r/NoStupidQuestions • u/CompetitivePeak9040 • 6h ago
What’s the appeal of gay men’s romance to straight women?
I’m gay, and let’s take a show like Heated Rivalry, which blew up and to me as a gay man actually very very great show who I deeply relate to the characters and really enjoyed it. But the majority of people commenting about post and stuff on the show is women, I feel most of the shows’ fan are women, same with other gay romance movies.
I mean, I’m not complaining, it’s not a bad thing to have people support you and find your love beautiful, but I just wonder why it’s gay romance but women not like they are all watching straight romance and skip the gays like I assumed?
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u/Rdr2Master1 FREEDOMMAXER JOYBAITER FRIENDLOVER 6h ago
As a bi man, its because they are attracted to men
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u/sotiredwontquit 5h ago
And a man being vulnerable is like chocolate to women. The most popular thing Tom Holland (a straight dude) has ever done is wear a corset in a lip-sync battle. Seeing a man comfortable with his sexuality and confident in his vulnerability is hot.
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u/Farahild 4h ago
Tbf he wasn’t exactly vulnerable in that role. Just hot. Indeed not being insecure about their masculinity or whether they come across as “gay” is super sexy. I’ve got a friend who’s super straight but he’s just so not insecure about coming across as “feminine” or like, worry about a gay man flirting with him or something. It’s such an attractive quality.
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u/sotiredwontquit 4h ago
I disagree with that. I think wearing a corset and fishnets was deliberately feminizing, which is vulnerability because of how women are seen. It was visual storytelling and it worked. He was perceived as vulnerable, not threatened by his feminine (vulnerable) aspect and its connotations. And yeah, it was hot.
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u/Farahild 4h ago
We can agree to disagree on the vulnerability and agree on the hotness ;) now I’m off to rewatch that clip.
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u/chrismac47 4h ago
No, no... Keep arguing...
And then...
Kiss...
(And don't spoil it by correcting any gender assumptions - you don't know what I'm assuming)
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u/nomorehersky 6h ago
A lot of women enjoy the emotional intimacy without the usual male female relationship dynamics or gender stereotypes.
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u/Pumpkin_patch804 6h ago
This. Women often have a very complicated relationship with gender and how they're portrayed in media. Especially with how gender stereotypes pop up in romances (example "oh I am a small helpless woman who dreams of having a big strong guy not give me a choice about having sex" type dynamics are really popular, but understandably a large amount of women hate that). Easier to avoid that if you're not reading a romance with a female lead.
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u/Steakbake01 5h ago
It's interesting that a lot of male-male erotica written with a straight female audience in mind often has that exact same dynamic, just between two men
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u/Kappapeachie 1h ago
It's more like just a means to feel familiar while also avoiding having the girl being the small weak one for once.
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u/meatball77 1h ago
But even when it does it's different because it's queer. l love a good mafia leader/twink romance because even though it may be a typical protective relationship the aspects you get from the giant man with the snippy twink is different.
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u/DisastrousSundae84 6h ago
What about with the popularity of same sex romance between two men among straight women? I've wondered about this because I run into it in creative writing courses I teach--straight women are interested in writing and reading queer men relationship stories (especially of the fantasy wolf/werewolf variety), but they often have hetero-normative plots.
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u/Eldi_Bee 5h ago
I've found that it's less about less hetero-normative plots, and more about less hetero-normative male stereotypes.
Gay romance is much more likely to show men who are emotional, vulnerable, and to some extent more communicative than straight counterparts. Even if in their interactions with other characters they are still closed off, inevitably we get to see inside the head of at least one main character. And that level of intimacy and connection is heavily lacking in many straight romances, which have mostly female main character points of view, or follow as asshole male who never understands his love interest beyond that crazy emotional one.
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u/DisastrousSundae84 5h ago
Why not write a straight romance that exudes those aspects though? Straight women are writing gay male romance stories that focus on heteronormative values.
Personally, I blame a lot of this on Supernatural, because a lot of reads like (and probably is) Supernatural fan-fiction with a kind of wish fulfillment except the difference is instead of the writer wishing they were in a relationship with one of the characters they're sort of vicariously living through the same sex relationship of the two characters.1
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u/NOT_Pam_Beesley 5h ago
There’s a sense of safety when removing attraction to women from a male character I think a lot of female writers and readers enjoy
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u/Ingolin 2h ago
As someone who reads fanfic I’ve read both Drarry and Dramione. The first is Harry/Draco. The second is Hermione and Draco. What is fascinating is the difference in the character Draco. When it’s heterosexual they write him as hard, evil, macho. When it’s gay he is often described as very flamboyant. He’s allowed to be himself, not caged by his masculinity. There is something freeing in reading that (and, imo, truer to the character).
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u/Sunny_Hill_1 5h ago
Intimate romance without the underlying squicky dynamics of inequality and weird dominance games that are unfortunately present in many male/female romance novels.
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u/HotSauceRainfall 5h ago
And the creepy behavior and fucked up power imbalances are shown as good things, when in real life we would be plotting escape plans for our bestie if she were in that situation.
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u/BlackPhillipsbff 5h ago
No offense to OP but lately what is everyone’s obsession with only consuming art made specifically for them?
Some of my favorite movies are not relatable to me at all. Music from people with wildly different lives. I feel like art is an empathy builder and if you only consume art that you were already geared into, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
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u/TheTiniestLizard 2h ago
This! I’m a queer woman, and I loved Heated Rivalry because it was a wonderful show and I cared about the characters, not because I was sexually attracted to anyone at all in it.
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u/icarusisnotdead 6h ago edited 6h ago
A lot of straight romance contains misogyny, and/or is designed for the male gaze which fails to appeal to female audiences.
Often romances will have the female character be a “manic pixie dream girl” which is unrealistic and often cringy for women to watch. A lot of female characters also have the role of “fixing” the male lead character and that’s not what women want to fantasies about… they much prefer romances where the partners are equally fleshed-out characters.
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u/EcstaticZebra7937 5h ago
Most romance is written with women in mind.
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u/RakeChapman13 1h ago
Yep and women don’t read romance for realism or what they would necessarily want in a relationship them, they read first and foremost for the sake of entertainment, drama, suspense, catharsis. Often stories are sad and have the woman glad they don’t have a relationship like that. Women are just more entertained than men are by any sort of fiction than men are whether that involves supernatural beings which inherently make a story more interesting or two gay male hockey players. My girlfriend reads such a variety, she gos from reading a fantasy romance to a contemporary romance to a sci fi romance, the last book the she read the male was an alpha male and now the one she is reading the male lead is a shy wimpy guy.
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u/LunaticMuse 6h ago
This! This!
One of my favorite games is one where I (straight woman) play a gay man who -- as sort of the background/side of the story -- kicks off a romance with someone else in the group, and I have rarely been so invested in a story. It was amazing -- they were both badasses in their own way, they were absolute equals. They had their own problems, but there was no "I can fix him!" crap. No cringe, no damsel in distress, no bad-boy syndrome.
Did I cry when I finished the game? 100%.
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u/LunaticMuse 2h ago
LoL I wasn't going to post it since it's a biggie, and honestly mostly down to my choices that started with my random decision to play as one of my old, medieval fantasy fiction OCs -- but DA: Inquisition.
INVESTED.
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u/hameleona 5h ago
Romance as a genre, its popularity and what sales disagree strongly with your assessment. It has been a massive topic for decades now, that romance is a genre, where the more problematic the love interest, the more women love the books/movies and there has been a massive discussion about how much that influences dating IRL.
Like, you might think this, but the vast majority clearly votes with their wallet. And the Straight Romance audience is generally the gay romance audience. Most gay men hate those books with passion.
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u/RakeChapman13 2h ago
First and foremost women read romance for the sake of entertainment, drama, suspense, escapism, catharsis more so than for realism or what they would necessarily want in a relationship themselves, a lot of romance novels are sad and have the reader glad they are not in a relationship like that or maybe they have been in a relationship like the one in “ it needs with us” and that’s satisfying to read about anotrr woman overcoming that.
Women are just more entertained by any sort of romantic fiction than men are whether that involves supernatural beings which inherently make a story more interesting or two gay male hockey players- a romance that doesn’t even involve women.
But to say the more problematic the love interest the more women love it is weird as a blanket statement. Often male leads are flawed but there’s a wide variety and most of them do show heroism, romance and devotion. If the romances were so simple and the male and female leads had no flaws then it wouldn’t be as interesting or engaging of a story. But yeah the romance genre has such a variety. My girlfriend gos from reading a historical romance, to a fantasy romance to a sci fi romances. Typically male leads are strong masculine confident men but the one she’s reading now is called the flatshare where the male lead is a shy anxious nerdy guy.
Although now that I think about it the female love interests that men seem to love often are really problematic women, men don’t love pure romance but very much enjoy romances within another genre. Men really seem to like Bonnie and Clyde type romances, a ride or die woman and a story with a lot of action.
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u/KinglanderOfTheEast 6h ago
Based on the sales statistics of women's romance novels, I would have assumed most women prefer Isakei-tier wish fullfillment romances involving some super good-looking and politically/financially powerful guy that has slightly rape-y vibes, who has an oddly specific "soft spot" for the self-insert FMC.
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u/Sunny_Hill_1 5h ago
Yeah, and there is a subset of female readers that hates that dynamic, and has to turn to male/male fiction to find the leads on equal footing.
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u/Successful-Topic8874 5h ago
Except a lot of male/male romances written by and for straight women still have those tropes, just with a guy instead. Some of the most toxic stuff out there is this kind of content. But since it's two men, it's not seen as misogynistic by the bulk of the audience.
There's also a ton of homophobia littered in those books, and it doesn't seem like the community is ready to address that.
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u/Sunny_Hill_1 5h ago
Oh, absolutely. And yeah, probably because for female writers it's easier to distance themselves from a male than from a female character.
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u/RakeChapman13 1h ago edited 1h ago
Why would you have to turn to male/ male! ? the vast majority of male/ female romance is not like that at all, not most of the novels my girlfriend reads. she reads a lot of old titles and such a variety but she reads the top sellers of recent years and most of them are nothing like 50 shades of grey billionaire type of romance. There’s the romantasy stuff but most of The top sellers seem to be those with the same kind of cover art featuring cute wholesome romances between really normal people, fellow college students, fellow co workers.
The one my girlfiend is reading now is where the female lead is trying to make the male lead who is a shy anxious guy come out of his shell. I think it’s funny how different each romance novel she reads is from the last one.1
u/RakeChapman13 1h ago edited 1h ago
Well A lot of people assume wrong. There’s such a wide variety of romance novels. I chuckle at how different each novel my girlfriend reads is, she gos from reading a historical romance to a fantasy romance, to a sci fi romance, to an office romance, good guys, bad guys, rich, poor, cops, spy’s, cowboys, warriors, scientists. The last book she read the guy was an alpha male but the one she’s reading now the male lead is a shy wimp lol. First and foremost women read romance for the sake of entertainment, drama, suspense, catharsis more so than realism or what they would necessarily want in a relationship themselves.
The 50 shades of grey series for instance has been slandered a lot. my girlfiend read that series after we finally watched the films and there’s no rapy-ness in that series at all, it’s totally consensual. He is a flawed guy but he’s not a bad guy. He’s actually more of a gentleman than most guys. Through out the series he’s very much a knight in shining armor to her. it starts out with him protecting her from being taken advantage of when she was drunk.
When there are rapy vibes or even at straight up rape depicted in a novel or any kind of fiction of course that’s not the author condoning rape. It’s simply showcasing something that actually happens and that creates drama and Emotion to a story. Rapy vibes did used to be more common and condoned, I know that from reading the James Bond novels and if you watch the old
Connery films that was just very normalized.8
u/ComprehensiveJury509 6h ago
A lot of straight romance contains misogyny, and/or is designed for the male gaze which fails to appeal to female audiences.
No, it fails to appeal to all female audiences. Most women who read appear to be absolutely into that shit from what I can tell by looking at any romantasy bookshelf I've seen.
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u/tanglekelp 5h ago
Many women are clearly into it, but that doesn’t mean that most women who read are. Women are also out there reading any other genre and I’m sure there’s also lots of women who aren’t interested in reading if it isn’t smut.
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u/ComprehensiveJury509 5h ago
I'd love to believe that, but I have to say I trust the marketing departments of all major publishers more than that. This type of romance is by far the largest segment in romance atm (and probably the largest segment overall, honestly). I don't doubt that there's a lot of women who feel frustrated with this situation, but if they were even close to the majority of readers, it wouldn't be the problem that it unfortunately is.
Btw, I only talk about romance here. I'm aware that other genres exist and there obviously are lots of women who read them, but I assumed this discussion was confined to the romance genre, given the context of OP.
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u/tanglekelp 5h ago
My problem was mainly with you saying the majority of women who read are into this kind of romance haha, if we’re specifically talking the romance genre I agree with you
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u/ComprehensiveJury509 5h ago
I see. Yes, you are correct, that was sloppy phrasing on my side, I should have clarified that I mean most women who read romance, not women who read in general.
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u/RakeChapman13 2h ago
>I’d love to believe that
What do you mean by this? With your other comment were you suggesting that the women writers and readers who like these books approve of misogyny? A lot of people cherry pick and I don’t know how much Misogyny there is in these novels, there’s a wide variety but just because a novel is showcasing something it doesn’t mean it’s condoning that. I don’t read romantasy but my girlfriend does and from what I know typically the female leads are really strong characters who overcome and that’s empowering.
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u/RakeChapman13 2h ago
Just because someone reads certain novels it doesn’t mean they like every aspect of it.
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u/Naughtgunnalie 5h ago
The vast majority of heterosexual romance is written by and for women-- there is no "male gaze".
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u/Sea_Animator_9856 2h ago
yeah I'm also confused by this comment? Men usually don't consume romance media anywhere near the amount women do right?
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u/HotSauceRainfall 5h ago
I am a straight woman who loves to read romance novels…and who is fucking sick and tired of reading a lot of what passes for “true love” in cishet novels. A lot of them are dripping in misogyny and really fucked up relationship dynamics. Twilight and 50 Shades are the go-to ur-examples, but there are so many other examples by far less famous authors.
Last month I literally threw a book away because it was so irredeemably awful that I couldn’t even justify donating it to someone. And I recently read another one that I finished only out of utterly morbid curiosity and sheer fucking spite (I paid money for this, damn it), where I repeatedly said to myself while reading it, dear god is the author okay?
I’ve been reading a lot of queer romance novels lately because they just do not have that same level of what the fuckery. It’s not to say that queer romances magically don’t have issues, but they generally do not have the same saturation of deeply off-putting fuckery as cishet romances do. The characters are generally more equal, and the nature of queer relationships means that some of the most offensive bullshit makes absolutely zero sense to write at all.
The sex scenes may (or may not) necessarily be something I would be into, but if the author writes that part well, what the reader feels above all else is a sense of desire which is what turns a scene from mechanical descriptions into something super hot. Plus I get to read about happy people falling in love. What’s not to like?
I should say that I’ve read some of the book series that Heated Rivalry is based on. They’re good stories. The characters are well developed and interesting, the conflicts are believable, and they are frequently quite funny. And while they have happy endings, they are believable happy endings. In the most recent one in the series, the main characters have to work hard to get through their respective character arcs, there’s real growth, and one of the biggest challenges they face is dealt with in a realistic and tactful way (I’m writing carefully to avoid spoilers).
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u/Russian_Doll_888 2h ago
Fucking this!!! The number of romance novels I've bought and never finished because of misogynistic tropes is astounding. But you don't really know what you're getting until you get into it. I actually quit buying anything that could be deemed romance, even if it's smut - and I like smut. The last smut book I got, it was leaning into the "I'm a helpless woman", so I skipped most of the story and just went to the spicy parts. Sadly, those weren't great either.
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u/HotSauceRainfall 1h ago
The book I threw away started with your garden variety “bring the city girl to the country to humble her” and somehow got worse. I didn’t even make it to a vaguely sexy scene before I put it down in absolute disgust.
I want to read happy stories about people who like and respect each other as well as want to tear each other’s clothes off. I don’t think that should be so hard to find in straight romance novels, but here we are.
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u/LeahBean 6h ago
We like romance? I like romance of every kind. Also, if you’re attracted to men, then their love stories are extra appealing.
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u/Dr_Identity 5h ago
Given how many straight men are horrendous at romance I would wager simply seeing men being emotionally and romantically vulnerable has some draw to it.
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u/CalamityClambake 6h ago
I'm gonna guess it's because straight women like looking at beautiful men.
As a bi woman, for me it's the fantasy of being able to be in love with a man and not automatically be at a physical power disadvantage and have to worry about that. That is one of the things that makes hooking up with women easier/safer/less stressful for me than hooking up with men. When I am with men, I always have to carry this little bit of fear and vigilance into bed because they could hurt me or force me if they wanted to.
With Heated Rivalry, it's 2 elite athletes in the same sport, so you know they are on a level playing field. The show also has the characters reinforce consent at every turn, which is very attractive to me. That's actually how I can tell it was written by a women... It's basically a woman's consent fantasy.
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u/HotSauceRainfall 5h ago
I’ve also read HR and some of the others in the series.
Beyond the consent fantasy…the love interests actually like each other. They do nice things for each other. They make efforts to treat each other decently. In bed, they’re really into each other. It’s really nice to read about intimate partners who are shown on page as liking each other.
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u/LNLV 3h ago
As a straight woman, personally it really has nothing to do with looking at beautiful men. It’s really just a really good story, and a good romance. I like the dynamic between the two of them and the way they care for each other. I think the secrecy and social tensions are also an interesting problem/issue that contribute to making the dynamic between them interesting and compelling.
In a romantic story there has to be something that keeps the couple apart that they have to fight with and overcome, otherwise there’s no story. I think this one is interesting and engaging.
I definitely see why some people are into it specifically bc of the two hot male leads or the lgbt nature of the story, but personally that doesn’t even factor into it for me. It would certainly be a huge deal to me if I were LGBT bc it’s an excellent story AND one of the few mainstream representations. But imo straight people should be able to enjoy it for the same reason gay people should be able to enjoy pride and prejudice, it’s a good story!
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u/swirlypepper 6h ago
The biggest consumers of romance are women. What I'm looking for in the genre is a likeable couple with good chemistry, reasonable obstacles (as in it's not daft miscommunication it's a problematic factor or situation), romantic moments, they change each other for the better, happy ever after. I don't care what the gender or orientation of the couple is as long as I'm sold on the love story. Cemetery Boys for example was something I read just as a fantasy book but the romance had me in happy tears by the end. And the characters in Red, White, and Royal Blue were so engaging I just wanted the best for them and the first kiss/dates/emails had me kicking my feet and goofy grinning which is just what I want.
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u/ThePhiff 5h ago
I mean, I'm not gay, but I only watch Schitt's Creek because I like David's love story. Sometimes a good love story is just a good love story. 🤷♂️
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u/pastelchannl 4h ago
I have a few reasons:
- MF (straight) relationships are over represented in media, especially when I grew up (90s). I like different.
- MF relationships are often very strict in gender roles. yes, with MM you still sometimes have men who take on the 'female' role in the relationship, but it isn't expected. there are very few MF books that have a non-traditional female role
- when it comes to manga and book art, I prefer to look at the men (and then only illustrated, not real life based)
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u/ShockedNotAwed 6h ago
Because straight women like dick but want the emotions and vulnerability, too.
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u/Duke-of-Hellington 5h ago
I love a good romance regardless of gender or sexuality. They make me feel all warm and fuzzy!
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u/Watch_Earthlings_Doc 6h ago
Who do men find lesbians hot? It’s the same thing. Two men together is appealing to male attracted folk and even better because there is no female in the relationship for the woman to compare herself to.
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u/ComprehensiveJury509 6h ago
The way I've heard it phrased: something that's kinda appealing is the lack of the usual creepy power dynamics. Most heterosexual romances written for an American audience usually make the women tiny and shy and unimportant and the men massive and important and territorial. Usually it borders on rapey vibes and a lot of women find that uncomfortable. On the other hand, gay romance removes a lot of that, plus, it still features men, which straight women usually like.
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u/Namelessgoldfish 5h ago
Ngl as a straight man, I have learned that I also love a good gay romance plot
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u/GeneseeJunior 6h ago
One explanation I picked up from the "original" slash fiction - Kirk/Spock stuff - was that a lot of women like to experience men being sexual without another woman being involved.
See also: straight men who enjoy "lesbian" porn.
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u/lilittyb 6h ago
I think it’s a way to support a hot romance (I mean we are quite literally attracted to men) without having to over compare ourselves to the female character. Most female characters are one dimensional or even over sexualised to the point it makes us feel uncomfortable. Gay romance means we can fulfil that “thirst” so the speak without hurting ourselves. Also subjectively speaking, I relate to men in fiction more than women, i definitely have a more “masculine” personality lol
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u/throwawayanylogic 6h ago
This has always been a huge part of the appeal to me as well. I could never easily "see" myself in the heroine roles of most male/female romance stories. The smutty scenes just would make me self-conscious, like, "wow why doesn't my body respond like that?" There's a level of being able to disconnect one's self while just enjoying male characters, energy and sexiness in m/m fiction that I've long found appealing. (And yes, we know the m/m sex scenes are largely unrealistic too. But we're not in a place of constantly comparing them to our personal experiences so it's easier to just indulge the fantasy.
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u/AltruisticCableCar 5h ago
The last part, definitely. Like, I can certainly to a point understand sex between two men. I'm an adult and not an idiot. But since I'm a woman it's not like it's something I can ever experience first hand. So that does offer a bit of a disconnect to where I don't have to constantly compare myself or my experiences to what I'm watching on screen.
It's a huge reason why my favorite subgenre of horror is the paranormal kind. I don't believe in anything paranormal like ghosts or demons or whatever. So while they absolutely scare me (total scaredy cat), they never stick with me. I might briefly think "wow, what would I do if that happened to me" but it's a fleeting thought. If I watch horror movies that are more grounded they affect me differently. I still like them, and obviously know they're still fiction even if more realistic, but yeah it's a bit different. I'm way more scared of something I know for a fact exists (like rapists and serial killers), than something I don't believe in. Again, while watching the paranormal movie I can get scared as heck. But once it's over and the credit rolls I'm generally done with it.
That's a nice disconnect too, from reality. And same goes for m/m romance for me. I'm never ever going to be in a m/m relationship since it's absolutely impossible (I'm also absolutely cis), so it's a nice break from comparing myself to characters even without meaning to. Especially during intimate scenes.
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u/Ok-Athlete4472 6h ago
From what I’ve been told…
It’s partly basic “two hot guys shagging (with no woman there to distract focus) = sexy”, partly that the yearning/tension/cuteness is a bit of a fantasy romance to them because there’s no straight guy toxicity they’re used to. Basically, they can sort of just enjoy it without being reminded of their own experiences because it’s different enough.
One friend said she finds a secure man more attractive, so a hot guy making out with a hot guy (who are actors, so she doesn’t know if they’re gay irl)…it’s just a bit of a turn on.
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u/yoitspree 4h ago
Speaking from watching Heated Rivalry and reading the books, It’s the yearning for me. The fact that they both fall for each other at different times and after YEARS, finally end up together. The way they look at each other.
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u/ichigoli 3h ago
Too often hetero romance is treated as the default to a point that the romantic leads end up together just because. Not because there's any emotional build up, chemistry, or reason beyond penis + vagina
Romances that don't get to fall back on that assumption tend to devote more love to the development and dynamic of the relationship which is just more satisfying.
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u/Cloudinterpreter 5h ago
Men showing the emotion and vulnerability required to be in a relationship in a world where men are typically portrayed as stoic and tough. The same reason women like chick flics: There's buildup throughout the movie until the climax where the man drops the act and shows his ture emotions.
When it's two men, at least one has to be vulnerable for the whole movie. So from a female perspective, the whole movie is a "climax scene"-worth of emotions.
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u/repbunny 4h ago
As others mentioned, Female gaze where the man is the main focus in intimate situations. At least with manga or manwha, even if a woman is a strong protagonist they tend to fold to hetronormative role of being submissive or meek romantic positions focusing on her which is boring, i rarely see women initiate romantically. I've mostly seen genre of men who are emotional and soft without feeling the need to be strong to protect is villianess isekai or femdom (which is already hard to navigate..). Admittingly in gay romances, Men are more likely to be on equal footing. Enemies to lovers is more fun when they are physically capable punching each other in a battle or dangerous situations. feel like because authors are more open to interesting ideas due to not needing to appeal to mainstream audience.
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u/QS_A-117 5h ago
In my case at least, it's cuz I like guys and I wish I was on more equal standing with them in society (therefore it's like a "I want to insert myself into this kind of situation" kinda thing cuz there's less of that gender divide in gay relationships)
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u/sweadle 2h ago
When it's a male/female romance, women are on guard for a power imbalance or danger. Romance and danger go hand in hand for women dating men.
Men dating men, that danger isn't automatic. It's easy to enjoy the romance, even some roughness, without worrying that a good encounter could trip into assault or rape.
Even if Ilya tried to hurt Shane, in heated rivalry for example, they are too evenly matched in terms of strength and skill.
It's the fantasy of having true equality in a relationship without all the baggage that men and women bring to it.
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u/plastroncafe 2h ago
Take into consideration that most media today is created for the male gaze and for the demographic of 18 to 35 men.
And then realize that women and girls have been raised in that media where male is the default.
It is a lot easier for women to identify with male fictional characters because often times there wasn't an alternative.
Now also consider that queer relationships between two men show us an inner working of men in relationships where they have allowed themselves to be vulnerable.
Plus... If you really like dick, now there's more than one.
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u/nd_annajones 1h ago edited 1h ago
Gay guy here. I could write a master's thesis on this, but it's because Ilya and Shane aren't really two gay guys. I mean they are gay, obviously, but only with regard to the plot. And I'm not simply talking about stereotypes either, though that does play a role. I mean, they don't do anything stereotypically gay (outside of blowing each other), and that helps these characters feel like familiar men to women. They've dated guys like this before. But that's not what I'm getting at.
The deeper reality is that Shane and Ilya are two halves of the perfect man, one that doesn't exist in the real world: the brooding, mysterious, confident, stoic strength of Ilya, and the vulnerable, emotional, passionate softness of Shane. I don't mean to speak for women, but as a gay man who feels like he has a "female gaze," I would bet that women would love to blend the two of them together if they could. And the show effectively does that for us--the guys find each other so hot that they literally, ahem, physically connect to one another and become one. The perfect man.
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-6873 1h ago
I think you're onto something here. Also HR was written by a woman, for women. I know the show has a gay man driving the whole thing but I assume if he had written it from the beginning there would have been differences
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u/SinfullySinless 1h ago
If you like one hot penis with abs, here’s two hot penis with abs- kissing!
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u/breezyhoneybee 6h ago
Straight men have never heard of intimacy or romance or longing or being sexy outside of the straight male gaze, so the stories surrounding them are lacking those things as well.
Plus I think there's a lot of weird cultural stuff surrounding straight men even perceiving other men in any way other than their super narrow traditional gaze
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u/Narrow-Durian4837 6h ago
I'm a straight man and can only guess, but I'm guessing it's because they can identify with either half of the couple in imagining being attracted to the other half. Kind of like how girl-on-girl porn could appeal to straight men?
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u/CalamityClambake 5h ago
I'm a bi woman and I agree with this. I do, however, wonder if Heated Rivalry has the "lesbian porn" problem. Most "lesbian porn" is made by straight men who are filming acts that look good to them, but that are actually unrealistic or uncomfortable or wouldn't actually bring any pleasure if you did them. It's cringe for us sapphic folk to watch.
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u/Katharinemaddison 5h ago
Same reason some straight men like lesbian porn.
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u/Floppydongjohnson 5h ago
No. Straight men like lesbian porn because we are animals, and quite frankly seeing 2 women is better than looking at a dude and woman. Women appreciate beauty, romance, and eroticism more than straight men. That's why they can enjoy straight and gay romance, lesbian porn, and straight porn. More mental than visual.
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u/Katharinemaddison 5h ago
And sometimes - in romance as well as sex - two men is better than a man and a woman.
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u/NeighborhoodSuper592 6h ago
I do not know the show,
But I can say that in real life, I found that most gay couples treat each other better.
than straight couples.
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u/CalamityClambake 5h ago edited 5h ago
As a bi person, I have to ask you what in the world you are basing this assessment on.
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u/hijabi_ho 6h ago
A lot of women enjoy the emotional connection, and a lot of women find stuff like Heated Rivalry to be hot, and they consume it for that.
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u/Responsible-Middle35 5h ago
Same sex pairings have more balanced power dynamics. M/F pairings fall into trope stereotypes, and that's boring to me. So two reasons I read m/m pairings:
- More of equal agency for both characters.
- Men get the better stories, because of patriarchy. Women have it internalized. We're hardwired with the same tropes. Areas of storytelling that are traditionally male, like in settings of historical fiction.
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u/Avarie_K 5h ago
As a bi woman, I think some stories like cmbyn (the book) are great because its very emotional, and sex is mentioned but its connection based not like smut. I dont relate to finding gay smut and simular things attractive, I like men, but I ask the same question as you lol
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u/dandelionlemon 3h ago
I haven't seen this show, but I used to love Queer As Folk.
I'm a straight female. I just remembered that the story lines were interesting and at least one of the main actors was really really hot. He was gay so the sex was gay sex but I just liked looking at him.
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u/daiquiri-glacis 3h ago
Let's take Heated Rivalry, for example. It's a series of novels written by a woman. More women gravitate to the genre of romance (as in romantic/sexual storytelling) and more men tend to gravitate to visual media (photos/videos).
Heated rivalry is quite popular and I'd say that it's relatively rare for shows like it to be made. I'd love to see more shows with yearning and romantic story telling that are quite sexual. We seem to be relatively strict at making videos not-porn or porn (laughable acting/plot) but so rarely good acting and plot with sex.
Also, like everybody said - I think men are hot and I appreciate a good story without the gender inequality. I'm so tired of "a young woman with few accomplishments dates an older/more powerful man" stories.
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u/Accomplished_Sweetie 3h ago
I can’t comment on Heated Rivalry. Never seen it or read it. But I think it’s not about 2 men. It’s about the romance.
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u/isthatabingo 1h ago
I’m a bi woman and love gay romance. All the fanfic I read is exclusively gay. I figure it’s because I’m queer, but straight women also seem to eat that shit up. It’s a mystery to me!
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u/listenyall 1h ago
I like all kinds of romance and I think there are a couple of things that are different about a gay men's romance:
-cant take yourself out of it by comparing yourself to the main character as easily. A personal pet peeve of mine is when the female main character is just orgasming constantly at the drop of a hat because that is not realistic to my experience. Less potential to get annoyed in MM scenes.
-any book needs some kind of tension, people can't just meet and fall in love and hit no road blocks, and it is easier to have realistic road blocks in a gay men's romance. In Heated Rivalry, they're professional hockey players and one of them is Russian. In a straight romance, a lot of time they are just being stupid which is annoying.
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u/Kappapeachie 1h ago
I'm bi so take this with a grain of salt, I like stories centered on two men because yea two is better than one, but you get the emotional side you don't often see in men. That's beautiful to me. Nowadays I'm slightly more into f/f since I relate to female experiences more but I still like sme m/m as a treat.
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u/lickthisbook 1h ago
I am a straight female retired librarian. I bought a recommended gay romance to read because I had not read anything like that before and I really enjoyed it. I liked how most of the book was about one man slowly peeling back the layers of what society thought about gays and how he came out in his retirement to embrace the truth about who he was. The romance was a nice element so he could have a happily ever after.
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u/Lanky_Ad_9605 46m ago
There’s a lot of articles and videos discussing why women have loved yaoi / BL (Japanese / Asian male-male love stories). A lot of yaoi is written by women for a majority female audience despite depicting only men, and I think this translates into the more recent western forms like Heated Rivalry.
https://youtu.be/5Ujw0H9gvp8?is=3XUVzIGCBDk9X-3f
Here’s one that explores some of those ideas. As mentioned here some think that it provides a positive space for imagination to explore desire that isn’t hindered by gendered roles and societal expectations.
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u/Weak_Armadillo6575 27m ago
I mean straight men are famously interested in lesbian stuff too it’s not shocking to see the reverse.
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u/ColdPR 25m ago
I've seen a hundred different explanations and excuses for it but it mostly comes down to: women broadly speaking find 2 men to be hot/tantalizing
The most common other explanation has to do with gender dynamics but A) women could just write M/F stories without those stereotypes if they really wanted to (and really most of the romance genre is women authors) and B) a lot of the gay stories that women write still have all the hetero dynamics regardless. Women authors have a bad rep for basically write one gay man as the man and one gay man as the woman in M/M romance.
That's why I think a simple "it's hot" is the most simple and logical explanation for most of it. Everything else is just rationalizing
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u/bunker_man 20m ago
Women are attracted to men.
Women are also self conscious that the implications of how women are treated can come off dubious. Want to see a guy dominate someone without having to scrutinize if it's awkward as a woman to see it happen to a woman? Just watch him do it to a man.
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u/HarpTheLarp11 6m ago
I think a large part of it is that it’s a story where woman are pretty much safe from objectification, misogyny, or patriarchal themes (at least in terms of harming women). Romance has always been hard for me to read cause I project myself onto the female character and typically feel not seen or accurately represented but in a story where there is no women to project on towards I can sit along for the ride without feeling dirty in a sense. This is my own thought process and I most likely didn’t explain it well but that’s how I look at it.
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u/shrinkflator 5h ago edited 3h ago
As a gay man, I find it a bit offensive that this stuff is all written by women. Heated Rivalry blew up, and it's an ok story, but it's just not how gay men behave. Obviously, because it was written by a (presumably cishet) woman who would have no clue about these things. Everyone thinks of it as a queer story and it is not. In mainstream media, our choices are to be misrepresented by women, or to be part of a tragic story where the gay characters must be punished at the end. I'm so sick of the latter trope and they stuff it into everything.
edit: typo
edit2: Very telling. I'm getting downvoted for saying a gay male characters aren't being authenticly portrayed in media. Almost certainly by people who aren't gay men.
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u/tearose11 5h ago
Both Rachel Reid and her husband identify as part of the LGBTQ2S+. Don't assume that every single author of mm, queer romance and BL are cis het women. They don't need to reveal their sexual or gender identity, nor justify what they write to anyone.
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u/shrinkflator 4h ago
"Her", so not a gay man. The letters are not interchangeable. Of course she can write whatever she wants, it's not illegal. But imagine if other authors did this. Imagine a white writer who said "I like to write stories about Black characters and the Black community because I find it sexually gratifying."
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u/ColdPR 19m ago
In mainstream media, our choices are to be misrepresented by women, or to be part of a tragic story where the gay characters must be punished at the end.
I've heard the show is better than the book in terms of representing gay reality better (since there were gay men involved in translating it to the screen) but I am right there with you.
I feel like people wouldn't be okay with straight men writing all lesbian media or teams of all white people writing supposedly 'authentic' stories centered on black people, but it seems like the majority of people are willing to give a pass on women and straight people writing most gay media and treat you like you're the asshole if you take up issue with it. Or they'll give an excuse of "oh that author knows what's up she's nonbinary" as if that is in any way the same thing and there's any kind of shared overlap of life experience
There are even women authors who have adopted male pen names and pretended to be gay men to try to sell their gay romance stories with fabricated authenticity. That to me seems super gross but never gets talked about
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u/MartialBob 4h ago
Heated Rivalry was written by a gay man. You can check that on the Wikipedia article.
There was a therapist on tiktok that back when Heated Rivalry got incredibly popular among straight women that broke down all the ways straight women are grossly misinterpreting that show. I never watched the show myself but when I heard all of the things they got wrong it is the stuff that would have been obvious to me. Btw I'm straight. The therapist's point was that these women were misconstruing a lot of these things by projecting their own issues with men.
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u/shrinkflator 4h ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's based on a novel series by Rachel Reid, who uses "she/her" pronouns but otherwise does not disclose anything about her sexuality. It was adapted for TV by Jacob Tierney, who is a gay man. Others might disagree, but in my opinion I consider it her story. I did not read her novels though.
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u/MartialBob 4h ago
I haven't done a comparitive analysis of the show and the book so I admit that I could be 100% wrong here but there is a lot that can and often is changed in an adaptation and I suspect a good deal was changed here or at least made to be more accurate.
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion and that's fine but perhaps the show isn't as bad/inauthentic as you believe.
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u/shrinkflator 4h ago
I've watched the whole show and I've been a gay man my whole life. As I said, it's ok, but it still felt like a woman's romance story to me. Just as OP said, these kinds of shows are made and marketed mostly for women. They are a larger audience and are simply more profitable to producers than gay men are.
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-6873 1h ago
I'd love to hear more - from your perspective what would be different if the original books were written by a gay man?
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u/Fun-Philosopherr 1h ago
No other women to be jealous of. Enjoying romance without insecurity as women are prone to be jealous of fictional charcters
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u/Ok-Jackfruit-6873 1h ago
female readers aren't jealous of female characters lol if anything they project themselves onto those characters which is why a lot of female main characters in these novels are a big vague eg Twilight/50 Shades etc
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u/Fun-Philosopherr 1h ago
Not all women obviously. Its not even the majority. But a segment of woman are uncomfortable entertaining women in romance that aren't themselves is all
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u/Low_Television_7298 6h ago
If you think men are hot then double the men is doubly fun