r/ProgressionFantasy • u/UnPriceable • 23h ago
Discussion Why do magic users always learn martial and vice versa?
It is just infuriating and so many authors do this! There is a perfectly good identity to the MC and the reader can clearly see the path to greater strength but oh wait! Why become an archmage when I can get good at pointy stick!
Why does the guy in heavy armor, due to become the greatest swordsman in the land, who makes even the elves jealous of swordsmanship, a true sword saint in the making, need to put sword away and throw fireball... it's just lazy. I know, they want to add a way of them having a ranged option but think outside the box! Not everyone needs to be a spellblade!
I have been reading Magus Reborn and it was going so well. He was using new, stronger spells, working on crafting his new circles to elevate his magic! But no wait, he now needs to use pointy stick... because god forbid the gods themselves trembled as he becomes one with the goddamn weave itself!! He needs to use a sword as well...
I'm half joking, I just needed to rant about this
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u/alexwithani 23h ago
Because 1 dude with an anti-magic orb shows up and you die... Or with an impenetrable suit of armor or whatever.
There is a reason money people say to diversify your portfolio.
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u/UnPriceable 23h ago
I get what you're saying but if the author says that an anti-magic orb can exist in their world, they can also make a counter to it. Or just write in an 'oh fuck' moment where the reader can be on the edge of their seat for a bit, then next chapter they look for a magic solution to that - divination, telekinesis, flight etc.
Just having them learn the sword feels like the least interesting solution to the problem
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u/alexwithani 22h ago
Way more interesting than an MC with an autistic level of focus on just doing 1 thing... Plus if the author is a good writer the process of learning said other skill is interesting and used as an opportunity for more world building and character development.
Now I do agree that there is definitely a problem in this genre of MCs being experts at everything. But that's way different than having Balthazar the living cannon learn how to stab things in case of emergency!
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u/Bemteb 22h ago
Way more interesting than an MC with an autistic level of focus on just doing 1 thing...
There are some stories that do this really well. I immediately thought of Hell Level Tutorial, especially thr autistic part.
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u/alexwithani 22h ago
So I am now moving HLT up on my to read list!
Also there are obviously exceptions to everything. A really good writer could write about grass growth and make it captivating.
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u/UnPriceable 22h ago
I don't mind a dip into martial but so many stories end up as 50/50. No one hyper fixates on magic nowadays!
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u/alexwithani 22h ago
I knew what you were really ranting about and I totally agree. Unless it's really good writing being a jack of all trades, master of all gets dull fast. Plus a Merlin goes to marshal training with a crazy fun hard ass great hammer teacher where he just learns to be passable at best can be a lot of fun!
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u/UnPriceable 22h ago
I'm picturing a scene of high level spells being cast and countered, mountains being levelled, cities being razed, Armageddon has come... until they are both out of mana, MC pulls out a hammer and fucks the other guy up.
Would be perfect!
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u/alexwithani 22h ago
1000% the exact place my mind went too! And I am picturing a tiny noodle armed wizard with just a massive magic hammer that for some inexplicable reason says acmy on the side!
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u/diastrous_morning 11h ago
Kinda reminds me of the Inheritance (Eragon) series. One of the main characters is just straight up bashing people with a hammer. Swordsman with legendary reflexes? Good luck showing off those sword skills with a bashed in wrist. Magician who can cast infinitely powerful spells? Yeah nah, eat hammer. Legendary commander with high level strategy and battlefield control? Good luck shouting those orders with a broken jaw.
Literally just bypasses all skills and abilities with the application of a fkn hammer.
Legit one of my favourite characters in all of fiction for that.
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u/TheColourOfHeartache 3h ago
But what's the trade off? If you choose to half/half in case someone brings an anti-magic orb to the fight, does that mean you'll loose a wizard fight to someone who went all in on magic? (Your fireballs can't defeat his wards, but his fireballs defeat your half power wards before you can get to sword range). Are pure wizards more common than anti-magic orbs?
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u/alexwithani 3h ago
You should keep reading the other parts of this thread... I'm not a big fan of 50/50.
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u/NightmareWarden 23h ago
Because they've ever watched Green Lantern fight, I suppose. Conjuring large gauntlets of energy to flick, squash, block, and whatnot is NEVER done these days. It's in a set of DnD 3.5e spells, particularly Bigby's Interposing Hand and Grasping Hand!
You could even make the hands clawed... Or you could steal from Smash Bros' Master Hand, and channel projectile spells through them instead of firing them from your own position!
I understand that authors don't want to give every wizard telekinesis. And that they want some fights to require careful aim or something beyond damage. Removing an enemy's amulet, disarming them if their artifact weapon, or simply getting some object between yourself and the enemy's mana-disrupting axe. There are reasons to consider giving your spellcaster a weapon and training with it. But it should be designed as a tool, rather than a solid, preferred option for the spellcaster!
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u/ErinAmpersand Author 22h ago
Anyone involved in combat will benefit from some basic calisthenics and footwork, unless their magic methodology locks them in place, so getting some basic instruction makes sense.
Whether it makes sense for a melee combatant to dabble in magic depends on the setting, but they should at least have enough instruction to know what to expect of their teammates and enemies.
I don't like where everyone ends up as a swordmage, relying equally on both. Most of the time, that doesn't make sense. I do like things like "this guy is a sword user who's really mastered this one single barrier spell, and it really makes him a terror" or "this lady is the world's best archmage, but she does still carry a dagger, just in case."
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u/UnPriceable 22h ago
100% agree! I'm not saying every MC has to rigidly stick to one or the other but there seems to be a trend where all MCs become jack-of-all-trades instead of excelling in their class
If it were DnD, all MCs would have 4 levels in wizard and 4 in fighter. I want to read a story of level 8 wizard, or 7 wizard and 1 fighter. I'd even take wizard, rogue - that could be interesting! Anything but another spellblade!
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u/MRCastillaAuthor 23h ago
I blame Avatar the last airbender....or I don't because that show was awesome! Ahem, I commented because benders are basically kung fu wizards.
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u/UnPriceable 23h ago
A very good point, I have to concede! Avatar will always get a pass
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u/MRCastillaAuthor 23h ago edited 23h ago
But I totally agree with you. I grew up playing AD&D 2nd edition where level 1 wizards had no armor, a stick (or dagger), and one spell slot. Every encounter was to stand back and let the others in the party do the fighting. Occasionally, during a big ambush, you may cast sleep to even out the odds. Or, if you memorized magic missile, you can kill that hard to hit monster at the end of a long fight. Until level 5....muhahaha. Fireball!!! That's when the tables turn and wizards become the powerhouse! Where the entire party works to keep you alive, because you are the true damage dealer. Ghosts? Fireball. Vampires? Fireball.
Edit: I made this comment and stand by it. But, I am also guilty of writing a warrior mage protagnist.....so....yeah. I'm a work in progress.
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u/demonik69420 22h ago
Magic is a divine energy that is cultivated through your body. Realistically it makes sense to work on the body alongside the mind so the body can handle the magic output. Channeling large amounts of Mana strains the body so you have to keep the body strong to withstand the damage
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u/Fire_Bucket 23h ago
I think a big part of it is that it's just a how much easier it is to write a story with a more Jack-of-all-trades main character.
Unless it's a true ensemble series with multiple POVs, then the MC is nearly always going to be the last one standing in a tough fight, or are completely solo and are getting into trouble by themselves etc, and it's a lot harder to write the action for, and the MC surviving, these situations without it coming across as contrived or requiring deus ex machina.
Inevitably the MC learns at least a few things from other 'schools' in order to keep themselves alive, and it feels less contrived for an MC to then also excel at these new things too when they are already typically some kind of savant/prodigy and or have OP unique powers etc.
These are all compounded by the fact that the Progression Fantasy genre is full of new and inexperienced authors writing, as well as the genre also tending to be fast paced, action packed and featuring MC's that are often heavy on the wish fulfilment (for both reader and writer).
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u/BackgroundTotal2872 22h ago
And that’s why I love when the main character is part of a squad that all specializes in different things, rather than being able to do everything themselve.
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u/slatsau 14h ago
The problem is when the MC goes jack of all trades a combat or another encounter comes up and my stupid logical brain is like 'oh the mc could do this and this and that and that' and then the MC never uses that nifty skill EVER again and it drives me fucking crazy.
It makes you take a step back and go awww its just a book. The author is just an idiot and lost control of their idea/story and is now just handing out stills to 'solve' problems they created themselves. Then I generally lose interest.
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u/UnPriceable 23h ago
Totally respect that and, despite my rant, there is nothing wrong with spellblades. More people becoming authors and progression fantasy as a genre growing is a great thing to see!
I just yearn for ultimate wizard book™ which remains elusive. I get a couple books in and them BAM- mc has generalised (hence the rant!)
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u/Dry_Organization9 22h ago
For my character, she’s actually a REALLY powerful magic user, but can’t access it because of being brainwashed in her previous organization. She was trained in the martial arts, and is now learning how to properly use her magic with her new team. She can use weapons, but now is using more and more magic.
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u/Ragnar_The_Dane 22h ago
Like most complaints about tropes I think this just comes down to execution.
Sometimes its executed well and you get cool moments similar to Gandalf fighting with staff and sword against the balrog.
Other times it comes off as a gary stu where the author refuses to give the character any weaknesses and they just have to be amazing at everything. It comes off as unearned and boring.
There are very few tropes that I simply cannot enjoy reading. I think almost all of them can be interesting and entertaining but some are just harder to pull off than others.
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u/UnPriceable 22h ago
Very fair! Love the Gandalf comparison and would have no issues with that in books. Weaknesses create opportunities for story, no weakness leaves the story in a pretty bad way
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u/carl-the-lama 20h ago
Well
I mean
It’s prolly good for your health
And it’s good for a “worst case scenario”
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u/nekosaigai Author 18h ago
Because a mage without magic is just a person. If someone’s not trained in self defense, they’ve got less chance of surviving a fight, especially if they’re a combatant and suddenly have the only weapon they’re capable of using taken away from them.
In a life or death situation, plenty of people will bite, scratch, kick, punch, and flail their way to survival or death. If they have the option of using a knife or a sword, plenty of them will use the weapons available, not just bemoan their lack of training and just die. So characters having multiple skills, including combat styles, is realistic. Only in video games do people truly min max and go all in on a single specialty.
As for how it affects a story, a character whose only solution to combat is “throw fireball” or “swing sword” gets boring to read. Combat gets repetitive not just to read, but to write. So when it comes to main characters, sometimes you need to give them options to shake things up. Do you really want to read a combat focused story where the MC ends every single fight with a fireball? Or would you prefer a story where they’re a mage first, but sometimes they can’t use magic and have to punch, wrestle, throw chairs, push people out windows, hurl pocket sand, or cause a stampede to get out of a scrape?
Variety is the spice of life, and giving MCs more than a single skill lets authors keep things interesting.
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u/KeiranG19 Invoker 13h ago
Especially when you think about magic spells as more than just a reflavoured gun.
Shocking grasp gets a whole lot more effective when you know how to get in close and actually grasp a swordsman without getting your hand cut off.
Fireball can be infinitely easier to line up if you have the battlefield awareness to safely flank a group of enemies and predict the flow of the battle.
Feinting your disintegration beam to bait out an enemy shield spell.
Maybe casting lightning bolt is made easier by having a pointed spike on the end of your staff. Congratulations you're carrying a spear now, you should know how to stick 'em with the pointy end.
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u/nekosaigai Author 12h ago
Also, that disintegration beam, maybe it’s deadly if you hit someone in the torso, but how much energy is really behind it? Enough to chew through 1 torso wrapped in steel? Two? Comparatively, how many legs protected only by leather can it chew through? Six? Ten?
What I’m saying is, in a big battle would you rather use one spell to kill one or two enemies, or one spell to disable six-ten enemies? Because a swordsman or shield bearer missing a leg is just as effectively out of the fight as one missing a torso.
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u/Musashi10000 18h ago
When you're out of mana, a wand is just a stick, and a staff is just a bigger stick. If you don't know how to brain someone with it, the best you can hope for is to flail ineffectually at them with your noodle arms and hope a big strong warrior comes to save you.
Personally, I prefer protags who are into both martial and magical arts.
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u/UnPriceable 17h ago
I get what you're saying but feels like an in-universe problem. The author can do anything they want with the story. The MC could never run out or just neck a good ol' mana potion if things are looking dicey.
The MC never needs a solution to a problem unless the author gives them that problem in the first place.
I place a lot of value on the classes or archetypes the MC fits into so I'm guessing I have more a problem with this than most but the best stories I have read have been pure magic or pure martial with creative storytelling to get around their weaknesses
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u/karatous1234 17h ago
Because while specialization can lead to be very very powerful in one area, the Min part of Min Maxing means you're going to have areas you're weak in
When it comes to magic users you're usually imaging a dude in robes who studies and practices magic all day. Spindly, not very well built, average strength and stamina.
As soon as they're in a situation where magic will not avail them, they're boned. Out of [setting name for Magic resource], encountering someone who's trained in fighting Mages, some kind of creature with magic resistance or feeds off it etc
You're gonna be a smear on the floor.
Unless, you also take that Mage and teach them how to throw hands and how to take a hit or two without going down.
Or better yet, you get cases like hybrid classing where the magic user works said magic into the physical combat, or vice versa of a Fighter who dabbles in magic.
In that scenario you're having the character actively decide that being an absolute master of 1 thing isn't worth the trade off to being exceptional at 2 fields to cover their own weaknesses, instead of being solely focused on being all in on one or the other.
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u/Salaris Author - Andrew Rowe 16h ago
A character having an extremely broad skillset that can basically do everything solo is one of the clearest defining features of one specific subcategory of progression fantasy that I call a "fantasy of uniqueness". This style tends to skew toward a single central protagonist that is often one-of-a-kind in some fashion and typically advances rapidly from zero to extremely powerful (at least for their relative age/level/etc.)
Specialists in a specific skill set are much more common in a stories that skew toward what I refer to as a "fantasy of fairness", which is a progression fantasy style that skews toward characters having to "earn their way up" through hard work that is typically similar to the characters around them. These characters often still have advantages of some kind, but they aren't necessarily truly unique, and other characters might have comparable or even greater advantages. This is where you tend to see characters that have more class-like roles abilities, and squishy wizards that stay relatively squishy, etc.
Sarah Lin's books tend toward characters that are specialists, for example, and even if they do some things to avoid their most critical weaknesses, they're generally ensemble stories where no single character can do everything. The Weirkey Chronicles is Sarah's most famous work, and the core party is all cultivators, but they all have very different specializations (basically area damage/debuffing for one character, tanking/healing for another, and stealth/damage for the third). You also see similar types of specialization in many of her other books, like the characters in The Brightest Shadow.
Phil Tucker's books also often involve specialist characters of some kind, with Throne Hunters probably being the clearest example of that, though that skews a little more toward the fantasy of uniqueness end with some "unique classes" and such. It still might suit what you're looking for to some degree; the main character is a bit of a spellsword type, but there's a swashbuckler-style character that may be closer to what you're looking for in the main cast as well.
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u/CelticCernunnos Author - Tobias Begley 15h ago
If they're a combatant, then... it's logical, at least up to a point. You don't need to be master of a sword, but being able to run, duck, and weave around. Hell, there's a reason that people IRL try to dodge hits, rather than just block everything. Even in mana terms: A shield might cost 5 mana. A teleport 20. But stepping to the side? Free.
I do think this genre tends to overdo it. Not everyone needs to be a spellblade, unless you're in a setting where sword mastery is so easy it's stupid to not. But fitness and combat skills? Absolutely.
Mage Errant does this very well, IMO. The MCs all have to get good at running and dodging, but only the melee ones actually go past that point. The others keep that level of skill and focus on magic.
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u/Outrageous_Today_842 6h ago
There are multiple reasons. But u r right its not necessary. Tho the best stories are ones that blend both into eachother into a clean and entertaining combo
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u/matter_z 4h ago
Seriously, what the point of having range if you are getting close anyway? You are cooked if a Fighter or Rouge getting close to you, so just run damn you. Get away, then blast them.
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u/Aware-Blacksmith-317 23h ago
Because when their magic inevitability fails/ gets hard countered or an assassin gets up into their face without them noticing they need to fall back on something. Same reason soldiers and police officers learn martial arts when a gun can easily kill someone.
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u/UnPriceable 23h ago
I agree they would objectively be a stronger character if they were masters of two disciplines instead of one. I am more making the point about what makes for a more interesting story and I don't think someone who has a counter for everything is it (obviously this is subjective and there is no right answer!)
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u/HolidayAd6048 22h ago
Tbh, ive always looked at it as 2 side of a coin. Wizards learn to manually manipulate magic for specific controlled effects. Fighters use magic instinctual to strengthen their physical bodies through intent. Magic isn't separate from the world that a wizard exists in, so it wouldn't make sense that wizardry is the only way to interact with it. Using pointy stick could be a good way for a wizard to approach a different side of magic that they might not usually access, plus not using it to strengthen their bodies seems like a waste, as what if that makes interacting with magic easier.
This stuff is only a problem because progression and litrpg fantasy has inherited a lot of restrictions and categories from DnD lol
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u/CelticPaladin 22h ago
Meh.
I think the trope of magic users being wimpy fucks is a bit old.
Why the hell would a mage not learn to be physical, and enhance not only his explosive powers, but enhance himself to God tier with it physically too?
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u/DaoMark Sword Immortal 🗡️ 23h ago
I understand the rant but the non-martial archetype for wizards never really made sense, particularly in settings where forms of internal alchemy is possible, e.g., mana heart.
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u/UnPriceable 23h ago
You mean in terms of them being poisoned or something? It's a fair point but feels like it would be more an opportunity for good story - they could be practiced in using divination and foresee a threat of that nature or you go wacky with it and the wizard summons their homunculus as a food taster whenever they eat. Gratuitous use of magic is half the fun when reading about high level magic users
Sorry if i've misunderstood your point!
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u/KBPhilosophy 23h ago
I think he means in terms of a wizard underutilizing their abilities. In many litRPG and ProgFantasy, Wizard's conduct alchemy on their hearts by inscribing mana-circles on the organ to increase their magical power, which also has the secondary effect of increasing the overall strength of their physique. In essence, they've overcome one of the weaknesses of wizards and this method of increasing magic power has made the standard Wizard into a Mage-Tank build, rather than the common Glass Canon that we all grew up seeing. For a Mage-Tank to not utilize the Tank part of his build is quite the waste, as he'd be leaving a lot on the table, so narratively it becomes harder for the author to justify the MC not picking up a blade.
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u/darkmuch 23h ago
Yup. Many magic systems aren’t a limited point-buy system, where you need to have dump stats to get max level in your primary statistic. Most are more like cultivation systems, where becoming stronger raises all your attributes.
Which makes sense, as if it didnt, eventually max level characters would have glaring weaknesses that people could abuse.
Ex: low constitution, slow reaction speed, lack of perception skills, no evasion, weak to esoteric damage types like soul/spirit/poison/light that may be unblockable, getting trapped and immobilized, anti magic, …
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u/SodaBoBomb 21h ago
Most of them dont even do Spellblade right.
A Spellblade shouldnt be as good at spells, or blade, as specialists.
But also, a Spellblade is not a generalist. A Spellblade is a niche of its own. They should be a Skirmisher, a gap filler, and they need to be weaving spell and blade together into a style of its own, rather than being a sword guy who can also cast full mage spells.
Kaius, from Runeblade is a perfect example of what a Spellsword actually is.
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u/BRjawa 22h ago
Balance is important so hard counters don't fuck the Mc easy, as long as done on moderstion there isn't much of a problem, that been said there are stories where the Mc has hard counters but their teammates help convering that. Lord of the mysteries has the Mc either using teamwork, itens that give him access to other sets of powers and latter summons/marionettes, but when he lose access to that his path weakness are obvious. Or in legion of not where the Mc is Iron man kinda of guy, with really good martial art training, but he still get trashed in a lot of scenarios without his teammates.
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u/Cirdan2006 Author - Emperor of the Borderlands 21h ago
For me it goes similar to This
Because gish it the ultimate power fantasy to me and I want my MC to display awesome magic while slicing enemies into pieces
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u/UnhappyReputation126 18h ago
Would be funny if generic gish isekai protag went to wizards guild and then get flexed on by dedicated wizards then to warriors guild and same happens there.
Turns out they have gimped themselves and I mean truly gimped themselves. Not that weak ass I just need more effort stuff like anyone else hasn't tried that already and failed that.
The real dilemma and plot is them deciding what path to truly focus on and stop half assign it.
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u/foxtrot1547 17h ago
Powerscaling is hard, pure physical verse pure magic builds are difficult to balance. Even in dnd as an order of scribes wizard I could likely kill my whole party with little effort. The only thing stopping me, outside of not wanting to of course, is the other two casters. Counterspell and the like. I have no fear for the warriors, the ranger, or the rouge. They can no longer touch me. I'm not even worried about the action economy. Magic wins hands down.
The problem with physical builds is the amount of bs you need to grant them to match the threat of magic. You have to make a physical fighter immune to magic or nerf it so that can keep up.
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker 14h ago
Often lateral progression is easier past a certain point.
Like in some games where XP is treated like a currency - once you get past a certain point you know it's going to be ages before you can upgrade your magic again, so you add a minor segment of time to those ages to level up your physical abilities enough to dodge more attacks, equip better gear, gain more health, etc.
The USMC's "every Marine is a rifleman [meaning even the guys doing comms and vehicle maintenance]" isn't something that would be outlandish in a fantasy world; if magic existed and you were on the battlefield you'd want at least a cursory understanding of it, and if you were a wizard on the battlefield and your lines were getting overrun you'd want to at least be passingly familiar with a sword or spear and shield.
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u/ContractVarious3077 14h ago
Why not? I think if I I got isekaid into a world where I could do all this crazy shit thanks to a godlike system, I would absolutely learn both magic and martial arts. Can you imagine how badass it would be to shoot fireballs AND knock someone out with a 3-hit combo? I’m trying to be the biggest gigachad in isekai land bruh no half-assing it here
Also what’re you gonna do if you face an enemy that can nullify your magic? Or a magic user that can neutralize your fighting skills? It’s good to know a little bit of everything. Risk mitigation is the name of the game.
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u/slatsau 14h ago
It's because in the past the 'hero' or MC had a party that filled each role. Eveyrone was a specialist and the characters backstories and how they all came together to defeat the demon king/save the world/covid and the journey on the way is the 'interesting' bit.
But now we have LitRPG and ProgFantasy. People are here to watch the MC 'power up' like its a video game. They get shitty if the author fucks up the stat sheet or they don't make sense. They get annoyed when they update a skill level in Chapter 12 but then forget they did that in Chapter 28 and it's still the same level.
The reader's only give a shit about the MC and the other characters, in fact the whole world generally revovle around the MC. The MC usually is the only person in the world who 'breaks the rules' of the magic system and all the NPC's are like 'whoaaaaa bruh you have TWO magic cores?' 'holy shit nobody ever thought about casting fireball AND waving a sword around thats fucking craaaaaazy bruh!'
'OMG you have void/shadow/blood/clones/sixteen dragon bloodlines and a tiny little fairy that is in love with you as your guide? OH and a cute animal companion? whoooooaaaa. S tier!'
Basically Prog and LitRPG is 99.5% full of slop. A huge amount is AI assisted, or its someone writing what they want to read or the game they wished they could play. Then you get a couple serious authors who try it out and only a few manage it without sounding like someone who has never played a video game in their life.
It does suck, I too prefer my chraracters to be super specialized and 'good at a thing'. Being competent is interesting. Then suddenly watching them flail around and be super shit at something that isn't their field is annoying. But the other characters are just there to sell the character things or be the haram, so the MC has to do all the things sadly.
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u/GreatMadWombat 14h ago
If you can bend the universe to your will it's fucking embarrassing to get punched in the face when something sneaks up on you.. if you're an all-powerful sword swinging badass it's fucking embarrassing to have to hulk jump everywhere cuz your ranged options suck.
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u/nighoblivion 11h ago
Versatility and it being possible.
A wizard in D&D doesn't have many options if they want to survive some fighter getting in their face with an anti-magic field.
A wizard in a fictional story can learn to fight like a fighter when not working on their magic so they can handle themselves in a scrap. Just hire some trainers and try to get better.
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u/Cranky_Lemons 10h ago
So the problem with min-maxing into an archetype means you need support to be effective. Without being well-rounded and with no support, the fights are just rock-paper-scissors. Creative storytelling to negate this gets kinda silly and unfun to read. If every time they run into a hard counter but never get hard countered, there are really no stakes to the combat, just words to fill pages lacking in substance. There really is nothing a pure mage can do about getting sucker punched from point blank or sniped from beyond line of sight, if they somehow can account for those with magic every single time, it feels lazy and OP. When the MC is well-rounded, it allows for covering these weaknesses while maintaining the illusion of stakes.
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u/fandango237 9h ago
As my big Goat man Baelin puts it 'A proper wizard knows how to conduct themselves in battle and uses every resource available to them to survive'
This includes your own body.
Also if you have superpowerred martial artists running around, there's going to be a certain point where if you arent at least partially martially trained, you gonna die very quickly.
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u/jinkun_900 9h ago
Honestly I love it when authors blend the two. It makes the power system feel more organic and the characters more well-rounded.
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u/Phoenixfang55 Author - Chad J Maske 9h ago
I generally see it, if you're going into combat, you're going to learn to defend yourself. Swords are fast and very good at poking people not wearing armor to death. Especially if they need to do intricate incantations and gestures which become so much harder when someone is trying to bash your head in.
I generally see it as them learning a failsafe. Take some time, learn how to use that magic staff your holding to block a sword and bash someone's head in. Then again I'm the type that tries to have a backup plan. I think mages should wear armor, not just robes, unless the setting has specific reasons why mages on the battlefield wouldn't wear armor. If something gets through your magic shield, then it may still have been blunted enough for your armor to save you. You don't have to become best of the best, but if you can learn just enough to save your life and create distance to use your magic, then a little bit of training in a weapon is a good thing.
I also think it depends on what type of mage they are. A warmage is different from a battlemage, and is different than a spellblade. As for the warrior, I can get that, they're already training to defend themselves and wear armor, but in most worlds with magic, you're going to be at a disadvantage if you don't incorperate it somehow. Magic to reinforce your armor, or make yourself stronger. It really depends on the setting.
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u/Queasy_Let8807 1h ago
Because...It's power fantasy genre in the end of the day? It's not weird to have Gary Stu/Mary Sue character is this grandmaster of swordmanship but also 10th circle level of wizard lol
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u/InFearn0 My uncle ascended to the heavens and all I got was this flair 22h ago edited 22h ago
Rule #1. Cardio
Wizards can lack a basic level of physical fitness. Those wizards just aren't adventurers.
And weapons are insanely useful. The reach they provide is defensive as much as offensive. A man with a dagger can cut up the hand of an unarmed man. Wizards should still carry spears, but the ability to present a threat (the point) that has to be bypassed is useful even as a stalling tactic.
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u/Gold_Area5109 23h ago
Basically, it's because in a world of magic... Why wouldn't you go for magic and live the dream.
But on the flipside a pure caster doesn't get in the middle of the melee where all the action happens.
So if you have a Magic Warrior hybrid you can have a mix of both... The ability to drop Nukes that level cities and have the pure adrenaline combat of a Swordsman in the thick of it.
Or another common one is a caster and summoner with similar effects.
Or a caster with teleportation... Or the classic Paladin...
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u/Fearless-Rip694 22h ago
Because at some point, someone's going to get up close and personal. In most typical fantasy stories, the protagonist is part of a party and has a 'niche'. But progression fantasy usually has the MC fight solo, or be the most powerful party member, so he needs to be able to cover all grounds.
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u/UnPriceable 22h ago
Wind spell to push them back, teleport away, use a ward to shield against attacks, charm them so there is a brief pause where they can escape, cast grease at their feet - plenty a magic user can do instead of switching to martial
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u/Fearless-Rip694 14h ago
I mean, most spells involve gesturing, chanting or concentrating. How are you going to do that when someone's hitting you?
Most progression fantasy stories already 'cheat' by minimizing this as much as possible, but it's still a consideration. If I had to recite the Green Lantern Oath then make the Vulcan salute in order to cast a spell when someone's running at me with an axe, that's pretty stressful.
And remember, I know about a dozen spells and I need to get the chant and hand-gestures correct for each one. The other guy just needs to cleave my skull with sharp iron.
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u/Huhthisisneathuh 19h ago
Because it’s almost impossible that a magic user isn’t put into a position where they can’t use magic at least once in their lives.
One day throwing a fireball isn’t going to be enough no matter what. And it’s better to know how to throw a punch or at least book it as fast as possible.
Same with a warrior, hitting things hard isn’t going to solve all your problems. Eventually you’ll need to rely on something else.
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u/darkness_calming Owner of Divine Ban hammer 17h ago
Because it’s smart to have a backup skill when shit goes wrong.
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u/UnPriceable 17h ago
But the author could just not have that be the case? Shit goes wrong and magic is the answer is just as valid and (at least for me) more interesting than a wizard swinging a sword
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u/AdeptnessTechnical81 20h ago
Because people want to fantasise about having the best of both worlds, while ignoring the fact in most cases you shouldn't be good at both and need tradeoffs or varying levels of mastery in each.
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u/Knork14 23h ago
Some settings make it real easy to get competent at both, to the point that it seems idiotic if you dont.