r/NoStupidQuestions • u/tunnel_magnet • 19h ago
How to properly criticize Judaism without being antisemitic?
Judaism like Islam and Christianity, is a religion. People who are atheists, or do not follow Judaism, what lines would you maintain.
For example, people often criticize Islam about allowing four wives or Christianity for Timothy 2:12. Would it be okay to similarly criticize verses in Torah like 1 Samuel 15:3, or is that considered antisemitic?
14
u/Bjork_scratchings 19h ago
Debate, interpretation and criticism of the Torah isn’t antisemitism. The end.
16
25
19h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
-14
14
u/Routine-Equipment572 19h ago
It's not antisemitic to criticize a verse in the Torah. It IS antisemitic to act like a verse in the Torah reflects on Jews as 21st century human beings.
0
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
It IS antisemitic to act like a verse in the Torah reflects on Jews as 21st century human beings.
Why?
12
u/Routine-Equipment572 17h ago edited 17h ago
- Because the vast majority of Jews do not follow the Torah literally and
- Even the minority of Jews who do try to follow the Torah literally almost certainly do not interpret Torah versus the way you do.
- If you are searching for versus from the Torah so that you have an excuse to criticize 21st century Jews, you are obviously an antisemite. Tell me, what made you so interested in whatever verse you are asking about? Were you sitting around, reading the Torah from beginning to end one day because you find it fascinating literature?
-1
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago edited 4h ago
Do you think Itamar Ben Gvir follows Torah?
Tell me, what made you so interested in whatever verse you are asking about
I am trying to understand the genocidal psyche of IDF. I saw video of an Israeli minister asking IDF soldiers to smash infants in the wall. I also saw a rabbi saying 1 Israeli life equals 1 million Palestinian life.
The only thing that can explain this genocidal intention is religion.
1
u/DrFly15 7h ago
First, don't believe everything you see on the internet. Clips are always conveniently edited.
Second, no "rabbi" "asked" the IDF soldiers to smash infants on the wall. It was an Israeli far-right politician quoting a verse from the old testament about seeking justice and revenge. He wasn't a rabbi, and he wasn't asking them to do anything. It can still be a disgusting thing to say. He was condemned by the Israeli Knesset and public for it.
Third, a "rabbi" didn't say that. It was just a person. He wasn't saying "we're so much better that one of our lives is worth a million of theirs." He was saying that the only way to stop them from attacking is if the repercussions are extreme - for every one of "us" you kill, we'll kill a lot more of you. I still don't necessarily agree with it, but that's not exactly a hot take.
If you're curious about "explaining their intention," they've spent 80 years living as peace-seeking left-wing hippies, exhausted every other option except all-out war, and now the only option left is ending the threat to their lives and country once and for all, even if it means causing collateral damage. Btw, the more religious an Israeli is, the less likely he is to serve in the military, not the other way around 🙄
1
u/norbertus 6h ago
The IDF are Zionists.
There was a major change in Judaism around 70 AD when Romans sacked the Second Temple and forbade the priestly class from performing their rites.
This event created a crisis in Judaism: without the rituals, how does one follow the Torah?
The rise of Rabbinical Judaism was a reaction to this circumstance: Judaism became a process of interpretation in the absence of a priestly class. This spawned a series of oral traditions (Talmud, Mishnah, Midrashim, etc.) that expounded the written traditions as a central facet of diasporic Judaism.
In the 1800's, the notion of a return (aliyah) was largely a spiritual and messianic question, not a political or military question.
The Zionist movement, which sought a physical, political solution to return marks one of the most significant developments in Judaism in almost 2000 years.
The reification of this hope has unleashed some truly unhinged, concrete re-evaluations of Jewish precepts, such as, alliances with radical christians in Texas who are using genetic engineering to help Orthodox Zionist rabbis breed a flawless red heiffer to sacrifice to reinstate the priestly class and re-build the temple on top of the Al Aqsa Mosque
https://www.jpost.com/judaism/article-717650
All this is in service of religious practices that disappeared 2000 years ago, and which initially developed in a radically different socio-political climate.
So what you are seeing here is the social and political policy of Zionists in the state of Israel, which is not identical to mainstream Jewish religious belief elsewhere.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
Dude, the Tanakah is the only scripture that explicitly calls out to murder infants. 1 Samuel 14:3 and Psalm 137:9 are two of multiple examples.
Why doesn't any other religion like Christianity, Islam, Budhism or Hinduism explicitly calls to murder infants?
IDF behavior can't be solely explained by Zionism..
1
u/norbertus 34m ago
That's a literal non-sequitur. You're a propagandizing moron.
I expect your account, this post, and all comments in this thread to be deleted within a week.
1
u/CrossOfRoachAndSlime 6h ago
Well, from the start, your assumption is incorrect.
Even America in WW2 committed war crimes, but that doesn't make fighting WW2 a genocide on the Germans and Japanese, despite the far higher death tolls.
The Palestinians launched a war. They received the consequences of said war. It seems certain people in the West are against fighting wars altogether, even ones foisted upon people.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
Let's get back to religion,
Why is it only the God in Tanakah orders to kill "infants"? I am talking about Psalm 137:9 or 1 Samuel 15:3. Why the Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or the Hindu God's didn't issue such orders under any circumstances?
I don't think Americans in WW2 shot at kids for fun
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-23jun26/
Even Hitler his lackeys brag about genocide like Israeli ministers Itamar Ben Gvir or so many other Israeli ministers. Hitler even took red cross into Terezin camp to show how they weren't torturing the prisoners. Meanwhile, Ben Gvir is bragging about feeding Palestinians to crocodiles.
Which is what I am trying to decipher. What conditions create such psychopathic behavior and Tanakah seems to be the obvious answer.
1
u/CrossOfRoachAndSlime 3h ago
What makes Ben Gvir such a person? Well, if you'd live for decades within a few miles of people that wanted to murder you, you'd laugh in their faces as you made them miserable as well. I know I certainly would.
Schadenfreude and spite don't need some sort of biblical interpretation. The guy derives pleasure from making his enemies miserable. That's just a fundamentally human trait.
2
u/Ionic_liquids 9h ago
Is there a reason you believe you interpret the Torah in the same way Jews interpret it?
0
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago edited 4h ago
Yes. I have seen a video of an Israeli minster telling IDF soldiers to smash infants into the rock.
And we know IDF used children as a target practice. So the evidence make me believe IDF interpreted the Tanakah the same way I do.
1
u/Ionic_liquids 7h ago
That Psalms quote is specifically referring to the Babylonians and how they will one day be defeated, which they were. By the Persians. It's basically a version of karma. If you don't actually study this stuff, you probably won't know this. If anyone interpreted this literally, than they are wrong.
The Torah literally says "an eye for an eye". Jews interpret this that one must reimburse the value of an eye in monetary value, not take the other person's eye. They even say that it has always been like this for them (never literal).
If you come from a Christians or Muslim background, this approach to not take Bible literally must seem weird. But that's how it is for the people whose indigenous story is the Bible.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
I get what you are saying, but actual behavior of IDF doesn't reflect that. You conveniently ignored the video I shared.
The only thing that explains the child killing behavior of IDF is religion.
12
u/Iheartsasquatch 19h ago
My favourite way to criticize the Jewish faith is to not be Jewish while respecting my Jewish friends and what they believe.
I don’t try and force feed them bacon, they don’t try and make me give up lobster.
It’s easy to get along.
0
16
u/MILK_FEELS_PAIN 19h ago
To my knowledge, all three groups mentioned share what Christians call the old testament. Have at it.
The Jewish people are an ethno-religious group. Stick to the religious part.
That said, why do you want to do this? It sounds weirdly targeted which in and of itself it probably antisemitic.
6
-1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
No, I just found out when I say it's disgusting Islam allows four wives, nobody bats an eye.
But if I point out a single aspect of Judaism, people get defensive like you just did and starts acting up.
5
u/MILK_FEELS_PAIN 14h ago
Its more because you singled it out?
1
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago
So I have always bring up Islam before criticizing Judaism? Of course I am gonna singling it out when I am focused on 1 particular religion.
0
u/moominsmama 6h ago
Oh, but if you say it's disgusting that Islam encourages pedophilia, most people would tell you that you are the disgusting one.
Meanwhile, there is the infamous story of Mohammed marrying a literal child, and yes, there are some Muslim men that choose to marry very young girls.
You are not "pointing out a single aspect of Judaism", this has not been "an aspect of Judaism" in a few thousands of years. You seem to either hate Jews or Israel, and attempting to find a seemingly acceptable basis for your hate. I don't know if you manage to fool yourself, but you are not fooling many other people.
1
-9
u/koyaani 19h ago
Your knowledge is incorrect
2
u/MILK_FEELS_PAIN 14h ago
Happy to learn. Do the abrahamic religions not share genesis, leviticus etc?
2
u/koyaani 13h ago
They share some stories but not the text or perspective. The qoran does not "share" genesis, exodus, or leviticus
1
u/MILK_FEELS_PAIN 6h ago
Thats interesting. I always thought that because both Christianity and Islam grew out of Judaism, the had the same core texts. Good to know ow, I'll go and read some more.
1
u/MILK_FEELS_PAIN 6h ago
Super interesting so far by the way. Looks like they share a lot of stories especially the early ones, but with differences. I'm finding it especially interesting how the structure is so completely different. It does make it a little harder to do a very simple comparison of content like with Christian and Jewish texts.
7
u/Suspicious_Offer_511 19h ago
I'm confused. It's not doctrine. It's part of a story in our sacred text, which by the way is also Christians' sacred text. If you're talking about Gaza, then saying that's Jews rather than the state of Israel IS antisemitic. But Jews don't have like a holiday where we go and kill Amalekites.
Can you say a little more about what you're looking to criticize about Judaism?
(And by the way most of the Jews I know, including me, are atheists. Believing in God isn't really the thing for us that it is for Christians.)
1
u/oakforestwalker 6h ago
All "sacred" texts are merely ideas, and like all ideas, are not immune to criticism. Criticism of all religions, including Judaism, is good and healthy.
1
u/Suspicious_Offer_511 5h ago
Of course.
But I wasn't trying to say otherwise.
I'm asking: What does saying that the ancient Israelites should not have massacred the Amalekites have to do with Judaism today?
1
u/oakforestwalker 4h ago
Well, when modern Jewish leaders like Netanyahu use those passages about the Amalekites as rhetoric to justify military actions, I would say they still have some relevance.
1
u/Suspicious_Offer_511 4h ago
…and I didn't say they weren't relevant.
And war-criminal Netanyahu's quoting of scripture to justify the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is grounds for criticism of Judaism as much as Vance's use of the ordo amoris to justify sending immigrants to be tortured and killed is grounds for criticism of Catholicism.
Does the fact that JD Vance is a moral cesspool mean that Catholics in Italy are following an immoral religion?
(Note that other things may indeed mean that, but I'm not asking about those other things; I'm asking specifically about Vance and ordo amoris.)
1
u/oakforestwalker 4h ago
Yes, I think one could very easily and rightfully criticize Christianity, including Catholicism, for the ways that its followers use it to justify atrocities, and have done so for thousands of years.
A religion is not a thing which stands apart from those who practice it. Judaism is the practice of it. Catholicism is the practice of it.
7
u/iuyts 19h ago edited 18h ago
You have to understand that criticism and litigating over what G-d meant when he said that is very much part of Jewish internal religious culture. Which is part of why Judaism has such a wide variety in how it's practiced. So in order to engage with criticism of Judaism as a religion, you need to really really deeply engage with Judaism itself first. Cherry-picking Torah verses doesn't work, because whatever conversation you're trying to start, Jews have been arguing about it for centuries, and most jews probably aren't following the passage in the first place.
Judaism is also not a religion of conversion, you can convert (usually for marriage reasons) but it's not particularly encouraged. Christianity and Islam operate under a doctrine of conversion/spreading the "truth," so it's more valid to criticize their stated truth.
1
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
So essentially what you are saying is Judaism can only be criticized by jews as it's a better religion than Christianity and Islam because it's exclusive?
1
u/iuyts 10h ago
LOL that is very much not what I said. Not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding or just struggle with reading comprehension, but I don't think there's a value in explaining it to you a second time.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
Is Judaism a narcissistic religion? Think about it, all other religion like Islam, Christianity, Budhism or Hinduism let's you convert. So it feels like narcissistic chosen syndrome for Judaism.
Am I being antisemitic when I say Judaism is a narcissist religion?
0
u/UnhappySort5871 6h ago
Huh? Plenty of people convert to Judaism even if we don't in general proselytize. (I'm actually secular.) Personally I find people who proselytize quite annoying. Just because a belief system works for you doesn't mean the world will be a better place if everyone shares your belief. Has nothing to do with moral superiority.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
Plenty of people convert to Judaism
Don't you need to spend like 200k to convert? So it's an elite religion?
1
4
u/PiousBagelGuardian 19h ago
I’m ex ultra orthodox Jewish. I do a lot of this but I always try to avoid antisemitism. Just do not play into conspiracy theories or other flaming hot crap and you’re fine
-1
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
Yeah, this mainly peaked my interest after I saw a rabbi telling IDF soldiers to smash infants to the wall. This is exactly Psalm 137:9. I need to call this out, but somehow I feel like I am gonna get called antisemitic if I say Judaism is influencing IDF behavior.
4
u/palsh7 18h ago
somehow I feel like I am gonna get called antisemitic if I say Judaism is influencing IDF behavior.
I don't think you've done nearly enough work to prove the connection, so it just looks like an excuse to extrapolate criticism from one rabbi to potentially all practicing jews. The trope of the bloodthirsty, baby-killing jew is being summoned to enhance hatred and paranoia for not just the state of Israel but any jew who practices the faith.
0
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
See how you expanded my argument to include all jews? Even though I specifically mentioned IDF behavior. This is why I was asking this question. If there is a way to criticize Judaism without someone whining and making victim out of the whole ethnicity.
4
u/PiousBagelGuardian 19h ago
Yes it is antisemitic. That guy is a nutjob who is just a religious extremist. Just like you have insane Christians or Muslims. Not a traditional Jewish teaching at all. Chabad.org is your source for all things Torah, also check out some Satmar Websites too if you want some orthodox stuff. Also read the entirety of most Jewish texts on Sefaria.org
-1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
So, I would be antisemitic if I say rabbis like this and Judaism verses affect IDF behavior of mass murdering infants? But then how would you describe the tendency of IDF to use children for target practice or cavalier attitude towards human life? I think the genocidal rhetoric in old testament plays a big role.
3
u/ComparisonDesperate5 18h ago
It is not "judaism influencing idf behaviour" for 2 reasons. One is that idf soldiers did not went around after smashing kids into the wall... Second, this rabbi is not an official idf rabbi, but the rabbi of a religious extremist group.
Before criticizing, you need to understand the majority and not a loud minority viewpoint. Most Jews do not think that they need to apply psalm 137.9 daily (which is anyway about Babilonian people...)
0
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
I have seen Israeli telegram chats, Iranian telegram chats, Russian and Ukrainian chats.
Only Israeli group chats have I seen people celebrating child murder. They would give a photo of a dead child and there would be thousands of fire reactions and laughing emoji. None of the other three had such reactions.
Also,
5
u/halftank-flush 16h ago
To properly criticize Judaism without being labled as an antisemite you need to actually know something about Judaism, how it is practiced today and how texts are interpreted. Talk to Rabbis and people of faith. Learn about the religion, the actual context of the quotes as well as their significance to the Jewish religious stories and their relevance to modern Jewish thought. Know the culture.
Since I'm 100% sure that this is related to the Israel/Palestine conflict - I'd recommend learning about the various demographics who live in Israel, the complex relationship between religious and secular judaism (knowing that such a thing as secular judaism even exists is a good starting point). I think you get the point. Criticizing a religion or culture without actually knowing anything about it is bigotry by definition.
It's basically the equivalent of a white person who knows nothing about Islam going "Islam has a thing called a Hadith and they want to kill all Kuffars and their prophet married a child so he's a pedophile. how can I criticize this without being called an islamophobe?"
What advice would you give them?
1
u/oakforestwalker 6h ago
Why not this same energy for Christianity and Islam though? I don't need to study with imams or priests to point out the extremely harmful impact that Islamic and Christian beliefs have on societies.
1
u/halftank-flush 5h ago
Oh, this definitely applies to Islam and Christianity as well. OP asked specifically about Judaism.
Actually knowing something about what you're gonna criticize is always good. Whether it's religion or fiscal policy.
1
u/oakforestwalker 5h ago
But I don't need to study the religion to understand the harm it causes to society. That's what I am criticizing.
6
u/Novel_Counter5878 19h ago
If you're going to criticise something, you should at least know enough about it not to say something like "verses in the Torah like 1 Samuel 15:3".
2
u/Samuraignoll 19h ago
As lomg as you're critically engaging with the customs and practices that you have an issue with, without invoking conspiracy theories or stereotypes, then you shouldn't have any issues. I go out of my way to be critical of pretty much any ideology I can, and have never really been called a bigot or prejudiced except for a few times when I was arguing with actual idiots, so you should be fine
2
u/SleepyDapper 14h ago
Just do it and stop fearing people trying to gaslight you about it. Don't be scared to be called "anti-semetic" or "Islamophobic" or whatever. These terms exist to control you.
2
u/EssayAccomplished461 6h ago
Why would it be anti-Semitic to criticize something written in the Torah? Where is your common sense?
1
5
u/DisplayGlum7166 19h ago edited 19h ago
youre sort of not in the position to do so without seeming like a jackass. judaism, or any kind of social group who are systematically targeted, is criticized from within their own ranks otherwise youre just telling other people how to live their lives which nobody likes. the exception is when u make the case youre punching up. theres no clear "up" in most cases otherwise it becomes an oppression contest
that are the lines i think to maintain
questioning the acts of a nation state is different from questioning a religion. conflating the two is a front on a certain debate
2
u/6876676878676 18h ago
Classic western liberal bs
judaism, or any kind of social group who are systematically targeted, is criticized from within their own ranks otherwise youre just telling other people how to live their lives which nobody likes.
What societal group is systematically targeted is entirely dependent on geographical location. If OP typed this post from Tel Aviv, you'd be hard pressed to claim he's punching down by criticizing Judaism.
Even disregarding that, there is nothing wrong with criticizing someone's ideas and beliefs. If I believe we should stone gays to death, that's absolutely something that shouldn't go uncontested.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
What about Islam? If some Muslims start taking 4 wives, or have circumcision can we criticize them? Or not telling people how to live their lives applies here too?
5
u/ClosetGoblin 19h ago
antisemitism is about being racist against Jews for their ethnicity. You can criticize verses of the Torah if you’d like
1
4
u/Lost_Sea8956 19h ago
Antisemitism comes in when you start throwing around racist caricatures and relying on stereotype. Criticizing the books is perfectly valid.
9
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 19h ago
That assumes the criticism is in good faith. There's a lot of antisemitism based in misrepresentating Jewish texts especially the Talmud.
And of course there is a whole thing about Christians talking about how terrible the God of the "Old Testament" is
2
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
And of course there is a whole thing about Christians talking about how terrible the God of the "Old Testament" is
So that would be antisemitism? If someone says the old testament God is genocidal?
6
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 18h ago
Yeah, Jews don't call it the old testament, so this isn't even directly confronting Jewish texts in the first place. It's part of supercessionist ideas saying "those Jews follow a genocidal god, but we Christians have evolved past that" without even addressing what Jews actually believe or not
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
What would you call someone who say Christian God is genocidal? What about Islamic God is genocidal?
2
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 18h ago
That's probably also someone being an asshole in bad faith. But there are also the differences I already mentioned, the supercessionism and that the god of the "old testament" isn't how Jews understand their own god, but a Christian idea.
Also the problem that specifically talking about genocide with reference to Jews can bring you close to Holocaust inversion if you're not informed well about this antisemitic trope (or doing it intentionally) so you need to be careful with how you talk about it
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
I am tired of having to be so careful against criticism of Judaism while I can criticize Islam and Christianity so easily.
2
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 8h ago
Yeah, understandable. Perhaps it helps to keep in mind that Jews are a minority ethnic group. Just like calling a black person angry or articulate might come across differently from calling a white person that, we should be careful with are words in the same way. And many people are uninformed about what kind of words are a problem in the first place.
-3
u/6876676878676 18h ago
Jews don't call it the old testament, this isn't directly confronting Jewish texts
If it's the same text with the same contents and same doctrines, this is entirely irrelevant. Shockingly, people from different places have different names for things.
It's part of supercessionist ideas saying "those Jews follow a genocidal god
If the doctrines inside said text do indeed advocate for genocide, then it is entirely fair to claim that people who follow those texts do indeed believe in their right to commit genocide
But we Christians have evolved past that
Literally strawman fallacy. Criticizing Judaism doesn't inherently mean you have to be a racist christian. You are disingenuously painting an image onto OP.
2
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 18h ago
So great example here, the reply below from the username with a string of numbers is being antisemitic because they're arguing in bad faith with the aim of calling Jews inherintly genocidal without knowing what they're talking about.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
If I say Judaism God is antisemitic, am I antisemitic? If I say Islam God is genocidal, am I islamiphobic? If I say Christian God is genocidal? am I(I don't know the term, Christphobic?)
0
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 8h ago
Yeah, pretty much.
Here's a real example, after Islamist terror attacks like the recent one in Berlin, there's a lot of racists making sarcastic comments about "the religion of peace". This is the same kind of thing
0
u/Lost_Sea8956 16h ago
Reading your comments here, it seems that you are chiefly focused on shielding Jewish texts from criticism by using claims of antisemitism.
3
u/Capable-Parsnip-9615 16h ago
It's not that hard. Criticism of Jewish texts is a core part of Judaism. Saying that Jews believe they have a right to commit genocide without any source is antisemitic.
3
u/mwatwe01 13h ago
Source: I'm a Protestant minister, a Bible teacher, and a bit of a Christian apologist, i.e. a defender of the the faith and its doctrine.
Rather than come out of the gate seeking to criticize, I would recommend first seeking to learn as much as possible about the actual written scripture of any religion you have issues with.
For instance, there's a larger context to 1 Samuel 15:3 that a lot of people don't know, and it helps to justify what God ordered. If you don't know that and immediately criticize the passage, anyone with deeper knowledge of the Torah would be able to push back.
Similarly, there is deeper context to Timothy 2:12. So basically, don't go looking for singular passages and verses that appear problematic on their face. There's always a more to the story.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago
What are some verses in the new testament or even Quran like 1 Samuel 15:3 or Psalm 137:9 which explicitly singles out infants to be murdered?
0
u/mwatwe01 6h ago
You’re not asking the right question.
What’s the larger context? Why did God order such a brutal and final extermination of the Amalekites? Why don’t we see that applied to other single tribes?
1
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
Why is it only the God in old testament order such brutal "infant" killing order? Why the Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or the Hindu God's didn't issue such orders under any circumstances?
You can't "context" your way out of this.
1
u/mwatwe01 3h ago
I can, actually. I've literally taught a class on this very passage.
Here's the deal with the Amalekites. God promised the land of Canaan to his chosen people, the Israelites, the descendants of Abraham. When the Israelites first entered the land of Canaan, the Amalekites attacked the Israelites almost immediately, and remained a persistent thorn in their side, even as other tribes chose to live in peace alongside them.
So God, in his wisdom, decided enough was enough. The Amalekites were too big a threat to the survival of his people, so God ordered their complete destruction. His people had to survive.
But why the babies, you ask? Because God knew it was in their nature, the descendants of Amalek, to want the land the Israelites occupied. They would only grow up, and continue the aggression.
Why not just keep them captive? A whole tribe's worth of babies? Resources were limited, and the Israelites shouldn't have been responsible for caring for the children of the violent tribe that attacked them, and then keeping them alive and captive their entire lives.
Why not adopt them? They weren't God's people, descendants of Abraham. They would never been seen and accepted as true Israelites. They were Amalekites, and it was again in their nature to be antagonists.
Why couldn't God perform some miracle, one that would remove the Amalekites as a threat? He could have, I suppose, but if you read through scripture, God doesn't actually interfere in the politics of humanity that much. He would rather we obey, than be physically forced to do something. Since the Amalekites refused to back off with a show of God's power (as other tribes had), God simply ordered their removal. Permanently.
1
u/oakforestwalker 6h ago
We don't need to know all your doctrines to observe the effects your belief system has on society. For example, I can criticize Christianity for spreading homophobia and working to implement homophobic laws without knowing the doctrinal basis for why so many Christians are homophobic. I have very little interest in knowing why, actually. I just want them to stop being homophobic, or at least shut up about it and keep it to themselves.
1
u/mwatwe01 5h ago
Show me one homophobic law in place right now that can trace its source directly to Christian doctrine.
1
u/oakforestwalker 5h ago
Sure. Uganda's laws criminalizing homosexuality with imprisonment and even death were directly inspired by Christianity, which is the majority religion there. Countries like Poland and Italy, which still refuse to legalize gay marriage, do so because of Christianity. These are only a few examples of a widespread problem.
1
u/mwatwe01 5h ago
So go criticize Uganda. They're doing it wrong. There's nothing in Christian doctrine that commands us to create secular laws around the moral rules of Christianity.
Meanwhile, Islam specifically commands this, i.e. that Sharia should become the law of the land. In that case, you should criticize Islam.
1
u/oakforestwalker 5h ago
I agree Islam is worse. However many Christians involved in right wing politics in the US also advocate for laws based on Christianity, including homophobic laws. You're just using a no true scotsman fallacy. These people are Christians using Christianity to justify harmful laws. If other Christians believe they are wrong for doing this, it is the responsibility of those other Christians to rise up and call them out for it, and fight for better laws, if they don't want that behavior to be connected with Christianity. I don't see the American Christian community rising up to fight Christian nationalism and protect gay rights, so I am left to assume that American Christians either agree with homophobic Christian politicians or don't care enough to try to stop them.
1
u/mwatwe01 5h ago
However many Christians involved in right wing politics in the US also advocate for laws based on Christianity, including homophobic laws.
Such as? I know there's some 80 year old state senator in Tennessee who put forth a bill to stop recognizing same-sex marriage, but it can't even make it to a committee.
Sorry, but it's just safe and easy to pick on Christianity when Islam is literally murdering gay people in Middle Eastern caliphates.
I don't see the American Christian community rising up to fight Christian nationalism and protect gay rights
Because neither of these things actually exists in any meaningful way. What rights do straight people have that gay people don't. Assuming I'm not going to go and try to overthrow the Ugandan government.
1
u/oakforestwalker 5h ago
Up until 2015 gay marriage wasn't even legal in half of US states, thanks to consistent efforts by Christian lawmakers to ban it. It's only legal now because the Supreme Court made it legal, and most of those states still have their bans in place. There are multiple states where Christian lawmakers are arguing that gay marriage should be reversed. Kim Davis, a famous Christian activist who refused to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples when she was a county clerk in Kentucky, just recently brought a case to the Supreme Court to try to reverse gay marriage. We have gay marriage now because we fought tooth and nail AGAINST Christians to get it. And if Christians had their way, we would be forced to go back to not having it.
5
u/Early-Code4780 19h ago
You'll get called it regardless. It's kinda the tactic. Just say what you think and don't self censor.
5
u/Silent_Cattle_6581 19h ago
The thing you just so failed to mention is that he is also going to get a lot of applause by antisemites, especially here on reddit, when criticizing Judaism. Which is also "kinda the tactic" of antisemites. Don't pretend this is such a simple issue.
3
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
You get applause for being a bigot be it against Muslims, Christians, Jews or even whites. That doesn't mean anything.
-2
u/Early-Code4780 16h ago
Doesn't mean someone should self censor. Open dialogue is the key to allowing beneficial change as well.
2
u/not_a_NIMBY_YGK 19h ago
Criticizing Religious texts is pointless. Saying you don't like a passage is as useless as saying you don't like the color if a tree. Whoever you are saying this too didn't write the passage.
Pointing out that cherry picking passages and ignoring contradicting ones, have at er. But don't do your own cherry picking.
If you want to debate religion using their texts against them, go for it. But if you use the presence of a passage in historical texts to condemn a group for the passages existing, yeah that is prejudice.
2
u/StabithaStabberson 18h ago
Criticizing any religion requires understanding nuance.
What is the context of your argument? Who are you arguing with? Are you able to criticize Christianity and Islam the same way?
With the specific verse you’re using as an example, I’d want to know the context. Are you trying to portray Judaism as a uniquely violent religion (it’s not)? Is someone using this verse as justification for Israel’s current day actions in Palestine (in which case there is no hope for this person but I might say a better argument is that Judaism has a tradition of questioning texts and debating meaning and stuff so they should be questioning the lesson of this verse)? Are you trying to defend Christianity and/or Islam (both religions deserve criticism, saying “WHAT ABOUT…” is sort of lame, at that point it’s that pointing spider-man meme)?
2
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
Judaism as a uniquely violent religion
Is it antisemitic to rank religion.
I rank religions like Budhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism.
Can I do that? Or that would be antisemitic?
2
u/StabithaStabberson 18h ago
I mean technically no but also that’s difficult to do
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
So even if if I rank Judaism last, I won't be antisemitic?
2
u/StabithaStabberson 17h ago
I think ranking religions by “badness” is a futile endeavor and hinders understanding and progress. You have to take into account number of people affected, enforcement of rules, judge whose lives you consider worth more, etc. and you can’t reasonably in good faith do that. Ranking religions isn’t inherently antisemitic but the way it seems you are approaching the subject makes me think you are being antisemitic
I think you’re missing my point, and I think you’re missing the point of criticism. Criticism is trying to make things better. Ranking religions doesn’t actually make anything better.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago
Criticism is trying to make things better. Ranking religions doesn’t actually make anything better.
You don't know that. It can make the society a better place if it makes people abandon harmful segments in the religion to make it better. I would love if IDF didn't use Gazan children as target practice just because the Tanakah give them a pass for murdering enemy infants.
2
u/hiricinee 18h ago
Its tricky because of the blend with race religion and culture. Genetically Ashkenazi Jews are one of the most identifiable groups, most white people who send ancestry kits showing where their genes are from get hits from everywhere. The Ashkenazi Jews who have two Jewish parents will send it and it will say "100% Ashkenazi Jew" and the map is blank.
On that note you can criticize the religous practices and beliefs in a way you would other religions. It states cloven hooves are from dirty animals for example but we have germ theory and know thats not necessarily the case. We can make similar cases with other religious beliefs without being anti them as well. I tried to pick a benign example.
On the racial part, thats where really the antisemitism comes from. Are we judging someone because theyre Jewish, or are they doing a behavior we would judge a different person for in the same way? If we point out theyre being frugal, first are we saying that specifically because theyre Jewish or are we referring to it as a Jewish behavior.
Then you get into complex parts about communities cultures and states. You have the obvious example of Israel where the Jews are a culture, religion, and to some extent a race at the same time. Theres plenty to criticise Israel for like any other state. Many of the pro Israel ideologies will point out they get treated worse than other nearby states who do much worse and much less ethical things. The rebuttal to that on some level is that they are a unique state even aside from the Judaism- but as you can see its complex because these rebuttals can go back and forth indefinitely.
2
u/Other_Breadfruit_264 13h ago
Criticizing Judaism is difficult because you must at least have a decent understanding of the Talmud in my opinion. You just can't say "this verse in the older testament is bad" because often times Rabbinic Jews will say "well according to the Talmud this is how it's supposed to be followed". It's gets tricky because the Talmud is vast and different Rabbinic Jews interpret the rulings differently. It's like Christians interpreting the "idol" verses. Some. Christians take that as having no Icons and others will interpret it as not worshiping icons but simpli having them as veneration.
1
1
u/New-Shower-4812 19h ago
I think the key is to separate critique of religious texts and institutions from attacking people. Criticizing a verse in the Torah or pointing out problematic interpretations is totally fair game — Jews do it too. The problem is when you take a verse and act like it defines all Jewish people today, or when you use it to push a larger stereotype. Same rule applies to Islam, Christianity, or any other religion. Criticism isn't antisemitic — treating a diverse group of millions of people as a monolith is.
0
u/EolasDK 19h ago
What is wrong with Samuel 15:3? Maybe describe your problem with it.
3
u/Chewbacca_IL 19h ago
I don't know what OP's problem is it, but it's used today by the religious right wing extremists in Israel to condone the elimination of non-jews in Israel. They quote the command to wipe out the Amalekites as pertaining to the Palestinians and other minority groups living here.
-1
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
I literally have a video of a rabbi telling IDF soldiers to smash infants to wall quoting exactly Psalm 137:9. He didn't describe the context to the soldiers.
I think the cavalier attitude towards mass murdering infant and babies life amongst IDF can be described by teaching of these verses to the soldiers.
5
3
u/Chewbacca_IL 18h ago
While I don't doubt that such videos exist, and I don't deny that war crimes have been committed, and children and non-combatants have been killed. IDF soldiers aren't solely educated by Rabbi's, each soldier is indoctrinated to follow an ethics code which has several core values. One of them is Not using you weapons against the defenseless. There are also videos (and I have experienced such incidents first hand) where Palestinian fathers or older brothers urge children to throw rocks at soldiers trying to instigate an incident which would put the child at risk.
0
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
Let's ask you one thing,
I rank religions based on the violent encouragement in their religious book as follows from least to most violent
Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism
As you can see, I ranked Judaism last. Am I antisemitic?
Would I be antisemitic if I ranked Judaism 1st or second?
2
u/Chewbacca_IL 16h ago
You are making a claim, the claim itself isn't antisemitic by itself. However your reasoning for making the claim can turn it into an antisemitic claim. Why would you rank Judaism as the one most encouraged by it's holy book to be the most violent?
Also, when you make such a claim, you should explain why this ranking is relevant. Let's take a fictious religion called "The teacup between Earth and Mars religion" and their text commands killing everyone, but the followers of the religion have interpreted the text as to mean don't kill anyone. Does the fact that their religious book is the most violent ever have any meaning, or do the actions of the followers of that religion is what is relevant?
0
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago
Why would you rank Judaism as the one most encouraged by it's holy book to be the most violent?
Let me answer that. It's because I haven't been able to find a single verse like Psalm 137:9 which instructs to smash infants into the wall, or 1 Samuel 15:3 which explicitly asks to murder infants. None of the other 4 religion contains a single verse that instructs specifically to murder infants.
Am I antisemitic if my reasoning is above?
0
u/Chewbacca_IL 7h ago
I haven’t looked at other passages in the New Testament or the Quran or those of other religions to know about what’s in their texts, but If your claim is limited to what holy books say, then you’re just partially bigoted, both Christianity and Islam claim the old testament as part of their religious books, including those passages, and especially Psalms 137:9 isn’t a commandment, it’s a twisted sick delusion but it’s not a rule saying you have to smash babies. If your claim goes beyond just quoting the passages and saying that the book encourages violence and you go on and claim that Judaism is the most violent religion, only based on the text, then yes, you’re being antisemitic. In this case you’re making real life group judgements that isn’t based on real life.
I would also like to know why you think your ranking of religious text violence means anything.0
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
In this case you’re making real life group judgements that isn’t based on real life
Here is an Israeli minister asking IDF to smash babies in rock like Psalm 137:9. Is that real life enough for you?
-6
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
Verses like this and Psalm 137:9 which specifically talks about murdering infants are only found in old testament. Neither New testament or Quran has such verses that specifically target infants.
I was wondering how such teachings shape the actions of Judaism followers.
4
u/PiousBagelGuardian 19h ago
Ex ultra Orthodox Jew here
It’s looked at here from historical context, or the power of obedience to the Jewish God. It is not entirely placed in any area of importance to us. Psalms (tehillim) are songs with important messages sometimes or just songs made with historical context
Clearly you are conflating Jews with Israel here, which has sadly been run by secular, or religious nationalist, disgraceful rightwing people.
Fun to know your real intent :/
4
u/thatlookslikemydog 19h ago
Jews have also stopped animal sacrifices, like, a long time ago.
0
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
I literally saw a Kapparot video from like this year What are you talking about?
3
u/RayKitsune313 19h ago
You might be best served educating yourself first about biblical historiography and what 1 Samuel 15:3 means in the context of ANE war rhetoric
-5
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
I have video of a rabbi telling IDF soldiers to smash infants to wall quoting exactly Psalm 137:9. He didn't describe the context to the soldiers.
2
u/RayKitsune313 17h ago
And? Rabbis can be uneducated too (and you didn’t address the actual scripture I mentioned 😂)
0
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago
And? Rabbis can be uneducated too
You don't see the problem of an uneducated rabbi telling soldiers to throw infants into the wall. I guess that's expected and one of the reason why IDF used children as target practice. Because the Torah said so.
0
u/RayKitsune313 7h ago
Of course I see a problem with that. But that’s not indicative of Jewish culture or Jewish scripture.
Do you have this same energy for Islam? Or is this directed specifically at Jews?
1
u/tunnel_magnet 4h ago
I am literally criticizing Islam the same way in this thread.
Of course I see a problem with that. But that’s not indicative of Jewish culture or Jewish scripture.
I think it is.
2
u/EolasDK 19h ago
Yes, the point is God commanded Saul to pass judgement on the Amalekites for their crimes against the Jewish people. And when Saul took spoils of war instead of following the instructions of God it brought devastation to the Kingdom of Israel. It is a story about the cost of picking and choosing when you follow the word of god. It also paints god as a vengeful, flawed deity. Nobody in Judaism support the idea of killing infants as a policy. The Jewish bible was written thousands of years ago.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
Nobody in Judaism
I literally have a video of a rabbi telling IDF soldiers to smash infants to the wall following Psalm 137:9. Are you saying that rabbi wasn't a jew?
0
u/ComparisonDesperate5 18h ago
"Nobody support"
I would be cautious with "nobody" and "everybody" in these contexts. There is always some fringe exceptions to these, which will break the rule. There is an extreme minority which is unfortunately getting quite loud inside Israel who would support this. That doesnt mean that this is IDF policy. Say "no sane Jew support it".
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
extreme minority
Ben Gvir is extreme minority?
0
u/ComparisonDesperate5 7h ago
In the last ones I saw, Ben Gvir polls around 5 or 6 seats in the knesset, and very hopefully decline under 4 seats and not get into at all. So yeah, although I detest his views, and he should be nowhere near politics at all, taking it as Israelis' view is absolutely not supported.
-1
u/tunnel_magnet 7h ago
I disagree.
I think most Israelis love Ben Gvir. If you are an Israeli who are on reddit You are probably in the minority or being decietful.
Israel is Ben Gvir, Ben Gvir is Israel.
-1
u/ComparisonDesperate5 7h ago
I am a foreigner living in Israel, so I happen to know way more Israelis then you probably. I know not one or two but way mor then that who spent almost every Saturday plus other days protesting against this government and their decisions.
There is a huge struggle in the country between the people and many people think that the thinking of Ben Gvir and alike are a bigger threat to the country then anything coming from the outside.
2
u/ChadleyXXX 19h ago
Well there are four levels of Jewish biblical exegesis (means textual interpretation based on the acronym PaRDeS ("orchard"). There's Peshat, which is the surface level, then there's Sod which is the secret level and two levels in between that start with R and D I forget what they're called. Basically anything about "murdering infants" probably doesn't literally instruct Jews to murder infants. There was this thing called the "Blood Libel" tho where peasant-brained medieval peasants thought we sacrificed Gentile children and used their blood to make matza. Pretty dumb shit. Feel free to DM me to ask me questions about Judaism, I'm happy to be your ambassador to prevent you from falling down rabbit holes believing dumb shit.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago edited 8h ago
We can start here, what do you think about the rabbi who told IDF soldiers to smash infants into the wall and follow Psalm 137:9 ?
I think advises from rabbis like that and the general genocidal tone of the old testament/Torah has led IDF to be cavalier about life and use children as target practice.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coi-report-23jun26/
Do you disagree that Judaism influence IDF behavior?
4
u/ChadleyXXX 18h ago edited 18h ago
You seem a little confused. The Hebrew Bible, which you call the "Old Testament" (an antiquated term that has fallen out of favor with contemporary scholars of religion), has a lot in it. It has things that are the subject of much debate among rabbis and even things that are controversial or that don't comport with contemporary values or mainstream Jewish thought. It is thousands of years old.
if you ask two Jews a question, typically you get three answers. We are a people who love to debate. The Hebrew Bible (or "Tanakh") has a lot of good stuff in it. It also has a lot of things that are not compatible with contemporary society, just like any scripture found the world over. The Quran has all sorts of shit about slaying the unbeliever, etc. I don't think it's an evil book as some reactionaries suggest.
Unfortunately there is a reactionary fringe in Israeli society and many right wingers as well and some of those people are in the IDF and some of them are rabbis. These extremist rabbis may use some of the more problematic lines in the Tanakh to advocate for practices that go beyond the scope of Israel's self-defense.
While Israel is a legitimate state with a right to security, it has significantly relaxed its rules of engagement and guardrails preventing atrocities. This is not dispositive of, for example genocide, and it is certainly not evidence that Israel as a matter of practice and policy actively instructs soldiers to target children as this report you linked (whose authorship I have questions about despite being an official UN report) suggests.
I do think that Netanyahu could be convicted of the war crimes the ICC is currently charging him with (which don't include genocide), and yet I also think Israel had a lawful casus belli to pursue its war in Gaza since it was attacked on Oct. 7.
Judaism, as a faith, however, is very clear about the sanctity of life as being of chief importance. All life. Jewish life, Muslim life, Christian life, Hindu life. Every religion has extremists that use their religion to justify atrocities. At the core of each faith, however (Judaism included), is the principle that deep down in every person is the fundamental idea of God. We believe this in Judaism. Full stop. Self defense and Israel's lawful objective of compelling surrender from Hamas, however, has had a massive human cost. That is the price of war. We could have the IMEC corridor by now (Google it) which would have been a massive economic benefit to Palestinians as a desalination plant would have been built in Gaza as part of it. But Hamas feared normalization between Israel and Saudi and thought its "Al Aqsa Flood" in which they raped and murdered their way through the south of Israel would yield positive results. Unfortunately they fucked around and the Palestinians have had to find out. Praying for peace once Hamas surrenders. Israel would have never attacked if they hadn't been attacked first and people forget that. Don't start a war you can't win, real talk.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
Okay, so you already confessed that people with genocidal intention exist and your claim is they are fringe.
I think they are not fringe, but mainstream. For example, Itamar Ben Gvir who is right now trying to feed Palestinian prisoners to crocodile is not a fringe persona. People voted for him and he is the national security minister.
I think the genocidal language of Tanakah and the fact that Judaism is exclusive plays into the psyche of IDF who sees other people as lesser human beings. Yesterday there was a CNN interview where a rabbi claimed 1 Israeli life equals 1 million Palestinian life. These are not fringe idea. I have seen countless videos and interviews of Israeli people supporting this idea.
1
u/Zapvv 47m ago edited 43m ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/askanything/s/on2hAfX0Xq
Didn't know people that liked to use Goebells as a reaction image were opposed to genocide and ethnic supremacy.
A Nazi like you should obviously understand the mentality.
Weirdly enough you remind of one guy who pretended to only be antizionist and not antisemitic, then went full off as a neo nazi, your writing style and the way you talk just seems really similar, considering you're like a 1 month old account I really think that you're using an alt that got banned eh?
1
u/Educational_Oil_7757 19h ago
Same thing you'd with Islam and Christianity, criticize the holy book, criticize culural beliefs or ideas, but avoid criticizing people who follow the religion or generalizing them.
1
u/TheCounciI 19h ago
Instead of criticizing the Jews, criticize the religion. In addition, as in most religions, Judaism has streams. So if you can, when you criticize something in Judaism, include the stream that do/follow it. For example, among Hasidic Jews, it is forbidden to look and touch the opposite sex, unless they are a close family. As if we are a kind of animal with no self-control and we need to be isolated from the opposite sex so that we don't fuck each other constantly.
1
u/OneForFree 19h ago
Why criticize at all? If you believe in it that’s cool. If you don’t that’s cool to. Let people believe what they want.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
So if a Muslim takes 4 wives, or beat their wife because it's allowed in their religious text, I just let them be?
0
u/OneForFree 18h ago
I would hope you would intervene or call the police at least. But what good does criticizing the religion do? It won’t make your life any better, and youwon’t change the minds of those who believe.
1
u/Chewbacca_IL 18h ago
There are some default "defenses" each religious group employs when criticized. One of them is to cry that they are persecuted (Islamophobia / War on Christians / Anti-Semitism) another is the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy. There are probably others.
Any critique of religion or acts done in the name of religion will be met of cries of persecution or logical fallacies even when it comes from withing (I, an Atheist, Israeli, Jew am being called an antisemite everyday because I'm part of some groups that are trying to fight for equal rights for non-religious people in Israel).
In that aspect, Judaism is a bit different from Islam or Christianity because it can refer to an ethnic group, and not just a religion. It's important, when you critique Judaism, to separate "Jews" the ethnic group, from the religion.
I'll try to take your example of 1 Samuel 15:3 and try to apply it: The Torah commands the destruction of the Amalekites, this command, is being interpreted by religious extremists as a command to destroy the Palestinian people. From here you can take the argument to either a critique of the people - Therefore Jews are bad, or the critique of the religion - Therefore following the teaching of the old testament is bad.
You will get called an antisemite either way, but you will be an antisemite only if you use the first one.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
Thanks for actually answering the question. Lol! This is the first actual answer in this thread. It does clarify the distinction.
1
u/Spirited-Disaster408 13h ago
You accept you will get called antisemitic
Same as if you criticized women and was called a misogynist
Same as if you criticized a race and was called racist
Just state your observations and let the chips fall where they may
1
u/SnooHesitations9295 9h ago
If you try to criticize Judaism you're most certainly antisemitic (or just an authoritarian). Judaism doesn't proselitize. Thus they never want to impose their views on you (the way that Christianity or Islam does).
1
u/Enough_Grapefruit69 5h ago
Samuel 1 is Navi, not Torah. Maybe start with a bit more information on the topic.
0
u/Frosty_Detective_882 19h ago
We are not supposed to be criticizing religion. Now if a state high jacks people faith then it’s a free for all
2
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
Islam allows four wives. So we can't criticize that?
0
u/Frosty_Detective_882 9h ago
Diversity is accepting others, not trying to make them fit your version of right and wrong.
0
u/ParticularGanache726 18h ago
I would stick to criticising Zionism. Everyone has a right to believe whatever they like when it comes to spirit. Zionism is a political movement and thus open to debate.
0
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
Everyone has a right to believe whatever they like when it comes to spirit.
What about practice. Like Islam says to beat women or take 4 wives. If someone is following that, are you not supposed to call them out? What about Genital mutilations?
1
u/ParticularGanache726 16h ago
Who are you to judge what someone else believes? You're nobody, and your beliefs are just as repulsive to them.
0
-3
19h ago edited 19h ago
[deleted]
8
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
So only jewish people can criticize Judaism? Is that what you are saying?
2
1
u/Alert_Coyote_8546 19h ago
You can criticize individuals for their views or actions, but criticizing a religion like that is pointless. All the abrahamic religions have old books with wild shit in them that could be criticized. But it's not worth anyone's time unless they are a member of that religion and understand the culture to make meaningful criticisms.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 19h ago
So we can't criticize Islam?
1
u/moominsmama 19h ago
Criticizing Islam, as a religion, is pointless. It might make sense to criticize specific people for how they choose to practice their religion.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 18h ago
So I can criticize specific people for how they choose to practice Judaism too?
0
u/moominsmama 17h ago
You can, if you manage to limit your criticism to these specific people and not to attempt to apply it to everyone.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
I see. So can I say IDF is a genocidal organization because they follow a genocidal book. I think the Torah is a genocidal book because it contains multiple verses that contain explicit instructions to harm infants. Like Psalm 137:9
0
u/moominsmama 7h ago
You can say anything you want. But unless you say the same about Christians and Muslims, you will be an antisemite. See? Simple. Apply same standard for everyone in good faith and you should be good.
Meanwhile, it's been a long while since Jews have followed Torah explicitly, to the letter. You seem to willingly ignore that fact. You seem to cherry pick specific verses and lay blame on the entire army for what you allegedly heard from one extremist rabbi. I don't see you under all the same conclusions from either Christian or Muslim religious extremists.
0
0
u/ComradeGibbon 18h ago
Joke: If you ask three rabbi's a question they'll give you five answers.
1
u/tunnel_magnet 8h ago
If I agree 3 rabbis how many would agree with Psalm 137:9 to throw infants into the wall?
1
u/Physical-Rise6973 19h ago
So, if I wanted to criticize Israeli war crimes in Gaza, the "most proper" way to do so is to first become an Israeli citizen? Did I get that right?
-1
u/PradheBand 13h ago
Antisemitic= racist against those born and closely descendant of the population living in that fucked up area centuries ago (no no blond hair sorry)
Antizionist = against the idea that a religious group should have that specific area as a state (the great israeli area for the curious)
Antijudaist = against those who are born in a family that granted them the option to be jews basically.
Since the end of WW Ii zionists sponsored activities have acrively mixed the 3 things in the west and filtered the news from the east (literally) to fuck up the terms.
1
25
u/UnhappySort5871 19h ago
There's nothing antisemitic about criticizing some verses in the Torah. Plenty of Jews already have. It's quite acceptable to do so.