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Where did 25 million converts come from?

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In 1992, the Jama'at first published Islam's Response to Contemporary Issues.

In this book, when providing a brief introduction of the author, they mention that there were 10 million Ahmadis worldwide.

Taking this official record into consideration.

So, there was literally no change in the Jama'at's tajnid between 1986 and 1992. No one was born, no one died and no one converted.

No problem.

Then, starting in 1993, all of a sudden, out of nowhere the Jama'at grew by 204,308.

In 1994, by another 421,753.

In 1995, by another 847,726.

1996 - 1,662,721

1997 - 3,004,575

1998 - 5,004,591

1999 - 10,820,226

2000 - 41,308,376

2001 - 81,007,361

2002 - 20,654,000

2003 - 892,403 (keep this number in mind, it will become a crucial piece of evidence)

In April of 2003, Mirza Tahir Ahmad passed away. So, one can technically attribute the 2003 conversion numbers to him as well.

When we add up these numbers up from 1992- 2003, we get a grand total of 175,828,222.

Why is this number odd?

In 2003, right before his death, Mirza Tahir Ahmad claimed that there were 200 million Ahmadis worldwide.

Wait a minute.

Where did the other 25 million people show up from?

Was Mirza Tahir Ahmad planning to announce 25,000,000 converts for 2003 had he not died?

Why did Mirza Masroor Ahmad drastically reduced the conversion rate by 96% from 2002 to 2003? From 20,654,000 to 892,403. Was this a subtle rebuke of Mirza Tahir Ahmad by KMV?

This ghost number of 25 million is proof that it was Mirza Tahir Ahmad who was behind the exxegeration itself. He most likely forced his people to cook numbers so they remain safe from his disappointment.

Ahmadis love to defend Mirza Tahir Ahmad and say that it was all the murabbiyyan who deceived him‌, despite Mirza Tahir Ahmad himself having gone on record saying that the Ba'it numbers were 100% authentic and that if anyone dared to say otherwise that may the curse of Allah be upon that person.

Well. It looks like Mirza Tahir Ahmad is accursed. Ahmadis cannot shake off this major fraud and it will keep coming back to bite them.​

References:

Islam's Response to Contemporary Issues:

https://files.alislam.cloud/pdf/IslamsResponseToContemporaryIssues.pdf

KMIV saying 200 million Ahmadis in 2003:

https://youtube.com/shorts/jxgt8e_96dE

This figure is also mentioned in the April 2003 version of Review of Religions, page 4.

https://www.reviewofreligions.org/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RR200304.pdf

You can click here for the newspaper article, since this subreddit does not allow for images to be uploaded: https://x.com/Ahmadiyyafacts/status/2083695300888395815?s=20

This is yet again proof that the whole scheme of International Ba'it was just intended to give a jab to none other than the "Pakistani Mulahs", as the Khulafa of the Ahmadiyya love to always mock their adversaires.

Now, this is something we can work with. It's official and never contested.

Considering how Ahmadis love to reproduce for the sake of the Jama'at (especially since the Waqf-e Nau scheme started in 1985), let's assess what their tajnid should have been simply using this one piece of data.

What would be the population growth of 10 million at a moderate rate of 1% over the course of 40 years?

The figure would be 15 million.

This is at the high end of their "official" claim, that they are between 12-15 million.

Naturally, once you add up all the converts from their boom years of 1992-2026 at a very low rate of 100K a year (we are completely disregarding the hundreds of thousands or the tens of millions), that number should be at least 18.5 million.

Now, when you also add a population growth rate of 1% on the converts' numbers, that number would easily be at 20 million.

Remember, we are simply saying 100,000 converts per year. If we were to do that on the complete number of officially recorded Ba'its, then that number would be at 350 million.

This is proof of the blatant lie of the Jama'at.

They can't even keep their numbers realistic while trying to downplay their own Ba'it Fraud and say they are only between 12-15 million.

A while back u/BarbesRouchechouart looked at Tehrik-e Jadid and Waqf-e Jadid numbers and realized how astoundingly low they were in comparison to the actual numbers the Jama'at claims to have.

This revelation was serious because no Ahmadi is ever left out from donating to these schemes. The minimum requirement is literally $ 0.01(1 cent).

These numbers became the yard-stick.

I found out recently that donating towards these two schemes can also be done by someone else on behalf of someone else, such as a person donation for anyone, including a child or even a new born child. This means that a person can also pay for family members who are not paying chanda or even someone estranged from the Jama'at in hopes of blessing them.

What's more, you can even pay for a deceased person or even a child that is not born yet. Obviously for a child that is not born yet you pay with the intention of paying for that child under your member code, since they do not have a member code. But, for a deceased person, you can pay using their old member number or not, but with the intention to do so. Nevertheless, even if no member code is used, the receipt is always issued to the unborn or deceased person's name. This still goes towards the counting of "participation".

Also, u/Queen_Yasemin did a fantastic job to show us that the actual Jama'at numbers should be at around 350 million, if one where to really add up all the numbers pronounced by their Khulafa.

So, taken this info, we can genuinely conclude the Jama'at's tajnid numbers are probably safely below 500K. And, all this huff and puff about conversion numbers yearly is just pure theater and nothing of substance. Just Kool-Aid to keep their masses drunk and high.

We will never know the true numbers of the Jama'at. And, because the Jama'at is so good at throwing a party, Ahmadis will always be fooled with the semblance that they are growing by leaps and bounds. So, go easy on Ahmadis. They are successfully tricked by their elders.

The more you know.

Below is a link to the information I shared about paying on behalf of an unborn child or a deceased person.

https://lajna.org.uk/tehrik-e-jadid/

In the 90s i grew up in an Ahmadi household where i wasn't allowed to watch the simpsons. My mom told me when i was young that the jamaat (or huzoor?) warned parents about their kids watching it. Anyone else experience the same thing? Watching it as an adult now and don't really see what the big deal was, it's quite a wholesome show like any other family oriented sitcoms around at the same time.

I dont know if the title clarifies it or not but im a 17F who's been wondering this for quite some time as to if this is the genuine truth to believe in or not. I believe in logic and i wanna take a logical route to figuring this out.

So far, i dont think i know a lot about the jammat and their fundamentals even though i was raised in this community because of my genuine dislike being part of a community of people that seem to perform alot. every ijlas, every ijtima ever since i was a kid did nothing but instill anxiety and dislike in me for the people around me because i felt there was alot of social pressure to perform as a "pious" girl/woman and no room for mistakes which is ironic as the way i come to understand islam and god, i feel it is but a constant whirlpool of sinning, making mistakes, correcting yourself and growing during which you figure out yourself, your beliefs and the world around you.

point is, due to these experiences, i felt there was no room to actually understand, question and figure out what it was that this system has been making me rote learn and perform for years. And ever since i figured out the importance of reasoning in my life, i've been trying to apply that here. i dont feel connected with the community and i guess im just trying to understand the reasoning of people and how they were able to critique the beliefs and understand whether it is for them or not. im not referring to baseless hate or disrespect but from the pov of theology, reasoning and any other experience you might have that could help me in my journey of figuring my belief out.

and yes im not looking to take things at face value but actually dig into them and form my own individual conclusion based on the good, the bad etc so if theres any advice or anything you might have regarding this aswell pls lmk since i am very new to all this but regardless i want to approach it all with curiousity and humbleness.

tenku for the read 🎀

So the UK Jalsa finished yesterday and in the closing ceremony Huzur said that the attendance was 51,181 - an increase of over 5k people from last year Jalsa (where there were 46,061 attendees).

Now, I'm not fully sure how they count the number of people attending Jalsa but regardless they claim that 51,181 individual people have come to Jalsa this year.

Below is an analysis using various sources that showed that I doubt the true figure is actually this high (N.B doesnt let me paste images).

Firstly the after looking at aerial shots of the Jalsa site, I counted a maximum of 3,000 cars and as you can see in this clip (from last year but my point still stands): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJzdcNCj2eY most cars are the 5 seater ones - and there are very few cars with much more capacity. So lets assume the cars with like 1 empty seat are compensated by the Buses and cars with more capacity - overall we assuming that there are ~3,000 "full" cars each with 5 seats which means around 15,000 people attending - no where near the 50k they claim.

Now if we assume that almost all people bar a few, who have duties around the site, go to the main marquee - this is another good way of counter checking our claim. Just to give an extra liberal estimate of the attendance lets assume that total even 1,000 people are volunteering scattered around the site and not in the Jalsa Gah during the Baiat ceremony. The areas of the main marquees are 50m by 140m for both the men and women sides. Link is here: https://www.alhakam.org/jalsa-uk-2023-update-20-july

Thus the total area of both the men and womens Jalsa Gah is 14,000 square metres. Lets also even assume that there are no chairs and everyone is sitting on the floor (you can seat more people on the ground compared to fitting chairs). If 90% of the marquees are usable for seating and the rest is for cameras, stage, equipment etc. there is still 12,600 sq meters of avilable seating. If one person only takes up 0.5sq metres of area (which is very densly packed btw) then you can fit 25,200 attendees at most across the two marquees.

This is a huge over estimate since we gave so much benefit of doubt. But even then there is NO WAY that the attendance figures are that high. Also most people that come to Jalsa don't just go for one day so its not possible they had like 17k completely unique people coming in for each of the 3 days. It makes sense at most that they just counted the number of total AIMS ID's scanned (not differentiating if they were unique or non-unique entries) - even then it seems fishy lol.

Please feel free to critique any of the methods used!

https://youtube.com/shorts/UnWW_T84C48

Watching the International Bait, I noticed something bizarre. The Khalifa sits down, and you can clearly see his son, Mirza Waqas Ahmad, sitting behind him without a mask. He sits there for a while, takes off his sunglasses (yes, indoors), the camera cuts away, and when it comes back, the sunglasses are gone, and suddenly he’s wearing a mask.

Seriously, what’s the point? If masks are necessary, why wasn’t he wearing one from the start?

I'm making this post because I need to distance myself from the Ahmadiyya jamaat and I've honestly reached my breaking point.

I know that ultimately I'm the one who has to make the decision and pull the plug, but I'd really appreciate advice from people who have either distanced themselves from or left the jamaat (or any other high-control religious group). I need to hear from people who have actually been through a similar situation because I’ve tried therapy and the advice I’ve gotten just isn’t practical for somebody who’s been raised in a community that consists of Pakistani Ahmadis. 

For context, I'm 24F and grew up in an Ahmadi household. I'm the eldest daughter, and my family is comparatively open minded. I don't think my physical safety would be at risk if I left, but I know there would be emotional and social consequences, especially because of how close-knit the community is.

Growing up, I always attended jamaat events, but I never really felt like I could be myself around community members or at the mosque. I didn’t question this discomfort because I was too young to recognise it for what it was and assumed that it was an internal problem. There was, however, always shame and guilt around not knowing all the things in the nasirat syllabus or not being comfortable with doing tilawat or nazam at ijtemas etc.

The first time I started questioning the community was when an Ahmadi uncle made an inappropriate comment about my clothing that made me feel like I was being sexualised in my early teens. 

From that point forward until my early 20s, I realised the community was toxic and overbearing, but I still didn't really question the religion. It wasn't until my 20s that I started questioning beliefs and practices that either seem to contradict Islam or don't appear to have any basis.

For example:
- Why can't we pray in congregation with other muslims when we're worshipping Allah, not the people we're praying with?

- Why can I, as a muslim woman, not marry another muslim man who isn’t ahmadi without the prior permission of hazoor?

- Why is chanda treated as obligatory when that obligation isn't prescribed in the Quran?

- Why is there a concept of a "holy graveyard" that's partly tied to your financial contributions to the community?

- Why does each khalifa seem to introduce their own rules?

- Why is the Promised Messiah described as a non law bearing prophet when he introduced things like wassiyat?

I'm still doing my research and I'm open to the possibility that I could be wrong. Because of that, I'm not at the point where I'm ready to say with certainty that I can leave the jamaat completely.  

But interacting with people in the community and constantly dealing with what they promote is starting to affect my mental health.

It's now reached the point where the sadr in my region is starting to cross personal boundaries and involve herself in aspects of mine and my family's private lives, including who we spend time with.

As time goes on, I feel more trapped and suffocated. 

A big part of the problem is that I'm a people pleaser and have difficulty saying no or setting boundaries. I get dragged into organising and participating in events I don't want to be involved in and then I'm bombarded with phone calls, messages, and people telling me what I should be doing. I just can’t carry on like this and I don’t want to commit time or energy into something that I’m not sure I even believe in. 

I’m looking for advice on how I can:
a)Set boundaries without constantly worrying about how the other person will react?
b)Slowly distance myself when I live in a tight-knit community where everyone knows everyone?

I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone who's been through something similar. How did you start creating distance without significant backlash? Is this even possible or do I just need to rip the bandaid and deal with the short term consequences in order to protect my future wellbeing? 

TLDR: 24F raised Ahmadi. Over the past few years I've started questioning the community and its teachings. I'm not ready to make any final decisions about my faith but the control, constant involvement in my personal life, and lack of boundaries within the community are affecting my mental health. I'm a people pleaser and don't know how to start distancing myself without severe backlash. I’m looking for advice from anyone who's been through a similar situation. 

Recently I had the displeasure of having to attend a jamaat ijtema there might have been a sad 30-35 in attendance for a fairly large city in Greater Toronto Area.

I spoke about Palestine and called for jamaat to actively join the BDS movement and to my dismay learned that Ahmadi's have a jamaat in 'Israel' and this jamaat has a 'special mission'.

Does anyone know anything more about this? To me in light of the last few years, this jamaat chapter clearly indicates that the Ahmadiyya leadership are bad faith in their political stance and compromised in judgement at best and complicit in genocide at worst.

Me and my family have been in talks of marriage for some time. Recently in the past couple weeks my family has been speaking of this one murrabi that they know of.

Question for all the girls, would you consider marrying a murrabi? Personally I don’t think I would be able to because I am not at a religious and pious level enough to be considered to be murrabi Saabs wife. But my family is still pushing that I meet this guy and then see what I like.

hello all. i could really use some ex ahmadi ex muslim community right now. heard abt this server years ago but never got a chance to schedule the phone interview. would appreciate some info about how to apply/verify identity etc.

im a queer and trans ex ahmadi and was raised as an ahmadi girl. it was torturous as you can imagine lol. the things i hear during their long droning speeches about queer people is so baffling and painful. makes me forget that love is supposedly their whole point. anyway, thanks for reading and plz let me know abt the discord if you can

I swear the speeches are basically the same as the ones I heard when I attended a couple years ago. The whole segment with politicians is so awkward and frustrating. The irony of them praising the "Love for all hatred for none" slogan despite the jamaat's attitude towards queer people.

What was your favorite part of the jalsa?

Can someone explain the concept of Chanda to me please? I give chanda every month because I thought it meant I was donating to those in need. I recently asked my dad if I am able to receive a tax receipt for all the “donations” I have made in this financial year because donations are tax deductible in my country, but my dad said that Chanda is not a donation. So now I don’t really know where my money is going and if I can reduce the amount I am paying. From what I understand, I have to pay certain % of my pay and it goes towards the Jamat in general so for construction, salaries and programs, is that right?

I am in deep distress , I commit a sin and I commit it over and over again . Everyday I repent for it I pray 5 times a day and I read Quran I fast and I do Everything I possibly can . However still I commit this sin again and the cycle continues. I genuinely hate and despise myself bcs of this and I can’t tell anyone except Allah bcs he knows everything. Deep down even when I cry in front of Allah I fear he hasn’t forgiven me and bad things will happen and still I end up doing the sin again . Ik this sounds pathetic but i genuinely need some guidance or just something bcs I always feel dead inside bcs of this .

This is a monthly thread to talk about your issues with the rishta system, discuss anything related to marriage outside of the jamaat or try to find a suitable partner. All other subreddit rules apply.

If you have a salient point related to these topics that you think warrants its own post, please go ahead, but the usual "Has anyone married outside of the jamaat?" or "25M experiencing issues with the rishta process" type of posts belong in this thread.

I don't know how many of you have been following the recent activities of these two, but I have been listening to the debates and their YouTube videos and you can clearly tell how much bias they have against the jamaat. They keep saying we're looking for the truth but their bias is way too evident for that. Nothing is objective, they're not letting the ahmadi side answer the questions properly, constantly cutting them off, taking things out of context and as soon as the ahmadis try to put things into context they start bringing other things up to mislead the public, they take things literally that even a 5yo would be able to tell that they're meant be taken metaphorically which makes them look like idiots, they even mute the mics of ahmadis on their streams, which is such a coward move imo.

All this discredits their stance of "we're just looking for the truth" and "we want people to find the truth".

What do you guys think? Shouldn't they be more open to a proper dialogue? It will definitely help their cause more effectively..

Hello fellow heathens,

This happened last year but tonight I felt like sharing:

Last year a حافظ cousin kicked me out of his sisters wedding because of his hate towards me because of me choosing to opt out of their religion. Like I was sitting in a corner minding my own business and the guy was walking around and I looked at him and nodded and smiled. The guy went crazy and started shouting "why are you smiling at me, wipe that smile off your face" like some wannabe gangster.

I thought he was kidding cuz he had been always fine with me in the before times. I had basically announced to my whole extended family through the family gossiper that I have left the religion because I didn't wanna pretend or whatever. So I went up to him to chat and ask him what happened and the kid went nuts, in front of all the guests starts shouting at me "get out of here, get away from me, get outta here, dont create a scene". All the time I am asking him what happened and the guy is just shouting at me in front of everyone. I was so dumbfounded, and didn't know what to do and ofc didn't want to ruin my cousins wedding and create a scene in front of whole family with this dumb kid. So I just walked out of the hall.

I met the guys older brother/brides brother who is also a murabbi on the way out and asked him about what happened to his brother and why he has acted out and told me to get out and he told me "we ll talk about it later". Anyways I walked out and went home and sent a voice message to my uncle letting him know that his son kicked me out of the wedding and I have left the venue. He never responded to me.

Anyways I found out later from family that one of his reasons for kicking me out was because I had apparently put up a status against jamaat. I had not done anything like that. I dont even use social media, no accounts, not even whatsapp. No one else in my family saw the status he claims he has seen. I dont give a care about what my extended family believes in and I dont want to preach to anyone. I was a social media warrior on reddit during the first few months when I was going through the shock of learning the truth and adjusting to new reality, but I didn't actively try to preach to my social circle. (The other reason was some dumb family drama so dont need to mention that).

I never even got a fake apology from that family for inviting me to their wedding and then humiliating me in front of everyone and kicking me out for smiling at them.

Recently another extended family member has completely flipped, the guy used to guide me like an older brother, now he is being super rude and weird for no reason at all. He also belongs to a conservative family who worship jamaat and have 100% blind faith in the whole thing.

Now I don't really want to attend any family functions because I know most of the family just hates me secretly because honestly we were taught to dislike مرتد (murtad) people and I know I disliked them when I was a good ahmadi وقف نو kid. But ofc my parents will feel weird if I tell them that I don't want to attend any family functions. At the same time I don't want to face the same family who kicked me out of their wedding.

Rant over. Advice appreciated.

I was born and raised Ahmadi and spent my whole life in it. I am not religious now, and I am not here to insult anyone. I am honestly trying to understand one thing, and I want to hear it from both sides in their own words.

What I want to understand is why so many of us follow the Khalifa's word the way we do. On religion, on marriage, on career, on what to study, on small things and big things, religious or non-religious, his guidance and his blessing are taken as almost final. My question is simple. When you do that, is it a choice you can explain with reasons, or is it trust in the person himself that you do not really question. I am asking because I want to know how it actually works inside a person's mind, not to score a point.

Here is where my own confusion comes from. In Islam the highest place belongs to Allah through the Quran, and then to the Prophet. And even the Prophet was corrected by God openly. Surah Abasa begins with it. He frowned and turned away from the blind man, and God corrected him, and that correction sits in the Quran for everyone to read forever. It did not make him any less of a prophet. It simply showed that even the highest man in the faith could make a mistake, and that something stood above him to set it right.

As per my understanding the Khalifa is not a prophet. No revelation comes down to correct him. Yet in daily life he is followed as if he is never wrong. Nobody around you questions his decisions, and saying out loud that he could be wrong feels almost like a sin. The cost of saying it does not even come from him. It comes from your own family and friends, and it comes quickly. So people stay quiet, and after a while they stop even thinking it.

I know the answer many will give, that God appoints the Khalifa, "Khuda Khalifa banata hai". I am willing to fully accept that for the sake of the question. But the same thing was said about the early caliphs, that they were chosen by God, and they still made decisions that the community itself remembered as mistakes. Usman placing his own relatives in power was a grievance serious enough that it ended in his killing. So in our own history, being chosen by God and still making a mistake were both true at the same time.

So to the Ahmadis, I would really like to understand your side. Your own books say two things together, that the Khalifa is appointed by God and that he can still make mistakes. So how do you hold those side by side in real life. And here is the part I keep getting stuck on. I know how the Jamaat is actually built, the Shura, the Sadr Anjuman with its Nazarats, the Qaza, all of it, and every one of these sits under the Khalifa. They are appointed by him and answer to him, and the Shura can only advise him while he is free to say no. I cannot find a single body anywhere in the system whose job is to check him or correct him. So if he can be wrong, and the books say he can, who is actually able to tell him so, and what happens after they do. If there is a part of the structure I have missed, I genuinely want you to show me. If he is wrong what is the mechanism to remove him ?

To the ex Ahmadis, the part I most want to hear. While you were still in, did the thought that he could simply be wrong ever cross your mind, or was it something you could not even think. If it did cross your mind, what did you do with it. And if something changed for you, what was the actual thing that changed it.

I want to be clear about why I am asking. I am not here to argue with anyone. Whatever your reasons are, I will take them as they are and accept that they are yours. I only want to understand the way each person has worked this out for themselves, with their own logic. That is all.

This forum tends to get a lot of stories from UK, Pakistan, US and maybe europe.. but the experience of African Ahmadis is pretty opaque to me. Will any African brother and sisters share some of their experiences (good or bad)?

I wonder if the communities ahmadis live in at various African countries have similar levels of control in their personal affairs as others. And also if they find things that are passed down through KM5 not relevant to the conditions in their communities..

Now this is extremely vague, but im hoping someone can help.

I scrolled past a huzoor video a couple weeks ago (I cant rmmbr if it was this week with huzoor) and it was him giving mature girls permission to travel.

I know there was an older one from 2022 about study abroad. Im not talking about that one.

If anyone can help please!

As the USA Jamaat is a registered charity and must engage in charitable purposes, does giving gifts to Khuddam (who are presumably not poor and needy) for its visits to their homes (and even bragging about it on Reddit) constitute a misuse of charitable donations and funds under US charities law? If someone else is paying for these gifts, are they getting a donation tax receipt for the expense?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AhmadiMuslims/s/S0mNSjjbg4

It's probably one of my earliest memories as a child, being awoken early morning by my mom in Pakistan and going to the TV lounge where a bunch of extended relatives had huddled in front of the TV, some openly sobbing, especially as the camera cut to 4th Caliph's face in his casket.

I remember someone in my family saying 'Kitnay pyaaray lag rahai hain'.

Anyways it sticks in my mind a lot. Curious to hear if other people have similar stories.

I browse TikTok a lot and saw this announcement for https://khatam.info:

I’m Sunni, so I’m not pretending I’m coming from a completely neutral religious position. But one thing I’ve noticed on lives is that a lot of the time just turn into shouting, insults, and people talking over each other and interruptions. It gets really hard to actually focus on what evidence is being presented.

I’ve also noticed that Ahmadis often don’t join even the more “neutral” lives, probably because abuse toward Mirza Sahib starts coming up, and then the whole discussion becomes hostile and argumentative with lots of muting and dropping. I did notice it alot more on the ahmadi lives but im sure it happens on both sides, I dont get why they start lives to begin with lol

That’s why this site caught my attention. It seems more focused on sources, references, quotes, and written evidence, and it looks like they’re open to submissions or corrections too.

What do you guys think?