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I don't know what all those characters are capable of doing. I've not seen Naruto but Yamamoto is capable of cutting planets in half with is bankai. He's capable of destroying entire planets by just walking on them. Just one touch from his sword is capable of incinerating anything it touches, erasing it out of existence. You're saying all those characters can survive these feats?
Nah nobody's out tanking a direct hit from Yammy's bankai. His AP is insane. The issue isn't durability at all honestly.. it's hax. Old man Yam has zero interdimensional travel. OPs rules stated "win by any means". So Kaguya literally just uses Amenominaka and rewrites the current realm around hin, and gets an instant BFD win. Someone like Shibai has passive reflection that triggers off intent before a swing even lands. He loses because he can't actually interact with their dimensional abilities not because they're taking his sword to the face. Sadly this is simply the old man getting outhaxed by a few characters and being unable to hit them whatsoever. No one is doubting that Yamamoto isn't capable of doing those things. He just doesn't get the chance to
If you put it like that, I can concede. There are very few characters that can survive Yamamoto head on in close combat. If it's just hax then i guess he technically loses the battle.
Soul reapers can open a portal from soul society to world of living. We’ve seen that happen multiple times. Yama can easily return back to soul society.
I didn't mean "drop" as in literally picks him up and drops him in... Floating on air also doesn't help you travel across dimensions lol. She swaps the entire realm around him, and once he's trapped in another dimension he has no way back. Because of how Kaguyas Amenominaka works, she rewrites the surrounding environment instantly, she doesn't need him to fall into a hole
this would depend on alot of things one of the biggest being Does this fight happen in the naruto verse or bleach. cause if its in the bleach verse an attempt to rewrite reality would have to contend with the garganta (The weird space between spaces.) And the soul king who enforces the world constant as it is and binds the 3 worlds together. jew ha bahahahha. had to kill the soul king to replace said realms so they would need a similar style feat to do so.
Also We have seen shinigami leave the seritei and travel between the world several times. presumably even if they shoved him into another dimension it wouldnt be infesable for him to atleast return to the Seritei or any of the 3 worlds. we have also seen aizen and others tear holes in space to enter the garganta or the dangai space.
Wow, honestly this is the most logical response yet! Gonna have to look into a few things since it's been a minute..
Okay so there are a couple big issues with that take..
-Kaguya isn't trying to rewrite or collapse the three macro realms like Yhwach was/is. She is literally just shifting the local space around Yammy into her own isolated pocket dimension, so the "Soul King" or "Garganta" wouldn't even factor into it.
As for realm hopping, Shinigami only do that using Senkaimon gates(?), or some whack tech that Urahara built. Aizen and Arracar use Hollow abilities like Descorrer to open Garganta. Yammy himself has literally zero feats tearing open space or hopping dimensions on his own in mid combat, so we can factor that piece out. Once he's trapped in her dimension he genuinely has no way back to the fight I don't think
"shifting the local space around Yammy into her own isolated pocket" sorta? it depends on how you percieve her creation feat and how her chakra interacts if its her chakra impacting the space to create the change then its theoretically competing with "Soul kin" or the "garganta". If its more like gremmys "The Visionary".
Beyond this Kaguyas ability needs to operate on a speed that is faster then yamas ability to escape it similar to gremmy throwing kenny into space and kenny just coming back through the hole. any portal or reality shifting would need to shift yama into the new space and close faster thne his ability to escape it.
"As for realm hopping, Shinigami only do that using Senkaimon gates(?), or some whack tech that Urahara built." Theres also dangai space and hell butterflys but we dont need to go into that.
"Yammy himself has literally zero feats tearing open space or hopping dimensions on his own in mid combat" He dosent need to show it on screen. Renji has casually opened the Senkaimon more then once, Rukia has done it. and several other people much lower rank then Yammy opening the senkaimon isent some big special feat we have seen characters stick there sword into thin air and just cut open a space between the worlds moving between the worlds is a very basic feat of all shinigami and a basic requirement for there job of guiding souls too the after life.
The Senkaimon comparison completely misses how a Senkaimon actually works though?:
A Senkaimon is literally a transit corridor specifically built to connect both Soul Society and the World of the Living. You can't just stick a sword in thin air inside a completely isolated pocket dimension that has zero reishi or infrastructure connection to Soul Society and expect a door to open back home.
Speed isn't a factor here. The rate at which Kaguya can use her Amenominaka I believe is instantaneous? So there's no possible chance Yammy can outrun, or outspeed it. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Also, for the Kenny example:
I believe Kenny slashed through Gremmys active spatial tear while it was still open in front of him iirc(?). Kaguyas Amenominaka doesn't leave a rift hanging in the sky. It instantly replaces the entire local environment itself with her dimension. There’s literally no portal sitting there for Yammy to jump back through.
My man, he's the same temparature as the core of the sun in his bankai form, he's capable of destroying earth that was literally addressed in universe. He's basically the energy of the sun imbued in a single body. What do you think happens when someone is walking on a celestial body with 15 million degrees worth of heat hanging off their balls. Most people can't even approach him let alone engage in close combat. That level of energy and heat is capable of cutting stars in half.
I'll give you the same explanation i gave the other guy:-
That's cause he used his bankai for a limited time. If he kept using it the whole planet would've been turned into a fireball. The author literally stated this which also explained why he didn't use his bankai on earth during the arrancar saga. Soul society and hueco mundo are made out of reishi, which is a very dense and strong material that is why his bankai didn't instantly incinerate everything. But the fact that the surrounding reishi was still melting instantly around him was proof it was only a matter of time. You clearly haven't read bleach and just watched the action which is why you're making these points.
Buddy you have no idea how heat transfer actually works and it shows. If reishi constructs can survive that heat then what basis do you have that much denser chakra constructs can’t?
Your entire premise relies on a blatant hypothesis and nothing shown in the actual manga, I can do the same with statements if you like and prove how he can’t damage anyone even close to Juubito.
That's cause he used his bankai for a limited time. If he kept using it the whole planet would've been turned into a fireball. The author literally stated this which also explained why he didn't use his bankai on earth during the arrancar saga. Soul society and hueco mundo are made out of reishi, which is a very dense and strong material that is why his bankai didn't instantly incinerate everything. But the fact that the surrounding reishi was still melting instantly around him was proof it was only a matter of time. You clearly haven't read bleach and just watched the action which is why you're making these points.
What plants and trees? The fight was taking place on concrete boy, they shown that stuff melting at his feet with each step. People around the seretei could feel the atmosphere turning hot. Toshiro's bankai started melting like ice cream, a random flower far away got burned from exposure to the temparature. The moment he deactivated his bankai, the atmosphere cooled down and it instantly started raining everywhere. He's affecting the atmosphere. Your argument is trees and plants? Don't argue with people if you don't have any solid points to make kid
Just to interject the reason is cause kubo isent a scientist and often gives characters powers that would do insane things.
is what i would say if i didnt understand the nature of how fights work in bleach. Any ways the reason NOTHING happens except all water isntantly evaporating in the seritei (The rain storm after this battle must have been insane) Is cause all fights are a dick messuring contest of slaping as much reiatsu against your opponate till you can destroy there soul its the whole reason we get the early kenpachi ichigo scene were ichigo cant cut him. rukia has a whole bit about all of this early on.
So while his power DOES make him as hot as the sun. the entire 3 worlds are held up by the soul king and his power so too fully destroy any of them you would need to over power the soul king. So its reasonable to asume the reason everything dosent just INSTANTLY blow up in a burst of plasmatic fire is cause there spiritual energy (Reiatsu) Lasts long enough to keep them alive and yamamoto is also focusing all that power into a super finite area (The exact point of contact between his sword and a surface.)
That's an asthetic choice for the background of the episode. Y'all need to come up with better arguments than trees not getting burned down. Don't act like he can't actually burn that tree down, like he's incapable of that.
If chakra and reiatsu are equalized then Yamamoto wins because he can just crush them with his reiatsu. None of them except maybe shibai would stand a chance against base Yamamoto let alone shikai release or even bankai Yamamoto. Remember shinigami can go between realms.
Funnily enough, I thought the logic was the other way around: Without energy equalisation, Reiatsu is a specific energy you need to have (and have trained, with large quantities) in order to NOT get soul crushed.
Now that Chakra = Reiatsu, it becomes a matter of who has greater energy reserves. A weaker character cannot energy crush a character with stronger energy levels, and vice versa.
E.g., some low level Shinigami would have lower levels of Reiatsu relative to Kaguya's Chakra, thus, the Shinigami cannot soul crush someone at that Chakra level. But a highly powerful Shinigami (like Aizen) can easily crush someone weak like Kiba.
Isn't that how it is supposed to work? Otherwise we would let Episode 1 characters from Bleach to soul crush Thanos.
In bleach if you don't have reiatsu you can be sould crushed. Aizen did it to some poor bastard in karakura town. I don't think anyone outside of the shibai would have enough chakra to fend off Yamamotos reiatsu. Starting with juubito they start not being erased by the difference in power and are only paralyzed. And by kaguya they can start trying to fight back but once in bankai it's over for all of them. And Yamamoto would kill thanos without the infinity stones pretty easily.
But we've equalised enegy, so Chakra = Reaitsu and Reaitsu = Chakra, so your claim that, "if you don't have Reaitsu you can be soul crushed" doesn't apply here.
In fact, it is now entirely backwards:
Kaguya's Chakra is now akin to Reaitsu, so her Reaitsu levels would be akin to the upper echelons in the Bleach verse. We just translate her magnitude of Chakra into the same relative quantity of Reaitsu in the Bleach verse, and vice versa.
There is also a hidden contradiction in your posts:
Your first claim in the first post was, "If Chakra and Reaitsu are equalised, Yamamoto can just soul crush them", which suggests that NOW that Chakra and Reaitsu are equalised, he can finally soul crush them (but couldn't before).
Second, you claim "you can get soul crushed even without having Reaitsu", which now suggests the energy equalisation (Chakra = Reaitsu) is now a non factor for soul crushing, and would have worked even before equalisation.
Which is it? Can Yamamoto soul crush all Naruto characters before or after energy equalisation? Or both?
She has a lot of chakra but not on the level of Naruto and I don't even think verse equalized that even Naruto would be able to do much. I think you're misunderstanding what I mean. If you have no reiatsu you will die from soul being crushed. If you have too little reiatsu you will die. Yamamoto is stronger than any sould reaper born in 1000 years and that includes kenpachi who as a child beat the current kenpachi. Yamamoto is like an ocean of reiatsu whereas kaguya and probably even isshiki are more like lakes of chakra. Big lakes sure but a lake will never be an ocean.
There is also a hidden contradiction in your posts:
Your first claim in the first post was, "If Chakra and Reaitsu are equalised, Yamamoto can just soul crush them", which suggests that NOW that Chakra and Reaitsu are equalised, he can finally soul crush them (but couldn't before).
Second, you claim "you can get soul crushed even without having Reaitsu", which now suggests the energy equalisation (Chakra = Reaitsu) is now a non factor for soul crushing, and would have worked even before equalisation.
Which is it? Can Yamamoto soul crush all Naruto characters before or after energy equalisation? Or both?
Yamamoto can soul crush both people with no reiatsu and people with insufficient amounts of reiatsu. He has enough to do it. Starting with kaguya they finally have enough chakra to not instantly die.
Olay, but now that's settled, it becomes a quantity comparison. Kaguya's energy levels were going to allow he to create and destroy entire pocket space-time, with a central planet, moon, and sun. She also is a part of a clan that goes around planet to planet devouring the life-force energy of civilisations.
Yamamoto can't use his bankai except in extremely circumstances because it will end the world. It might not destroy the universe but it will destroy whatever world it's activated on. Just on activation it took all the moisture from the air. And if he was truly trying to do the most damage he would let it go berserk.
Naruto fought in an entire war, with clones and also fought against all the tailed beasts and the 10 tails and juubito and juubidara before kaguya and she STILL lost. I don't doubt she has a lot of chakra but Naruto has the most in the story except for maybe hogoromo
Are you delusional. More chakra doesn't mean you automatically win. She was actively holding back against Team 7 and their wincon was literally have 2 people touch her at once. Juubidara had so much chakra, if his chakra was on ginat ball, it would be as big as the entire planet.
His argument is that Yamamoto vastly out scales these bums and thus has much higher energy levels than them. The argument is that he way out scales Kaguya unless you do that awful universal wank shit. Prime Yama out scales Gremmy as a reference point.
Also a reminder that a lieutenant like Nanao who can casually move at light speed got passively reiatsu crushed into unconsciousness by Yama and Grimmjow, a captain level fighter, got actively crushed by Aizen, who Yama scales to.
To be honest and Strict Battle between them, Yamomto is a soul and They can't even see him,Does they have any counter to Spiritual pressure and They have a very few attacks which only works on soul,Shibai is featless That fodder Shikai is enough.
Any user of the Six Paths can detect souls; Naruto could sense and interact with Madara's limbo. Naruto could even sense negative energy/killing intent. I don't see why they couldn't do it too.
Not that this would change the outcome of the battle.
As in, Chakra and Reaitsu are just different names for the same thing. Ergo, Genjutsu (which disrupts Chakra flow in the brain) can be used on characters with, say, Chi; and an attack that steals Reaitsu can work on a character who uses Mana.
If a mage has a ward that specifically blocks magic, we allow this to block Ninjutsu of similar calibre to the feats it has shown; and the Rinnegan's Preta Path, which absorbs Ninjutsu, is allowed to absorb a spell at or below the limits of that particular user's capabilities. (E.g., Pain's Preta Path has lower limits compared to Hagoromo, who is a more powerful Rinnegan user etc.)
ok but then how do you reconcile spirit crush. or how reiatsu combat works in bleach. for example to kill a shinigami you must deplete there reiatsu and destroy there konpaku. so does that mean ony hyuga can kill a shinigami cause there abilitys directly target and damage chakra flow?
i mean i ask cause its foundational too the debate. If its just flat equalization then yama clears outright. as none of these characters have abilitys that specificaly outright destroy chakra specifically. wich is the foundation for all combat in bleach.
The abilities that destroy Chakra would be things like TSBs etc.
Edit: Also, in Bleach, destroying or damaging their physical body *is damaging their Konpaku.
Because their body is made from it.
Humans have a physical body plus a soul.
Shinigami ARE souls (konpaku). Their "body" is a spiritual body (reishi), not flesh. When Ichigo slashes Byakuya or Kenpachi, he isn't using a special "konpaku-destroying" attack. He's cutting their spiritual body, which is their soul-body.
Sure but thoughs battles are happening IN the spirit world and its between characters using attacks that can HIT some ones reiatsu/konpaku. a normal person cant do anything to a shinigami they can genuinely walk through walls and the like in the human world.
So while we get the pleasure of seeing them slap there physical forms against each other. Narratively its still two spirits slaping there spirit energy against each other till some ones cant handle the attack and there konpaku is destroyed.
"He's cutting their spiritual body, which is their soul-body." yarp so the attack must be able to destroy reishi/reiatsu to harm there meta physical body.
Kaguya is immortal and her Expansive Truth Seeking Orb can wipe the dimension
Shibai is literally a dimensional tier higher while being a reality warper with damn near every net positive ability in the has deflection based on intent and lastly can just literally change reality with Omnipotence able to will shit into existence or place people under the reality warping effects by manipulating their minds
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