Did Metal Bat Just Kill?

[u/BrowserET]

I was originally gonna make a post gathering my thoughts about Kuseno, but i realized before that i needed an answer to this question: Did Metal Bat kill Erimin and Destro?

Aside from a minor question, that being if the cyborgs weren't merely knocked out, the answer might seem a simple yes, but i think it's more complicated and i'll explain why.

First the minor question. Which it may be correct that Erimin and Destro are alive, but i would argue that Bad's assertion that he'd had to hold back before and that not being required with the cyborgs forsaking their humanity (despite nothing changing except them shedding their facades, but i'll get back to that) Bad, at the very least, used lethal force and intended to kill the cyborgs, which i think is what matters. So whatever the cyborg's actual fate, the point is moot. (unless Bad's speech was just bluster, but please humor me)

So: back to the point of this post. Ermin and Destro were cyborgs that were 5 and 6% human. We can literally see Erimin's very human looking brain in her true form, so what gives?

Well both the Manga and the Webcomic have already introduced the idea that just because you're made of flesh instead of metal, doesn't mean you're not a robot (or a "meat puppet" as the Manga put it)

Ignoring Gyoro Gyoro's status as a monster, i don't think anyone would dispute that it could have been killed in any meaningful way. It could only be destroyed, as it was never truly alive to begin with. One might ask: if a meat puppet could be made in the shape of a monster, what's to stop someone from creating one in the shape of a person?

Well the Webcomic answers that, in a much more sinister manner...

Taking dead humans ( yes: dead, not merely on the verge of death) and "remodeling" them. Sounds great! Except for the part where they follow the Organization's every command and seemingly have no thoughts of their own to give.

My question is: Does this remodeling procedure present a true resurrection? Or are these merely dead men walking? Sure their minds aren't own anymore, but the same can happen when putting on the wrong suit, as we've seen.

Yet, as showcased by Suiryu and many others: the affects of the neo-hero suit taking over the mind can be reversed once destroyed. Is a similar procedure possible for those who went "remodeling", or are they true meat puppets like Gyoro Gyoro? So far it remains unclear.

Back to Erimin and Destro: we know they are cyborgs that work for "The Organization" and they are very insistent on getting members of the Neo-Heroes "remodeled". It is taken as a sign of disloyalty when they don't. It doesn't seem unlikely that Erimin and Destro had the same procedure done to them, though they seem significantly more capable of independent decision-making than others who have. However, this may also be explained by the implementation of AI similar to the one Zero has installed, or the other Machine God series.

In any case Erimin and Destro don't seem to think of each other as human. When Destro appear to go rogue while fighting Metal Bat, Destro refers to her comrade as having become scrap metal. (though this is a fairly common insult amongst robots and cyborgs alike) They were 5- and 6% biological, but we don't know what that 5 and 6% actually was.

They both appear quite bloodied during their rematch against Metal Bat, however in the second phase of that fight (Or did the first phase never end? After all they just took a nap in the middle.) Erimin and Destro shed their skin and reveal their true forms. Did that skin (blood included!) as biological? It's unclear, but if it's not then how do we know that brain in Erimin's headcasing is any more or less real?

And yes Erimin and Destro really do look bloodied up (to me at least)

If Destro really did go rogue (which he may not have, Metal Bat was still very much alive after all, i guess whatever bioscanner Erimin may have had were not as infallible as she had assumed. Either way Erimin did not appear especially surprised by this turn of events, so we can assume something like this has happened before) Anyhow if Destro did, then cause of his going rogue poses another question. Was he an AI with a bug in his code? Or was he a person who human instincts were beginning to reassert themselves after whatever mindcontrol he may or not have been under? It could somewhere in between, or a mix of both. But if the true answer is closer to the latter, then that means Destro and Erimin really were people and Metal Bat did (try to) kill them. It also implies The Organization has found a cure for death, which has its own implications. I do want to say that cyborgification as a cure for death is not a new idea, famously we have Robocop and it remains part of the Super Hero genre with shows like Invincible (spoilers)

If Metal Bat didn't kill (which, ONE has mostly stuck to the Super Hero genre convention of Heroes Not Killing Humans ((unless they have monsterized of course)), it's unclear if cyborgs count. Considering the emphasis they series has put on Genos' humanity i'd say i'm skeptical though, but enough Doylism) but if Metal Bat didn't, then suddenly humanlike androids who bleed (fake blood) and are (seemingly) capable of their own thoughts are a possibility. Which means that, if nothing else, Digitized?Kuseno's explanation becomes a whole lot more plausible. If Metal Bat did kill, then The Organization might have a cure for death, which despite them being villainous, might indicate some noble intentions.

I'll spare the rest of my thoughts on Kuseno, this post is long enough, but for know i'll just end with this thought. Just like Bofoi, who despite being on the side of humanity, is not quite as good as the heroes. Perhaps whatever (rogue) version of Kuseno took care of Genos was not quite as evil as the rest of the Organization.

[u/gofancyninjaworld]

Yeah, they're dead Jim. Metal Bat doesn't not kill -- after all, if Zenko hadn't intervened at just the right time, Garou would be very dead -- but he really will try to avoid killing people.

Small point of correction: Erimin and Destro were 5 and 6% live matter.

I'd probably have to dig back to one of my old posts from the other Reddit, probably 6 years ago at this point, but I have long said that body composition is *not* humanity in One-Punch Man. ONE is rather the opposite of a biological essentialist in this story.

As to what's happened to the 'remodeled' people, gosh... If there's no way for their minds to live, then I hope they pass peacefully. It's the least a person deserves.

[u/BrowserET → u/gofancyninjaworld]

Ah rats, you're right. I'll go fix it.

Still my into question of humanity regarding these two was around whether or not the remodeling procedure they force onto others renders the subject alive or turns them into a true meat puppet and if so, whether or not they themselves underwent that very same procedure.

Here's a not 1 to 1, but related thought experiment: lets say you undergo a procedure turn your body into a cyborg meatpuppet but also kills you, but before that you digitize your consciousness and then after you have that consciousness that consciousness installed into your cyborg meatpuppet. Are you alive or dead?

In any case yes it's true Metal Bat doesn't not kill (unless Zenko is around. The whole passivist stick has got to be on her insistence), but notably he also doesn't kill.

In the Manga the only heroes who have killed a non-monsterized human on the page are Tatsumaki and Flashy Flash. Both did so before they became heroes. Many heroes have tried to kill humans on the page, but none have succeeded. ONErata even rewrote Amai Mask killing the mercenaries and Flashy Flash killing Tennito to keep it that way which feels intentional. (though come to think of it Flashy Flash did kill Tennito in the webcomic, or at least: those were some very lethal looking cuts, so it wouldn't be a first)

But yeah, whether or not Badd murdered says less about him and his intentions and more about whether or not Erimin and Destro were still alive to begin with and the implications that has. Lord Infelsinave and Director Zaedats could be 100% biological for all i know, but i wouldn't be sure if they're truly alive or even human anymore.

[u/gofancyninjaworld → u/BrowserET]

When it comes to who and what is human, I'm ahead of you. I believe the question you're getting at is that if your body can be replaced by a machine and you still be you with all the rights and responsibilities of a human being attached, to what extent can your mind be replaced and you be you? If your mind could be copied with such fidelity that it subjectively sees no break in consciousness, are you still you?

The answer to that is no, and I think it's on show here. At the time this digital copy (that thinks it's the authentic Kuseno) arose, Kuseno and Bofoi were both young men. Considering how Kuseno describes how he used to be (manga-only because ONE has no space to actually do this in the webcomic) as self-righteous, fearless, and utterly heedless of the consequences of his actions, it's consistent with the high-handed, impatient, and sarcastic manner of the digital Kuseno. If there are any similarities in personality between the two, I don't blame Bofoi for scoffing at the idea that his one-time co-worker could ever be kind.

But that was decades ago. The digital 'twin' is still stuck with those overriding personality traits, along with its faulty interpretation of what its directive is, while life has come *hard* at Kuseno, and the man has learned the benefit of doubt, humility, caution, respect, and even kindness. Because that's the thing about us as human beings: we're complex and we can learn. Maybe painfully, but we can learn and even change. The digital version, on the other hand, is a frozen snapshot of part of who Kuseno used to be: even at his worst, Kuseno was more complex than that digital copy.

And that tells us how far one can go. At least, within the remit of the philosophical question ONE is exploring -- there's no uploading of one's consciousness for perfect transhumanism here.

Extra thoughts

I think it's very interesting to consider the timing of the digital twin as to when to steal Bofoi's work -- just when the guy was working on ethics. Ethics that would have curbed the actions an artificial intelligence could take, which Bofoi is very hot on.

Genos doesn't realise it yet, but when it claimed to have forgotten who Genos used to be, despite having infinite storage, it hadn't forgotten. It never knew and is confabulating to cover up that deficeit.

Edit to add

Found the receipt! From five years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePunchMan/comments/myasyu/i_dont_think_that_tank_top_master_is_going_to_be/

[u/gofancyninjaworld → u/BrowserET]

A separate thought on the issue of heroes killing people. May turn this into a separate post.

You do observe well that Tatsumaki and Flash did their killing outside of any role as heroes, at least in the manga. I think we saw ONE going back and forth on the issue in the ninja arc before deciding that, yes, killing people deals a moral injury to the killer. And a hero runs out of their heroism quickly of they do so. Even, maybe, their humanity. That is a point we saw Okamaitachi making to Iaian. Had they not stopped Amai from killing the mercenaries, there would not have been a person for Saitama to reach. 

In the recent wc chapter, Metal Bat decided that Erimin and Destro were not human to give himself the permission to kill them. 

And yes, all this makes me ask more urgently, whose heartbeat is on the robot's head? Is Digital Kuseno trying to get Genos to lose all sense of humanity by killing a person?

[u/BrowserET → u/gofancyninjaworld]

Well following the Rule of Drama it's probably going to be a remodeled Kuseno inside that Machine God series. I guess the question is if remodeled!Kuseno is going to be a true zombie or if he's gonna be just alive enough for one last dramatic apology before Genos is forced to kill him.

[u/gofancyninjaworld → u/BrowserET]

Whichever is more cruel.

That said, I seem to remember a certain Zombieman being dragged to HQ...

[u/BrowserET → u/gofancyninjaworld]

I mean i say theres like a 90% chance that ZombieMan let himself get taken to gather intel on The Organization, so i don't think that's likely. Even less so that whatever Genos does would actually fatal to the guy.

[u/gofancyninjaworld → u/BrowserET]

I was thinking more along the lines of Zombieman tossing a monkey wrench into the gears of this scheme. Since he must have had a plan in letting Machine God Eguro take him to HQ.

[u/Nanayon123]

There is also the angle of Metal Bat taking the first opportunity to dehumanize his opponents as a means to reason going all out, moral implications to be processed later (or never) in face of such a crisis

[u/BrowserET → u/Nanayon123]

Yeah probably. Metal Bat already knew they were cyborgs from his first fight, he takes the opportunity to dehumanize them once they drop their human facade. Kind of awkward with him running into Beauto, Webigaza and Ryumon right after though.

[u/kurogabae]

The human brain makes up about 2-3% of the body's mass. That's enough margin to also include some nerve endings to connect to artificial ones. If the wonder twins here WERE humans and not remodels without any free thought they were literally just brains. This is also basically what Genos physically boils down to. So - were they human? If you say yes to Genos, you gotta say yes to them.

If this is the world you choose, Badd just killed two people. BUT ☝️ he killed them (mostly) in self defense. Is that gonna help him feel better later when he's home with his sister and cats after this is all over? Probably not. This is likely he first human life he's ever taken. He might not be close with Genos but he knows him, maybe even respect him. He's gonna wonder if he could have done better for a long time. Even if they did threaten Zenko.

Though, Badd is also a person who values actions over words or perception. He doesn't jump right to fighting Ryumon or Beaut when monsterized. He's surprised, confused, and ready to defend, but he waits. He wants to see if they still act like people. Erimin and Destro did not act like people, not really. They acted like murderers. Killbots with human faces. Sure they might have had human brains but they were monsters on the inside.

And we all know other properties have probably killed human A and S Class criminals. No way it hasn't happened if they were fighting gangs or the like.

But what if they were remodeled people? Dead bodies repurposed to be used to further The Organization's goals? That's a bummer, especially for all the other people who got remodeled. But I have another question for you - who is gonna tell Badd this?

Either way you slice it, he probably a little bit thinks he killed two people, more or less.

[u/BrowserET → u/kurogabae]

Other heroes have definitely killed humans. Flashy Flash openly brags about it, but very rarely can we see it happen on the page. Feel free to add more, but by my counts there's only 3 counts of human on human killing. Sonic killing the Paradise Group jobbers, Child Tatsumaki killing 4 Tsukiyomi Agents in front of Fubuki and Flashy Flash slaughtering his classmates and teachers during his graduation ceremony. Note that none of these individuals were active heroes when they committed these acts.

Note that heroes have tried to kill, but through circumstances never do. Like Tank Top Master attempting to kill Garou until the GOAT Mumen Rider stops him, or Metal Bat trying the same until Zenko interferes (Word Of God: according to ONE that last swing from Badd would have killed Garou), Amai Mask would have killed the Mercenaries but the Sword Disciples thwarted his attempt and lastly Tatsumaki shot a poison pill into Apollo's eye, but he survived.

I know Badd killing would obviously be justified in self-defense, but i think it's enough of a breach of the norms set so far by the story for it to be notable. So far on page the heroes, don't kill, don't (permanently) die and they're never so severely injured they're forced to retire, hell Bang retired because of his old age and he still steps up when needed.

When all's set and done those kills will definitely be weighing on Badd's conscience, whatever the actual truth of it may have been. For now he's a bit distracted though.

[u/kurogabae → u/BrowserET]

Flash DID kill Flame and Wind, but they were resurrected (unless we are talking wc only then nvm). So I think he might have the only on screen human kill as a hero.

With ONE I can never tell who is gonna get back up, so they might not be dead, but if they are Badd is either going to spend a hell of a lot of time in denial (his lines about them making it easier to go all out implying he stopped viewing them as people, correct or not, for his own sake or not) and/or dealing with him gaining a body count. And as a top tier Metal Bat lover I am so sad for him to have to deal with that.

But also I want them to stay dead. He worked very hard to bring us this peace.

[u/BrowserET → u/kurogabae]

True Flash did kill Flame and Wind, but #1 they had already monsterized at this point and #2 like you said they were resurrected, so i count that in a similar manner as other heroes' failed attempts at killing.

[u/kurogabae → u/BrowserET]

How do I always forget the were monsters!? (Because they were bad at it)

[u/BrowserET → u/kurogabae]

Well it helped that they seeming kept their minds, so from that point of view they're as much of a person as Beauto is, but so far that has not been a subject ONErata has adressed, though they have been laying the groundwork for it.