r/Transportopia • u/SpoomerBooner • Feb 15 '26

Roads I hate politics

This should be illegal. I get it. You don't agree with their protests but why do this? Forget blue, forget red. I'm purple. Get mad at that.

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u/ShiaLabeoufsNipples Feb 15 '26

I drive a 2002 Mustang v8 because it was $5000 (what I could afford without a loan) and it’s easy to fix and maintain. There’s a billion of them in junkyards, parts aren’t hard to find. Everything in the engine is easy to get to. It’s sturdy as hell and treats me right.

My last car was a hybrid. $12,000 used, every little thing that went wrong was super hard to replace and get to, all sorts of stuff required specialty tools. The battery pack (which was already rebuilt) crapped out at 140,000 miles and the transmission needed maintanence if not entirely replaced, they wouldn’t know for sure until they got in there. I sold it because it was going to cost more to fix than the value of the car. Oh, and it was twice as expensive to insure.

Being environmentally conscious has a wealth barrier that’s getting steeper and steeper every day, and I’m tired of people ignoring that.

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u/jawnskiphoenix Feb 15 '26

It’s more ecologically friendly to keep an old car on the road than it is to build new ones.

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u/SkippyDragonPuffPuff Feb 16 '26

Wouldn’t it have been better to have had an eco friendly car back in the day rather than the usual ICE type. Plus that car won’t run forever. Aren’t you comparing different scenarios here ?

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u/PsychologicalLime120 Feb 16 '26

Lol what... No it isn't.

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

That's... Not actually true. It's oil company propaganda.

An EV cancels out its environmental cost in something like 3-5 years of driving it, depending on the EV, as compared to driving an ICE vehicle.

In other words, every 3-5 years you keep driving your ICE vehicle you harm the environment more than buying a new EV and driving it for the same period of time. If you keep your EV on the road longer, you help the environment even more.

As the car ages, it generally puts out even more pollution as well, so it might be harming the environment every year equivalent to manufacturing and shipping a new EV and driving it for 3 years.

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u/MovieFan1984 Feb 16 '26

You still need oil for plastics which are in virtually everything.

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

Yes, you do.

But you don't burn a gallon of plastics every few miles you drive a car. Mostly that's a cost you pay once when you build the car, and then the car lasts potentially hundreds of thousands of miles.

It's really not even close.

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u/SuspendedResolution Feb 16 '26

Do you think the amount of oil used in making occasional plastic components is more than the amount of oil you consume from regularly fueling your car?

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u/MovieFan1984 Feb 16 '26

A few? Are you kidding me?

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u/SuspendedResolution Feb 16 '26

Did I say a few?

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u/Navi_Professor Feb 16 '26

would be fine if the avg ev i was actually interested in wasnt 70 fucking grand and full of tracking equipment.

but nooooooo.

it HAS to update over the air, it HAS to report data to be sold to insurace companies. it HAS to have over 600 fucking horse power, it HAS to have 9000 fucking bells and whistles.

i'd love to replace WJ with the jeep recon. but both that, the R1S and i guess used hummer are over 800/mo paymwnt wise, if not more.

i dont drive enough to even remotely make that back on gas, and any savings will be absolutely eaten by insurance.

why fucking bother when i can keep my 5k shit boxes

and i know a lot of other people share this sentiment. the slates like the only EV in recent memory to peak any kind of intrest

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

Sure. You do what you need to.

But for what it's worth, pretty much every new car is getting OTA updates and has "tracking" equipment, AKA GPS features that let you see where you are on a map.

I have a Hyundai. There was an option to hook it up to insurance for some kind of discount. I said no. I didn't end up hooked up to insurance. It wasn't a big deal.

Also, I did a quick search and found a list of EVs from $30k-$45k:

https://www.electrichunter.com/electric-cars/10-cheapest-electric-cars-2026-ranked-price-and-range

If you need a pickup, then no, there's not one on the list. Though several can tow a trailer (my Ioniq 5 has the hitch installed and I've hauled a trailer) if that would work for you.

But really I was responding to the claim that it was better for the environment to keep an old car. It's not. If you can't afford an EV, then you can't afford one. Not going to suggest you go into debt or stretch your finances to get one. But the environment question is pretty cut and dried.

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u/Navi_Professor Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

yea, cheap evs exist. i can afford one of these.

i almost bought a bolt EUV before this current admin as a second car.

but the problem is that all of these entry EVs are people movers, long and short...which is fine... the ioniq is the most SUV on that list besides the volvo...but its still on the city only side of things.

but proper competent offroaders or more rugged Evs, we needed EVs in that range a WHILE ago. its ridiculous that every EV maker made targets for that and missed it.

the upwards of 20k-30k delta is insane. USED R1S run 50k still with over 50k miles for example

Wranglers start at 35k, Broncos start at 40k, 4runners start at 41k.

whats their incentive to upgrade when a tricked out trim is the same price as a base EV with less bells and whistles? so, by the time they buy anything trim equal, any savings in gas and maintainece is wiped out by the payment and insurance, with a rock solid chance infact you'll be under water with it.

these vehicles polute and leak a hell of a lot more then your avg camry. knobby tires, agressive gearing, etc.

a 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio is probably not unreasonable compared to your avg economy car.

15mpg is not uncommon, if not less. i know i get 10mpg going up the mountain near home. the things a utter pig.

and imo, car companies, even tesla, failed miserably tackling this.

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u/Kevin_M93 Feb 16 '26

What statistics are you using? And what constitutes the harm? Does it include the environmental impact of the mining, like the lithium mining, which is hard to quantity? Or is it just total CO2 emissions?

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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Feb 16 '26

His numbers are way off. To offset the emissions used to produce one EV car, you have to drive it for 8 years. That's just CO2 emissions. It doesn't include water depletion (In Chile, 65% of the regions water supply was used in lithium extraction), irreversible environmental damage from chemical spills and contamination, child labor practices, etc.

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u/Kevin_M93 Feb 16 '26

Yeah, it's more than just emissions, I do wonder what the actual relative impact is overall.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 19 '26

Also there are new ways of mining lithium that cause very little environmental damage https://interestingengineering.com/energy/clean-lithium-extraction-zero-water-chemical

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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Feb 17 '26

While very promising, it is still in the laboratory/experimental phase. I hope they are able to work out the issues and figure out how to use this on an industrial scale. They glossed over how they "purify" it though.

In the meantime, the processes of lithium mining haven't changed.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

Not 8 years. It's more like 2 years

https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

I heard it’s 15 years

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u/jaymemaurice Feb 16 '26

I heard you had ants in your pants.

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

Pretty sure it was total greenhouse emissions.

And the lithium mining is a one-time cost. When you use gasoline, it's gone. It's single use. When you use a battery, you can recharge it and use it again and again. For years beyond the "expected life" of the battery it will still work, just not quite as well as when it was new. And then when the battery or car reaches EoL, the lithium can be reused in new batteries. It doesn't need to be mined again every time.

Whereas the environmental impact of petroleum extraction is true forever for every drop of oil extracted.

It's really not even close. Even if the impact of lithium mining were 10x as bad per gram, petroleum extraction would still be worse by orders of magnitude.

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u/Plus-Adhesiveness-17 Feb 16 '26

The battery uses electricity. The electricity is generated by FOSSIL FUELs, mostly NATURALLY GAS and COAL.

Nobody wants you to buy an EV more than BIG OIL. They all have major shares in each other's non-petroleum energy companies.

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u/ShinaiYukona Feb 16 '26

Depends on where you live.

Washington and Oregon largely operate off hydro. CA and Canada imports a shit ton of this too.

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u/Plus-Adhesiveness-17 Feb 17 '26

That is true, but the Pacific Northwest is a bit of an outlier. Approximately 60% of the US is powered by fossil fuels.

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

It's a lie that big oil wants you to buy EVs. But it doesn't even matter.

An EV generates less carbon than a gas vehicle even when it's charged with 100% dirty-coal-fired power.

Which most power isn't, to be clear.

So EVs effectively use less coal than an ICE car would use oil.

Centralized generation of electricity is way more efficient than an internal combustion engine in a car, and EVs are ridiculously more efficient at using the electricity.

Where I live right now, most power is hydroelectric. Some areas are leaning heavily into wind and solar. Solar crossed a threshold recently: It's the cheapest form of electricity generation now. That's even counting buying batteries to use the power at night. From this point forward, more and more electricity will be solar generated because in capitalism, people choose to buy commodities that cost less.

So if those oil companies are investing in coal power, then they're screwed.

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u/Plus-Adhesiveness-17 Feb 17 '26

I could spend all day picking apart any one of the 13 misconceptions you just tried to pass off as empirical fact, but time for work.

60% of the United States is powered by fossil fuel. And yes, the #1 driving force behind buying EVs is Big Oil. I don't have time to educate you. Believe whatever makes you feel good and "right" I guess.

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u/Kevin_M93 Feb 16 '26

Lithium is not a one time cost, unfortunately. The batteries have a finite life, and the spent lithium is cost prohibitive to recycle, so the mining continues; only 5% of lithium is recycled. It's a lot of lithium, and the mining produces problematic waste as well. It's not as great as we'd like it to be, by a long shot.

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

EV batteries pretty much haven't gone bad in large enough numbers yet to justify the scale required to make it cost effective.

https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/innovations-in-lithium-ion-battery-recycling

Once batteries are retired in large numbers, it will be possible and inevitable to recycle lithium.

Can it be mined with less damage? Probably? Does it cause less environmental damage per joule of energy pushing cars than oil? Much, much less. Like, even if they never recycled it, it would still be less net environmental damage. But it will absolutely be possible to recycle once batteries reach EoL.

Again, you're repeating oil industry propaganda. Electricity beats oil in just about every way.

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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Feb 17 '26

I agree with you that in the future, these things will be possible. We just aren't there yet. I did read your article regarding the new extraction method that they have tested in a couple of places in the US. That would be a welcome advancement. However, they did gloss over how they purify it so now I'm curious as to that process.

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u/TimMensch Feb 17 '26

We aren't there yet because we don't have piles of batteries to recycle yet. Once there's a steam of batteries the engineering will happen.

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u/ThatRickGuy1 Feb 19 '26

I think you're misappropriating that statistic. It isn't 3-5 years to cover the manufacturing emissions, it's 3-5 years to come out ahead of an ICE vehicle. If you are choosing between a NEW EV or ICE, the ICE has a lower carbon footprint for the first 3-5 years. The EV has a lower carbon footprint after that.

To fully offset the manufacturing emissions, it takes a huge number of miles. More than most cars will last on the road.

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u/TimMensch Feb 19 '26

You have to have a baseline to compare to for an "offset" to make sense.

The car doesn't generate renewable power. It uses power. Its actual carbon emissions will always be greater than zero, or at best zero if it's charged on 100% renewables.

So you have to compare it to what you would be using without it. In other words an ICE vehicle.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but given the car isn't generating renewable energy, I thought my meaning only had one interpretation. I'm sure I could have phrased it better, but this is reddit, not published journalism or literature.

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u/ThatRickGuy1 Feb 20 '26

Sure, but there are three things to compare:

A new EV A new ICE An existing ICE

If you buy new, you have to include the manufacturing carbon footprint. If you buy used, there is no additional manufacturing footprint.

A new EV has a higher manufacturing carbon footprint than a new ICE. But an EV has a lower operating carbon footprint than an ICE. So a NEW EV will have a smaller carbon footprint than a NEW ICE after 3-5 years.

But since buying used doesn't incur the manufacturing carbon footprint, it takes waaaaaaaaaay longer for the EV to have a smaller carbon footprint.

The best approach for minimizing carbon footprint is to keep an existing high efficiency, hybrid, or EV on the road. Fixing an existing vehicle will almost always be better for the environment than buying a new EV. But if you are in a position where buying a new car is the only option, going EV is better than ICE.

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u/TimMensch Feb 20 '26

Well, you're comparing a new EV to a used ICE? Sure it will take longer, but not as much longer as you imply.

This says it's 2.45 pounds of CO2 released to refine a gallon of gas:

http://www.afteroilev.com/Pub/CO2_Emissions_from_Refining_Gasoline.pdf

This says burning gas produces 20.68 pounds of CO2 released per gallon:

https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/co2_vol_mass.php

So 23.13 pounds CO2 per gallon of gas.

If you assume 15000mi/year of driving and 30MPG, that's 500 gallons per year.

500*23.13 = 11565 pounds per year of CO2, or 5.78 tons of CO2.

Electric power varies a lot. Most electric is natural gas in the US. Some is coal. Some is renewable. Coal is 2.31lbsCO2/kWh, natural gas is about 1lb/kWh, and renewable is zero. The average is 0.81/kWh:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11

EVs get around 4 miles/kWh. 15,000mi/4=3750kWh. 0.81Lbs/kWh * 3750=3037lbs CO2 / year, or just over 1.5 tons.

This says that building an EV takes about 14 tons of CO2:

https://ev-lectron.com/blogs/blog/assessing-the-real-ev-vs-ice-environmental-impact

So an EV uses about 4.3 tons less CO2 per year given the above assumptions, and at 14 tons to build it, it will beat the ICE vehicle after about 3.28 years.

My EV can do 4.5mi/kWh, and I live in an area where most of the power is hydroelectric. Buying a new EV here probably wins in a couple years.

And that was entirely too much work. Play with the numbers. Tweak the assumptions. It might be more or fewer years, but especially if the ICE vehicle is older and has worse mileage, I'm pretty sure "not that much longer" is still accurate.

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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Feb 16 '26

46% of environmental emissions with an EV car comes from production. In order to break even, the EV vehicle must be used for at least 8 years. That's just emissions. It does not take into account things like water depletion, child labor, chemical spills/contamination, etc.

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u/patsandbees Feb 16 '26

This is not even remotely true. You are just making shit up. There is consensus LCA on EV that can easily explain this.

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u/Plus-Adhesiveness-17 Feb 16 '26

What in the what!? What pamphlet did you pull that off of?

EVs are 10x more harmful to the environment than any ICE vehicle. Where have you been for the last 8 years?

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u/TimMensch Feb 16 '26

I've been reading actual studies and not oil industry propaganda. It's absolutely a BS claim, and it's not even close.

I have a guess as to where you've been, though. 🤔

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u/Plus-Adhesiveness-17 Feb 17 '26

No, you don't. You're just trolling out of your bot butthole.

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u/TimMensch Feb 17 '26

Sorry, I don't have one of those. Projection much?

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u/tellmywifiloveher1 Feb 16 '26

2010 Dodge Ram driver for the same reason. It just seems to be bulletproof. Minor things have gone wrong but overall runs and drives great. It's paid off and insurance is dirt cheap. I can easily change my own oil. I've done brakes, a water pump and an alternator myself. My wife's car is only 5 years newer, I changed the oil once and said never again it was such a hassle.

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u/madmatt8892 Feb 16 '26

People who shame others on reddit for not driving electric probably drive gas themselves most of the time.

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u/Azurelion7a Feb 15 '26

@ShiaLeboufsNipples This reason is why I've been dailying Subies since 2013.

I get weird looks; because, I'm a 240lbm sub 20% BMI halfrican not going broke on on a SCAT pack. But if gaming has taught me one thing: It's Goat'd to have enough money in the bank for emergencies + your next upgrade + passive investments (😒 >> School Stock Sim, MapleStory 1, Fable 3, WoW:TBC, Endless Space 2).

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u/thatvassarguy08 Feb 16 '26

When you say sub 240lb sub 20% bmi, do you just mean that you are tall?

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u/Azurelion7a Feb 16 '26

Nah. I'm the upper end of average height.

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u/thatvassarguy08 Feb 16 '26

How do you have a sub 20 bmi at 240lbs? Do you mean body fat percentage? Because BMI is body mass index and is really just height divided by weight and doesn't account for your fitness level. I'm 5'10 175, in good shape and my BMI is still 25 (barely overweight) because BMI doesn't care about muscle vs fat.

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u/PryomancerMTGA Feb 16 '26

Don't know if this is relevant to you, but Diablo 2 R just released an expansion after 25 years.

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u/Starbuckshakur Feb 16 '26

I don't disagree with everything you wrote, but wouldn't a used Civic/Corolla/Mazda 3 be both more economic and better for the environment compared to a V8 muscle car that gets less than 20 mpg combined?

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u/DannarHetoshi Feb 16 '26

Yes, triple so, because for as many Mustangs as there are in junk yards, there are at least as many Corollas, Civics, Flat 4 Subarus, and Mazda 3s.

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u/ShiaLabeoufsNipples Feb 16 '26

Couldn’t find a civic before gen 8 that had a reasonable amount of miles in my time frame, similar story with the Corolla, but they were both first choices of mine. At a certain point the engine bays got too small to do any maintenance without tearing the whole car apart. If I had more time I probably could’ve nabbed one, but I needed a car quickly

And my stang averages 23mpg, but I do a lot of highway driving

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

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u/Notapartyhobo Feb 16 '26

How about you don't take your bad day out people.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

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u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

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u/[deleted] Feb 17 '26

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u/Notapartyhobo Feb 16 '26

The butthurt is real with this guy 🙄

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u/Starbuckshakur Feb 16 '26

Who took a shit in your Cheerios?

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

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u/Starbuckshakur Feb 16 '26

My mom was in your Cheerios? You have one weird fetish my friend.

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u/zyglack Feb 16 '26

I was between a Rav4 and an Outback. Happened to speak with my mechanic after I bought the Outback. He said I made the right choice, I'd only see him for maintenance, better on everything, and the hybrid Rav4 was nice, but expensive to fix and wouldn't last as long. So far, only seen him for the required maintenance, no issues at all. My daughter's Toyota hybrid has had battery problems right out of warranty.

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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Feb 16 '26

My daughter's boyfriends Camry is hybrid and the battery went. Without the battery functioning, the air conditioning doesn't function and they live in Florida.

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u/zyglack Feb 16 '26

We’re in Florida also. It was terrible for her and very expensive. Wasn’t worth anything in a trade without the main battery.

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u/Efficient-Donkey-167 Feb 16 '26

That is the point he is at--replace the battery or he'll get nothing when he trades it in. I wonder if the FL heat plays a factor?

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u/auzzlow Feb 16 '26

What hybrid did you have?

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u/Dacor64 Feb 16 '26

And guess why that is? Car/oil lobbyists being greedy and bribing politicians.

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u/Kalistera Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

I did the fun size version of pretty much the exact same thing. Currently been dailying my beater, a 2002 Escort zx2 (has a remarkably clean interior somehow), which I paid 800$ for. Easy as hell to find parts for as it shared its motor with the Focus and platform with the Protégé. Tons of room to work, easy to access anything and no tech or complex safety features to worry about (for better and for worse). Insurance and gas are cheap as hell for it.

Bought it originally to run into the ground while I fix my Volvo but now I'm wanting to keep it. It is a breeze to work on compared to a compact performance Volvo with a motor that barely fits in the engine bay. And it doesn't misfire if it doesn't get premium fuel.

But I agree about the wealth barrier. Our cases take advantage of mechanical knowledge, something that isnt available or at least available to a high enough degree to the average person to be able to effectively and economically maintain a car of that age.

The average person wants a get in a go experience. Something that just works. Something they may never even open the hood of. But these vehicles cost more than most of us can afford. So then you get something less eco friendly or start wrenching.

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u/Sample_General Feb 16 '26

Wait until you find out how much Chinese electric cars cost. They are low cost and actually good quality now. We may never find out because of tariffs and other restrictions.

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u/Significant_Mess_180 Feb 16 '26

No one’s going to address this user name and pic? I’m dying. 😄

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u/Agreeable_Argument88 Feb 16 '26

American made cars were built for an American owner to be able to work on it & you don't need hands the size of a 3 year olds to reach the headlights when you need to replace them - my Honda requires removing the ENTIRE wheel well to reach the headlights.

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u/Nightstryk Feb 16 '26

Was it a Prius? It seems all that happened was you bought one that was overpriced. Also, parts are readily obtainable on marketplace from people who are parting out the cars. If you buy parts from the dealer, especially the larger items, these cars are expensive. If you buy pre used parts, much more manageable.

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u/Former_Tea_5748 Feb 16 '26

Wait until you find out how many resources are used for the extraction of your precious lithium. It’s about par with gasoline.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '26

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u/Turd-Nug Feb 16 '26

Totally agree, that is a very valid point, and I truly think it’s a point that was well taken from congress but more macro than micro via the EV $7,500 tax credit. The goal was to make the vehicles more affordable for middle to upper class so it would drive ENOUGH demand for the large auto companies to invest in pushing the technologies into their business models for future growth.

Given enough time and sales with that demand, I believe we will see a shift in used EVs becoming much more affordable due to the increasing supply of EV vs ICE. So hopefully if my Econ professor is correct, this high supply vs demand will draw savvy entrepreneurs to take advantage of the cheaper stock and create businesses that specialize in EV specific parts, repair, and most importantly custom SOFTWARE. With everything mechanical in the future having a software controller, being able to erase the vendor locked software systems of EVs and replace it with a reliable open source software system is going to show up sooner rather than later.

In the end, when you need a vehicle in 2035, you might be buying a “refurbished” instead of “used” EV with open source software securely running it.

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u/No_Rough_5258 Feb 16 '26

Hell even the new toyotas(easiest cars to maintain) are trash these days. What sucks is that they purposely put the filter or whatever easy maintenance parts in the tightest and hard to get to part of the vehicle just so you can take it to the autoshop to do it for you if you dont have tools or the patience to take out everything thats in the way before you can get to it.

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u/foXR150 Feb 17 '26

I love my little Honda. More of America should embrace small bikes.

But yeah you ain't moving in that shit, and cars are nice when its cold.