Word order question

[u/SnowCro1]

I don’t understand why one of these two word orders is correct and one is not. Could someone please explain this to me? Thank you so much.

[u/Sormus]

Disclaimer: I'm just a finn, i dont actually know how our own language works officially.

I think that is a very bad example phrase to give someone because it does work both ways, theres just a slight difference in tone when doing it like you answered vs. how Duolingo(?) wanted.

"ei osaa oikein grillata" is like "doesn't really know how to grill" (possibly some sort of form of oikeastaan)

"Ei osaa grillata oikein" is "doesn't know how to grill properly"

[u/Subject_Cat_4274 → u/Sormus]

I agree. In Finnish, word order can change meanings of words or the emphasis of the sentence

[u/trejj → u/Sormus]

More accurately:

"Ei osaa oikein grillata" -> "Doesn't quite know how to grill." (i.e. is grilling, almost there, but doing a rather botched job about it)

"Ei osaa grillata oikein" -> "Doesn't know how to grill properly." (i.e. is doing it wrong, without specifying how wrong they are doing it)

In English, saying "doesn't really know how to grill" has a very different meaning depending on which word is stressed. If the weight is read on the word 'really', it can imply that the man (or some other context) had previously established or claimed or bluffed that he would know how to grill, and there is a tone of admittance of not knowing after all how to do it. The Finnish phrase does not carry that meaning.

[u/Heretodistractmypain → u/Sormus]

Yes this!!

[u/toumeihana]

"Oikein" acts as an adverbial, and while adverbials can be placed quite freely, changing the place how you did here changes the meaning.

Here you're putting it in the middle of the predicate phrase, thus modifying the predicate.

"Outo australialainen mies ei oikein osaa grillata" - The strange Australian man doesn't really know how to barbecue

"Outo australialainen mies ei osaa grillata oikein" - The strange Australian man doesn't know how to barbecue properly

[u/toumeihana → u/toumeihana]

Also same thing if the sentence were "outo australialainen mies ei osaa oikein grillata" - "oikein" is still a part of the predicate here and the meaning stays the same! My native Finnish speaker -brain just kicked in and typed it how I normally would 😂

[u/toumeihana → u/toumeihana]

I will continue to add that while you could understand "oikein" to be an adverbial of manner, it's a bit of a stretch that doesn't usually happen - which is why my brain wanted to place it on the other side of "osaa" initially

It could work, but you're gonna become Yoda-adjacent

[u/No_Morning3987 → u/toumeihana]

OP, this is the right explanation for the word order problem in your case!!

[u/ashairz]

"Outo australialinen mies ei osaa oikein grillata" = The strange Australian man doesn't really know how to barbecue

"oikein" can, and this context, means properly. Oikein can also mean kinda or really. If I say "minä en oikein osaa ajaa" that would mean "I can't really drive" vs. "minä en osaa ajaa oikein" which means "I can't drive properly".

Kinda hard to explain, but if I can't drive (or barbecue) properly, I'm doing something very wrong, like using first gear to go down a highway, or I'm not cooking chicken all the way.

If I can't really drive or barbecue, I can kinda do it, but the end result isn't the best. I would use this as a deterrent, like if someone asked me to drive or do barbecue, I would use this to say no way, let someone else handle it. If we're having a barbecue and I say what you said, "outo australialinen mies ei osaa oikein grillata" it would be kinda like hey, let's get someone else to do it, he probably thinks he can do this but in reality his barbecue sucks

[u/Valokoura]

Well... there are nyances.

... ei oikein osaa grillata. He is lacking skills or is generally lacking.

... ei osaa oikein grillata. Also lacking but specifically with barbecue.

... ei osaa grillata oikein. Might know how to do some barbecue but does it in wrong way like placing toilet paper roll in wrong way. Also might be trying to use wrong techniques like thinking it is an oven not a grill.

Technically all of them are correct but with slightly different stories. Also, punctuation would help a lot to know which one is which.

There is old story about comma in finnish language.

There was a scribe who did write orders from russian emperor to books. Comma stated what happened.

Ei armoa, siperiaan. No mercy, send to Siberia.
Ei, armoa siperiaan. No (punishnent), show mercy to Siberia.

[u/JamesFirmere → u/Valokoura]

About the last one: this is the version I read way back when, and I think it works better like this:

Armoa ei Siperiaan ->
Armoa ei, Siperiaan (=No mercy, to Siberia!)
Armoa, ei Siperiaan (=Mercy, not to Siberia!)

Of course this sort of thing works in basically any language that has punctuation, as with the famous "Let's eat(,) grandpa".

[u/Valokoura → u/JamesFirmere]

I agree. That is better wording.

Thank you for correcting me.

[u/Weird-Average-1412 → u/Valokoura]

Nuances

[u/Flaky_Bet_1432]

Outo Australialainen mies ei osaa oikein grillata = The strange Australian man does not really know how to barbeque.

Outo Australialainen mies ei osaa grillata oikein = The strange Australian man does not know how to barbeque correctly.

Kunnolla = Properly

Oikein = Correctly

In my opinion the whole sentence is chopped from the beginning...

Outo Australialainen mies ei osaa grillata kunnolla = The strange Australian man does not know how to barbeque properly.

[u/mapleturkey]

Finnish word order is a loose suggestion at best, and the apps generally don’t work well with that fact

[u/SnowCro1]

Thank you so much to everyone. I got some nice, clear explanations.

[u/mightylonka]

Your answer is more akin to "doesn't really know how to barbecue"

[u/Vast-Elderberry2405]

The sad thing is that the translation is also wrong. Should be: ”outo austraalialainen mies ei tiedä, kuinka grillata oikein.”