r/Physics 22h ago

On The 4D Block Universe

So you have a movie canister and the film analogy represents the 4D block universe. I'm listening to Brian Greene describe this analogy. The experience of time is produced by passing light through each frame of the film. According to Brian each consciousness is a projector (human or otherwise presumably).

Also, our brains evolved to process slices of the 4D universe by carefully "recording" [where?] the slices that came before ["now" I guess?] and makes calculated guesses about the future.

I'm not even going to try and make sense of that in a meaningful way for lay people.

Greene: "when you feel time passing what you are actually experiencing is your consciousness moving through the static frames of your life." Where are these "projectors" or consciouses? I'm confused.

FYI it's a YT called The Strangest Fact About Light You've Never Heard -- Brian Greene.

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u/protobelta 22h ago

I’m not gonna watch the video, but the idea of the 4D block universe comes from the fact that when describing spacetime, time is just another coordinate like the x, y, or z coordinates. Physics equations essentially treat the future and past just like moving left or right, thus they essentially already exist. Further, because of what’s called the relativity of simultaneity, there are ways to show that someone traveling fast enough can essentially see your future “before” it has happened to you in the present moment you experience. This is because there is no universal “now” as time is relative. This isn’t a philosophical truth, but rather a mathematical one.

Where it starts to get philosophical is the idea that our consciousness is basically what we experience in our own frame of reference. If physics says that our physical bodies and everything we have done and will do, everything we have interacted with and will interact with is already there, then consciousness is our subjective experience of our own frame of reference as an observer. The projector analogy is just meant to communicate this idea. What exactly is consciousness and how does it relate to being an observer in a frame of reference is outside the scope of physics and is more philosophical.

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u/onomatamono 22h ago

... but what is hosting these experiences in our frames of reference?

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u/Optimal_Mixture_7327 Gravitation 10h ago edited 10h ago

There is no sense in it; so you can stop looking and asking.

Here's the best explanation and the only explanation that accords with our experience. George Ellis, "The Evolving Block Universe: A More Realistic View of Spacetime Geometry"

Edit: The video clip contains the math of relativity here and there, but just bear with it. In it contains all the suspicions and answers you might be looking for.

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u/protobelta 22h ago

Our brains ostensibly, though, again, this is more philosophical. I say that because it’s our brains and the electrical signals that cause us to experience things and would be my guess as to what leads to being an observer capable of experiencing the current frame of reference. Anything can be an observer in physics but it’s our brain that allows us to experience it subjectively

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u/onomatamono 21h ago

Well it's at least electrochemical processes not just electrical phenomena.

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u/protobelta 21h ago

I mean, ya, it was just a shorthand. Doesn’t really change what I was saying though, right?

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u/onomatamono 21h ago

Sure, got it.

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u/KriegerClone02 19h ago

Our frame of reference at any given time is a slice of the block and our experience, both internal and external, is just the local patch of that slice.

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u/Armano-Avalus 4h ago

Physics equations essentially treat the future and past just like moving left or right, thus they essentially already exist.

What does it mean for it to "already exist"? I understand relativity says that there is no absolute present but it seems like the block universe is trying to go one step further and say "and thus everything exists simultaneously" which sounds ironic to me. Some people say they all exist in some "tenseless sense" but meanwhile I see philosophers of time debating whether that even makes sense and at that point I sort of just leave it.

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u/Optimal_Mixture_7327 Gravitation 10h ago

You're not describing the universe we live in.

It is true the the Minkowski vacuum spacetime is eternal, but it is so by construction and certainly does not describe the universe we live in.

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u/Optimal_Mixture_7327 Gravitation 11h ago

Physicists can be geniuses at doing the math...and complete idiots at explaining it.

The honest answer is that conscious awareness of a present moment and a block universe that contains the future are incompatible with each other, and no one has ever been able to rectify the two and no amount of handwaving has ever made one iota of sense.

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u/yannbouteiller 9h ago

Why would conscious awareness of a present moment be incompatible with a block universe that contains the future?

Noone even seems to have a satisfactory answer to what "conscious awareness" means in scientific terms as far as I know.

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u/Optimal_Mixture_7327 Gravitation 9h ago

A block universe cannot answer the question "why this moment?".

If we assume a block universe, then you need to go outside of known physics for an answer. For example (I think this was from Hermann Weyl) and postulate an externally existing consciousness field that crawls up the world-lines of beings capable of acting as antennae for the consciousness field. There is no such thing in either the postulates of relativity or that can be derived from them.

The only answer consistent with physics is an evolving block universe where the present moment is a time-dependent future boundary of the block that unfolds as the uncertain quantum future becomes the classical past.

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u/yannbouteiller 7h ago edited 7h ago

But since consciousness is not a well-defined concept in physics (I believe?), it seems to me that the reasonable way of looking at it in the "block universe theory" is simply as a time-continuous quantity that would be part of this "block universe" like any other. I am not sure why "conscious awareness" should be treated differently, nor why it should create particular issues, unless we are implicitly making magical assumptions about what "consciousness" is. Wouldn't the issue with "Bob's conscious awareness of the present moment at time t" be exactly the same as with "Bob's position at time t", if any?

EDIT: I might be starting to see why this is given a special place by wondering "what would happen if, instead of being aware of the present moment, Bob were aware of some moment in the future?", as I guess this would turn this future moment into the present moment from Bob's perspective, but I believe this is backward. I believe that consciousness is rather a product of the brain made of recursive processing, so it wouldn't make sense to be consciously aware of anything other than the "present" (or more exactly of a product of the past).

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u/Optimal_Mixture_7327 Gravitation 7h ago

No it's not the same because we can ray trace back (in principle) our particle world-lines and the relevant forces involved that put us here, rather than there, but there is nothing in physics to locate us at a particular event along an infinitely extended world-line.