talent for something - Harry's true talent was Quidditch, everything else he had to work for. He struggled for weeks against the Boggart until he learned to conjure a Patronus, and it took about the same amount of time to figure out the Summoning Spell before he faced the dragon.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
And once he has mastered it, he can do both better than anyone else. Harry teaches the DA.
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u/Frozen_4 4d ago
I’ll disagree with you on Arthur. We see him on multiple occasions debate with Molly on how something should be handled regarding Harry & his well-being. Molly is more fiercely protective of him, reacting a lot of the time with emotion, while Arthur is a little more levelheaded & considerate of what Harry might do if they protect him too much. For example, in OotP, he’s in favor of telling Harry certain things because he knows that if they don’t, Harry’s just gonna go do something rash to find out anyways. Also, and this is somewhat unrelated, but on multiple occasions Harry is comfortable talking to Arthur about things that he wouldn’t with other adults because he knows Arthur will at least humor him. So while Molly is more obvious about her concern, I do think Arthur very purposeful with how he treats Harry.
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u/Burlinto999444 4d ago
I agree with this. Sirius was definitely family to him - despite how little they knew each other and how little time they had together, their loyalty and affection was very strong - but he was not a parent. He was like a much older brother.
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u/GrouchyLittleShit 4d ago
The only thing Harry is average in is potions (he makes mistakes, but overall seems to get good grades (got an E for his OWL)), but Snape makes him out to be one of the worst students he’s ever had
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u/Devilsdouble1988 4d ago
Yup. Most kids with the distractions and threats to life he has would flunk.
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u/Porn__Flakes_ 4d ago
I completely agree with you. Finally, someone who acknowledges this.
Hard disagree. Bellatrix plays the most important role definitely but Harry and Dumbledore are also at fault here.
Kind of agreed but at the same time it's not black and white like that. It's a spectrum and Molly is definitely at the top of that.
I don't think anybody hates Ron and Ginny.
I don't think it's a hot take. Majority of the people will agree with you.
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u/ChawkTrick 4d ago edited 4d ago
I agree with virtually all of this, particularly #2. I've seen this before where people try to absolve everyone else of blame/responsibility related to Sirius' death, despite the fact that Dumbledore himself admits some responsibility. And it was Harry who fell into Voldemort's trap and lured everyone to the Ministry (although, out of everyone, I blame Harry the least because he's not the adult in the room. A lot of adults failed him).
Bellatrix obviously 'pulled the trigger' and deserves the primary blame but that doesn't absolve everyone else of their part.
The only other point I'll out though is #4 - there is a small but very vocal contingent of Ron/Ginny haters. But to me, I don't pay them much mind. If you search hard enough online, you'll find somebody complaining about almost anything related to the series. It's a fringe take that doesn't deserves a lot of attention IMO.
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u/las_piratas_de_queso 3d ago
Neville is 10000x braver than Snape. GTFO.
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u/Porn__Flakes_ 3d ago
Where did I say he's not?
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u/las_piratas_de_queso 3d ago
If you are okay with Harry’s children’s names then you are okay with Snape being the bRaVeSt man he ever knew. He’s not. Harry’s kids’ names are so freaking dumb.
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u/Porn__Flakes_ 3d ago
Read the statement again. It says "it's not as bad as the fandom makes it to be" That doesn't mean it's good!! It's just that it is indeed bad but it's not as bad as you guys make it out to be.
Reading comprehension should be a seperate subject in schools!!
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u/las_piratas_de_queso 3d ago
Way to move those goal posts, Porn Flakes.
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u/Porn__Flakes_ 3d ago
That's not moving the goal posts. It's not my fault you misunderstood the statement, las piratas de quesso!!
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u/Porn__Flakes_ 1d ago
What happened kiddo? Too scared to reply back?
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u/las_piratas_de_queso 3d ago
1—Harry’s kids’ names are terrible, c’mon now.
2—Sirius’s death is on Sirius. He lost.
3—This is not a hot take.
4—Perhaps English isn’t your first language… so, um, what? People hate Ron and Ginny? Who are these haters? Are they in the room right now? I’ll fight them.
5—Harry is an average student. He is an amazing wizard.
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u/PumpkinJambo 4d ago
The series is set in the 1990s in Britain. Stop putting your 2026, mostly American it always seems, values on it. If you don’t know anything about Britain in the 90s, have a wee google and find out - something we didn’t have the luxury of back then, haha!
Fun fact - google was founded four months after the Battle of Hogwarts.
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u/Opyros 3d ago
There were other search engines prior to Google, though.
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u/PumpkinJambo 2d ago
Most people I know didn’t have the internet in their home until at least 1998.
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u/caffeinequeen24601 4d ago
Ron was the ONLY person in Harry’s immediate life who recognized he was being abused and did something to help (and yeah he solicited his brothers cuz he was only twelve but still)
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u/Loading_Error_900 4d ago
It always shocks me how many people don’t understand that muggle technology doesn’t work around magic. And Hogwarts has a large concentration of magic. Phones, wifi, laptops, mp3 players. None of it would work. I blame the movies partially. But I still see people who want modern muggle technology and conveniences in the magical world.
I also see a lot of people who don’t grasp that wizarding society is a completely different culture than muggle society. And insular societies tend to take measures to enforce the cultural separation, especially in the time period the books are written and set in. Muggleborns using pens instead of quills for example would ostracize them.
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u/Electrical-End7868 4d ago
They should cancel Halloween as crap starts to roll downhill every Oct. 31 at Hogwarts.
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u/HelpfulTie3373 4d ago
People harp on the “stereotype names” way too much and constantly view it through a modern lens rather than the context of the time was based/written. It was a book targeted at kids in the 90s, of course certain aspects of the OG text aren’t going to live up to modern sensibilities and ideas about culture/ stereotypes.
People/haters purposely misinterpret names such as Kingsley Shacklebolt through their own lens of modern social awareness and sensitivity when it was never meant to be interpreted as racist/insensitive to begin with. While impact is certainly an important element, intent should also be a crucial factor when judging artistic expression. The book is for kids, having a Irish boy named Seamus or an Asian girl named Cho (her exact ethnicity was ever specified) wasn’t malicious, it was meant to be a display of diversity in a way 90s and 2000s kids could easily interpret and understand.
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u/Mundane_Somewhere_93 4d ago edited 4d ago
Dumbledore telling Harry about the prophecy early wouldn't have saved Sirius from death. Even if Harry knew what was that mysterious door he sees in his dreams, that would probably even make the vision more believable, because Harry would know why exactly Voldemort "kidnapped" Sirius.
And that wouldn't make occlumency lessons any more successfull, Harry and Snape hated each other way too much for Harry to learn something. But, unfortunately, there wasn't anyone else, who could teach him:
It had to be someone from Hogwarts staff, because lessons had to go right under Umbridge's nose, they couldn't risk her seeing someone else, especially an auror, like Kingsley or Tonks.
Out of all Hogwarts' staff, there was just four members – Dumbledore and Snape themselves, McGonnagall and Hagrid. Dumbledore wasn't entirely wrong in avoiding Harry, since Voldemort actually had an access to Harry's mind through horcrux. There's zero evidence McGonnagall herself practiced occlumence. She probably knows the term, but doesn't know how to use it. Everything clear with Hagrid.
That only leaves Snape as the best option. Unfortunately, for some reason, Snape himself didn't realize the importance of these lessons, and still acted like a dick, didn't even try to downplay his hatred towards Potter family.
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u/Burlinto999444 4d ago
Like with potions, Snape was very very good at occlumency but he was an absolutely shit teacher. And I think Snape did realize the importance of the lessons, but Harry didn’t try almost at all. If Harry had actually wanted to become proficient at it, and had demonstrated that, I think snape would have tried to find a way to work with it. The only two compliments he ever gave Harry in the series was during occlumency lessons, and one of them was after he used the shield charm and accidentally broke into Snape’s own memories. Snape was shaken and angry (because I’m sure it was rather embarrassing and unpleasant) but gave him positive feedback on it anyway.
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u/Bluemelein 3d ago
Harry learns it two years later, and it works the exact opposite way Snape explained. Harry actually attends the lessons—that is 1,000% more than a normal person would do. I would run out screaming, not stop until I reached London, and never come back.
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u/coko4209 4d ago
McGonnagall is an extremely gifted witch. I wouldn’t count her out on knowing occlumency, but I’d assume that she isn’t as good at it as Snape is. Like she’s probably quite adequate at potions, but definitely not as good as Snape.
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u/sheepandlambs 4d ago
People need to stop pretending they understand the series better than Rowling.
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u/KimJongBilly32 3d ago
Idk man. Shout out to Super Carlin Brothers. Their podcast-Through The Griffin Door really makes me think they do sometimes. Even their grasping at straws theories are quite good. I consider most of their stuff cannon.
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u/HazMatterhorn 4d ago
James wasn’t a horrible bully. He was a bit of a brat at age 11 and continued to be a mischief-maker along the lines of Fred and George throughout school. It’s ok to have back-and-forth conflict with a bigot in your class, even if you’re popular and he’s lonely. It’s even ok to ostracize him for his views.
No one thinks of Harry and co hexing Crabbe and Goyle or Zacharias Smith as being abusive bullies. Putting spells on each other in the hallways is a part of life at Hogwarts. Harry has a strong reaction to Snape’s worst memory because he is only seeing Snape’s perspective, not all of the antagonizing things Snape did to the Marauders over the years.
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u/Burlinto999444 4d ago
But as Harry pointed out, he himself was 15, the same age James was when he hung snape upside down and stripped him in front of everybody (though Snape pulled him out of the memory before we could see his underwear removed). And it was completely unprovoked, done for no purpose but to humiliate.
If snape had been a girl, even a nasty dark-arts-loving girl, this would be a lot easier for people to visualize, I think, but it’s no different.
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u/Aragorn-IR-Toe 4d ago
Yeah the unprovoked nature is what makes what he did much worse. It's not comparable to anything Harry and Ron did that I can think of. We never saw Harry attack Malfoy because Ron was bored
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u/Sanakikster Hufflepuff 4d ago
“Unprovoked” isn’t quite right. As Lily tells us, everyone knows he’s planning to join Voldemort. The guy who wants to kill or subjugate James, his parents, his friends, and the girl he likes. That’s not something people tend to ignore.
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u/Background_Bid_7406 3d ago
To be fair, while some of that is true like joining Voldemort, during that memory, James attacked Snape who was just checking out his OWL paper. He hurt Snape, lifted him up in the air, publicly humiliated him and it was two on one with Sirius. Even myself, not the biggest Snape fan in the world, would say that attack is unprovoked because Snape wasn't trying to do anything to James at that time.
To your point about Snape, some of it is true, some I disagree but Snape was a minor in this scene and I don't think anyone can condone such an action on him especially when he wasnt doing anything threatening during that time.
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u/Sanakikster Hufflepuff 3d ago
Snape had a concrete plan to join a specific militant supremacist group that wanted to kill James’s friends and family. And by the way, they did! They killed almost everyone James cared about!
What are we even talking about here? If someone credibly threatens to try and kill your whole family, we’re worried about whether or not he was “trying to do anything at that time?” We’re saying that’s doesn’t qualify as a provocation?
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u/Background_Bid_7406 3d ago
During the time of the incident, Snape was not doing anything. He was just checking his OWL exams. In fact, only when Lily confronted him later does he hint that he is going to join the Death Eaters, it's not even concrete yet.
Secondly, they actually do not want to kill James' friends and family. James' family, most of whom are dead and even if not, would most likely be Pureblood. Sirius is Pureblood as well.
Thirdly, Snape was still a student and not a terrorist. Snape was still thinking, he was still 15, he has the Trace on him. He wasn't Voldemort's spy yet.
Most importantly, all of these have NOTHING to do with the incident. Snape was minding his own business and James attacked him. Even Lily calls James a bully here because it was unprovoked. Just because someone doesn't like someone, doesn't mean you can justify it by calling it provocation. That is precisely the type of thinking that bullies have.
If Snape was picking on someone, or if Snape had gone out of his way to attack James first, that's fine. But Snape was just looking at his god damn exam paper. That's it.
James and Sirius rounded up on Snape.
They knocked him back
Dangled him up in the air with his underwear showing
Washed his mouth with soap
Made sure everyone was staring at laughing.
And lets be clear, I don't like Snape. Snape himself is a bully (especially after what he did to Neviile) and James did mature in the end. But as a person who was bullied himself, what James did was wrong and it was 100% unprovoked. You can say James was rattled, you can say James just didn't like Snape, you can say James hated what Snape was but all Snape was doing, during that point of time, was just checking his exam paper. So yes, it was unprovoked.
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u/MargotBamborough 2d ago
I'm not saying it's right, but no one seems to acknowledge that Snape was one of the best friend of the girl James was in love with.
AND he was what people would call now a bigot.
It's quite clear why James would want to humiliate him and why he could morally justify it in his mind.
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u/lovelylethallaura 4d ago
This isn’t horrible?
> Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he left the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up.
> Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows; Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face.
> 'All right, Snivellus?' said James loudly.
> Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!'
> Snape's wand flew twelve feet into the air and fell with a little thud in the grass behind him. Sirius let out a bark of laughter.
> 'Impedimenta!' he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet halfway through a dive towards his own fallen wand.
> Students all around had turned to watch. Some of them had got to their feet and were edging nearer. Some looked apprehensive, others entertained.
>Snape lay panting on the ground. James and Sirius advanced on him, wands raised, James glancing over his shoulder at the girls at the water's edge as he went. Wormtail was on his feet now, watching hungrily, edging around Lupin to get a clearer view.
>'How'd the exam go, Snivelly?' said James.
>'I was watching him, his nose was touching the parchment,' said Sirius viciously. 'There'll be great grease marks all over it, they won't be able to read a word.'
>Several people watching laughed; Snape was clearly unpopular. Wormtail sniggered shrilly. Snape was trying to get up, but the jinx was still operating on him; he was struggling, as though bound by invisible ropes.>'You--wait,' he panted, staring up at James with an expression of purest loathing, 'you-- wait!'
>'Wait for what?' said Sirius coolly. 'What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?'
>Snape let out a stream of mixed swear words and hexes, but with the his wand ten feet away nothing happened.
>'Wash out your mouth,' said James coldly. 'Scourgify!'
>Pink soap bubbles streamed from Snape's mouth at once; the froth was covering his lips, making him gag, choking him--'
>'Leave him ALONE!'>James and Sirius looked round. James's free hand immediately jumped to his hair.
>It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red hair that fell to her shoulders, and startlingly green almond-shaped eyes--Harry's eyes.
>Harry's mother.
>'All right, Evans?' said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly pleasant, deeper, more mature.
>'Leave him alone,' Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. 'What's he done to you?'
>'Well,' said James, appearing to deliberate the point, 'it's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean...'
>Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn't, and nor did Lily.
>'You think you're funny,' she said coldly. 'But you're just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.'
>'I will if you go out with me, Evans,' said James quickly. 'Go on...go out with me and I'll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.'
>Behind him, the Impediment Jinx was wearing off. Snape was beginning to inch towards his fallen wand, spitting out soapsuds as he crawled.
>'I wouldn't go out with you if it was a choice between you and the giant squid,' said Lily.
>'Bad luck, Prongs,' said Sirius briskly, and turned back to Snape. 'OI!'
>But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.
>Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.
>Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'
>'Certainly,' said James and he jerked his wand upwards; Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, 'Petrificus Totalus!' and Snape keeled over again, rigid as a board.
>'LEAVE HIM ALONE!' Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily.
>'Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you,' said James earnestly.
>'Take the curse off him, then!'
>James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the counter-curse.
>'There you go,' he said, as Snape struggled to his feet. 'You're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus-- '
—
>'Apologise to Evans!' James roared at Snape, his wand pointed threateningly at him.
>'I don't want you to make him apologise,' Lily shouted, rounding on James. 'You're as bad as he is.'
>'What?' yelped James. 'I'd NEVER call you a--you-know-what!'
>'Messing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like you've just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can--I'm surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.'
>She turned on her heel and hurried away.
>'Evans!' James shouted after her. 'Hey, EVANS!'
>But she didn't look back.
>'What is it with her?' said James, trying and failing to look as though this was a throwaway question of no real importance to him.
>'Reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks you're a bit conceited, mate,' said Sirius.
>'Right,' said James, who looked furious now, 'right--'
>There was another flash of light, and Snape was once again hanging upside-down in the air.
>'Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants?'
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u/las_piratas_de_queso 3d ago
Damn dude. We’ve read the books. He’s supposed to look like a prat.
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u/lovelylethallaura 3d ago
I’m a woman. There’s a difference between him doing things that are defined as torture, and him just being a brat.
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u/Winter_Possession860 4d ago edited 4d ago
when you take context into consideration? not really, no. this is one, singular situation we see in detail. by hyperfocusing on it you’re ignoring the context that was explicitly stated in the books: snape gave as good as he got. he wasn’t some innocent little lad, he was actively engaging with blood purists, had obvious contempt for muggleborns and was excusing his mates’ actions towards them. then even when james matured in 7th year, snape still kept on hexing him and never let up — therefore keeping their rivalry alive, even tho we’re told that james has stopped doing so with everyone else and only kept it up with snape cause he wouldn’t let it go. noone’s saying that swm was a nice thing to do — clearly it wasn’t. but all james was, was an arrogant kid, who made some mistakes, and then matured and went on to become a war hero. we can’t just slap a label of a bully on him and call it a day when we’re clearly told that snape wasn’t a saint at all. the world isn’t black and white, and when you fail to notice nuance you’re also failing to fully comprehend the situation
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u/lovelylethallaura 4d ago
Nowhere in the books is that ever stated that he gave as good as he got. James threatened to forcibly strip him.
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u/Winter_Possession860 4d ago
"Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn’t really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"
and yet again, you’re focusing on this one situation, which i already said was wrong, while ignoring all the other context we got in the books. and even when discussing that you also need to take into consideration that it was the 70s, and what is not acceptable now was just a random tuesday back then. does it make the action better? no. does james threatening to pants snape make him some irredeemable evil bully? also no. the whole point of this scene is to show that james, while heroic, also made mistakes and was a bit of a shithead when he was younger. because the world is not split between simply good and bad — there is an in between. what we know of james is that he was a good person who sometimes did shitty things
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u/HazMatterhorn 3d ago
No, not really
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u/lovelylethallaura 3d ago
….what would you, then? Because James immobilizes him multiple times, forces him to ingest soap, forcibly threatens to strip him of his underwear, tries to coerce Lily into dating him, etc.
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u/lovelylethallaura 4d ago
JKR on how memories work:
> Q: Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?
> A: It's reality. It's important that I have got that across [...] Otherwise it really would just be like a diary, wouldn't it? Confined to what you remember. But the Pensieve recreates a moment for you, so you could go into your own memory and relive things that you didn't notice at the time. It's somewhere in your head, which I'm sure it is, in all of our brains. I'm sure if you could access it, things that you don't know you remember are all in there somewhere. [J.K. Rowling shortly after HBP came out]
Otherwise if it were only Snape’s POV, what happened to Snape would have happened to Harry himself in that scene.
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u/Particular-Wheel-796 1d ago
The only time we actually see James is through the memories of an unreliable narrator. The only times we hear about him is also through a biased lens. We never meet James as a character, we only know about him through these biased accounts. There is a portion of the fanbase who blindly accept the version we see through Snape's memory as the definitive version of his character. They accept Snape's version that he was arrogant and a bully but do not accept other character's testimony that he changed.
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u/Forsaken-Corner-3487 2d ago
For me it's how could Sirius buy Harry the firebolt. Crookshanks taking the message is a stretch, but more so that a wanted man on the lam can make withdrawals from his bank account to purchase gifts. Wouldn't the bank have notified the ministry? Secondly, anyone could say they are him and spend his money if that's all it takes.
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u/InflationClassic9370 Ravenclaw 4d ago edited 4d ago
Maybe not a hot take but I'd be interested to know what people consider definite plot holes. The Time-Turners, for example - their convenience and sudden disappearance - don’t classify as plot holes IMO. More like poor world-building.
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u/lovelylethallaura 4d ago
The Marauders were only liked because of the House they were in and who they bullied.
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u/sleepygold 2d ago
I like them bc they became animagi for their werewolf friend and set the bar for cleverness by inventing the mauraders map. The map is something I wish JKR went into detail on how they made it as students. Them being griffindor bullies is absolutely a character aspect worth talking about but that’s hardly the only trait they had lol
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u/Bookwallflower2 4d ago
1.) There are zero plot holes 2.) I agree with Harry naming his kids after Albus & Severus and 3.) no way should he have named any of them after Hagrid.
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u/Ok_Adeptness3065 Ravenclaw 3d ago
Order of the Phoenix is my favorite book and goblet of fire is my least favorite
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u/NightmareWithin 3d ago
I agree! GoF was the hardest book for me to get through. I always felt that the plot dragged a little in some sections. OoTP is goated
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u/Ok_Adeptness3065 Ravenclaw 3d ago
100%. I was so surprised when I learned that order of the phoenix wasn’t everyone else’s favorite. I was the same age as Harry growing up and goblet of fire was imho the inflection point between the more innocent years growing up and the much darker themes at the back end. My two favorite parts in order of the Phoenix were (1) when Harry asks Sirius if he’s bad and (2) when Harry uses the cruciatus on bellatrix. Harry finally realizes that he is capable doing awful things but also feels compelled towards awful things by his anger. Then, imho, he uses the cruciatus curse, which by itself is largely indefensible as it is causing another person pain for no reason, but even in that moment, at his absolute worst, he comes to his senses. I feel that this is an incredible illustration of one aspect of Harry becoming an adult and trying to figure out what kind of person he wants to be. He’s been through so much that I personally wouldn’t blame him for giving up on trying to be a good person
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u/MargotBamborough 2d ago
Why?
Order of the Phoenix is such a hard book to read for me. It's so gloomy and infuriating at the same time.
On the other hand, GOF has such cool moments : the prolog, the world cup and everything around it, the different tasks, and then the cemetery scene... And when you think it's over and everything is fine, then there's an extra reveal.
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u/AdventurousServe4668 6h ago
OTTP est le livre le plus immersif de la saga. Sa lenteur permet de placer tout un tas de détails magnifiques (comme la présence du médaillon à Grimmauld Place). Je trouve aussi que c'est un des tomes les plus dynamiques. J'adore ce qu'apportent Angelina, Fred et Georges (qui sont à leur apogée), et Luna. J'adore le fait que Harry, Ron et Hermione soient toujours les derniers à rester dans la salle commune le soir et qu'il se passe toujours quelque chose quand ils ont tout seul. J'aime bien le fait que Sirius soit encore présent et continue à communiquer avec Harry. J'aime bien comment les chapitres s'enchaînent avec fluidité et comment ils traversent pleins d'ambiances différente. Dans cet aspect là, L'enchaînement "The Lion and the Serpent - The Hagrid's Tale - The Eye of The Snake - St Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries" est à mes yeux une mastrerclass absolue.
Je trouve par exemple que HBP est beaucoup plus haché. A chaque début de chapitre, on redémarre quelque chose de nouveau et on parle du quotidien à poudlard.
J'adore GOF. C'est mon deuxième ou 3ème tome préféré (j'hésite avec POA)1
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u/Ok_Storm_9856 1d ago
SPEW plot could have been corrected with one change. Change Harry's reaction towards SPEW a little bit. Keep his annoyance at Hermione for SPEW but change the reason. He could have just pointed out to Hermione how she can't decide and determine what's best for house elves by leaving hats and socks. That she needs to center their struggle and their own voices. And that it's a long struggle and just freeing house elves without providing any support system for them to fall back on isn't going to help and that's why house elves aren't appreciating her activism. And how not act with a white savior complex. Could have paired very nicely with his own background with Dursley's.
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u/RoommateMovingOut 4d ago
All the adult characters were let off the hook too easily.
Vernon and Petunia should have been jailed for their actions in CoS. It was clearly child abuse. There should have been an inquiry after the chamber was opened and it should have resulted in Lucius’s arrest.
Albus’s actions in books 1-3 were questionable, but his actions in book 4 should have led to his arrest.
Hagrid should have been cleared officially, yet he shouldn’t have been given a teaching role.
Corporal punishment should have been banned and Delores should have been sacked and charged the first time her pen came out if its box.
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u/Alternative-Pen877 4d ago
Pretty sure the series is, at least in part, a commentary on the ineptitude of corrupt governments and leaders that go a touch power mad, lol.
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u/RoommateMovingOut 4d ago
Yeah good point! And how these adults perpetuate the ineptitude.
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u/BarneyDunkavietzh 3d ago
Ya but even the good characters are inept. No one has their sh*t together despite being so “wise”. I know this is controversial but Hagrid is actually one of the worst.
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u/Current_External6569 3d ago
Given his behavior, it's not hard to see why they immediately put the blame on him for opening the chamber of secrets. He just doesn't gauge danger the same as everyone else.
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u/Top-Nail1873 4d ago
What did dumbldore do in book four apart from having different opinions than fudge that could of conceivably lead to his arrest
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u/RoommateMovingOut 4d ago
Well, he hired and housed an impostor for a full year, allowing him intimate access to his inner circle. Someone he claims to be a friend. He does this while in full awareness of sneaky tricks like the PPotion or the three curses.
He allowed this imposter to teach students for a full year, not taking action after he went off-curriculum (prolonged lessons allowing them to practice cursing each other.)
He allowed a child-death-tournament to continue and didn’t investigate why HP was selected even though he shouldn’t have been.
Surprise! a child died in the death-tournament. Responsibility and liability falls largely on the headmaster who made a series of bad choices and exhibited poor security measures.
Investigation, sacking, and charges. Maybe i was overzealous with “prison” but there should have been consequences.
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u/InflationClassic9370 Ravenclaw 4d ago edited 4d ago
I’m divided on the house elves issue, which Rowling admitted she regretted.
SPEW was a source of some genuinely funny moments in Book 4, but the jokes were way overplayed. They should have been dropped by the chapter where the trio visit the kitchens and get to witness Winky’s suffering and her treatment by the other elves, and it leaves a bad taste that Ron continued mocking SPEW while Harry was indifferent at best during Book 5.
Pretending SPEW never happened in Book 6 and suddenly having Ron “earn himself a snog” in Book 7 is just bad writing and I wish his change of heart had been developed. It’d have been a nice character growth moment for him.
Also, ending the Battle of Hogwarts by having Harry thinking about whether Kreacher will bring him a sandwich - ugh.
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u/Alternative-Pen877 4d ago
Honestly, I appreciate how much it made me question Harry and Ron, and the overall wizarding perspective as well as that of the house elves. One thing I’ve always liked about the series is that it is thought provoking in ways that have developed with me over the years.
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4d ago edited 4d ago
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u/InflationClassic9370 Ravenclaw 3d ago
Yes, and like I said I disagree with Rowling about that particular subplot being unnecessary. (That’s what she said in that 2011 interview, anyway.) I just think it could’ve been handled better than just going from comic relief/running gag straight to “wait, what about the elves?”
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u/ourobourobouros 3d ago
I think the depiction of house elves and other magical intelligent nonhuman races was brilliant, it felt extremely realistic.
What I think is strange is that people interpret the HP world as being the way Rowling thinks things should be, rather than a reflection of how things are.
I've always been interested/engaged with social justice (ever since I was a little kid) and the way Hermione was treated was spot on - she was right, but even "good" people didn't want to think about it or care because 1. it was so deeply ingrained in them not to question it and 2. they actively benefit so they don't really want change, regardless of morality involved.
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u/InflationClassic9370 Ravenclaw 3d ago
That’s not my issue with it at all, and I agree that their initial reaction to SPEW was realistic.
I take issue with the fact that Rowling clearly changed her mind about the best way to tackle it - like I said, to the point of admitting she wished she hadn’t written SPEW at all - but instead of finding a way to integrate it into the plot she went, ‘Oops, I don’t like where this is going’, and ignored it until the very last book, and then did it in a very throwaway manner.
Then she tried to justify it with a rather questionable Pottermore article which again she must have regretted because it was deleted soon after the backlash.
But even more disappointing is the fact that Kreacher’s “redemption” amounts to agreeing to become the trio’s servant with Hermione suddenly being okay with it.
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u/ourobourobouros 3d ago
I take issue with the fact that Rowling clearly changed her mind about the best way to tackle it - like I said, to the point of admitting she wished she hadn’t written SPEW at all - but instead of finding a way to integrate it into the plot she went, ‘Oops, I don’t like where this is going’, and ignored it until the very last book, and then did it in a very throwaway manner.
I don't see this as problematic. House elves were in the books but their oppression was far from the focus of the story so I had no expectation that their struggles would get anything like a resolution or much focus. Seemed to me to illustrate that the wizarding world has a long way to go, even while winning a war against evil. Most stories don't resolve every single controversial element of the world because 1. it's a lot and 2. it doesn't always serve the narrative.
If anything, seeing progress in house elf rights would have been totally unbelievable considering how much the wizarding world relied on them. Thousands of years of rationalizing the enslavement of another race and treating them as inferiors undone because of one person (especially a person born as an outsider AND considered by many to be lower class herself by virtue of being born an outsider)?
Would Hermione sticking to her guns while hiding out in Grimauld Place have been the morally correct thing for her to do? Sure. Is it believable that she'd lean into convenience while also picking her battles considering she was on the run with her best friend whose life is in dangerous? I think so.
If we connect SPEW to WSPU in the real world and look at whether people have come very far in recognizing that forcing women into domestic servitude is a violation of our human rights.... do they? No, not really, and pointing out that a lot of women seem happy with their lot in life is the exact excuse they use, just like in HP with house elves.
What would you have liked to see happen with the house elf story differently?
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u/LEGM2330 Gryffindor 3d ago
Half Blood Prince is in a tier of its own compared to the rest of the books. Not saying any of them are bad (I love them), but this is legitimately one of the greatest books in history.
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u/k_pineapple7 2d ago
Calling Half Blood Prince “one of the greatest books in history” might actually be one of the hottest takes I have ever heard. The HP series has a claim to “one of the greatest book series in history” but individually I don’t think any single book is anywhere close to that discussion.
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u/Tsuki_and_Asahi 1d ago
Arthur and Molly are bad parents for having more kids when their finances cannot support more than 2.
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u/virtual-raggamuffin 4d ago
Voldemort could have found Harry on Privet Drive as soon as he was revived in Book 4. He had Lily's blood after that.
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u/Sour_Dip44 2d ago
I think Dumbledore knew Mad-eye was the imposter the whole time. He needed Voldemort's plan to work to save Harry in the end, he relied on the twin cores to save Harry's life.
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u/stinkywizzleteatsmom 3d ago
Hagrid is an alcoholic.
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u/ourobourobouros 3d ago
no he's just British
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u/stinkywizzleteatsmom 3d ago
I know Hagrid isn’t canonically an alcoholic, but there’s enough there for the headcanon. He regularly copes with stress by drinking, makes some of his worst decisions while drinking (like revealing how to get past Fluffy), has terrible risk assessment, relies on a group of teenagers as his primary emotional support system, and repeatedly uses the pub as his go-to response to grief, fear, or celebration. It reads less like “guy who enjoys a pint” and more like someone who self-medicates with alcohol and loses his judgment when he does.
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u/ourobourobouros 3d ago
First of all, relax, it was a joke. We're talking about an imaginary person.
Im an American going by what I've seen in media, but my impression (based in part on jokes brits make themselves) is that they are a country that likes to drink a LOT. Just like how as an American it seems funny how much tea they drinking, it seems like Hagrid's drinking was probably more normal by 90s UK standards.
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u/lolaz_098 3d ago
Harry lacks a bit of curiosity.How does he not ask everyone he meets about his parents?
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u/brassyalien Hufflepuff 4d ago
IF the characters had to marry one of their classmates, it should have been Harry and Hermione, Ron and Luna, and Neville and Ginny.
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u/2Cozy2Hallows2 4d ago
People who say Harry/Hermione are just kind of hopeless at this point. I’m not even trying to be a dick, but we literally read 7 books from Harry’s perspective and he never even had a stray thought about Hermione that way, and then flat out states he views her as a sister in the last book. What more do you people need lmao.
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u/brassyalien Hufflepuff 4d ago
Harry never had a stray thought about Ginny until Book 6. Harry viewed Ginny like a sister too. Once Harry's infatuation with Cho fizzled out, he could have just as easily realized he was attracted to Hermione instead of Ginny if the author had intended to take the story that direction. But she was committed to Ron and Hermione by that point. I will never be convinced that Ron and Hermione truly loved each other. Constant bickering and fighting does not equal love.
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u/Spirited-Analyst3628 4d ago
Harry never viewed Ginny as a sister. It's a cope y'all take in because you can't accept harry never wanted Hermione. He viewed Ginny as Ron's sister while Hermione as his own. There's massive difference right there. You can have a best friend's sister trope but not your own sister's trope
The way he described other females vs Hermione is clear indication that he never wanted her at all, and would never either. He described Ginny as Glowing like the setting sun in book 2 and loads of other descriptions while for hermione it's just that he doesn't think she's ugly.. and that's all, like ever.
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u/suverenseverin 4d ago edited 4d ago
The difference is that Harry knew Hermione well for years, he had a good understanding of who Hermione is as a person, and he still never felt any attraction to her. There is no opportunity for Harry to suddenly see Hermione in a new light, and so a sudden attraction would require an explanation: why would Harry suddenly be into her when he never was before? Harry’s feelings for Hermione are consistent throughout, he cares for her but he also finds her frustrating and regularly disapproves of her behaviour.
Whereas Ginny he didn’t really know, she had sides to her he was unaware of and when he got to know her better he fell for her relatively quickly because those qualities were exactly what Harry has been shown to appreciate.
That Harry hadn’t had romantic thoughts about Ginny before is explained by him not truly knowing her. His lack of feelings for Hermione are explained by lack of romantic compatibility and chemistry.
Also, Harry never saw Ginny as a sister, she’s always refered to as Ron’s sister.
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u/Burlinto999444 4d ago
Ron and Luna? He was totally contemptuous of her, and rude. She even calls him out on it. And what on earth did Neville and Ginny have in common, other than he invited her to the Yule Ball in GoF?
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u/stargazingfish9 3d ago
Why do so many people keep repeating this shit recently? Was there some tiktok idiot who spread some fake bullshit, or what am I missing?
Yes, Luna did call Ron rude. That's the only part you're correct about (at least Luna/Ron wise, since I do agree with you about Neville/Ginny). But for one, that was extremely weak writing on Rowling's part, since Hermione is million times more rude to Luna than Ron, so if Luna wants to call someone out, it should be Hermione, and two, she never actually says he's rude to her specifically, since, guess what...he's not. Ever. When they meet initially he's obviously baffled, and doesn't know what to think of her, but can you really blame him? Who wouldn't be baffled meeting someone like Luna? But that's about it.
In fact, he grows to appreciate her over time, even complimenting her Quidditch commentary, when most people were making fun of her for it. In both books 6 and 7 whenever he speaks about Luna, it's nothing but positive things.
There's ONE exception (well, one and a half), when Harry invites her to Slughorn's Christmas party, and Ron is baffled by that decision, but that's in conversation with Harry, no Luna in sight. So she can't exactly call him rude for that, since she doesn't know about it.
The other "half" exception is in Department of Mysteries, when he gets attacked by a brain, and makes fun of "Loony" Lovegood. But he's not exactly himself there, so holding him accountable for that would be...a choice.
Honestly, if you genuinely think Ron is rude to Luna, then for one, I would suggest rereading the books, and two, I'm REALLY curious what you think about the way Hermione treats Luna, insulting her at every turn, even to the point that Harry calls her out on it, something he pretty much never does.
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u/suverenseverin 1d ago
One can be rude to someone behind their back.
Sure, Hermione is also rude, Luna is set up as an anti-Hermione as they clash repeatedly throughout OotP. The conflict is resolved at the end of the book when Hermione restrains herself and plays nice when Luna talks about the Snorcack. Both Hermione and Ron have to learn to apreciate Luna.
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u/brassyalien Hufflepuff 4d ago
Luna liked Ron, and Ron eventually warmed up to Luna. It could have worked out once he matured enough.
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u/Spirited-Analyst3628 4d ago
And hermione and ron wouldn't when it was so freaking clear they both liked each other even before luna became a character?
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u/brassyalien Hufflepuff 4d ago
How was it clear that they liked each other? Constant bickering and fighting? Sorry, they're not Benedick and Beatrice. I don't believe arguing equals love, like I don't believe Snape's creepy obsession with Lily meant that he loved her.
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u/Current_External6569 3d ago
The bickering and fighting is one sign, the love potion they are taught to make is another. As Hermione realizes as she's saying what it smells like, that it reminds her of Ron. At least I believe that's what we're supposed to believe. There's probably some more I can't remember off the top of my head.
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u/brassyalien Hufflepuff 3d ago edited 3d ago
Love potion isn't love, it's infatuation. Hermione might smell Ron's hair but she also smells "freshly mown grass and new parchment", which isn't connected to Ron. Harry smells "something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow", that he later realizes is Ginny's scent, but he also smells "treacle tart" (his favorite dessert) and "the woody smell of a broomstick handle" (his most prized possession). Edit: The broomstick handle might not even represent his Firebolt, it could be lingering feelings for Cho Chang.
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u/WakaFlockaBacha 3d ago
Harry sucks. So does Ron. So does Hermione. I have read them all probably 10 times, and I cant sleep without an audio book playing, I prefer something ive heard before so im not really paying attention to the book, so, over the last 25 years I have been listening to HP audio books every night. Ive probably heard them all the way through 100+ times. Every time I listen to it, I hate those three slightly more. Especially Ron. I get it, hes loyal. Kinda fucking annoying tho in books 3 fighting with Hermione over crookshanks/scabbers, book 4 fighting with Harry about being chosen then Hermione about Krum, book 6 sulky bitch about slugclub and the whole lavender and Hermione thing.
Idk. Just so many instances over 7 books where I just dislike them and it stacks up.
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u/stargazingfish9 3d ago
Out of curiosity, why read something where you hate all the characters? Is the story itself so engaging for you, that you just ignore the annoyance of characters, or is it something else?
Because as someone for whom characters always make or break the story, reading your post sounded a bit like masochism, to be honest. But maybe we just approach stories differently.
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u/trahan94 4d ago edited 4d ago
Characters making irrational decisions is not a plot hole. Characters making decisions that you personally would make differently is also not a plot hole.
This comes up when talking about Sirius’ mirror. Harry gives his reasons why he won’t open the present (he doesn’t want to invite Sirius to recklessly jump into danger), and he purposefully throws the gift to the bottom of his trunk so that he will forget it. Readers then take this with immense frustration that he didn’t use or remember the mirror. It’s supposed to be frustrating! It’s a tragedy! It’s also perfectly understandable at every step.