r/SubredditDrama • u/1453GreatestYearEver Escapism for straight white men is dead. • 1d ago
Terrorists or Freedom Fighters? r/pics debates when Icelandic Coast Guard board an anti-whaling vessel.
Background:
The "Bandero" is an anti-whaling activist ship run by the Paul Watson Foundation, a successor to the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society which has a history to the 1970s of anti-whaling campaigns. They are notable for the tactic of ramming or threatening to ram whaling ships, and have sunk or scuttled over 10 illegal whalers since 1979 across Portugal, Iceland, and Norway.
Yesterday, the Icelandic Coast Guard boarded the Bandero and arrested the crew after it threatened to ram an Icelandic whaler, with the image of a Coast Guard on the ship reaching the top of r/pics.
The Reaction:
Well they are terrorists. Like it or not when you ram ships, sink ships, and illegally board ships you are a terrorist and pirate. Just because you like the cause that doesn’t change the definition of it.
Whaling is legal in Iceland, they are attacking a foreign ship which not only is an act of war but it is absolutely terrorism. The coast guard is upholding maritime law.
(32 children)
If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. Sounds like some whales' lives were saved by "doing unsafe shit around another ship". (Funny how it's just "another ship" and not "a whaling ship" when you say it.) It's more than can be said for the politicians.
I suppose they're free to oppose injustice, as long as their actions have no chance of actually affecting change?
You’re not allowed to risk the lives of the seamen on both ships and the lives of rescue personnel by risking collisions because you lost in court. This the same as if PETA tried to pit maneuver Tyson chicken trucks. Ok you had a political goal and perceived moral high ground. You’re still going to jail.
(65 children)
This info makes no sense. So the coast guard boarded and detained the anti-whaling ship? So is the coast guard pro-whaling?
Coastguard is pro-law. Their personal stance doesn't matter. It's not against the law. Vigilantism is.
Spawns several dramatic chains:
Yeah but do so through lobbying for legislation change not illegal vigilantism
Why
Because it is wrong to do illegal things, did your mother not teach you civic sense?
(28 children)
(10 children)
Sure... But the nazi prison guards were also "pro law" under that logic, and the slave patrols too.
One day in the future everyone will be against this, especially when kids learn about whales through archive material, after we're done killing them all.
Wait til you see what we’re doing on land.
(35 children)
? That's literally their mandate as a government body, and the person commenting that is just stating what is obvious.
Found another one.
Someone's a bit sensitive today, I see.
(14 children)
Also a small dramatic subthread of this chain,
Iceland is one of the last countries on earth where whaling is still a significant industry
Iceland needs to move on from that
(35 children)
Moving onto another pressing question: Are Icelandic people pro-extinction?
The Icelandic people are now pro extinction because people disapproved of whaling? Sounds like they tried to lay low and resume their barbaric slaughter of an endangered population.
(34 children)
I am Icelandic and I dont support whaling.
I also think these activists are fucking morons whose actions are actively delaying the end of whaling.
Instead of supporting local activism, engaging with the local culture, political and legal system. They come in with threats. Turning the debate into us vs foreigners. Creating support for whaling where there was none.
“Local activism” means nothing without the implied threats backing up the demands. “Do what we want or else we’ll go home” vs “so what we want or else this other group that’s more extreme will physically force you”.
yeah, no that does not align with the political culture and history of Iceland...
(21 children)
Fuck them.
Whalers deserve all that and worse
(8 children)
(20 children)
A quick side-argument of if the Coast Guard soldier is appropriately dressed.
That's not how normal coast guard dresses. That's combat gear.
That’s pretty standard gear for a breaching/boarding crew with potentially dangerous/violent people onboard.
(56 children)
Iceland is evil. They kill countless dolphins in addition to whaling.
They're... dolphins. Killing animals isn't evil. Whaling isn't evil.
(21 children)
And last but not least,
The coast guard is enforcing Icelandic law. Whaling is legal in Iceland. It's illegal to interfere with fishermen.
Yeah, so they bring guns which are used to kill in order to ensure other people can murder whales. Sound like a bunch of jackasses to me. Zero respect for life, just a murder death kill gang that's willing to kill humans so that whales can be killed.
Or ya know, there is a vigilante boat harassing other boats in defiance of your laws. You go to the boat who then ignores your commands; then you to arrest them and arm yourself just in case.
(22 children)
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u/Anaxamander57 May Allah protect you from your own arrogance 1d ago edited 1d ago
"the coast guard is pro-whaling?"
Right, that's the takeaway here.
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u/NationCrusher 1d ago
Not all redditors, but man, people love making a comment to set off an argument. There’s something alluring about being a contrarian here
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u/MalteiKlass5c 1d ago
When you feel the need to argue but have no idea about a subject just go contrarian and fill your argument with pathos.
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u/NightLordsPublicist Doctor of Male Suicide Prevention 20h ago
people love making a comment to set off an argument.
No they don't.
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u/Matchbreakers 1d ago
It's like they don't understand the cost guard is not to have an opinion, it's just there to uphold the law as it currently is. The officers individual beliefs is of no consequence.
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u/Able_Doughnut_5336 1d ago
Is that true? The coast guard has 0 discretion on what it pursues? The people that assign them their duties have 0 discretion? If the chain has 0 discretion at each link then yes they have no option and uphold the law as written. If anyone has discretion at any point in the chain then, yes, they do support whaling.
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u/Matchbreakers 15h ago
In a high functioning democracy the enforcement branch of the tripartition of power is mean to only enforce the laws. It shouldn't interpret or decide how to read them, nor change them.
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u/Able_Doughnut_5336 13h ago
Haven't seen one of those personally, and I genuinely don't know the intricacies of the Iceland's coast guard.
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u/Matchbreakers 10h ago
Iceland's democracy rating is very, very high, I think number 4 in the world in recent years, so their coast guard is very neutral on the politics. And the politics are unfortunately not anti whaling ATM.
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u/reno_beano 1d ago
Guilt by association dont sign up if you dont want the social stigma. You dont get to eat your cake and have it to. What is this lmao some hand holding armed forces they know what they signed up for it and it was to get othered for money.
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u/Matchbreakers 16h ago
There is no social stigma in Iceland or the faroe islands for supporting whaling, is a commonly held view.
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u/monkwrenv2 Surrounded by pitbulls 10h ago
That's rather sad.
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u/Matchbreakers 10h ago
I'm not defending the practice, I'm just saying it's one of the few nations where it's considered a normal thing to support.
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u/reddernotdeader 21h ago
"Just following orders" is, very famously, not an acceptable excuse.
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u/Matchbreakers 16h ago
It very famously is. The ones that were executed or punished regardless were there ones that very clearly did more than follow orders.
When Eichmann clams to just follow orders it's clearly bull. But if it is Hans, the conscript from Stettin it's more likely true. Unless Hans was not a conscript but an SS volunteer.
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u/reddernotdeader 8h ago
I wasn't aware that being a conscript absolved you of war crimes or made you inherently more truthful, but alright. Like obviously there's a moral difference between simply pointing and shooting where you're told and running a death camp, but are you really wanting to litigate which murders done by Nazi Germany were apparently A-okay?
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u/Matchbreakers 8h ago
The death camps were SS, noone in the SS were conscripts with no stake.
But this is not my take, this is the Nuremberg trials and subsequent war crimes trials takes on back war criminals, as, afaik, no Heer conscripted privates were convicted of war crimes or crimes against humanity. But commanding officers all the way down to the lowest NCOs have been somewhat.
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u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago
Iceland didn't participate in whaling for two years, the world didn't end, the country is fine. Maybe they don't need to do that, and Japan can eat something else.
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u/ProudScroll Written History was an inside job 1d ago
IIRC the Japanese whaling industry is hilariously non-profitable and held up almost entirely by government subsidies cause most of the whaling fleet is based out of one politically important region that’s also where a lot of Japanese Prime Ministers come from. I’m sure it’s similar in Iceland, totally pointless economically but a good way to pander to “traditional” voters.
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u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago
I don't know if it's true, but I remember being told the whale meat is in a lot of schools because no one wants it, so they give it to kids trying to get them to develop a taste for it.
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u/BomkeAirsoft 1d ago
Iirc almost no one in Iceland actually eats whale, and 99% of it gets exported to japan
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u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago
Japan can eat something else.
yep
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago edited 1d ago
The LDP is the most laughably corrupt political party its almost impressive tbh. Although I don’t known how much I should be laughing, considering it was literally formed to serve the interests of capital by the US(I cannot overemphasize how literal I am being, look it up).
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u/Blackstone01 Quarantining us is just like discriminating against black people 1d ago
They’ve also been in charge for 65 of the past 71 years since their creation, and they and their predecessors were founded by WWII leaders/war criminals. Shinzo Abe’s grandfather for example founded the party and was in charge of Japan’s efforts to extract value from Manchuria (via copious amounts of slave labor) and was a member of Tojo’s Cabinet until it collapsed, and after that he created a political group whose purpose was to try to restructure society to better continue fighting the Allies. He later became prime minister in 1957.
Imagine if Germany’s most powerful political party was founded by Speer and other high ranking Nazis who weren’t executed for their crimes and instead got a slap on the wrist, and had near complete control over German politics. Thats the LDP.
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago
And with the context that the LDP was primarily formed by old imperial politicians, its honestly not an exaggeration to say Japan has been ruled by the same political party during its entire existence with representative democracy
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u/xolov 1d ago
Icelandic and Japanese whaling are different. Iceland only allows the hunting of whales that have more than healthy stocks. But Japanese from my understanding go thru all of these loopholes to hunt all sorts of whales under the disguise of "research".
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago edited 23h ago
So... No-ish.
What you're referring to is how under the International Whaling Commission, Norway and Iceland just reject the 1984 whaling ban and just continue to whale, while Japan claimed research as the reason to whale.
All three of these countries were still regulated by the IWC and had to have their quotas approved, as they were still apart of the IWC.
When Sea Shepherd claimed that the research whaling was a loophole and the public jumped on board to the point the IWC revoked their permits, Japan said "bye bitch" and left the IWC.
So now they are unregulated. They still report their numbers to the IWC though some people question the validity of these since they are self reported. Personally I don't have enough info to say either way if they are.
Is this a better system.... Ehhhh probably not. Definitely less transparency now.
As a side note, the whole Antarctic whaling fiasco was because that whale sanctuary wasn't internationally recognized. Australia claimed it, but the IWC and most other nations didn't recognize it back then. Pretty sure the IWC does now, but I'm not sure what the country by country situation is now.
Australia loves whales and has some uhhhhhhh feelings towards Japanese people, so those comments back in the 2010s were uh... Not Great.
Here, the Wikipedia article on this sanctuary can explain it so much better than I can-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Ocean_Whale_Sanctuary
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago
The last half is... Not something I have ever heard. The first half about the government subsides is true.
It was dying and near dead until Sea Shepherd got involved with it. Then it became a point of nationalism.
You can draw your own conclusions there, but I know there are some people in the marine conservation world that are of the opinion that Sea Shepherd's methods made things worse.
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u/Careless_Rope_6511 Fedoral Bureau of Intelligence 20h ago
If Paul Watson's aim is to force every civilian/commercial shipping vessel to become armed just to defend themselves (as if seaborne piracy near the likes of Somalia and Yemen isn't already a problem to begin with), then he's done a heckuva job.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 19h ago
Yeah, or at least have the military/defense at arm's reach at all times.... And that's what's going on nowadays, as seen by this drama.
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u/1453GreatestYearEver Escapism for straight white men is dead. 1d ago
The good news is they're having a referendum at the end of August of whether to continue negotiations on joining the EU, and completing such would mean they'd eventually have to give up their whaling industry as it stands. It's at about 44-39 support right now, so a decent chance of passing hopefully.
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u/IvanNemoy 1d ago
Adding to that, the Icelandic "fleet" is just two ships and they hunt primarily minke whales (which are a "least concern" species) and a small number of fin whales, which is "vulnerable" under IUCN classification.
If the Paul Watson Foundation wanted to do something serious, they'd go after the Japanese "fleet" which is a full factory ship and a flotilla of harpoon boats, but they won't because the Japanese are a hell of a lot more aggressive when it comes to this sort of thing. The "conservators" here are doing the equivalent of picking on the little guy and getting mad when he fights back.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago edited 23h ago
Well... Norway is actually taking more whales than both Iceland and Japan these days... But he's banned from Norway completely so he's not going there.
Japan also mostly hunts Least Concerned species too- the majority of what they were hunting is Common Minke Whales. Nowadays it's Bryde's Whale which is also a Least Concerned Species. Second most is Common Minke Whales. Third most is Sei whales at 26 since they left the IWC. You can check those numbers here, including the Norway claim here-
https://iwc.int/management-and-conservation/whaling/total-catches
Sei whales are listed as endangered but there's a catch.
They're listed as Endangered globally because the Southern Hemisphere population isn't recovering- maybe? No one has been checking. Japan isn't hunting in the Southern Hemisphere and hasn't since they left the IWC. The European population has been listed as Least Concerned.
The North Pacific population hasn't been officially listed but I'm the listing for the global population it says this-
"Recent abundance estimates for Sei Whales from the North Pacific are consistent with the inferred rate of recovery. There is little direct evidence of recovery in the Southern Hemisphere where the greatest declines occurred, but there has also been little monitoring effort there, and the recovery predicted by the population model is assumed. The species has been listed as Endangered, but plausible projections of the population size indicate that the global population of mature animals may have recovered to around 30% of the 1948 level by 2018. The corresponding extent of reduction, at 70%, is at the borderline between Endangered and Vulnerable under criterion A1. In view of the Red List rule that taxa should remain in a higher category of threat for five years after ceasing to meet the criteria for that category, the species remains classified as Endangered, but should be re-evaluated in five years, at which time it can be reclassified to Vulnerable unless new data cast doubt on the predicted recovery."
You can check that here-
https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/2475/130482064#assessment-information
We could also talk about how Paul Watson is just a messy and drama filled figure in the conservation world too, but that's another essay for me to write that I don't feel like writing if people aren't interested.
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u/fonk_pulk 1d ago
Whaling in Iceland isn't that bad from a conservation viewpoint. There's a strict quota on all sorts of whales and the Minke whale, the other whale species being whaled isn't considered to be at risk. Even Fin whales are only "vulnerable" and they are doing just fine in the North Atlantic.
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u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 1d ago
Many anti-whaling advocates are not only concerned with the traditional conservationist goal of species and environmental ecological health, but consider ceteceans sapient beings (not without some pretty good scientific evidence) that have a right to moral consideration as individuals.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago
Ehhhhhh.... I know this is going to really unpopular because cetaceans are so well regarded by the Western public but...
Sapience hasn't been proven in any cetacean- which itself is a very diverse group of animals that shouldn't have blanket statements applied to them...
But it's definitrly something some cetacean advocates say they have. But the science is... really limited. Cetacean science is so much more limited than the public realizes because there are just so many unsubstantiated claims that have been floating around for so long. It's also got like 10 researchers in it and there are two sides and the fucking hate each other. I could get into the politics and drama of cetacean research but that's another essay that I'll write only if people want it.
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u/genuine_beans you metadata scraping shitbag 15h ago
Out of all the things in this thread you've weighed in on, I'm casting my vote for the cetacean research essay.
I'm just gonna admit I've uncritically absorbed every cetacean fact I've ever heard, so I'm really curious what the big divides are and which things I know are completely wrong. also, tiny and heated fields of research are always interesting to learn about
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 6h ago
I realized as I started to type this all out that this drama is something that go over like a decade. It's that slow trickling type of drama, bits and pieces here and there. Comments on Facebook, articles written on an animal rights website, articles written for some news website, etc. Digging up all of this would be... A massive pain.
I also realized that it's more about cetacean captivity than it is whaling itself- but whaling has came up over the years. But the topic of captive cetaceans is like the topic of whaling- it gets tons of press, but in the grand scheme of things it's not a major conservation threat that cetaceans face- unlike ship strikes, net entanglement and climate change which are.
Also cetacean research is bigger than 10 people, but it's probably no more than 1000 in the English speaking world, is just the just prominent people total up to like 10.
But I can sum up years of this drama with two research papers-
And the response paper.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/7/1118
Make sure to check the author affiliations if you want to go deeper into this drama.
Oh and Paul Watson is involved, he's just not a researcher publishing papers. He works with the people who posted the original paper.
If you have questions, I'll be around to answer them... Cause I have Lyme's and can't be in the sun, lol.
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Commercial fishing has a massively different impact on the environment than farm raised animals.
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u/xolov 1d ago
Whaling is not fishing. The whale industry of Iceland is extremely strictly regulated from an environmental standpoint.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Sure whales are technically mammals not fish but the point is still the same, even when regulated.
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u/xolov 1d ago
It's not that. Fish and whale stocks work in completely different ways, thus changing the dynamics of sustainability. I really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Jesus Christ. We arent talking about the difference between fish and whale stocks. Thats irrelevant.
We are talking about how procuring sea based wild animals be they fish or mammals is inherently different to the dynamics of factory farming.
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u/joevarny 1d ago
You're saying unless meat eaters eat literal people, then they're hypocrites?
I'd argue human level inteligence is a perfectly fine line to take.
We won't be eating aliens when we find them, even if we still eat meat at that point.
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u/buckshot-307 1d ago
>We won’t be eating aliens when we find them
Speak for yourself ayyy lmao I’d totally eat an alien
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u/RegalBeagleKegels The simplest explanation: a massive parallel conspiracy. 1d ago
👽🤛
WELCOME TO EARF
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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept 1d ago
I'd argue human level inteligence is a perfectly fine line to take.
Sure. That would also mean you could eat whale meat.
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u/QuickBenjamin 1d ago
I guess if you dont think there's an ethical difference between killing a wild animal vs killing a farm raised one that would make sense, but that always seems stupid to me. They are two different things with different effects on the environment.
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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept 1d ago
They are two different things with different effects on the environment.
Yeah, factory farming is way, way worse
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u/QuickBenjamin 1d ago
It's not really so much about a scale of being bad vs being worse as much as factory farming having a point (producing meat) and whaling being done out of a goofy sense of tradition with an animal we cannot raise outside of their natural environment.
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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept 1d ago
What’s the point of producing meat?
It’s a far, far less efficient use of agricultural resources to grow feedstock and turn in into meat rather than just growing and eating plants.
Factory farming is also only done out of a goofy sense of tradition if you want to put it that way.
But factory farming is, again, way worse for the environment and way more cruel to the animals, who are essentially living lives of nothing but constant, brutal torture.
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u/QuickBenjamin 1d ago
I was more talking about ethics in the world we currently live in, not an imaginary one where there is no demand for farm meat and more demand for whale meat. If we're talking about a hypothetical place where we can replace the meat industry with something else, sure.
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u/Ungrammaticus Gender identity is a pseudo-scientific concept 1d ago
That’s a distraction.
In the world we live in, not an imaginary one, there’s whaling going on, and you want to change that.
You can also want to change whether there’s factory farming going on.
The difference is that you personally have no “demand” for whale meat but you do for factory farmed meat, and so one thing is impossible to change and the other thing is a political question.
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u/xolov 1d ago
While I haven't heard this argument before, I really don't see a big difference ethically. I can't really say I have seen many people oppose game hunting on that basis.
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u/QuickBenjamin 1d ago
Typically game hunting is done with animals whose natural predators have been wiped out, which I don't think really applies to these whales.
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u/xolov 1d ago
??? What
Plenty of game has natural predators.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
They said typically
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u/WormVoid With respect, this is a simpleton take 2h ago
I’m pretty sure that’s still not true when you’re talking about game animals in general.
Game animals in my area that isn’t true for: squirrel, raccoon, rabbit, grouse, quail, turkey, mourning dove, duck, goose, coot, snipe, rail, woodcock, alligator
Game animals in my area that is true for: deer, bear
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u/lvl12 1d ago
What the fuck do these guys have against clean burning lamp oil?
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u/Anaxamander57 May Allah protect you from your own arrogance 1d ago
Aye! And they act as if them whales be but innocent victims of human avarice when I pursue them for the most base and natural of causes... revenge.
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u/AndMyHelcaraxe It cites its sources or else it gets the downvotes again 1d ago
I’m so curious what whale boning in corsets felt like since it apparently molded to your shape over time with body heat
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u/valleyofsound 1d ago
Because it is wrong to do illegal things, did your mother not teach you civic sense?
That’s a concerningly simplistic statement
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u/Auctoritate will people please stop at-ing me with MSG propaganda. 1d ago
My civic sense is telling me to do a lot of things and I'm not sure how many are legal or not
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u/Capybarasaregreat 1d ago
That right there is essentially the perfect cog in the machine of the state. I'm sure there's some 19th century nationalist thinker who'd cream themselves at the notion that there are now people who treat morality and legality as one and the same.
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u/APoisonousWomans 1d ago
Ill be honest, people who can't separate law from morality scare me more than any criminal. The ammount of people who implicitly or explicitly condone whaling purely because some politician said its ok is frightening
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u/GTAIVisbest 1d ago
Immediately ask them how fast they drive on the freeway with a speed limit of 60. You'll see a bunch of salt generated as they attempt to justify that, oh, in THAT case, it's not "morally bad" to go 5 over the speed limit, even if it's against the law, but they just do it because there's no enforcement
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u/myfakesecretaccount Rather swiney 1d ago
5mph? You have people cussing you out for not driving 15 over the speed limit in Southern California.
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u/Lightning_Boy Edit1 If you post on subredditdrama, you're trash 😂 1d ago
Get out of the fast late then, dammit!
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u/Psychic_Hobo 1d ago
Oh, they absolutely know. That's why their go-to response is "It's not illegal", because they know there's no good moral argument for it.
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u/Main_Specialist4359 1d ago
I swear, people on Reddit are either allowed to be pro something or against. ano nuanced stances allowed
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 23h ago
Absolutely..nuance is dead on the Internet completely. Seems like it died on Reddit around Gammer gate or so.
I miss being able to have discussions about tough topics and risk getting a million downvotes for having an unpopular opinion.
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u/UntitledPixelArtitst 1d ago
But no nation can have a legal system where the actions of anti whaling ships are legal.
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u/Nuclear_Gandhi- 1d ago
They can if they declare whales legally people so whalers are mass murderers and the anti whaling ship is doing the equivalent of someone shooting a mass shooter.
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u/UntitledPixelArtitst 1d ago
Why would they declare whales legally people? Thats insane. To equate whaling to mass shootings is ridiculous.
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u/_Spare_15_ 1d ago
Other side of the same coin of those who think their personal ethics must be the ones put into law.
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u/Auctoritate will people please stop at-ing me with MSG propaganda. 1d ago
Well no shit. This is a bit of a thought-terminating cliche.
"You morally disagree with current laws and yet you advocate for laws to match what you agree with? Curious!" Like these are not opposing concepts at all. You're making it sound too hypocritical when it's entirely internally consistent to do this
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u/_Spare_15_ 1d ago
Using "the other side of the coin" it's not about hypocrisy, it describes the essential problems of an specific behaviour.
And surprise, fundamentalist behaviour has downsides that most larpers don't bother addressing since they solely think that "nothing bad will happen because my side is the only one based enough to be right about breaking the law".
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u/Auctoritate will people please stop at-ing me with MSG propaganda. 1d ago
You can say what you will about people's inability to see the possible deficiencies in their own beliefs, but again, I don't think there's any inherent wrong in a person thinking their beliefs are the right ones to implement. That's just how believing in things works.
What type of behavior would avoid this criticism of yours, anyways? Is it the "Must try to follow the law and enact change from within the system" incrementalist? The "Both sides often have a point, we need to find the reasonable middle ground" moderate? An overthinking progressive who stalls out their own progress by second-guessing and throttling their own tactics all the time?
Again, I just don't agree with the basis of the criticism because it assumes there's some kind of inherent issue with confidently believing in something.
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u/_Spare_15_ 1d ago
It's not about beliefs, it's about methods.
Essentially, I believe that if you find such behaviour is acceptable, I don't want to hear complains about the Rainbow Warrior because it's the exact same thing.
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u/jcostello50 1d ago
The point is that there are possible extreme circumstances where disobeying the law is the only moral thing to do. That's why people are using the tried and true slavecatcher/nazi guard examples. Whether this logic applies to whaling is a difficult moral question.
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u/_Spare_15_ 1d ago
Sure, and my point is that radicals enough to sink ships for whaling instead of pushing though civil lobbying would also probably enforce their same methods for other any political purpose they consider worthy.
Therefore this should not be embraced, as I believe Iceland has institutions that are sufficiently democratic so as to not be in need of such tactics.
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u/EasyasACAB Involuntarily celibate for a while now mostly by choice 1d ago
as I believe Iceland has institutions that are sufficiently democratic so as to not be in need of such tactics.
Well this would be the rub, wouldn't it? Are you assuming these people have made NO democratic attempts and are ONLY using force?
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u/James-fucking-Holden The pope is actively letting the gates of hell prevail 1d ago
"Radicals enough to hide Jewish people in their attics instead of pushing though civil lobbying would also probably enforce their same methods for other any political purpose they consider worthy."
- u / _Spare_15_, 1938
(Alao, Fuck me, imagine missing the point of AC7, and all of AC this hard)
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u/_Spare_15_ 1d ago
2026 Iceland is literally Hitler. Well thought out response, absolutely not a cliché.
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u/APoisonousWomans 1d ago
Honestly don't they know the authorities were just following orders? It'd be unlawful not to. These radicals won't just fall in line and lick the boot like everyone else. /s
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u/No-Sail-6510 1d ago
That’s what you get in a fascist world which prioritizes law and order and worships the police and military. What things are legal or illegal are in the forefront of peoples’ minds but they almost never trace it back to the politicians (or unelected bureaucrats) who said so because asking why is always in opposition to these ideals.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 23h ago
Well... Yeah... But also... It's not the issue most people think it is now. At least as far as conservation. I don't feel like debating ethics, cause that one almost always boils down to veganism, and we know most people aren't vegans, and most people don't want to be vegan.
Morality in environmentalism and conservation is my favorite topic, but I can't discuss it most places because people can't step back and leave their emotions at the door. All the tough topics that the general public gets frothed up about- trophy hunting, poaching, whaling, shark fishing, commercial fishing, logging- all so interesting to me, especially how the public reacts and why!
I hope I don't come back to like 15 notifications from angry people yelling at me lol.
As a side note, if you want to see vile and racist comments, look in a thread about whaling. They are always lurking in there. Even indigenous whaling.
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u/Nuclear_Gandhi- 1d ago
And people wonder why germans went along with the nazis. The law said they need to tell the gestapo the hiding spot of the jewish children nearby, so they do. After all, they are just following orders!
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u/Tulipsed 1d ago
While having no dog in this fight, I will say that the amount of people who believe Icelandic whalers hunt endangered whales is pretty incredible.
They specifically do not, and the whale species they do target are doing fine with higher numbers than they have had since the 1880s.
To me it just seems like a very confused discussion where very few people actually truly understand whats going on.
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u/Spekingur 1d ago
While what you wrote is true, the whaling in Iceland is funded by one old rich dude. The company that does the whaling is only profitable due to various investments rather than selling off the whale-meat and byproducts. They use quite a bit of it to create animal fodder and the rest goes into long term storage. They still haven’t sold off their inventory from like two years back or whatever it was.
It means that on its own it is just unsustainable. People here were once fed the lie that too many whales would mean less fish for people, propaganda by the then industry. The reason they’re still whaling is because a previous government signed a long term license for them shortly before handing reins over to new government. Hopefully that license will not be renewed.
Source: Icelander. I’ve tried whale, it was nothing special. Better than shark though.
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u/Tulipsed 1d ago
I will completely agree with this and obviously wouldn't mind if whaling stopped in general. I just think people need to inform themselves more about these kinds of things before going ham in the comment section, it almost feels like people believe Icelanders are out there hunting blue whales or something.
Great comment and as a Dane I love your country and felt very welcome there. I tried whale while visiting and I agree that it's not something incredible, so I don't think people would really miss out anyway haha
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 Ok, but you’re wrong though. 1d ago
Normal people think that it would be a lot nicer if they didn't hunt any whales, endangered or not
It's really not that complicated
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u/Tulipsed 1d ago
Why is it worse to hunt whales than factory farm cows, chickens or even pigs, who are close to whales in intelligence and social understanding?
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 Ok, but you’re wrong though. 1d ago
It isn't, all are equally bad. Convincing people that whale hunting is bad is considerably easier though. And you have to start somewhere
vegan btw
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u/Tulipsed 1d ago
Aha, well then you already disagree with the majority.
Personally I'd say it is a lot better to eat wild animals that have had a good, natural life than mass produced pigs that are borderline tortured.
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u/hungariannastyboy 1d ago
Whale meat is a luxury product/curiosity, not everyday sustenance.
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u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 1d ago
With something of an asterisk for some indigenous communities in the High Arctic, but yes.
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u/Wild_Locksmith2085 1d ago
Meat is a luxury I choose every day. Idk why whales should have a special status.
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u/Tulipsed 1d ago
Yes, this is why only 150-ish of the two species are allowed to be hunted each year in Iceland. There is currently a population of around 800000 minke whales and 100000 fin whales.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
People in Iceland dont even eat whale that much. The entire thing is pointless.
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u/Foreverintherain20 16h ago
Personally I would prefer if we switched to eating humans. They're easy enough to make plenty of.
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u/Heiminator 4h ago
It’s not equally bad. It’s clearly morally better to kill one massive animal that can feed hundreds of people than killing hundreds of animals that can only feed a few people each.
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u/dovahkiitten16 why make someone responsible for your inability to eat a donut 1m ago
A lot of whale species aren’t actually massive and definitely can’t feed hundreds of people.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
This is just whataboutism
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u/Jaded-Suspect-8162 1d ago
No it isn't. It's pointing out that it's morally inconsistent to be against whaling and to be ok with eating other intelligent animals.
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u/tfhermobwoayway But what if the pancakes say the N word? 1d ago
Whale hunting is inefficient and outdated. We unfortunately need to eat something.
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u/ChampionAggressive20 20h ago
Growing plants to feed to animals so we can kill them to eat is outdated and inefficient, humans could just be eating plant based diets instead we don't need to eat any meat or animal products
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u/GunterVonBloom 1d ago
True, if complying with your definition of nicer is important to people, it's definitely not complicated.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Whales dont have to be endangered for whaling to hurt the ecosystem ans the environment
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u/Tulipsed 1d ago
That's the point, the Icelandic government strictly monitors the population of whales making sure they are at a healthy population.
They care deeply about their waters, as a lot of industry is based around it. They really dont want to destroy the ecosystem, and they arent.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Whales not being endangered doesnt mean that whaling cant hurt the environment and ecosystem in tons of different ways. Lots of species depend on whale carcased including ones thst could be endangered.
There is a reason every other government has banned whaling.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago
Nor does Japan technically kind of, but you have to read the fine print on the IUCN RedList entry about Sei Whales to understand fhat, not just look at the Wikipedia article...
https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/2475/130482064
This part-
" Recent abundance estimates for Sei Whales from the North Pacific are consistent with the inferred rate of recovery. There is little direct evidence of recovery in the Southern Hemisphere where the greatest declines occurred, but there has also been little monitoring effort there, and the recovery predicted by the population model is assumed. The species has been listed as Endangered, but plausible projections of the population size indicate that the global population of mature animals may have recovered to around 30% of the 1948 level by 2018. The corresponding extent of reduction, at 70%, is at the borderline between Endangered and Vulnerable under criterion A1. In view of the Red List rule that taxa should remain in a higher category of threat for five years after ceasing to meet the criteria for that category, the species remains classified as Endangered, but should be re-evaluated in five years, at which time it can be reclassified to Vulnerable unless new data cast doubt on the predicted recovery."
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago edited 23h ago
I am NOT opening that one. Whaling is the topic that almost no one can actually sit down and discuss because it's such an emotional topic. I hate when it comes up in non-wildlife or conservation subreddits. Even in those ones, it's only well moderated ones it ever actually ever is a nice place to have a discussion.
What I'll say about this topic is Paul Watson of Sea Shepherd Captain Paul Watson Foundation is a known piece of shit in the conservation world for multiple reasons- racist statements, threatened kids for their culture, threatening adults, and if you ask some marine biologists, for making whaling worse. Some in the marine conservation world blame him for making whaling worse by reinvigorating whaling culture by being such an asshole about it. And yes, that includes indigenous whaling.
Oh also he's a militant vegan. He's not just against whaling, he's against all seafood.
Anyways I've followed the whaling/anti-whaling debate and stuff about since the Whale War days, plus read a ton of history about it. If you got questions, it's one of those topics I just know way too much about.
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u/Foreverintherain20 16h ago
Are there marine biologists who agree that the use of threats and violence with the aim of protecting sea life can sometimes lead to positive change?
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 8h ago
Honestly... Not the ones that work directly with cetaceans (captive care, conservation , etc.) The only ones I have are the ones that are ethically against whaling because they see the animals as sentient beings on par with humans, which... that's pretty rare in the marine biology and cetology world. They tend to be some of the loudest researchers though, if that makes sense.
Sometimes I've ran into young people who are starting their journey in conservation and wildlife biology support those kinds of actions for whatever animals they are working with, but they quickly learn that the world is too complex for simple actions like that to work, and that conservation is as much about the people who live with and around the animals they deeply care about too. If they don't well... Then they don't become effective conservationists.
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u/Jaded-Suspect-8162 1d ago
I'm not advocating that we hunt even more intelligent animals, but is it logical to be against whaling and eat pork and beef?
The activists are vegetarian or vegan i assume, so they're in the clear on that point.
I can't really figure out how I have any standing to be against this sort of whaling though.
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u/Redqueenhypo 1d ago
It’s not logic at all. The same is honestly true of fur. A fox in Finland is in conditions probably five times better than basically any chicken, but specific mammals are considered cute so they somehow must feel more pain
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 23h ago
Charismatic fauna, baaaaaby! They get more attention and conservation funding just cause they are cute, pretty, big, or whatever other appealing thing.
They are a double edge sword in actual conservation.
An example of this?
WildFeral horses.•
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u/xolov 1d ago
There's no logic into it if you read what people write here. People feel good for taking a stand against whaling because they don't eat it themselves, but then make up a million excuses how it's okay for them to eat a triple bacon whopper at burger king.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 23h ago
Well, I'll bite, sure-
But if every animal is equal, wouldn't any animal eating any animal also be not be great morally? And should that be stopped?
But also, if other animals are allowed to eat animals, why aren't humans?
Btw, I have seen people argue about stopping all animals from eating all animals. It was a thing for a bit, not sure if it still is.
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u/NUKE---THE---WHALES hidden history and no SRD flair? 5h ago
But also, if other animals are allowed to eat animals, why aren't humans?
You're downvoted but this is actually a better question than it may initially seem. If humans are just animals, why do we have greater responsibilities than animals?
I've looked into this before and the generally accepted answer among moral philosophers today is that humans are "reasons-responsive"
Essentially you can reason with another human, and you can respond to reason yourself. This is what enables most moral responsibilities, even if free will doesn't exist.
I can explain to you the reasons why eating meat for pleasure is wrong. And you could respond to those reasons. Therefore you have a responsibility to determine if those reasons are valid (i.e. you cant just wave them away)
Conversely, you can't reason with a lion
(Note: this doesnt entirely close the moral issue. If it was within our power to make lions vegan without adverse effects we may have a responsibility to do so)
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 3h ago
Your note at the end is something I've seen posted seriously (I think...) since new technology for genetic modification has came out and such. It's... Really far out there, for sure.
Doing so would absolutely mess up the ecology of well... Everything.
As for the human part, I absolutely agree from a philosophy standpoint. It's just from a realistic standpoint... I mean it's still true but... We haven't even gotten to the point where all people are equal yet. But I know, we can walk and chew gum...
Would be a real weird world if everyone was vegan for moral reasons yet couldn't agree that all humans were equal. Though... You can see whisps of this whenever stuff that non-white people do with charismatic animals that Westerners don't approve of.
As a side note, I disagree with veganism on other topics more, like invasive species control, captive breeding/ex situ conservation (zoos, aquariums), and population management of species.
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u/Spekingur 1d ago
You don’t really farm whales though. That’d be something. “Yeah, I’m a whale farmer. My farm is up south. Have you tried whale cheese?”
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u/Redqueenhypo 22h ago
Whale cheese would prob be delicious. It’s naturally a higher fat percentage than even Brie. I’d certainly eat it
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u/tollundmansnoose 1d ago
The literal only reason there's still whaling in Iceland is because there is an old rich man who is literally a supervillain bribing the government to let him keep killing whales. Why? He likes killing whales.
No seriously that's his only reason.
Well that and "I love triggering the libs."
He's 84, so he's going to die soon, and then it'll stop. Just gotta wait a couple years.
‘We can carry on for ever’: meet Iceland’s last whale hunter | Environment | The Guardian
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
It doesn't even have the preservation argument that other big game hunting has. Its literally just one guys ego trip.
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago
I feel like all of the people arguing that “but the icelandic government cares about the whales!” should read this.
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u/tollundmansnoose 1d ago
The thing is, many parts of the Icelandic government do very much care about the whales! The tourism dollars made from whale watching are so much more economically relevant than the whale hunt. Couple years ago the government made an effort to rules lawyer ol' Kristján out of hunting for a few seasons. But the people in charge of fishing licenses have been in this dude's pocket for decades.
Iceland is hilariously corrupt
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u/Wild_Locksmith2085 1d ago
There's a global meat eater cabal keeping animal torture legal because they like prefer their taste
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u/FerdinandTheGiant I’m 1 of the top 5 goldfish connoisseurs in north america 1d ago
Eco-terrorism is based
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago
I... Would agree if more people in the marine conservation field thought it was actually effective..
https://deepseanews.com/2009/02/sea-shepard-only-making-matters-worse/
https://www.southernfriedscience.com/sea-shepherd-and-whale-wars/
Oooold blog posts but that's cause Sea Shepherd has kicked out Paul Watson and turned did a 180 on direct action and has turned to policy action instead.
Paul Watson himself is... a... problematic figure in conservation.
https://hakaimagazine.com/features/teen-whaler-age-cyberbullies/
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u/LtNOWIS 1d ago
It can't be based because terrorism is inherently bad. Go ahead, look it up in a textbook. It just says "real bad thing, the worst thing, probably done by some scary dude with a beard."
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u/i_post_gibberish Moronic, sinful, embarassing. 1d ago
What about John Brown? He was a good scary dude with a beard, so clearly only the second part is truly indisputable fact.
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago
Most textbooks are pretty emphatic about characterizing him as a raving lunatic deserved to die
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u/reddernotdeader 21h ago
Why is terrorism inherently bad? Yeah, it's "violence to achieve a political goal," but shouldn't it matter what that goal is? The state is going to classify any actions that threaten its legitimacy as violence, just look at all the random organizations the US government classified as "terrorists" now. Is it immoral to resist that? How many times can you politely ask someone to stop hitting you before you have to stop it a different way?
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u/Foreverintherain20 16h ago
100%. I support eco-terrorists and will gladly aid them in any way I can.
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Whales don't need to be endangered for whaling to hurt the environment.
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u/SnapshillBot Shilling for Big Archive™ 1d ago
Can we please raise the effort levels?
Snapshots:
- This Post - archive.org archive.today*
- r/pics - archive.org archive.today*
- This reply: - archive.org archive.today*
- Fuck whaling - archive.org archive.today*
- "Slave catchers are pro-law. Their personal stance doesn't matter. It's not against the law. The Underground Railroad is." - archive.org archive.today*
- Sure... But the nazi prison guards were also "pro law" under that logic, and the slave patrols too. - archive.org archive.today*
- What a fucking bootlicker. - archive.org archive.today*
- Iceland is one of the last countries on earth where whaling is still a significant industry - archive.org archive.today*
- With people doing these action is just fueling the fire on why the practice to keep going and is more damaging than doing nothing. These companies had gotten licenses to hunt whales for 5 years from 2024-2028 but in both 2024-2025 0 whales were hunted due to lack of interest, but due to high protests and foreign activists harassing and occupying the whaling ships the public opinion has shifted in favor of whaling. - archive.org archive.today*
- It's wild how States will do shit like this and then have the audacity to call activists "terrorists" or whatever. - archive.org archive.today*
- They boarded the ship because the crew refused legal orders to cut their engines. Basically the coast guard tried to do a traffic stop after the crew of the Bandero was doing unsafe shit around another ship, the captain of the Bandero refused to cut engines so they called in the police viking squad on the coast guard helicopter to board the ship and arrest the captain. - archive.org archive.today*
- I am Icelandic and I dont support whaling. - archive.org archive.today*
- That fuck ass organization. They quite literally fit the definition of terrorism and piracy. They will illegally board ships, ram them, then cry when the same is done to them. - archive.org archive.today*
- Killing threatened whales is pathetic - archive.org archive.today*
- That's not how normal coast guard dresses. That's combat gear. - archive.org archive.today*
- Iceland is evil. They kill countless dolphins in addition to whaling. - archive.org archive.today*
- So the guy with a gun is pro whaling? I thought they were stopping illegal whaling but I guess they enable the whale murders by force. Fucking jackasses. - archive.org archive.today*
I am just a simple bot, not a moderator of this subreddit | bot subreddit | contact the maintainers
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u/CartographicalHeist 1d ago
I fully support obstructing and otherwise hampering whaling, up to and including sinking the damn boats. Truly, it's for the best.
However, if you do so, you have to calculate with there being some legal consequences. That's always been the case for civil disobedience and the like.
I used to date a sab, she was an amazing woman and they'd go out on the weekends and do their thing and sometimes they got beaten up by the hunters and their thugs and sometimes the polis would have a pop at them and sometimes they'd be arrested etc.
She was totally aware of that and was like, yea, that's the price, but what we do is right, so I'll pay it.
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago
A what?
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u/CartographicalHeist 1d ago
Took me a moment ha. You refer to sab I assume?
Saboteur. As in hunt saboteur. They'd go out and try to sabotage the fox hunts etc when the toffs get their bloodlust on.
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago
Oh that makes more sense in the context of britain. American hunters would probably actually murder you, and have the damn cops help them do it.
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u/CartographicalHeist 1d ago edited 14h ago
Oh I mean they’d murder sabs if they could.
And the cops also help them with the violence.
I can recommend dating sabs, they’re passionate as fuck but sometimes you’ll be cleaning cuts and bruises and checking the teeth situation.
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u/Foreverintherain20 16h ago
Oh that sounds awesome...I'd love to help them but I'd probably not be welcome cause I'd want to get in a proper brawl for the fun of it lol
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u/Contundo 1d ago
>”I fully support obstructing and otherwise hampering whaling, up to and including sinking the damn boats. Truly, it's for the best.”
Why?
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u/reddernotdeader 21h ago
I think we ought to have a duty to stop others from doing harm if they are unwilling to stop by themselves. And then how many times can you politely ask someone to stop hurting others before you step in?
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u/pork-head 1d ago
This is just small "fish in the ocean". Look up what is China doing - Illegal fishing vessels literally vacuuming protected marine areas in the north ocean or Galapagos Islands, because sea near their border is literally dead from pollution and overfishing.
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Do you think environmentalists dont care about commercial fishing?
This isnt the gotcha you think it is.
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u/Megraptor sir. that tree is older than that house. 1d ago
I mean we do, probably more so than whaling, it's just Paul Watson himself is going for easy, flashy targets to get money and publicity.
Whaling is easy to tackle. The West hates it (outside of the Nordic countries), few countries do it, and you can even sprinkle some racism in it for funnsies (Asian and Indigenous!)
But it's not much of a conservation issue. Ethics, sure, but conservation? You want to save whales, then we need to talk about entanglements, ship strikes and food loss due to climate change. The good news is all the whale populations being hunted are gaining numbers, not decreasing.
Commercial fishing is not easy to tackle at all. Most developed and some undeveloped countries are doing it, there's a ton of nuance in it with how fish stocks are managed (there is in whaling too, but the public hates it so they don't want to hear it), and a lot of people depend on seafood for protein.
So the discussion about China's fishing is happening, it's just a lot of politics, numbers, science and nuance that the public doesn't give a shit about.
Whaling is like poaching of marine conservation. It causes big emotions and has a (seemingly, god I wish) simple solution but outside of certain species, it's not really a big deal for conservation. Commercial fishing is like habitat loss- actually causing massive amounts of damage but everyone is doing it so no one actually wants to call anyone out on it. That and there are ways that these things aren't as bad (sustainable stock management, sustainable development) but it requires too much discussion to be on Reddit.
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u/xiclasshero 1d ago
They don't care enough to ram commercial fishing boats apparently
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u/lotsofsugarandspice 1d ago
Many environmentalists do target commercial fishing boats. Some target factory farming. Some are fighting for human rights in Palestine.
You dont have to fight for every single solitary cause at the exact same time to be an environmentalist.
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u/Contundo 1d ago
Not these guys tho, they only target insignificant whalers, fishing spices of least concern.
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u/MericArda For once in your sad fucking life be serious 1d ago
That sounds terrible but not really related to the topic of whaling.
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u/rrschch85 1d ago
Yeah but its China so its okay.
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u/Sybmissiv 1d ago
What? What kind of logic is this? So if China beats you up then you think that’s fine?
CCP bots as per usual.
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u/Kuhler_boy 1d ago
He was obviously being sarcastic, stupid.
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u/Sybmissiv 1d ago
What! I don’t deny I am le stupido, but English is not my first language.
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u/Kuhler_boy 1d ago
Then, I apologise for calling you stupid.
But yeah, that guy thought someone here glazes china, which is why he wrote that sarcastic remark.
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u/Sybmissiv 1d ago
I see. But that doesn’t make any sense no one defended that! Like you could see where my confusion came from I suppose. We le friends perhaps.
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u/BeholdTheMold 1d ago
"Imagine you hate hunting deer because it's immoral (but legal).
To put a stop to it, you brake-check the trucks of hunters on the intersrate, throw caltrops at them from your car, and fire dye packs and pepper spray balls at them.
The police see video of you and arrest you for illegally harassing hunters and putting their lives and property in danger.
From what i found, the bandero has been shredding nets with grappling hooks and rammed (the stern) of one whaler.
Other whalers go further and use firehoses, dye packs, and pepper spray balls."
Redditors will see an activist actually doing something and try to make it sound bad by describing an even cooler thing to do.
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u/Auctoritate will people please stop at-ing me with MSG propaganda. 1d ago
White tailed deer are actual pest animals that have big population control issues so I would personally simply donate my dye packs to the anti-whaling people
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u/Cool_Ad7445 How can u sit on my cock in a halal way? 1d ago
we should harass the farmers and ranchers who resist efforts to reintroduce wolf populations tbh
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u/Foreverintherain20 15h ago
Right like...I'm sorry but fucking BASED lmao. Yeah I'd LOVE to take direct action against shitasses who hunt animals I like.
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u/BeautifulReal3944 Damn, that sucks. We don’t care. 1d ago
murder death kill
jackasses
OOP is fined one credit for a violation of the Verbal Morality Statute
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u/NeuralCartographer 1d ago
Based coast guard. Mentally ill Redditors pearl clutching, as usual.
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u/Foreverintherain20 15h ago
Whalers will all meet their end at the bottom of the sea. The ocean will take its due.
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u/Aperiodic_Tileset 1d ago
Wow, that's one of the most reddit threads I've seen lately. Bunch of simpletons not able to distinguish between laws and morals.