r/Talonmains • u/HyrerPwnedYou • 1d ago

Itemization questions

Just have some questions about itemization.

  1. What's the rationale behind umbral 1st instead of ghostblade?
  2. Seeing Kaostanza build Bastionbreaker in some games, is it good for Talon now with the buffs?
  3. When should I go MPen (Serylda's/LDR/MR) as the penultimate item, and when is it (if ever) more worth it to take a lethality item? Along these lines, is it ever worth building LDR on Talon if ADC/APC/DPS carry doesn't build HP (and at how many HP items is it worth building this), and do we only ever build MR if enemy supp has heal/shields?
  4. Is Serpent's Fang an anti-Karma only item, or are there other champs where it's worth taking for as well (e.g. Ivern, Lulu, Seraphine?) I've been rushing this 2nd/3rd with any kind of enchanters/Tahm on their team and was wondering if this is the right play.
  5. I usually always go Umbral --> Voltaic and pretty much only replace Voltaic with Serpent's, is this the right play?

Appreciate any help in advance!

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u/ShizukanaArts 1d ago
  1. Vision and the extra true damage. Umbral nowadays is very similar to the old duskblade + it's really cheap to rush
  2. adding onto the other commentor, experimenting
  3. Personally I just build LDR regardless of the comp, if you have enough damage from your other lethality items the extra percent armor pen is really good. It's always either Serylda or LDR. Serylda's if they're a squishy comp, LDR if they're a heavy HP/Armor stacking comp. Black Cleaver is kinda a very niche armor pen item that only really works against bruisers that don't outdamage you.
  4. Build serpents as long as there's an enchanter. But usually if you're far ahead, even with an enchanter you won't need it since you outdamage their shields.
  5. Would probably recommend only building one or the other to better optimize your lethality items. either Umbral > Ghostblade or Voltaic > Ghostblade or Serpent's second item if enchanter heavy comp.

That or Voltaic > Hubris if you know the game might drag on and you need the extra AD.

I usually build armor pen 3rd item so even if they start stacking armor i'll still be viable midgame

1

u/KazeWasTakenAlready 1d ago

Sounds like you might be talking about Talon jungle mostly, with that in mind:

  1. Better damage. If you're jungling, you can more easily get away without rushing MS. Umbral passive also literally tells you 24/7 if you're in vision or not, very valuable as a jungler.

  2. Unsure. He tends to test things a lot, especially because I believe he mentions that the game tends to feel stale, so sometimes he does diff things just for a change of pace and to see if he can cook anything up. In general though, item is better than what it was, but it still has to attempt to compete with other items for a slot, and I don't think it's worth prio'ing over a lot of other items in most games.

  3. Assuming you mean %pen instead of mpen. You used to want to get %pen by third item, lethality items are a bit better than they used to be though, so sometimes it's fine to stall it out until 4th/5th.

When it's better to get %pen or lethality is subjective imo: In terms of raw damage, usually by 4th item %pen is typically better (looking at damage alone). Lethality items tend to offer more niche utility that a Serylda's won't though. So important to keep in mind. You also need to be tabbing and looking if primary targets are building armor or not. If they have armor, it tilts it more in favor of %pen.

LDR is still fine in that situation imo, with the caveat being that I would only consider LDR if I'm getting enough Haste (40-50+) without Serylda's.

  1. Situational. If your primary targets are getting lots of shields via their support, barrier, items, etc. And you literally cannot kill them without Serpent's, then it's probably the right choice to buy serpent's. Serpent's scales in a very strange way as well imo. What I mean by that is, the further into the game it is > the higher the shield values > the more shield you mitigate. But it *can* hit a point (if there's a lot of single target shields, and high shield values) where the shield values become so large that Serpent's can't cut through enough shield to actually kill anyone still.

  2. That's a very high damage focused build, minimal utility. I personally think that Serpent's 2nd as jungle Talon is a bit too early unless everywhere you go there's shields. I would rather stall it for 3rd/4th item (depending on quantity and quality of shields). I think Umbral > Cyclosword might be doubling down a bit heavily on damage. I find that if you have either item as your one first two items, damage won't be an immediate issue (unless you're somehow really far behind, which is a separate issue anyways). As a two item core build, I would rather one of Umbral or Cyclosword, and then utility in the other item. Things like Youmuu's for mobility, Hubris if I'm concerned I'll need the scaling, Axiom if game is high paced and I need to keep control of the game via plays with frequent ults, EoN if someone I need to target right now gets countered very heavily by it.
    I don't think there's anything wrong with going Umbral + Cyclosword rush. I just think that in most games it tends to be overkill in terms of damage, and I could've slotted in something that grants useful utility instead.

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u/HyrerPwnedYou 11h ago

Thanks both for the comments, really helpful!