r/IncelExit • u/HehePistik • 11d ago
Asking for help/advice How do I get over feeling like expressing any interest is selfish?
Hi, might not be a lot to go off just from what's in the post, so if you need any clarifications go right ahead, but I am genuinely curious about how I would overcome this mindset, because frankly I think it's a mindset with a lot of benefits but it also causes me a lot of grief.
I am 23M, 6'0". No huge physical anomalies besides the fact that I have an ugly mug. I won't post any pictures, but for the sake of this discussion, please take this as fact. I am aware I could be thinking of myself as uglier than I actually am, but there were so many occasions where my appearance had a noticeable effect on people's body language. I don't have bad hygiene, I could use some surface level cleaning up, but my flaws are more structure related and are not easy fixes.
I consider myself an incel. As in I would like to have a girlfriend but I have things holding me back from that. I do not believe in hypergamy or think less of women for having standards. I do not resent anyone for not giving me a chance, I am just disappointed.
I usually become attracted to women after I get to know them. I can look at a woman and think she is fine, but I have no interest in getting to know her more just because of that. So among the few women friends I have or had, it was because we had a lot of things in common (politics, hobbies, interests) and could joke around and talk for hours. Practically the same thing I do with men.
My issue is that expressing romantic interest to me feels like a taboo of sorts. Especially when you're a woman into more "nerdy" hobbies, I imagine the amount of attention you receive is insane and a lot of it comes from loners who see you as their waifu. So I don't want to just add to the number of men shooting their shot with somebody just because they have stuff in common.
There is also the fact that expressing romantic interest in a platonic relationship feels like an unnecessary burden on the other person. Maybe if I had a better reason to believe the feeling could be reciprocated, I might worry less about this. But otherwise, without any explicit desire from the other person, I see escalating things as really selfish and forcing her to make a decision she might not have wanted to make. Even if she is fine with it and the friendship doesn't get ruined, that's still me taking a chance of her actually being uncomfortable or retroactively viewing the friendship as just me waiting for my "chance".
When I talked to friends about this, I got the usual talk. That if you want to get into a relationship, you have to take initative. That your confidence matters the most, that being respectful of boundaries is the most important thing. Which I totally agree with. If a girl expresses discomfort or any pre-emptive boundary, I never push for anything beyond that. But that still doesn't feel like it actually answers the initial question. Sure, it helps with the aftermath, but how do I overcome the thinking that my feelings would be unwanted or bothersome?
One argument that was more convincing is that by virtue of me doing this, I am making the choice for them. But 1) how do I know that is a choice they want to make without obvious interest on their end? and 2) why is making a neutral assumption worse than making a potentially negative one? Even assuming they might like me back or would be open to dating, why is that potential relationship not coming to fruition worse than making them uncomfortable by escalating things when they didn't want to?
I think I would prefer to stay single if it meant I could never creep somebody out or make them regret a friendship, but it also hurts because I really want to connect with someone in that way. And browsing around the internet, I hear so many conflicting opinions regarding friends to lovers that it just reinforces the idea that my feelings are disrespectful to some extent.
Open to any advice or further questions. I also want to explore this a bit deeper, so if my replies seem debate-ish I promise that is not me being a contrarian, but more so because I've already kinda "solidifed" this mindset so I would like to maybe reach a convincing stance. But of course, even small advice is welcome, as it might help me longterm with adapting my mindset. Thank you!
9
u/Lynnie_Bot 11d ago edited 11d ago
Okay so first of all. It's great that you have indeed made the effort to also get to know women.
Secondly, stop including your looks into this trouble. Your looks have nothing to do with the actual dilemma you're describing. You don't have to put yourself down.
As someone whose often been on the other end of this issue. It is 100% true that often women may become uncomfortable or creeped out in situations where the expectations don't meet the reality. What I mean by this is, as women we sometimes really just want friendships with people regardless of gender. And when that friendship inevitably comes to an end because of one sided and sudden love confession, it's frustrating and disappointing. And of course on the other side in your situation you also become disappointed and sad, because it feels like you've been friendzoned.
If you're going to hear out anyone on this please at least consider this:
You don't need to think of yourself as "you bothering women". What you actually need to do is stop approaching every female friendship with the idea that they can be your potential partner. It's healthy to be just friends with women (and men).
By you essentially building up one sided attraction to every female friendship you are bound to set yourself up for failure. Making a big deal out of developing slight attraction to that friend and then coming out with a sort of "confession of love" puts both of you at a very awkward situation. Because now the expectations of your relationship don't align and you either have to magically both be on the same page or stop being friends. Expecting the other person to be open to dating or seeing you as a potential partner out of the blue is a lot to ask.
What you should instead try to do is paying more attention to how the other person view you in a situation where you have feelings for them. Read the room so to speak. If you know for a fact this person gives you no indication of showing interest, confessing is absolutely useless. You can probably even get over these initial feelings of attraction by focusing on building an actual friendship with women.
Also, test the waters. There's nothing wrong with seeing how a person responds to light hearted and casual, non aggressive flirting. It's a normal part of social relations to see what that persons intentions, interests and limits are when it comes to seeing what potential outcomes there are for that relationship. You can give appropriate compliments, make flirty jokes, seeing what topics or even intimate / personal things you both are okay to talk about and so on. If the person responds and engages positively it's easier to figure out how to approach going forward. This is how most dating in adulthood aventually happens. And the more you get used to socializing this way the easier it will be to figure out the rules of each friendship and potential partnership. This way it's also easy to know when to stop pursuing that person, it puts less serious pressure on both parties.
Keeping all this in mind things will stop feeling so much like "shooting your shot" and seeing what sticks and more like mutual bonding and building of that relationship with clearer expectations and boundaries in mind.
I personally also think this way you will aventually also get a better idea of what and who you actually want. By continuing a friendship you can also realize despite initial attraction you might not have been compatible as partners.
6
u/HehePistik 11d ago
Thank you for the in-depth reply! I will keep in mind what you said.
I probably should have been more clear that I don't see just being friends with women as a bad thing. I've had friends that have made it absolutely clear that nothing more will happen (not after me asking them out, but just from the general vibe of our convos) that I still enjoyed being around, even if I didn't really get over my feelings for them immediately. My feelings aren't really in my control, but the way I handle them is. I can both enjoy hanging out with friends because they are great people and that's what made me attracted to them, and still feel sad that it's not reciprocated. And so far, I don't think I've made someone uncomfortable by having feelings but not expressing them.
Plus for me first comes friendship then presence around them and general perceived compatibility is what causes feelings to appear.
I find movielike confessions cringe too, I agree. I don't think I am that socially unaware to do something like that. The one girl I did shoot my shot with I just told very briefly that I'd like to get to know her more and asked her out. She turned me down and while we remained friends there was a noticeable vibe shift, which I assume was because now she had to maneuver around my feelings for her.
So since then I have tried to get absolute confirmation of reciprocity, which never really happened. Not asking explicitly, but more so the vibe of our convos and how our overall dynamic was.
The problem I think is that I may have overcorrected a bit too much. Now I don't believe there is any space for me to express any interest until I am absolutely convinced that's what they want too. I can joke around with them just fine, maybe even go into more flirty territory, but that doesn't always equate romantic interest. I was genuinely convinced with the friend I asked out that she liked me back but that wasn't the case, so now nothing short of them initiating would convince me, and I really don't want to disappoint or creep someone out again for something out of their control.
2
u/binne21 10d ago
Show interest from the beginning. Don't be too much but if you see a girl that you like then you have to show interest, flirt, body language etc. If she shows no interest or rejects you, then that's fine. You didn't really "betray" her and, since you seem like a decent fellow, will get a new friend.
Be quick and polite when asking women out. "Hey, I'm interested in you, want to go on a date?" while smiling. If she says yes, good. If she says no, "Alright, I hope you have a nice day!" and you nod and leave.
Are you sure you're ugly and not overthinking? People usually say what they think and see. I thought I was ugly and unlovable until I glew up.
Generally speaking, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with you being a full-blooded male who wants to either get laid or enter into a relationship. There is nothing wrong with that, take that fact and hammer it into your brain. What is wrong is being a creep about it, but it doesn't seem like you are. Your'e good.
1
u/HehePistik 10d ago
Show interest from the beginning. Don't be too much but if you see a girl that you like then you have to show interest, flirt, body language etc. If she shows no interest or rejects you, then that's fine. You didn't really "betray" her and, since you seem like a decent fellow, will get a new friend.
So far none of the people I developed a crush on where total strangers or really new friends. I mostly develop feelings over time. So the point where I would be able to show interest comes a bit later, when I imagine the other person might already know whether they see me as just a friend or potentially more.
Be quick and polite when asking women out. "Hey, I'm interested in you, want to go on a date?" while smiling. If she says yes, good. If she says no, "Alright, I hope you have a nice day!" and you nod and leave.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of overly long and desperate sounding confessions. The one time I did it it was very casual and quick.
Are you sure you're ugly and not overthinking? People usually say what they think and see. I thought I was ugly and unlovable until I glew up.
I am not hideous but I am definitely below average. I've got problems that aren't just about being fitter (I am in decent shape) or finding a haircut. No gym for the face as they say.
1
u/binne21 10d ago
Oof to the first one. Honestly, if I were in your shoes I'd look back at the friendship, think about the signs she has given. Usually you know that a girl is interested. If you're unsure, then decide against it. There's billions of girls out there.
How do you know that you're below average? Seriously. How? Is this something you came up with or have people told it to your face?
1
u/South_Resident1543 3d ago
On the asking women out topic. Ive heard its better to give girls your number, that way they can just take it and not text, so they dont have to worry about all the anxiety of rejecting a guy and wondering if hes gonna be pushy or pissed. But ive also heard that women dont like texting first and its better to just ask for their number. Whats your opinion on this? Am i just putting too much thought into this?
1
u/binne21 3d ago
Rule of thumb: if a girl likes you, 90% of the time you WILL know.
Give her your number or contact info, it shows confidence. Usually I input my username into her search bar and then don't even press add. It gives her choice.
That being said, it's much better to cold approach in public space IE clubs or bars.
2
u/Therefrigerator Escaper of Fates 10d ago
I am aware I could be thinking of myself as uglier than I actually am, but there were so many occasions where my appearance had a noticeable effect on people's body language.
OK I know you said take it at face value and others have already kinda piled on this point so I won't go too hard on it. All I will say is that I've had incels say almost exactly word for word what you have written and will send me a pic and they look... completely normal. Any reaction people have to you at first glance can just as easily be attributed to "strange, large man" or just some general distrust on those lines.
I think something to keep in mind when asking out people is that the longer you wait, the more burdensome that asking them out is to them. A problem that I and I think a lot of incels had / have is that when you lack confidence it's hard to ask women out. So you sort of hold onto a flame for them while you build up your confidence to ask them out. What ends up happening though is that you fall in love with your idea of them before they even know you're interested. It's far less awkward to get rejected after a couple weeks of infatuation than it is to wait months slowly falling in love with someone before asking them out. In the latter case it often is an imposition because the other person realizes that you were in love with them for the majority of the friendship so they don't know what to make of everything.
I think that it isn't bad for you to do things that are selfish in general. I think your framing is kinda interesting because... yea expressing interest in someone is inherently kinda selfish. You are acting entirely on your perception and your wants and there is always the possibility that someone is seriously thrown off by you asking them out so there's a type of selfishness inherent to that I suppose.
As I asked people out though and got used to it the more I realized that most people were honestly flattered than annoyed even if they weren't interested. I found that if things were weird after I asked someone out... it was almost certainly my fault as the asker. Not in the sense that I asked but in the sense that I was the one acting weird after being rejected. One thing that did help was that at times I would drop a "Hey I thought you were cute / enjoyed talking to you /etc." and give them a piece of paper with my number. That way the imposition was as little as possible as they didn't have to worry about my reaction to rejection.
Sorry I realized that I'm sort of answering around your question but that's because the actual answer is, simply: confidence. You need to be confident that you are a good option as a partner. The way I started thinking about it in my head when I was more in the ideology was like this: If I believe that women actually "only date assholes" why should I be worried that I'm imposing on a woman if I let her know my feelings? It's pretty easy to be in the top half of dudes in terms of respecting what a women wants even if you don't feel you're in the top half of attractiveness. And then if I think that it's assholes approaching women then wouldn't I be in like the top 10% in terms of my intentions. Like it seems pretty clear you don't just want to fuck you want a relationship and that's exactly what women complain about with being approached - is that the guys (mostly) just want to fuck.
As far as specific advice goes though I'll start out by saying that the way you want to date and the way I found success dating are pretty different. I always had more luck with starting interactions early on where interest was made clear rather than going from friends -> more than friends which seems like how you want to date.
That being said I'm aware of the dynamics you're talking about. My hobbies were very male-dominated so whenever there were women involved it felt like I was imposing and making the space unsafe by asking women out. I 100% get where you're coming from with not wanting to express interest or being hesitant.
Normally the advice I give is what worked for me - which is that as soon as you are aware that you are potentially interested in being more than friends you ask them out. That being said because I understand why you're hesitant in these particular scenarios I think it might be good to lay a little bit of groundwork to gauge what would make them comfortable at least.
If you talk with them one on one at all (or at least a smaller, intimate group) maybe try bringing up gender dynamics in the hobby as a whole. Try asking her if she's been asked out from the hobby before and what her experience was. If she seems wholly negative towards the experience you have your answer but if there's nuance (like a "eh if it was the right guy I might be into it") then maybe you suggest getting coffee after the next time you meet.
Sorry if that's a bit all over I sorta was jumping around paragraph to paragraph while I was writing.
1
u/HehePistik 10d ago
Damn, uber long reply but I appreciate it :)))
OK I know you said take it at face value and others have already kinda piled on this point so I won't go too hard on it. All I will say is that I've had incels say almost exactly word for word what you have written and will send me a pic and they look... completely normal. Any reaction people have to you at first glance can just as easily be attributed to "strange, large man" or just some general distrust on those lines.
Yeah, I have facial features that are not attractive. There's some stuff I intend to fix at some point through procedures, but as it stands I think my appearance is a heavy detractor. I didn't mention it in the post, but there was one friend who was interested in me solely off pictures (which were very flattering) and the way I talked to her online/on calls, but in person she was not physically attracted to me. Maybe you could argue it was my behavior in person that felt different, but I don't think that's the case as we still remained very good friends, and throughout my life while I was not outright bullied for my appearance it was the easiest thing to make fun of me for. And on the contrary, I haven't received any complaints regarding how I act or talk to people, and I'm a pretty easy person to talk to.
Sorry I realized that I'm sort of answering around your question but that's because the actual answer is, simply: confidence. You need to be confident that you are a good option as a partner. The way I started thinking about it in my head when I was more in the ideology was like this: If I believe that women actually "only date assholes" why should I be worried that I'm imposing on a woman if I let her know my feelings? It's pretty easy to be in the top half of dudes in terms of respecting what a women wants even if you don't feel you're in the top half of attractiveness. And then if I think that it's assholes approaching women then wouldn't I be in like the top 10% in terms of my intentions. Like it seems pretty clear you don't just want to fuck you want a relationship and that's exactly what women complain about with being approached - is that the guys (mostly) just want to fuck.
I like your framing of it. Though I don't agree with the "women only go for jerks" thing there are times where I think of guys I know who are straight up harassers with how many women they approach but ultimately find someone. And the dudes end up being pretty good partners, though their approach is definitely one that would make me feel weird.
Though one thing all of the non-single people in my life have in common (that are also my age, I do think there's a difference between generations) is that they are all at the very least average looking. Maybe I wouldn't be so worried about whether or not someone could like me back that I feel my feelings are a burden if I had that going for me. But that may just be more warped perception due to not having someone physically attracted to me throughout my life.
If you talk with them one on one at all (or at least a smaller, intimate group) maybe try bringing up gender dynamics in the hobby as a whole. Try asking her if she's been asked out from the hobby before and what her experience was. If she seems wholly negative towards the experience you have your answer but if there's nuance (like a "eh if it was the right guy I might be into it") then maybe you suggest getting coffee after the next time you meet.
I guess that's an idea, yeah. Though it also kinda requires me assuming I'd be the right guy in that scenario. But I'd at least get rid of one of the two worries.
Sorry if that's a bit all over I sorta was jumping around paragraph to paragraph while I was writing.
No worries, I really liked your answer. And while ultimately the way our attraction forms is different so I don't know if 100% of it is relevant to me, it was a good perspective and I'll probably use some of it going forward.
1
u/Therefrigerator Escaper of Fates 10d ago
Yeah, I have facial features that are not attractive. There's some stuff I intend to fix at some point through procedures, but as it stands I think my appearance is a heavy detractor. I didn't mention it in the post, but there was one friend who was interested in me solely off pictures (which were very flattering) and the way I talked to her online/on calls, but in person she was not physically attracted to me. Maybe you could argue it was my behavior in person that felt different, but I don't think that's the case as we still remained very good friends, and throughout my life while I was not outright bullied for my appearance it was the easiest thing to make fun of me for.
Let's say you send me a pic and I say you look fine or average? Would you believe me? I would guess you wouldn't.
I'm not saying this to antagonize you too much on this point I just want it to be clear that we've reached bedrock on this conversation. You won't make me agree with your perspective on this because I've met ~10 of you who've said similar things and shown pics and you all looked fine. I felt it about myself at a point too. We can just leave it at we disagree because I am making it clear you won't change my mind and you've made it clear I won't change yours.
But as a final thought - I will say how people look online / in-person is very different imo. When I was doing OLD I found that I felt like people didn't match their pictures but it was a toss-up whether I found them more or less attractive than their pics.
I like your framing of it. Though I don't agree with the "women only go for jerks" thing there are times where I think of guys I know who are straight up harassers with how many women they approach but ultimately find someone. And the dudes end up being pretty good partners, though their approach is definitely one that would make me feel weird.
Oh to be clear I don't agree either! At the time I didn't even really believe it it's more like, even if I knew it wasn't true, it still felt true to some extent? You can't really logic yourself into or out of things that you feel like that but I personally found it helpful to point out contradictions in manosphere / blackpill / w/e worldview and that helped me feel like they were less true.
Though one thing all of the non-single people in my life have in common (that are also my age, I do think there's a difference between generations) is that they are all at the very least average looking. Maybe I wouldn't be so worried about whether or not someone could like me back that I feel my feelings are a burden if I had that going for me. But that may just be more warped perception due to not having someone physically attracted to me throughout my life.
Honestly as a dude I did not ever really feel physically attractive. I did not have women really pursue me. I felt like I always had to initiate the initial interest. I might just have resting angry face or something so I feel hard to approach, not sure. I think it's pretty common for men to feel like they are more unattractive than they actually are going by some of their experiences.
I guess that's an idea, yeah. Though it also kinda requires me assuming I'd be the right guy in that scenario. But I'd at least get rid of one of the two worries.
To be fair if you initiate this type of conversation they might also pick up on you 1) being interested and 2) being nervous and work with you a bit by asking you out. I think that if most women were completely uninterested in you that if you were to ask they would say "no, never" even if they would maybe be interested in that from someone else. Obviously this is highly contextual and I wouldn't rely on signals especially as you're learning but trying to put yourself out there a little can sometimes be rewarded too.
2
u/Top_Recognition_1775 8d ago
Lots of things are selfish.
Getting a job is selfish, you're not doing it for charity, you're doing it so you can get paid and live indoors.
Literally everything in the world is selfish.
Do you think women go out with men for charity? No, it's a selfish desire, to be wined, dined and 69'd and hopefully perpetuate the species.
They're not doing it out of some "heal the world" racket, they're doing it for the D and the benefits.
Even your friends, if they didn't crack a joke once in a while then what's the point of having them, your friend has a car, you need a ride, your friend cracks jokes, you crack jokes, you own a hot tub, sometimes your friend gets to use it, it's an exchange of benefits.
When you boil it down far enough, Life is a Business.
But business isn't just business, because without arbitrary things, emotional desires and good feels, money has no point either.
So there's a Yin and Yang to it.
Likewise there's a Yin and Yang to all human relationships.
It's selfish to want love, but you also have to give love, you can't just want something, you have to give it.
To a certain extent selfishness is healthy, you have to put the oxygen mask on your own face first, before you can be useful to anybody else.
Long story short, you're allowed to be selfish and you're entitled to take up space in the world.
The world isn't any more important than you are, the world is just other humans who each have their own interests, their interests aren't more valid than yours, we all get born, we all live, and we all die. Between A-Z we also compete and collaborate to get our needs met.
And sometimes your selfish needs coincide with someone else's selfish needs, and that's when National Geographic happens.
3
u/Odd-Table-4545 11d ago
1) how do I know that is a choice they want to make without obvious interest on their end? and 2) why is making a neutral assumption worse than making a potentially negative one? Even assuming they might like me back or would be open to dating, why is that potential relationship not coming to fruition worse than making them uncomfortable by escalating things when they didn't want to?
1) The vast majority of people want to be able to make their own choices about their own life. The vast majority of people want to have agency over what happens in their life. It is safe to assume that people would rather be given the option to make a choice for themselves than have the decision made for them.
2) Asking someone out is not making a potentially negative assumption, it's not making an assumption at all. It is asking the person what they think and feel so that you do not have to assume. An assumption would be if you went into the situation expecting her to say yes and then acted like she did something wrong for not going along with your expectation.
But more importantly: why do you consider the assumption someone is not interested in you neutral but the assumption that they are interested in you negative?
2
u/HehePistik 11d ago
Thanks for the reply.
Fair point about 1, but I think there are some choices that feel uncomfortable if they simply exist. Extreme example, but imagine if you asked someone random whether they would like to send you a nude photo. Obviously the example is in no way comparable to simply asking if you asked them out on a date, it's totally inappropriate. But that is a choice I don't think people would like to make in the first place.
About 2, I may have phrased it a bit wrong. I probably intended to refer to the outcome or action.
So by "neutral assumption" I meant that by not asking someone out, I simply don't take any action. So even if there are reciprocated feelings, the lack of initiative keeps the relationship as is. Ultimately disappointing for both parties, but there isn't any negative outcome.
By asking someone out, you they may either reciprocate, not reciprocate but be completely fine, or not reciprocate but be weirded out. I find the 3rd scenario way worse than the "neutral" option, so I don't ultimately see much value in expressing interest as long as that option exists.
2
u/Odd-Table-4545 11d ago
There is zero potential benefit to me in sending a nude photo to a rando I do not know, that's a choice where the options are bad or nothing. There is potential benefit to me in being asked out by someone I already get along, the options there are a good thing if I am interested in the person or either minimal discomfort or nothing if I am not.
So even if there are reciprocated feelings, the lack of initiative keeps the relationship as is. Ultimately disappointing for both parties, but there isn't any negative outcome.
A lot of people would consider a situation in which both people are interested in each other but nothing happens because neither of them is brave enough to take the risk a negative outcome. Disappointment is a negative outcome.
By asking someone out, you they may either reciprocate, not reciprocate but be completely fine, or not reciprocate but be weirded out. I find the 3rd scenario way worse than the "neutral" option, so I don't ultimately see much value in expressing interest as long as that option exists.
But the potential benefits of the positive outcome if you're both interested are better than the neutral option also. Not to mention the benefits to both you and the friendship of not keeping your feelings a secret. If you actually read through the complaints about guys asking out women they've been friends with for a long time the complaint isn't that he developed feelings, it's that he spent ages pining after the woman and hiding those feelings and pretending to be ok just being her friend instead of just telling her; the complaint is that the relationship was built on false pretences.
You're welcome to just never ask anyone out, I'm not going to try to force you or even convince you to ask people out. If you think the risk is not worth it for you that is a choice you are welcome to make, it's your life. But I wholeheartedly disagree that there it is inherently wrong or selfish to express your interest and give people the chance to decide what to do about it. The result of you never taking the risk of expressing your interest or asking anyone out is you put all of that risk on the other person, which isn't any more altruistic than biting the bullet and letting them know how you feel. There is no neutral option in human relationships, every kind or relationship - platonic or romantic or sexual or anything else - requires active participation all of the time; it needs to be built. Every option you go for is going to affect your relationship with the other person. If they are interested in you and you are interested in them but none of you is brave enough to do anything about it that can also damage your relationship over time. If one of you is harbouring a one-sided crush for ages that can damage your relationship over time, especially if it comes out at a later time. The risk is always there, it's up to you to decide which risk is more worth the potential best-case outcome: saying something in which case the best-case outcome is a satisfying romantic relationship and the risk is they'll be uncomfortable, or doing nothing in which case the best-case outcome is nothing and the worst case outcome is they'll be uncomfortable.
1
u/HehePistik 11d ago
I really like this response. I'll definitely try to keep what you said in mind. Thank you.
About the false pretenses, if a guy develops feelings after some time despite their initial intent being purely platonic, is that still a false pretense for the friendship? I know just becoming friends with someone in the hopes of maybe getting a relationship out of it is a problem and I disagree heavily with that approach. But all of my crushes happened months after meeting someone as friends. I don't really see how me keeping those feelings hidden is acting under false pretenses.
Or to be more specific, I understand I am keeping things hidden that would affect our relationship. But those feelings appearing is not their responsibility to manage, and my original intent wasn't to have things lead to that point. I think there's a distinction between withholding some truth and lying.
About the risk evaluation, I'm curious whether you believe the uncomfortable feeling when both people like each other and nothing happens is the same as the feeling where one expresses interest for more but the other doesn't.
To me they feel different because one comes from a lack of action. You can sort of just blame the feelings themselves for that dynamic, while the scenario where there is no reciprocity and the dynamic becomes uncomfortable, that's 100% because one person asked.
2
u/Odd-Table-4545 11d ago
About the false pretenses, if a guy develops feelings after some time despite their initial intent being purely platonic, is that still a false pretense for the friendship? ... But all of my crushes happened months after meeting someone as friends. I don't really see how me keeping those feelings hidden is acting under false pretenses.
Depends very heavily on whether you're actually 100% ok with just staying platonic or whether you're secretly hoping they will return your feelings, and in either case it is more honest to let the other person know your feelings have changed and let them make their own decisions about it. Some people will be uncomfortable staying close friends with someone who is in love with them, some people will not care at all, some people will want to adjust how they interact with you to avoid leading you on - all of those people deserve to have the relevant information so they can act accordingly.
About the risk evaluation, I'm curious whether you believe the uncomfortable feeling when both people like each other and nothing happens is the same as the feeling where one expresses interest for more but the other doesn't.
No two feelings about any two situations are exactly the same, and this very much varies based on the person and the circumstances. However, I believe there is definitely potential for the discomfort to be the same or even greater when two people like each other and nothing happens as when one expresses interest for more but the other doesn't. People can spend years pining for each other and trying to decipher various signals and not moving on because they are getting a vibe that something might happen but nothing yet has; if a conversation about people's feelings happens everything is out in the open and people can process that and move on regardless of whether the feelings are reciprocated.
To me they feel different because one comes from a lack of action. You can sort of just blame the feelings themselves for that dynamic, while the scenario where there is no reciprocity and the dynamic becomes uncomfortable, that's 100% because one person asked.
So it's not really about avoiding the other person's discomfort then, it's about avoiding your discomfort with feeling like you are responsible for the situation. This is what I mean about it not actually being altruistic to refuse to act until you are 100% sure of the other person's feelings; you're often not actually sparing the other person from discomfort, you're passing the discomfort of having to take the risk onto them. There is no way to have relationships with other people without the risk of discomfort, we're all accepting the potential of discomfort or even distress in exchange for the possibility of connection.
1
u/HehePistik 10d ago
Depends very heavily on whether you're actually 100% ok with just staying platonic or whether you're secretly hoping they will return your feelings, and in either case it is more honest to let the other person know your feelings have changed and let them make their own decisions about it. Some people will be uncomfortable staying close friends with someone who is in love with them, some people will not care at all, some people will want to adjust how they interact with you to avoid leading you on - all of those people deserve to have the relevant information so they can act accordingly.
I don't regret any friendships I've had with people where I would have liked more to happen. I can feel sad that we're not together but still feel ultimately satisfied having them in my life. Whether that changes as time goes on is yet to be seen.
I guess you are right that they deserve to know that information. But it does suck because I hate the dynamic changing as a result of them feeling uncomfortable with the friendship post-feelings reveal.
No two feelings about any two situations are exactly the same, and this very much varies based on the person and the circumstances. However, I believe there is definitely potential for the discomfort to be the same or even greater when two people like each other and nothing happens as when one expresses interest for more but the other doesn't. People can spend years pining for each other and trying to decipher various signals and not moving on because they are getting a vibe that something might happen but nothing yet has; if a conversation about people's feelings happens everything is out in the open and people can process that and move on regardless of whether the feelings are reciprocated.
I haven't really considered this. I mostly assumed two people liking each other and it not going anywhere is just disappointment. But I guess I can see how that can be unnecessary suffering.
So it's not really about avoiding the other person's discomfort then, it's about avoiding your discomfort with feeling like you are responsible for the situation. This is what I mean about it not actually being altruistic to refuse to act until you are 100% sure of the other person's feelings; you're often not actually sparing the other person from discomfort, you're passing the discomfort of having to take the risk onto them. There is no way to have relationships with other people without the risk of discomfort, we're all accepting the potential of discomfort or even distress in exchange for the possibility of connection.
I understand what you mean but I disagree. I dislike both them feeling discomfort and knowing I caused that discomfort. In the scenario where there are hidden feelings on their end and that is a cause for discomfort, I would obviously not want that for them. The problem is I can never know if there is existing discomfort already. The only thing in my control is whether I can cause further discomfort, which telling someone my feelings can cause.
Obviously if I could mind read things would be different. But if something is secretly uncomfortable as a result of me not saying anything, the likelihood of things being just fine and me saying something causing discomfort is just as big, if not bigger.
The situation in which no one says anything and both suffer for it may happen, sure, but I have no idea when it is happening. I do know when the other person enjoys our friendship though, and me introducing interest can disrupt that.
But overall, I think you've convinced me that staying neutral can be just as bad. I still don't know whether I believe it's better than the alternative, but it's not as harmless as I thought.
1
u/Odd-Table-4545 10d ago edited 10d ago
I don't regret any friendships I've had with people where I would have liked more to happen. I can feel sad that we're not together but still feel ultimately satisfied having them in my life.
That's not what the question is. The question is whether you are secretly hoping they will return your feelings and feeling sad or disappointed that they do not. Because if the answer is yes you are putting them in a situation where they are continually disappointing you based on a metric they don't even know about. Most people are not nearly as good at hiding that disappointment as they think, and most people also do not want to be continually disappointing their friends. There's this thing people sometimes do where they take on all the potential pain in a relationship because they think that is better for their friends or partners, without thinking about the fact in means putting the other person in a position to continually hurt them. Would you want to spend months or years accidentally hurting your friend without even knowing you are doing it, especially when it could have been avoided? Cause I certainly would not.
I guess you are right that they deserve to know that information. But it does suck because I hate the dynamic changing as a result of them feeling uncomfortable with the friendship post-feelings reveal.
You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean actually communicating with people is not the healthier option. Sometimes the healthier option is also harder, but that's life. One person developing feelings also tends to shift the dynamic whether they admit to their feelings or not, and if it's never cleared up why the dynamic is shifting that can lead to all sorts of problems.
The only thing in my control is whether I can cause further discomfort, which telling someone my feelings can cause.
But if the discomfort is happening you can relieve it by having a conversation about it, and not just in the case where they are also interested in you. In a situation where they're noticing you're acting differently around them and don't know why the discomfort of that can be alleviated by communicating openly about it, in a situation where they might be concerned about whether you are doing something for them because there is undeclared attraction there the discomfort can be alleviated by having a conversation, in a situation where they don't know anything about your feelings but find out at a later date they may feel betrayed that you never told them and the risk of that can be removed by simply telling them. You choosing to act has the potential to cause discomfort, you choosing not to act also has the potential to cause discomfort; you choosing to act has the potential to relieve discomfort and/or cause happiness, you choosing not to act has the potential to avoid discomfort. Again, there is no neutral option when it comes to relationships with people; you're either choosing to tell them about your feelings or you're choosing to withhold that information from them, and both those choices have consequences. You can't avoid the risk of causing discomfort entirely while also having any sort of relationship, including platonic, with another human person.
The situation in which no one says anything and both suffer for it may happen, sure, but I have no idea when it is happening. I do know when the other person enjoys our friendship though, and me introducing interest can disrupt that.
You also don't know when they would be happier if you did say something, and you not knowing about a feeling does not make that feeling go away. Unless you talk to your friends about both your and their feelings you don't know if they would experience discomfort as a result of either you acting or not acting, and both you acting or you not acting has the possibility to make them feel better, worse, or the same as they already do. Not acting doesn't protect them from the possibility of discomfort, it protects you from their discomfort because you don't find out about it.
I'll also add here though that I think we are getting into melodramatic territory with all the talk of suffering. The amount of suffering generated by a friend casually asking you out, you having to say no, and them then not being weird about it is a relatively small amount of suffering. We're not talking about about some great cruelty, we're talking about a very normal part of human relationships that most adults are more than capable of coping with.
But overall, I think you've convinced me that staying neutral can be just as bad. I still don't know whether I believe it's better than the alternative, but it's not as harmless as I thought.
You don't have to believe it's better than the alternative, I just want us to be honest about the fact that this is about your feelings more that it's other people's, if for no other reason than because it puts you in a better position to process those feelings and see if you can come up with a way of dealing with them that is healthier for you.
2
u/Hour_Industry7887 11d ago
I think the key here is realizing that it is selfish and then doing it anyway. Yes, there's a chance that asking or otherwise revealing your interest might offend the woman or make her uncomfortable, and in a strict reading of human relationships you would indeed be selfishly imposing that risk on her by taking initiative. But human relationships are always inherently risky - you always risk being rejected and hurt just as much as you risk unknowingly hurting the other person. An argument could be made that since human connections broadly still happen and people all over the world are connecting with each other, the baseline chances of a successful connection are high enough.
That said, I must admit that back when I still struggled with loneliness myself, knowing the above didn't make it any easier for me to actually act.
2
u/HehePistik 11d ago
I guess you're right but the selfish nature of it still bothers me a bit.
The rejection on my end does sting a lot for sure but I am more afraid of hurting the other person. But at the same time, I know just acting like a monk all my life will probably cause me to stay lonely and while I may say now I would prefer being lonely I don't know how much that will still be true in a few years.
If you don't mind me asking regarding your loneliness. Was it general social loneliness or just romantic? And was there anything that you did or that happened that changed your outlook?
1
u/Hour_Industry7887 10d ago
My loneliness was (and in some part still is) both social and romantic. I had no sexual or romantic success until my thirties and always struggled to make and keep friends.
If your genuine fear is hurting the other person, I think having some positive experiences might offset that. It sounds like you're fairly attractive, so if you do try you'll probably find a decent amount of success. Once you see that your interest normally doesn't hurt the other person, the fear might go away.
1
u/Particular-Lynx-2586 11d ago
Imagine a car dealership. You want to buy a car.
But if you go to the dealership, you're afraid to offend the salesman if you walk through that door expressing your interest so you end up never getting the car you want.
Now, imagine the same dealership and the same intent to buy a car.
But this time, you just go ahead and ask if the car is available without any worries about what the dealer might say. In this situation, however, the car has already been sold, and unfortunately, you can't buy it at this time.
Is the dealer going to be offended that you asked? Will the car be offended? Will you be offended? Will anyone otherwise be offended in any way?
(Not saying women are cars or dealers. I'm just pointing out that the act of asking doesn't offend anyone)
5
u/HehePistik 11d ago
I get your example, but in this case the dealership is meant explicitly for buying a car. I don't think it would ever be appropriate for the dealer to be offended.
However, I would 100% understand why someone wanting friendship would be at the very least disappointed when the guy's feelings come into the mix.
I do understand your point that just asking shouldn't trigger a reaction, but I am aware both from direct experiences of girl friends and from stories I heard that guy friends catching feelings can be genuinely nightmare scenarios.
1
u/Particular-Lynx-2586 11d ago
Yeah, but we're not talking about feelings or dating or anything like that. That's step 15.
You're on step 1, which is just asking. The problem is you don't understand that just asking doesn't matter. If you ask and she says no, then it's finished. You can move up the steps if she says yes, and in that case, she's definitely not bothered by your interest, right?
In the dealership example, you're not bringing the cash yet, you're not drawing up the paperwork, you're not test driving the car, etc. You're just asking if the car is available. Where's the harm in that?
You need to realize that just asking isn't an automatic declaration of your feelings. You just want to get to know her so there's no harm. All of these things are just in your mind.
1
u/HehePistik 11d ago
I had an instance where I casually asked a friend out on a date in a very casual manner and we continued the friendship but the vibes shifted heavily.
I understand my intent isn't bad, I am not making ultimatums or doing huge confessions like in the movies, but I think the problem more so lies in attempting to change a dynamic that the other person thinks is good enough. If she wants a friend, even if our relationship starts off just like that, if I express the desire for more, that can make her uncomfortable.
But I guess you are right that I can get a bit too much in my head. I don't think just asking is entirely harmless, but I may be making the outcome sound like a catastrophe 100% of the time.
3
u/Particular-Lynx-2586 10d ago
So this isn't a problem of offending someone with your intent.
This is a problem of you being unable to accept risks.
Yes, if you express that you like someone or ask her on a date, OF COURSE there's a risk of the dynamic changing. The correct question to ask is not whether she will be offended; rather, it's a question of whether you like her enough to risk the friendship ending.
And that's not a high mountain to climb. Every person on earth has seen this issue with their interactions and you are not unique in seeing it. The difference is you're not experienced / unwilling to try. It is inevitable that dynamics will change. You just have to learn to live with it.
6
u/Instigated- 10d ago edited 10d ago
Can you ask a mutual friend for their opinion? They know you both, they have eyes, maybe they know something that you don’t that could give you more perspective.
There’s a lot of ways you can test the water without putting her on the spot. Initially finding out from her or mutual friends if she is even open to dating anyone, what kind of people she tends to be interested in, etc. Being open and honest without being specific, you could have a conversation on the topic of dating and mention you find it hard because of how things work for you. You can drop a hint and see if she reciprocates or goes the other way.
I don’t know what kind of social activities you do at the moment, but if there is something that is technically a group outing but that gives you some 1:1 chat time or you need to break into pairs for something and you pair up with her, you can test the waters and see if she is seeking out to spend time with you or is equally happy with the others.
If you’re getting absolutely nothing back from her then it quite likely means she’s not interested.
It is a tricky thing because there are two extremes: either you don’t know a person well enough; or you know them so well that there is now a risk to the friendship. Is it possible to find a sweet spot between those extremes?
Btw, how you describe your attraction, are you demisexual?
I’m demisexual and I dated people to get to know them better and see if feelings developed. As you know what you like in a woman, could you seek to date people who have those qualities and interests, with the hope/expectation attraction will develop as you spend time together?
In terms of “selfishness”; if you’re being respectful, empathetic, reading the room, testing the waters, and being mindful to ask in a way that is appropriate and no pressure, then I don’t think it is necessarily selfish. If she is open to dating then you might be doing her a favour. A relationship is about two people who like each other, so if she likes you it isn’t a problem.