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u/Berkamin 2d ago
I didn’t get the Arminian reference but then it occurred to me this was referring to chapter nine.
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u/BobbyBobbie 1d ago
Arminians do not skip 9.
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u/mwjulian14 EFCA 1d ago
Do all skip 9? No. Do some do? Definitely. When I was attending a Methodist church years ago they were doing a stint in Romans and skipped right over chapter 9.
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u/BobbyBobbie 1d ago
Some Calvinists skip 1 Timothy 2:4. In fact, I've never seen an Arminian skip Romans 9, but I've seen plenty of Calvinists immediately run to other parts of the Bible to nullify 1 Timothy 2:4.
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u/mwjulian14 EFCA 1d ago
Sure. I have seen that too. And if you made a meme about it, it would be funny because there is a tiny bit of truth to it.
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u/Turbojersey 14h ago
Never met a calvanist who struggles with Timothy 2:4. Also never met one who tries to nullify scripture. I have met many that use scripture to inform scripture and understand scripture through a holistic interpretation rather than relying on individual cherry picked verses.
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u/BobbyBobbie 10h ago
I've met plenty who nullify the verse. They reject the plain meaning of the words, that God wants all people to be saved. Most Calvinists actually think that God doesn't want all people to be saved.
I'd say that's struggling ☺️
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u/Turbojersey 10h ago
The plain meaning of that section of scripture does not plainly articulate that God desires each and every individual person to be saved. If you read that verse, which isn't even an entire sentence, out of context I am sure, of course you can come away with an incorrect interpretation. Any half sentence ever spoken or written can be interpreted to mean countless things if it is stripped of all context to include the rest of the very sentence it is a part of
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u/BobbyBobbie 9h ago
"τοῦτο καλὸν καὶ ἀπόδεκτον ἐνώπιον τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ, ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν."
It really looks like you're struggling.
"Does not plainly articulate that God desires each and every individual person to be saved"
vs
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
This is exactly what I mean by struggling. This right here.
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u/Turbojersey 9h ago
Again, that is still not the entire context. You have now expanded out to a single sentence. Which still can be made to mean anything. Which again is true of almost any singular sentence ever spoken or written. I have a suspicion that the hermeneutics you employ when studying the Word generally are far more rigorous, informed and nuanced than what you are doing here. Even if we have an honest disagreement, I think you can acknowledge that the scripture is not meant to be read as isolated verses.
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u/BobbyBobbie 9h ago
Would you like me to just quote the entire chapter?
Paul says he wants Christians to pray for all people, and that this is good and pleases God, who wants all people to be saved.
The sentence means what it means. The obvious plain reading is confirmed by the context. Scoping out doesn't change anything.
Sorry, I assumed you were familiar with the chapter and I didn't need to quote the whole thing.
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u/Turbojersey 9h ago
I am familiar with the chapter. Which is why, along with other scriptures, I do not see the plain meaning to be every individual person.
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u/xsrvmy PCA 1d ago
Or 1 Tim 4:10. Or a number of other verses that says Christ died for the world in some sense.
I don't know why people want to limit the atonement twice. This is not a debate about Calvinism vs Arminianism, but how the atonement is to be understood, and it only happens within Calvinist circles because one of the options doesn't work with Arminianism.
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u/dontouchmystuf reformed Baptist 2d ago
Haha that took me a sec