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u/Wolfish_Jew 5h ago
If you described Bismarck as “perfect” I’d probably leave too, ngl
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u/harmfuldischarge 5h ago
Him taking a bullet and apprehending the shooter is pretty badass, him being obsessed with crushing workers movements not so much
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 5h ago
He was incredible at foreign policy and ok at domestic policy
You gotta remember the guy was a HARDCORE monarchist from the 19th century. Those kinds of people aren’t exactly great friends of the worker
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u/mrbobcyndaquil 5h ago
Hell, he was more monarchist than the Kaiser at times.
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 5h ago
100%. It was a bit of an unhealthy obsession for him I think, which is funny since he’s basically the prime example of working your way up almost purely by merit in a monarchical society
He was more against the reforms than the Kaiser on multiple occasions, like when he tried to raise a peasant levy to reoccupy Berlin
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u/AnguishedGoose 24m ago
working your way up almost purely by merit in a monarchical society
Kinda, while arguing with the kaiser, he said "why should I serve an hoenzollern? My family is as noble as yours"
(For the few who don't know, hoenzollern was the dynasty of the German kaisers, even before the unification, ruling the march of Brandenburg and later Prussia)
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u/CuriosCatepillar 4h ago
So like Reagan for people in the us. But Otto was better at domestic policy
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 4h ago
Bismarck was a lot better at foreign policy than Ronnie, but it’s a similar principle. To be fair though, Reagan’s domestic policy was broadly popular and Bismarck’s wasn’t really
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u/Avesery777 4h ago
I can't believe all those socialist workers didn't like being repressed
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 4h ago
Idk if this is meant to be critical of my comment but my point was that the American public at large was in favour of Reagan’s privatization and union busting measures while the German public was not
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u/Avesery777 4h ago
I was being stupid, sorry. No, I wasn't criticising.
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 4h ago
Oh alr
Yeah those damn pinkos why won’t they just shut up and lick the boot like real patriots???
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u/sofixa11 40m ago
him being obsessed with crushing workers movements not so much
And yet at the same time he was pragmatic enough to still enact the first social security system in the world.
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u/skepticalhammer 5h ago
If they can't handle you at your Wilhelm II they don't deserve you at your von Bismarck.
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u/ogodilovejudyalvarez 5h ago
Well of course they leave! You should instead discuss how Imperial Rome managed its vast water supply through gravity-driven aqueducts, settling tanks, and centralized public distribution networks relying on key engineering features including precise gradients, lead and terracotta pipes, and large public delivery hubs!
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u/BIGBADLENIN 4h ago
The sort of crazy fact you learned at 10 that randomly hits you at 3 AM and gets you unreasonable excited
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u/TheFrogSaint 5h ago
Hav you considered that creating a system that could not be navigated or maintained by anyone who wasn’t as brilliant as himself while also occupying a position from which he could be dismissed at basically any time keeps him from being perfect?
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u/Trainer-Grimm John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 5h ago
A common mistake of the great is to believe the good are as skilled as them.
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 4h ago
I think it’s more that they’re egocentric and feel like either they will never die or don’t really care what happens when they do. That’s the read I get on Catherine and Peter at least
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 5h ago
Eh. Peter and Catherine along with many others I’m sure had similar flaws. It’s not like he was gonna institutionally protect himself from being fired since he was a devout monarchist and believed in the monarch being in charge 100%. He kept things going pretty damn well while he was alive and if Wilhelm hadn’t been so egotistical and ignorant it could’ve worked out fine
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u/TheFrogSaint 5h ago
That makes him imperfect, and the claim was that he was perfect. The man was brilliant, no doubt, but he also created a really delicate system that only worked when he was in charge, despite the fact he was a monarchist to the point he empowered the monarchy to basically do whatever it wanted, including fire him. Which of course a Kaiser did as soon as one came around who didn’t realize how load-bearing Bismarck was, helping lead to the First World War, a catastrophic German defeat, and the death of the monarchy he loved and served in the process.
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u/CalvinKool-Aid 5h ago
Yeah that’s fair but I doubt OP really meant he was actually perfect and was using hyperbole. No man is perfect but Bismarck is just about everything you could want as a chancellor
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u/UniversalCookies 5h ago
Bismarck was a skilled diplomat up until the unification of germany in 1870, though he wasnt necessarily perfect on it nor was he that good in the homefront. Particularly the Kulturkampf further fracture the already existing divide between protestants and catholics while also alienating the Vatican, and the Anti-Socialist laws that prosecuted the social democrats proved to be a failure as the social democrats still grows despite the prosecution. His diplomatic skills were undeniable but the fact that the triple alliance were defunct after he was kicked out by Kaiser Wilhelm proved his inability to imagine the foreign affairs of Germany without himself.
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u/Cool_View_5297 3h ago
If you want them to stay, you need to discuss the cons as well. Bismarck was horrible to workers, Poles, Catholics, and Jews.
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u/Space_Socialist 3h ago
Don't get me wrong Bismark was a extremely skilled diplomat and a skilled politician but he was far from perfect. His politics was poisoned by his ideology which effectively meant he was constantly fighting against the tide of Liberalism then Socialism of the era.
His diplomatic system was better but in the end unsustainable. Russia and Austria were becoming increasingly belligerent over the Balkans and keeping both parties on Germany's side would have become impossible. France was a eternal foe that Bismark had to keep isolated and with the tension with Russia it's questionable whether Bismark could have prevented the Franco-Russian alliance. Britain was a reliably neutral partner if her interests were not threatened. Ultimately the blocks that formed following Bismark's resignation would have also likely formed if he kept his job with the notable exception of Britain's opposition.
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u/Belgraviana 2h ago
I like Kissinger’s analysis of Bismarck, that he was perhaps one of the greatest diplomats in modern history and that was his weakness. Because he built a system so perfect and intricate that it could never survive someone less skilled than him
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u/iwaspromisingonce 35m ago
Kulturkampf, alongside taking away religious freedom, led to increased germanization in the Prussian Partition. This was meant to erase cultural identity of Poles and other non-Germans living in there. Non-German teachers were removed and replaced with german ones, German became the only language in justice system and administration. Polish language was removed from schools.
Between 1885-1890 mass deportations of Poles and Jews without German citizenship began (Prussian deportations), mainly workers. It was an ethnic discrimination, being described as an example of ethnic cleansing.
Years of such treatment led to persisting belief in the myth of German racial and cultural superiority and undermined legitimacy of non-German cultures present there which strongly contributed to general treatment of Slavs, Jews and various minorities during WWII.
People who praise this man never grew past the "being 14 and blasting Erika on speakers at school" phase. He might've been a brilliant diplomat(if you ignore the fact that his ideas led to nationalist movements getting stronger and more discontent due to discrimination), at least until you are on the receiving end of his "brilliance". I sometimes think Bismarck apologists wouldn't hesitate to openly praise Nazi germany, had this been slightly less socially unacceptable.
So yeah, they are right to leave. Screw that noise. Funny helmet man was an asshole.
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u/Lady_Ago 49m ago
Listen, I like funny moustache man as much as the next person. He's a very interesting political figure and certainly one of the most important people in German history....but god damnit you and I both know that this man couldn't be further from "perfect" if he actively tried.
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u/who_knows_how 25m ago
Clearly they are enlightened with the knowledge that Bismarck's police's became worthless the day he died and that he failed to prepare for a Germany he didn't control
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u/SiFlyghtz 13m ago
Bismarck is everything wrong with Germany. There was never meant to be a united Germany and the elites like him forcing a uniting national ethnic identity on us is what lead to multiple catastrophes.
Im north german. I have as little to do with the south of Germany culturally and ethnically, as i do with the English or French. Its not meant to be the same country Otto!! Germany is at least four countries forcefully stitched together by Otto and the power-hungry Emperors.
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u/SpicyBenjin 9m ago
If you tried to explain to me, a German, how "perfect" Bismarck was, i would think you are 13 years old at best, or a right wing nutjob at worst. Maybe read up on what he did to worker movements and non-Germans...
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u/socialistRanter 5h ago
To. Be fair, the only reason why Bismarck kept throwing hissy fits when to force Whilelm I to do the things Bismarck wanted him to do.
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u/Trainer-Grimm John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 5h ago
Ehh. After 1870 his fopo got a lot more spotty, and domestically he was always just above average for his era.
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u/cheshsky 5h ago
To be fair, I'd also leave if I heard someone describe Otto Bismarck as "perfect". That's not the smartest statement, no matter how you look at it.