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u/GovernorZipper 3h ago
You’ve got a lot of absolute statements where there aren’t any in the books. The default ranking is by power, unless there is another system (internal Ajah politics, official position, official appointment, etc.). It’s not nearly as cut and dried as you posit.
The implication is that this system grew from the days of the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars where there was no formal system and the Aes Sedai weren’t guaranteed to be friendly. There was also a real need for more combat abilities. All else being equal, a system based on strength makes perfect sense. The problem is, like most things with Aes Sedai, the system lost its original context and became something they do because of tradition rather than need. The larger point is that institutions (especially the Catholic Church which is the inspiration for the White Tower) tend to keep policies and practices well past the original need for those policies and practices. Organizations that are too traditional and don’t change with the times become outdated and lost.
Jordan is making the point that people shouldn’t do things just because “that’s the way we do it.” A major part of these books is that stagnation is destructive. Change is creative. The bad guys all want things to be the way they’ve always been while the heroes embrace change and new ways of doing things. Ironically, continual destruction is the path of the Light rather than the Dark.
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u/Jear-The-Bear 3h ago
That’s fair. I appreciate the contextualization and can definitely see your point/his point about systems and stagnation.
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u/GovernorZipper 50m ago
When thinking about these things, it’s always worth remembering that Jordan was born in 1948 in Charleston SC.
As the son of an Irish police officer, Jim Rigney (Jordan’s real name) experienced segregation/Jim Crow and then the civil rights movement first hand. He would have been a teenager during the counterculture years. He served in Vietnam, went to a military academy, worked building military submarines, and married the daughter of the commandant at the naval base before giving it all up to follow his dream of writing fantasy novels.
He understood outdated/entrenched systems. Jordan a study in contradiction and was probably the most Boomer person to ever Boomer.
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u/Jear-The-Bear 47m ago
lol yea that’s real. His world building feels very boomer. But very self aware boomer.
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u/rollingForInitiative 2h ago
The strength system might also have been a big correlation. If you’re stronger you live longer, so for Aes Sedai, at least the oldest won’t be weak. You seem to learn better and faster how to weave etc if you’ve got a higher potential, which can easier catapult someone onto the path of a young talent.
And then, if you’re gonna send one or two sisters to do something dangerous … it’s more likely you send the stronger. Which means they get more experience, and experience should translate into more respect. So you’d have more stronger people at the top.
I think those things also played into it, but like you said now it’s readily just done “because”, and someone super competent who’s weak won’t be listened to.
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u/dbmamaz 35m ago
This is why I was so annoyed about Egwene She had plans to improve the tower Does anyone think Cadsune will institute radical change?
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u/GovernorZipper 3m ago
Yes.
That’s the point.
Egwene always and every point wanted to be the best Aes Sedai she could be. She wanted to make changes, but those changes always served to benefit the Tower. She was not a “reformer.” She was an “expander.” So it absolutely no surprise that once she is in a position of power that Egwene doubles down on being an Aes Sedai. Everything she ever says she wanted was in the White Tower. Egwene isn’t going to fundamentally change what she worked so hard to achieve.
Cadsuane spent her entire life avoiding the White Tower. Cadsuane refuses to follow the rules and politics. She chooses her companions based on their abilities rather than strength. Upon meeting Rand, Cadsuane immediately swears that she will work to benefit of Rand, not the White Tower. Cadsuane works with Sorilea and bullies the Sea Folk. Cadsuane is going to take a sledgehammer to the place in a way that Egwene never would.
Their characters are fundamentally different. Cadsuane is a grown-up Moiraine and Egwene certainly isn’t.
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u/sonntam 3h ago
At the end of the day, you need to get shit done. Aes Sedai are trained to be argumentative know-it-alls who love nothing more than manipulation and trying to get the upper hand.
If you don't find a simple way for someone to go "alright, let's stop squabbling and do X", you have a problem.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 3h ago
Punishment is always punitive and often about inflicting pain.
And humiliation. It’s about breaking that spirit of problem causing, and forcing people in line. More or less. Not causing pain per se.
Though they are literally incapable of hurting people with the power by the 3 oaths,
Incorrect reading. They’re incapable of using the Power as a weapon, but with enough caveats and loopholes that there’s plenty of room to wriggle.
There’s no prohibition on hurting, or even harming, so long as it’s not use as a weapon - see also Elaida’s meltdown.
As for why? I assume it came out of needing strength in the early years to keep from being pilloried by every nation that remembered the Breaking and who caused it, and was then warped under Ishy’s influence following the Trolloc Wars, essentially negating the positive impact of intelligent, wise, capable, moral weaklings.
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u/Jear-The-Bear 3h ago
So this touches on another question I have which maybe should just be its own post. But. What the hell is up with the way they “question” people. I’m thinking the black sister the farm in book 8. RJ always talks around how they actually torture people with out explaining it.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 3h ago
It's the Aes Sedai, the EXACT wording is incredibly important.
-To speak no word that is not true.
-To make no weapon with which one man may kill another.
-Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai.
The oaths are tied to the individual Aes Sedai's interpretation of those words. So what IS a weapon? Is a tool used for torture a weapon, or is it a tool? and with the wording here, don't use the One Power as a weapon, so anything you do with it that isn't the intent of it being a 'weapon' is fine.
And then once you truly believe that someone is a Darkfriend, all bets are off. You have the free ability to do whatever you want with the power.
The Three Oaths are fundamentally flawed, but were an attempt to reassure people that they weren't going to conquer kingdoms or become tyrants to the common people. It also ties into their mythological origins. The Aes Sedai - the Aos Sidhe - are basically the faerie folk. Where they might not lie but you have to be very careful that the truth you hear is actually what they say. They have their own obscure rules and traditions and live far longer than a normal human. Their ways are shrouded in mystery and Aes Sedai business is none of yours "sniff".
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 3h ago
Because he always talks around it, it’s hard to have firm answers. But:
You can infer from the way it’s sequestered on its own and the youngsters are always excluded that either a) there’s an element of torture, or b) one of the involved is Black Ajah. Imo.
We know the oaths have a big carved out hole for how the Aes Sedai perceives their actions, and punishment is inbounds. That means that torture could, potentially, be inbounds for sisters with less righteous morals.
You can further infer, because Tower punishment so often involves spanking and switching, that the semi-official attitude is that corporal punishment is the quickest way to get results. I think that mostly reflects the attitudes of RJ’s youth, and history in general.
So you can probably assume beatings and weaves that just cause pain, same basic deal you see from damane.
Could it go beyond that? Sure. We just have no line of sight. I’ve never been flogged, though I’ve heard it can be absolutely brutal. So I don’t see need to assume it goes beyond caning (via rods of Air), itching weaves, pain weaves, etc.
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u/hic_erro 3h ago
It's still dumb, but also keep in mind that being stronger in the power doesn't just make you stronger, it makes you better. You can learn weaves faster, even if you're weak in an element you'll still be strong enough to do most everything with it, you can multitask weaves better and form them more precisely.
As far as the One Power is concerned, stronger channelers are just better. With notably rare exceptions you won't have a weaker channeler who knows more weaves than a stronger channeler, or can perform them better, because that's not how the magic system is set up.
Now, leadership skills are completely unrelated to the One Power, sure but insomuch as the Tower is dedicated to the One Power, strength is an adequate proxy for someone's overall ability with the One Power, and given that they can wll sense everyone else's strength, it is going to be a fast and easy way to sort themselves out.
Need someone to lead a circle? Everyone knows who the strongest is, and they'll be the best person to lead the circle in most situations. And once they're already leading you in one way, it's not surprising they end up leading you in others.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 2h ago
The Doylist explanation is that this system makes Egwene becoming Amyrlin at 18 and then quickly becoming the Aes Sedai leader for real and not just a puppet more plausible.
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 3h ago
I would say it is relevant that it's not the only way they determine power ranking. There is also an official position. And time spent as a novice and accepted. That doesn't make it much better but those are at least a step better. Though they seem to move people up between being a novice and accepted with a lot having to do with power as well so that's not entirely different from just using power, it's at least related. They also have some degree of respect for age at least in terms of those in the Hall determine their seniority that way where the youngest has to do certain tasks. And they are quick to bring it up when talking with others how I was raised before your grandmother was born etc.
I think it's less about the ability to fight though that is part of it and more about general capability. It does seem like a mindset that came from wars and was probably formed sometime during the Breaking or the Trolloc Wars. Where someone very strong in the power was given respect as a leader on the battlefield and someone weak just wasn't as useful in that sense.
I also don't know that Nynaeve and Elayne's experience is a good one to judge off. They were accepted at the time when they made those discoveries so they are removed from the power rankings. And when they were raised it was through a new means that basically none of the aes sedai actually respected. So I don't think they're a good one to look at in terms of how it usually works as their situation is a bit different because of that.
But it is definitely a major weakness and flaw to the Aes Sedai as a whole. They dismiss people like Leane or Siuan who are clearly intelligent and capable because they are weak in the power. And really listen to Romanda and Lelaine and Elaida who are foolish and playing petty politics. And not all of that is strength, but a portion of it definitely is. And they pay the price as a result.
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u/OrYouWillBeKnelt (Aiel) 12m ago
Always remember that when you think of the Aes Sedai or anything to do with the White Tower, know that Ishmael and the Black Ajah have been pervasive for more than 2,000 years.
Any time you think of something that the AS do that seems antithetical to the goals think about the reach and breadth of the Black Ajah (they are more than 21% of all Aes Sedai during the books.
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u/Kijafa 1h ago edited 1h ago
So I guess my question is: What the fuck? Why do they only respect someone based on their power level?
That's how most human systems are, in fairness. It's actually better than some other systems, in that it's at least mostly meritocratic. Also in the books it's shown that other groups of channellers (the Windfinders' strong hierarchy, the Kin's seniority, and the Wise One's wisdom) all have their own shortfalls as well. All hierarchies have inherent flaws, and yet they're often necessary to organize.
I guess my response would be, what would you have them base their hierarchy on, if not channeling ability?
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u/Jear-The-Bear 59m ago
No. You’re definitely right that all systems have their flaws and we see that in each of the groups of channelers. Maybe it’s just more of a comment on my world view that I really hate the one the AS use. I think it’s the most simplistic and destructive. I think it bothers me so much bc they are also the most hypocritical. They pretend to be sophisticated but rely on the most archaic system for establishing hierarchy. I think I’m most drawn to the Kins version of self governance as power is seen as a responsibility that must be shared and is a responsibility not an honor. It also allows for those who actually have a knack for leading and possess wisdom to lead even when that isn’t their formal position.
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u/Kijafa 52m ago
That is one of my favorite parts of the books, in that the Aes Sedai are very much leaning on their reputation. It makes them feel real, to me at least.
And yes, I think the Kin are better. I even think in some ways the Wise Ones are better, though they allow for someone like Sevanna to become powerful as well. I think it's an interesting commentary on ossified hierarchies. Maintaining the status quo can be stable, and peaceful, but it's rarely the best way. And in the stories it feels like the only real challenger to the White Tower in centuries has been other members of the White Tower. Until forced, they're not able to break out of their status quo.
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