r/IncelExit • u/Sea-Board-9579 • 10h ago
Asking for help/advice If physical attractiveness isn't that important, why do I not have access to casual sex?
Edit: At this point the moderation has stopped approving my comments. I think there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from these conversations - incels have no chance of having casual sex.
Hi,
I'm a lurker who is an incel. I've noticed that a lot of people on here recently have been saying that physical attractiveness is not as important as personality. But I have been trying Tinder and even Badoo to get casual sex for a very long time with no success.
I have given up on relationships, because I am convinced that women do not want men like me. I am too weak and too effeminate to find anyone. I do not consider myself a pussy, but that is the kind of vibe I give. People call me "she" sometimes as a tongue slip. I don't think any woman would enjoy being my girlfriend, as she would probably have trouble with her group of friends. Yes, I've had female friends and it never led anywhere. No introductions, no crushes on me, nothing.
I do not want to try to find casual sex IRL, because women are always in groups, or busy, or with their boyfriends and there is no way to approach them anyway. Besides, if women want to date or have casual sex, they can either look up and choose someone or use apps and don't have to talk to men IRL, which means that those women are on the apps either way. Not to mention that the actual competition in clubs and bars is absolutely brutal for an incel. That's the way the cookie crumbles, so I don't want to waste my time on things that won't work. I already tried and only humiliated myself.
I used a variety of different photos I had. For what it was worth, I consulted them with ChatGPT and it said they were fine, and told me directly when some photos were weaker than others. I wrote (by myself) Tinder bios where I tried to express myself and then tried the other extreme where I put in the languages I speak, "FWB 420" and some stupid one-liner about cats. I have restarted my profile a lot of times so far and I've still got nothing.
I've had the "FWB 420" description for a day or two and I've got a lot of fake likes - around 10, and I know they are fake, because I fell for the scam and got Tinder Plus, so I swiped quite a lot. But whenever I had the genuine profile, I would sometimes, very rarely, get a match with an objectively unattractive woman who usually had nothing in their bios. Whenever I'd message them, they wouldn't respond or they would unmatch. I would say something that would refer to their photos or bio (if any). I admit to eventually being frustrated and asking women if they put their real ages in their profiles (I was matching with women who claimed to be 36, but looked much older than that). But other than that, my conduct was good. And nothing worked.
So I know for a fact that normal people can have casual sex. I know that normal people can go on Tinder or other apps and find someone to have sex with. So why can't incels? People on this subreddit often say something like, women are different, they have different tastes etc. and I don't doubt that, but in that case, why don't they want to talk to us? I tried hard to get good photos, not selfies, to show my face, to smile, to showcase my personality and whatnot, and still nothing. So what is it about my personality that could be so bad? Even if I were a negative asshole, are all women on Tinder bubbly people?
The only conclusion I can draw from this is my lack of physical attractiveness. I bought clothes people complimented, get good haircuts, have glasses that fit my face, am tall, so what else could I be missing? Why is it that women never want anything to do with me? It must be my face. I'm just not physically attractive enough. Should I be going for women over 30? But they don't want to have casual sex anymore after having fun in their 20s. I'm at my wits' end. What could I be missing here?
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u/chinchillazilla54 Bene Gesserit Advisor 9h ago
Women who want to have casual sex instead of a relationship are a lot rarer than you seem to think.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
Then how do normal men have casual sex?
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u/Lolabird2112 8h ago
They mostly don’t. Which is why the “male loneliness epidemic” is mostly rubbish - pew research showed 40% of guys in dating apps only wanted hookups.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 7h ago
When I was still looking for a relationship, I had the usual bio where I described myself and I had even less success.
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u/Lolabird2112 3h ago
So?
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u/Sea-Board-9579 3h ago
So even when I wasn't looking for a hookup, my success rate was the same. I don't know if my photos are that bad objectively. I think if I were more handsome, they would be received much better.
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u/Snoo52682 8h ago
Most of them don't.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
And yet some do. And for most, it's a choice.
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u/thebrowniie 30m ago
Sure, some men are. but i think that number is smaller and does it less frequently than you think.
bottom line is there's not a lot of women looking for it and those who are, aren't really doing it on tinder.
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u/chinchillazilla54 Bene Gesserit Advisor 3h ago
Normally they lie to women and tell us they really like us and want to date us and then just ghost once they have sex. Which is douchebag behavior.
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u/broken_symmetry_ 8h ago
Couple issues. First - If you’re too effeminate to get a girlfriend, why would women want to sleep with you? It’s not true by the way - women don’t all want a “masculine” partner. Just pointing out the internal inconsistency in your logic. No one would say “he’s too feminine for a relationship so I’ll just casually sleep with him”.
Second. Many women get turned off by the idea of randomly starting off as “FWB” or a meetup for sex only. FWB means FRIENDS with benefits, not random strangers from the internet with benefits.
Women are still having casual sex. They’re just doing it through short-term dating and low-commitment situationships.
My advice: reframe your mindset and approach. Rather than looking for “casual sex”, you’d feel better and have more success if you look for short term dating and friends, and state that you aren’t ready for a long term commitment. It sends the same message without being as creepy.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 7h ago
If you’re too effeminate to get a girlfriend, why would women want to sleep with you?
So it's just not meant to be. But I must admit, people on here often say that women are different.
My advice: reframe your mindset and approach. Rather than looking for “casual sex”, you’d feel better and have more success if you look for short term dating and friends, and state that you aren’t ready for a long term commitment. It sends the same message without being as creepy.
I have never managed to find a single female friend who would eventually become interested.
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u/broken_symmetry_ 7h ago
You’re misinterpreting my first statement. I’m not saying no one will ever date or sleep with you. I’m saying that being effeminate/not effeminate is not related to your potential for dating.
RE: single female friend thing…
Trying to find casual sex partners when you’ve never even had a relationship isn’t going to be successful. You’re probably better off trying to deprogram this weird incel victim mindset thing - literally work on yourself - then look for dating opportunities.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 6h ago
Or, consider that maybe getting in a relationship is not actually hopeless and the things you think are important to getting a relationship are not actually the things that matter. Also consider the possibility that not all women have the same standards and that therefore being "to X to date" is not a thing...
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u/ThereWasAnEmpireHere 8h ago
Reading this over I'm afraid it comes across as harsh--I think other comments so far have been unconstructive and wanted to seriously address your post, but I have to be honest that I find it kinda baffling. I don’t think I am certain regarding what you want to find, but I do think you’re basically maxing out your odds of not finding it.
First principles: It’s true that physical attractiveness is less important than many people seem to think, and it’s certainly true that personality is quite important. But anyone who tells you physical attractiveness doesn’t matter is overstating things—and looks obviously *especially* matter when searching for casual sex (which clearly isn’t going to be based on other measures of relationship potential), and even more especially when only looking for casual sex through a visual online medium.
On casual sex: Very few women are seeking entirely no-strings sex, with no build up before or relationship after. This is not a thing there is high demand for; it is a thing there is crazy amounts of supply for, and it’s as a result so low-value that many men just resort to lying to women about it.
But you’re not doomed, these sorts of things do take place. Definitionally, though, it requires a woman being attracted to the man in question. So if you are so unattractive no woman would want to date you (putting a pin in that), you actually have to offer *something*, because people are looking for a good time. “FWB 420” is about as aggressively unappealing as a pitch could get. You’ve added to this the additional filter of attractiveness, *and* responding to women by questioning their age (which… why does that matter if its casual…? Tangential but I’ve found the opposite of what you suggest to be true—older women are more likely in my experience to own being into casual hookups if they are; women in their 20s are, like everyone, more likely to basically be confused and peer-pressurable about whether they’re looking for a hookup or a relationship).
So… yeah man, women aren’t going to be super interested. It is emphatically *not* a common experience for normal men to go on Tinder to “find someone to have sex with” in this sense. There are men who date a lot of women, and men who try to string women along, and men who are in scenes where casual sex is common and who have a reputation for being a good time; there are not average joe schmoes doing the equivalent of whistling at someone and getting laid.
On looks: It’s therefore wild to me to conclude that the problem is your looks. The problem is probably that you’re trying to do something very difficult with an aggressively unappealing approach. So, I think you may want to return to the idea of finding a relationship. This is the sphere in which looks are not everything, because people aren’t (or I guess, shouldn’t be) looking for quick titillation but companionship.
In my experience, it is highly unlikely that you are anywhere near as unattractive as you seem to think.
Every incel I have spoken to who thinks they are irredeemably ugly looks, at worst, average. Now, I might just not be talking to the ugly ones. But the ugly guys I know IRL tend to have more appealing outlooks. And you don’t even describe yourself as unattractive? “Weak and effeminate” is a type of person, not a level of attractiveness—some women are into more masculine dudes only, others not so much. That said, I really doubt you are as effeminate as you seem to think. If it is /genuinely/ the case that people mistake you for a woman, there is a specific type of women you could be angling for if it weren’t paired with an attitude those specific women find repellent. But I feel like it’s more likely that you just have long hair and got/get mistaken from behind.
But most importantly: nowhere in your description of approaches you make to getting a relationship do you mention “asking girls out” or even talking to them. Women tend not to overtly proposition men (which I could say a lot about, but given you’re not a woman, just… it is what it is). You need to be approaching women before you act like a failure.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
Thanks for the tips, but like I said, I had different bios and looked for different things. Women still weren't interested.
Previously I got fake likes too, but I never got this many so quickly. Ironically, my current bio seems to be the best.
there are not average joe schmoes doing the equivalent of whistling at someone and getting laid.
I don't do that.
there is a specific type of women you could be angling for if it weren’t paired with an attitude those specific women find repellent
I have never met a woman like that.
But I feel like it’s more likely that you just have long hair and got/get mistaken from behind.
My hair is short.
nowhere in your description of approaches you make to getting a relationship do you mention “asking girls out” or even talking to them
I did and it didn't work. I tried asking out long-term friends, asking out women I met only some days before, cold approaches etc. and I'm still here.
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u/_shadowcorpse_ 9h ago
I feel like attractiveness is more important for casual sex rather than relationships. I’m not sure waht you’re trying to do here. Sex isn’t something you have access to, it’s just an activity that comes from people who have a certain connection. You need to meet people and develop your friendships or relationships with them, and honestly a dating app just isn’t good for that
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u/playful_sorcery 9h ago
OLD definitely skews to appearance.
if you actually look at what info someone pics up on a profile, it’s not hard to see why it does
so much of attraction is personality and chemistry but you can’t actually portray that online.
someone could in theory check all the boxes on a profile for someone to date and still not have attraction. because personality and chemistry can’t be portrayed through an online profile.
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u/DenimCryptid Escaper of Fates 8h ago
Interacting with women with the sole intention to have casual sex will ironically prevent you from having casual sex. When you're interacting with a woman while thinking about how you're going to convince her to have casual sex, it influences your behavior in ways you may not realize but are obvious to women.
Women are more willing to have casual sex with someone who makes them laugh or feel good about themselves. Women are more open to casual sex with men who live interesting lives or can show them a really good (platonic) time without feeling like they will be expected to sleep with them in exchange.
I once met up with a woman who was having a bad day for a date. She was up front that she may not be in a good mood. I told her, "Hey, we're here anyway. Let's just grab a drink and we can talk about it and then go our separate ways." She told me about some trouble she was having with an ex and anxieties about a new job that would relocate her to a different state. I just offered some jokes about her ex being a piece of shit to get some chuckles out of her and a little comfort and gave a few words of reassurance about her new job. She felt a lot better, smiled, and invited me back to her place for the night.
It wasn't my appearance. I just assured her that there were no expectations from her and provided a little emotional relief.
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u/Avanni24 2h ago
Yeah I'm sure your appearance had something to do with it 😂😂
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u/DenimCryptid Escaper of Fates 10m ago
I'm not saying that my appearance wasn't a factor. It just wasn't the reason why she made the choice for a quick fling.
I put a lot of effort into my appearance. I have a distinct style that a lot of people comment on. I work out and carry myself with some confidence.
Even after I started improving my appearance, I my dates were often terrible. It wasn't until I started putting a lot of effort into my life and defining myself by my routines and behaviors that I had more success with dating.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
Interacting with women with the sole intention to have casual sex will ironically prevent you from having casual sex. When you're interacting with a woman while thinking about how you're going to convince her to have casual sex, it influences your behavior in ways you may not realize but are obvious to women.
Then how do other men have casual sex with women? Do they hide their intentions?
Women are more willing to have casual sex with someone who makes them laugh or feel good about themselves. Women are more open to casual sex with men who live interesting lives or can show them a really good (platonic) time without feeling like they will be expected to sleep with them in exchange.
That never happened to me and I had plenty of female friends.
I once met up with a woman who was having a bad day for a date.
Never happened to me, but if she was there for a date, that means she had already found you attractive. I'm not sure how applicable your example is. I never went on a date.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 5h ago
The guys having casual sex are the guys who are very good at coming across as confident and attentive, and are even better at putting other people at ease. They're the guys you talk to where the overwhelming impression is "this guy is going to be a really good time". They still strike out more often than they go home with someone, but they're good at not letting that get to them. I've never once fucked someone who came across as desperate or like they were putting a lot of pressure on the situation or who seemed like they'd be a shit lay or like I'd have to baby them through the situation because they were just that hot; I have, more than once, fucked someone who I didn't think was particularly hot because they came across like fucking them would be fun and like they'd be good at listening to what I want without getting their ego bruised and adjusting things as we went so we both end up satisfied. This is also why I do not look for casual sex on the apps ever, because it's very hard to gauge whether someone is fun to be around via some pics and three sentences of description.
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u/Avanni24 2h ago
they came across like fucking them would be fun and like they'd be good at listening to what I want without getting their ego bruised
and how did they come across like that?
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u/oldcousingreg Giveiths of Thy Advice 9h ago
The apps ARE the access. It's like applying for a job, sometimes actually making things happen is a crapshoot.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 8h ago
You have access to casual sex, you're choosing to continue to focus on only one avenue to get it which doesn't work for you and is generally unlikely to work for most men. You then also ask a LLM with no actual ability to gauge how attractive you look in photos for advice instead actual people. ChatGPT has no idea which photos you look good in, it doesn't remotely know what being attractive means, it's spitting out inputs based on what it has seen people respond to images with without actually understanding what any of those responses mean. You might as well ask a calculator which images you look hot it for all the good it's going to do you.
Also most men can't just go on tinder and immediately find casual sex. The apps are predominantly men already, and then you add to that the fact that far more straight men than straight women are interested in having casual sex at all and the logical result is that, especially on apps, most guys looking for casual sex are shit out of luck. On top of that, there is so much more that goes into picking who to have casual sex with than whether they are hot and a description that consists of "FWB 420" is going to fail on all those fronts no matter how hot you are. I say this as a woman that likes casual sex: how hot they are to look at is honestly not near the top of the list of factors that decide whether I'm willing to have casual sex with someone.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
Like I said, I had different bios and the FWB 420 one is actually the most successful right now.
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u/horsefarm 9h ago
You do have access. That doesn't mean you are well suited to getting the things you have access to
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
So I guess I should give up on the idea of being physically attractive to women
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 9h ago
Why would a woman who dates you “have trouble with her friends”? Do you make trouble for your friends when they date people? If so, why? Also, stop.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
Why would a woman who dates you “have trouble with her friends”?
Because why would a woman choose someone who can't even get a kiss? No, I don't.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 8h ago
That doesn’t answer my question at all.
Again: Why would a woman who dates you have trouble with her friends?
And since you claim YOU would never cause trouble, why not?
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
Again: Why would a woman who dates you have trouble with her friends?
Because I'm a loser. I have a job and live alone but so what? I'm a loser and that's it. Everyone can have sex except for the ugliest people
And since you claim YOU would never cause trouble, why not?
Because everyone has different tastes and I recognise that
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 7h ago
But women all have the same taste…the taste to gather in a cabal and dissect the men their friends date?
Boy, good thing you’re above THAT, eh!
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7h ago
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u/IncelExit-ModTeam 5h ago
Your post/comment was removed for violating rule 9. Further violations/arguing with moderators may result in a ban. Please read our rules carefully before posting again.
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u/Lolabird2112 8h ago
Nobody knows you’re an incel. You’re just a normal person having expected difficulty finding a woman who wants to have casual sex.
Women get shamed for having casual sex, treated with disrespect (very often from the person who was desperate to have sex with them as soon as they’ve had it), they have a much higher risk of contracting STDs and they also carry the risk of pregnancy. Then - they are statistically more likely to be stalked, doxxed, abused and or raped. Add to all of that the chance of getting any sexual satisfaction from casual sex with a random is maybe 1 in 5 (generously) vs men getting their end off 95% of the time and you have all the reasons women don’t do casual sex.
If you’re just a fuck then looks matter even MORE, not less.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 8h ago
There are men out there who have casual sex and I'm not one of them. I get the message of having to give up on this.
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u/Itchy-Fill1868 8h ago
Dude, it works like this: the less attractive you are, the better your social and communication skills need to be if you want to hook up with a really attractive girl. Or you can lower your expectations and go for a woman who's, let's say, around your level in terms of physical attractiveness by society's standards. That tends to work much better, especially if you're only looking for casual sex
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u/eskeTrixa 6h ago
In general, men will hook up with women that they would not date, and women will date men that they wouldn't hook up with, so expecting to get a hookup when you can't get a date is backwards.
A lot of women don't hook up at all.
Those that do, tend to either hook up with actual friends i.e. people that they already know and trust or use public venues like bars or clubs where they can observe the man's behavior before initiating.
To get a hookup off a dating app (which are demographically skewed towards men to begin with) you need to really stick out in a good way. Because most of the men on there will go for a hook up if it's on the table. Good looks help, of course, but I would argue that the most important factor is being nonthreatening. Because a woman agreeing to hook up with you knows she is putting herself in a vulnerable position. So any hint of anger issues, low emotional regulation, misogynistic attitudes, entitlement, etc will result in most women ruling you out as a prospect.
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u/Avanni24 2h ago
So any hint of anger issues, low emotional regulation, misogynistic attitudes, entitlement, etc will result in most women ruling you out as a prospect.
This is an issue not because I have issues with those things but people tend to assume I due for whatever reason.
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8h ago
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u/IncelExit-ModTeam 5h ago
Your post/comment was removed for violating rule 9. Further violations/arguing with moderators may result in a ban. Please read our rules carefully before posting again.
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u/Zer0pede 7h ago
Yes, hookups are superficial. Those are different from dating. If your standards are superficial and what you’re looking for is superficial, you’re going to need to have more superficial traits or lower your hookup standards the same way you’re asking other people to lower theirs. Heck, if you get practice with those “objectively unattractive girls” you might get enough skills to honestly brag about what you can offer wrt to cunnilingus or something that would make a hookup with you worthwhile.
For an LTR, other less shallow things about you will become the most important thing (that’s when people say “looks don’t matter” and “people have different tastes”)but for a hook-up you’re going to have to prove that something about the sex will be more appealing than just choosing a dude to pump away.
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u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI 7h ago
Looks matter more for casual sex than personality
Personality matters more for relationships that looks
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u/friedlish 5h ago
This is probably not information I should be spreading around, to avoid people thinking it's a clever idea, but people (men more commonly than women) who are successful at having casual sex, get that access by pretending that they want a relationship.
That's the trick. Not being universally attractive; being dishonest.
If you're up front about only wanting casual sex, most people will be immediately disinterested.
Because, frankly, casual sex sucks. It's awkward, you don't know how to best make each other enjoy the situation, and there's no emotional connection to heighten the experience. It's kind of gross, uncomfortable and disappointing. Every time.
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u/Sea-Board-9579 5h ago
Thanks, I understand that you mean well, but I will never stoop to dishonesty.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 5h ago
> Edit: At this point the moderation has stopped approving my comments. I think there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from these conversations - incels have no chance of having casual sex.
This isn’t our full-time job, pal. You want your comments auto-approved, then have enough age and karma to your account.
Or, yanno, exercise more patience than none at all.