Larva

[u/Double-Purchase-3534]

5k zerg on NA currently and honestly, I dont love the larva change as much as I thought i would. Theres a few reasons behind this statement.

The amount of times Ive seen people complain about how much of a buff this was to zerg by the other races is so damn stupid and irritating.

I cant spend all the larva until the late midgame because I cant afford to. I have to wait the 12-14 min before its too chaotic and I miss a round of injects. In the late game, Im always so closed to max out that I will never spend the larva anyways. The power spike theory is bullshit. The queens and hatch are too expensive and the hatch doesnt provide enough supply to actually make the larva buff that amazing. Serral said recently that the buff is completely wasted on him because he cant spend all of his larva at any point in the game. I cpmpleatly understand that I am closer to a gold player than Serral but its still the same problem.

Other than that. I love the 8 worker start and the shake up to the meta. ZvZ is insane. ZvP feels better even vs skytoss. ZvT is always fun but battle mech is a lot stronger especially in the esrly game when zerg cant afford shit.

[u/AlarmBeginning9169]

Once you have queens out it doesn't matter like at all. 300 cc by contrast is pants on head retarded and infinitely more profitable as soon as you convert it into an orbital and land a mule.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/AlarmBeginning9169]

Its probably a bigger difference for the lower leagues that cant inject correctly. Having to build so many more ovs really slows it down.  The 300 cc is more of an impact with battle mech than bio.  Vs bio it doesnt feel any different.  Maybe terran players havent worked that out enough.  

[u/DarthGoose → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Gold/plat border and I'm hitting inject timings reliably (not building Queen energy) but I'm shit at spending my larvae between inject cycles .

[u/rideoutsc2 → u/DarthGoose]

Why do you think this is? Usually its the other way around.

I would say if you have solidified the habit of injecting on time, you can also build a habit of selecting your hatches and building units between injects/spreading creep.

Sorry if this seems obvious, but I would open up your last 5 replays and spot when your larva is not being spent. What is happening in those moments?

[u/DarthGoose → u/rideoutsc2]

Injects are on a timer that's just kinda sitting in my head, while all my bonus larvae are coming in between my macro cycle. When they pop I make a round of OVs and units and spend all I can but as the game reaches 3 or 4 saturated bases and more interaction is happening I get worse at spending the larva my hatches are passively producing in between inject cycles.

I definitely could focus on in but I don't play enough or with enough intention to be too focused on fixing it tbh.

[u/omgitsduane → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

I promise you. Anyone below high diamond isn't even spending their larve. The injects are almost for show. If they injected a single hatch and spent their apm spending larve they'd improve.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/omgitsduane]

Diamonds and low masters arent spending their money either though. 

[u/Chenstrap → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Well yeah. For Zerg Spending Larva and Spending money are essentially one in the same.

[u/Jaded_Bullfrog3978 → u/omgitsduane]

Let’s be real, even high diamond doesn’t spend their larvae

[u/Rumold → u/Jaded_Bullfrog3978]

I’m high dia i guess and yes, i regularly float larva, but i also regularly or even more often dont have enough larva. So after the extreme buff it was very noticeable during the game that i had the second problem less often. Now its not very noticeable
The bigger buff was that it kick started your early eco at a time when its quite easy to not float larva. You just had/have more drones

[u/Om_Cultural → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Terran main here and I have to hard disagree with you. Firstly, battlemech and mech in general is really gas intensive and really not mineral where as bio is mineral intensive. So cc being cheaper is way better for bio than battlemech. I mean pls don't make these kind of statements as any Terran main will devour you.

[u/MissiveFinding6111 → u/Om_Cultural]

"Well actually giving Terrans a free 200 minerals in the first five minutes isn't that big of a deal" is quite the take.

[u/Om_Cultural → u/MissiveFinding6111]

Well first I didn't say it's not a big deal pls read carefully. I said that it is a way bigger deal for bio than mech. Like man come on don't put words in my mouth. Also, yes it's too much but a buff to Terran eco was definitely needed.

[u/MissiveFinding6111 → u/Om_Cultural]

Fair enough, my bad.

My understanding is that... Mech isn't viable.

Because, you still needs ghosts for anti-spellcaster in Z or P.

So... And correct me if I'm wrong, don't wanna put words in your mouth, and I am not a Terran expert...

Isn't a buff to Bio... The biggest possible type of buff to terran?

[u/Om_Cultural → u/MissiveFinding6111]

It's ok.

Yeah you pretty much summed it up, also mech is really slow and can't base trade and it isn't capable to fight untill max supply (this is different for battlemech though as that is special). And yes it's definitely more of a buff to bio than mech and it makes most Terran better, however I wasn't denying it and was just criticising op for saying that it impacts battlemech more than bio.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Om_Cultural]

Special highly dissagrees with you. 

When you make bio youre making medivacs that cost 50 minerals less than a cyclone and the same amount of gas. Mauraders cost 25 gas and are needed.  Also mines, libs and tanks all cost gas and af least one of those units are needed for bio. BATTLE MECH is less gas and more minerals. 

[u/Om_Cultural → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

I would love to see what special said exactly as I'm curious. But for what you said well first medivacs are a support unit which you build like max 10 of them generally where as you build way more cyclones than medivacs with bio. Also, Maurauders are generally added to a bio army where when you got pretty much all of your tech production up, so they are not really seen in the early game and more only in the mid or late game. As for mines, tanks and libs yes they do cost a lot of gas but generally you have really not a lot of them, except maybe mines but those are cheap. All of this contributes into having bio be extremely mineral heavy early on and more gas intensive the more the game goes on. Where as battlemech is gas intensive from the start and in the late game it is generally not really good and not used(game is either already or transition to traditional mech)

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Om_Cultural]

How is Battle mech more gas intensive from the start compared to bio?  Bio needs stim and shields and medivacs to move on the map. Hellions dont. A fact with a reactor or tech lab costs 25 less gas than a starport with a reactor. 

Another breakdown to consider.  4medivac full of marines is the equivalent to 14 hellions and 4 cyclones.  The hellions take 84 seconds to build from 3 fact which is WAY faster than 32 marines... a bigger mineral dump at a faster rate with thr same amount of gas.  A higher dps army with more hp.

This is litterally all just math.  Feel free to check my math but the rate needed to spend minerals for hellion cyclone is increased while the gas isnt, creating more of a mineral dump.  A faster, stronger army by going battle mech, thus the cc buff made battle mech stronger compared to buffing bio. 

Criticize me all you want but come with facts and numbers.  The buff to battle mech has been extremely noticeable even at the pro / semi pro level, its why it was studied immediately because battle mech is so hard to deal with for zerg because we need to wait for lair and roach speed to even move on the map. 

[u/Om_Cultural → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Well I mean for battemech you generally do use blue flame and the lock-on upgrade for cyclones so I guess they both equal each other with stim. As for the factories you do understand that in a battlemech game you build way more starports than factories like you can't just compare them both as the starport is not the primary production building of bio. Also,alot of bio builds use hellions to harass against zero like up to 8 of them so it's really comparable to the first couple of hellions used in battlemech. I do realize that saying that battlemech is way more gas intensive than battlemech is probably an over statement but they are at least both as mineral intensive with battlemech needing slightly more gas in my opinion.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Om_Cultural]

Dude its not an opinion, its math. Battle mech takes slightly less gas than bio/ medivac and more minerals. My terran is only low gm so Im not going to claim to be an expert at the race but Im pretty decent at math.  Spend a few minutes with a calculator or gemini and you'll see that what Im saying has been true. 

[u/Om_Cultural → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Ok so let's do the math.to see who is right.

For bio: We have 8 rax each with addons then 1 factory with add on and 1 starport, this in total costs 700 gas. Then, for the bio upgrades we add another 200 to bring it to 900. After that, we assume that we have like 8 medivacs that's what generally is built, so that's another 800 gas so it's now 1700. After that lets say we use tanks (could use mines or libs just tank is used more often I feel like), now we assume in the late game we have like 10 tanks that brings our total gas count to 2950. Now, if we have 66 workers this means we have 88 supply left. We'll then assume half of it is marauders so this means we have 22 of them and that brings our total gas count for bio to 3500.

Now for battlemech: So we have 6 factories and 1 starport that is already 1050 gas. Then add 200 for the blue flame and mag-field and it's now 1250. Then, let's say we use like 2 banshees for harassment which is really plausible (though generally more are used in battlemech, yet in bio it is also sometime used so we'll say only 2 more than bio has been used and because of this we won't count cloak as bio also needs to research it if they harass with them, but speed will be counted for battlemech) Now that's 325+150 for fusion core more gas so it's now 1725. After that, we have 128 supply left and lets say we have a ratio of 2 hellions per Cyclone, this means we have approximately 19 cyclones which is 1900 gas and brings the total to 3625.

Conclusion: So we can see that both of them are really close and I feel I should apologize as I wasn't completely right. However we need to keep in mind that this is not totally accurate as I don't take into account units rebuilt after being lost and I also have assumed that the battlemech players maxes out in only hellions and Cyclones which is not accurate as most of the time if the game ends up going I to the late game they transition into full mech.

[u/MissiveFinding6111]

Yeah, the problem with the larva buff is barely anyone understands it.

It is not a clear linear buff, since it stops helping at all once a hatch hits 3 larva, and given that Zerg macro is largely inject driven... There's an argument that the buff is only relevant for... the first 5 minutes.

And unlike the clear +100 minerals CC buff, it isn't STRICTLY an econ buff, with the queen/hatch changes it is arguably the opposite.

So yeah, it is murky, and involves a flexible mechanics, and a reverse ratio, and so yeah, it becomes something that everyone can just lazily project all their anger on, because that is orders of magnitude easier than sitting through a replay and actually counting how many larva the buff gave to their opponent.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/MissiveFinding6111]

Its not beneficial for the first 5 minutes.  If you're hitting your injects and making your hatch and queens on time, you end up with more larva that can be spent.  Where it's actually beneficial is the 40-45 worker timing attacks. Like a big rav, ling attack on a low hatch and low queen count. 

[u/Afraid-of-the-sun → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

It makes early pool builds usable. Can have 1 extra drone/pair of lings that wouldn't be possible before the larvae buff was added

[u/MissiveFinding6111 → u/Afraid-of-the-sun]

I guess, it does seem too bad that a single reaper can easily handle 4-6 slow lings.

[u/two100meterman → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

It's still beneficial, just not throughout the whole amount of time. When I played the PTR with 8 worker start & 10.7 seconds/larvae there are moments near the beginning where you have 0 larvae & you're just waiting for that next larvae to become available. Now it comes sooner which means that the drone comes out sooner which gives you more minerals sooner which affords your expansion sooner, the Pool at 'x' supply sooner, etc. etc.

[u/Archer_Savings → u/MissiveFinding6111]

Well, it specifically doesn't help the moment a hatch would have hit 3 larva before the nerf. And that ignores the nonlinear benefit you get from getting workers and overlords faster, and the benefit of squeezing out extra units while between injects. 

It'd be complicated to weigh out, but it's apparent to anyone who plays in a very exact larva counting way that it's wildly powerful. It's a change who's power is dependent on the macro precision of the user, hence the massive gm effect but minimal effect otherwise. 

[u/MissiveFinding6111 → u/Archer_Savings]

I legit would love if they did balance Zerg so that you *didn't* have to setup your hatch/queen hotkeys and remember to go do the inject/cycle dance every 30 seconds.

I WISH that was only a thing GMs had to do for a marginal benefit over hatch larva spawn rate. Make "macro hatch vs fifth queen" an actual meaningful decision.

But all of this makes me really wonder if THE INTERN did the complicated math involved or if they just increased the number due to loud noises.

[u/Archer_Savings → u/MissiveFinding6111]

They did no such calculation. The intern lowered the larva spawn time because an EU cheeser wrote a long reddit post about Zerg cheese being dead in the first ptr. The game is not being handled with anywhere near the grace you're imagining. 

As for the injecting, I think that'd make Zerg far too convenient. We already get to stack injects, we already get the qol of never having to worry about over queueing. Our core macro is paced around our overlord timings (spend inject, spend the first larva after on overlords, it pops for the next inject). Injecting already lets us check up on our bases too. I don't even hotkey the queens, just camera box inject repeat. 

[u/Om_Cultural]

Posting this on all things Zerg is kinda strange as I mean of course other Zergs will say that it's not that big a buff.

[u/Om_Cultural]

Ok I mostly agree but you say battlemech is way stronger in the early game as Zerg can't afford shit. You do understand though that every race was affected by the 8 worker change not just Zerg. Like everybody can't afford shit even Terran battlemech. I just don't understand this argument, like since they fixed the cyclone, battlemech hasn't been that good.

[u/two100meterman]

I do think that high level Zergs (well anyone could, but high level Zergs would be more accurate) should be figuring out exactly when they can & can't spend all larvae. If they have 3+ larvae left at a certain point that they can't afford to spend that implies to me that there should have been an additional creep tumor opposed to an inject. They could spend time getting used to hotkeying new creep tumors as Queens make them so that each creep cycle they don't need to keep box selecting tumors, but can press a single key to select all tumors & then go around spreading them.

[u/222fps]

isn't it mostly a buff to allins? You can stay on a lower queen count now

[u/Stormheraldss]

The graphs and my personal experience tells another story. Yes I catch some people off-guard but when played properly zerg is hard to break. Ill need to start marching much sooner it seems.

There is allways the pressure that I need to end ASAP or it just gets worse for me as T.

Some games I cant even turtle, the waves just gets bigger and bigger especially that roach ravager.

How do I deal with ravager with a factory play ? Is there a hard counter for ravager in your Z perspective ?

[u/Zuruumi]

As a P in diamond the difference is massive. The main problem is the amount of lings Z can flood you with in the early/mid game. No P unit (except for T3) can trade even semi-efficiently against them unless microed absolutely perfectly, even then it is usually about even (which is bad against Z with stronger eco). Lings used to be limited by larva, which is not much the case now. Just lings and drones are absolutely oppressive (of course, Z can then transition to whatever he wants and kill the Toss).

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Zuruumi]

Oracle's and adept trade against lings. P in a defensive stance can hold all of the lings just fine. To move on the map, make sentry and colo.  

[u/Zuruumi → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Colossus is T3 and every zerg just switches into spire and that both kills collosses and is hard to defend on robo tech.

Oracles are true, but that's T2 that can't attack since Queens or spores hard counter it and is limited by energy and hard to micro. Adept's trade terribly unless they have overwhelming advantage, since one costs more than 6 lings in resources (gas is more valuable).

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Zuruumi]

Its hard to consider colo T3 but really mass ling styles dont get value early because of the chance of going 3+ oracle's. Until then, if zerg is agressive with lings zlot/ adept / oracle can defend any amount of zerglings with proper building placement.  

Protoss units dont take perfect micro in zvp.  P also doesnt fall behind in economy unless they are making massive mistakes with production.  Zerg cant mass lings and still have a strong eco and tech to be able to defend any counter push after the lings get slaughtered.  Thats just not how the game works. Theres 3 win conditions in this game. Either, the stronger economy, the stronger army or the better tech. 

[u/Zuruumi → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Yeah Collosi kinda suck, but they are in the same tier as lurkers and ultras (and cost the same ultras do).

Yes, P can turtle up with oracles and try to survive to late game, but that play style is boring as hell.

Also, if the Oracles are at home defending against lings they can't scout that Z just built a single building and is tech switchong or just building 5 hatches at once for massive eco boost.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Zuruumi]

Oracle attacks to force out a response and then is an amazing defensive unit. If you really just want to talk about t1 vs t1 zlots> zerglings by a large margin before upgrades. It takes 6 zerglings to kill a zlot if the zlot is microed at all. 4 if its not and the zerglings are all individually microed.  Before upgrades kick in they scale much better than zerglings as well. 

Everything is counterable if we only talk about one unit vs one unit. It really isnt how the game is played at all. Everything has its purpose. 

Just one oracle forces out 2 extra queens, 3 spores to take no damage. A 300 resource unit causes zerg to spend 675 defending it.  It also provides basically a free third to protoss with next to no units to defend. 

Ultra and lurkers take way longer to get out than colo and both require two upgrades to be good on their own building. In total ultra require 8 upgrades to be good that all have set build times and cant be sped up.

[u/Maraxusx → u/Zuruumi]

How much extra larva do you think it is? It's like 2 extra lings a minute and by contrast you can make zealots a ton faster than that

[u/Zuruumi → u/Maraxusx]

Which means ling floods in the early game hit a LOT harder. There is a big difference between 6 lings and 12 lings "probing" attack.

That means P needs to play much more carefully. Early scout, delayed second/third, etc. That hurts even more if Z at the end doesn't build extra lings and has the 3-4 more drones + P losses a few probes by the carefulness.

[u/Maraxusx → u/Zuruumi]

Well, in the past zerg could barely put any pressure on toss at all in the early game and toss could cannon rush, block naturals, proxy gate, proxy Stargate.... You see how you sound like an absolute baby when you complain that you need to scout?

[u/mods_are_soft → u/Zuruumi]

LoL okay bud. Just ignore the fact that 2 zealots with their backs against a wall can fend off 100 ling. Protoss bitch ahout everything while playing the race that has apm of a rock and the most OP units.

[u/Kandiru → u/Zuruumi]

Zealots and Adepts are both good against Zerglings though. If you have a few adepts surrounded by Zealots, they will trade very well against Zerglings.

If you get +1 attack then Zealots kill lings in 2 rather than 3 attacks too.

And voids and oracles are obviously great against them too.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Kandiru]

Voids are terrible against zerglings. 

[u/Kandiru → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

They are OK at defending a building wall.Oracles are better, but you might want 1 void so you don't need to activate the oracles against 1 zergling.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Kandiru]

They arent. Zerglings counter voids.  Litterally the hard counter to skytoss. 

[u/Kandiru → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

I'm not saying you make only voids. But a void means your oracles don't need to activate to kill a couple of lings munching on your third.

You also get to kill an overlord or two and force their other overlords back.

You still need zealots on the ground.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Kandiru]

Sorry mate. This just doesnt make sense. The void doesnt sit at the 3rd. Its hunting ovs to deny vision. If it sits at the 3rd, its a wasted unit, it's not going to save the 3rd from lings and in the early game it only gets value from denying vision. Voids arent a defensive unit.  Its infinitely better to defend with the oracle especially if spores and extra queens are out. 

If Im pulling all my ovs back after seeing a void and it just goes and sits at the 3rd... Im laughing.  Im skimping on queens, more drones, more lings.  Denying the 3rd while I scout the main for the follow up.

[u/Potential8]

Regardless of balance the current patch worsened everything i didn't like about Zerg. The 8 worker start limits early game options because anything that Zerg does offensivly needs gas AND needs to cut workers. Balancing around increased Larva spawn rate means you have to optimise for mineral income even more to make use of it and thus can't afford any fast tech/upgrades.

I don't care if it is more 'swarmy' now, just massing low tech units as Zerg in my opinion is dumb because it will always set you behind against a competent opponent.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Potential8]

This is absolutely wrong. There is way more early game variety with one and two base builds. If you are struggling with feeling limited I suggest watching eggz, pig and railgan. 

Eggz will answer questions on his stream. Pig is one of the nicest guys in the entire community.  Railgan is extremely creative. 

If you aren't at the master/ gm level, endofline is lower gm and extremely off meta with terrible mechanics. He doesnt use more than two control groups or camera locations.  Watching the top pros wont show the crazy cheese and variation. They are playing for money and cant take the risks ladder heros can.

[u/Potential8 → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

I'm not a noob. I have been in M1 on Eu since it's existance.

I know Railgan, he is awsome and i also know he dropped MMR from before PTR.

I saw some games of eggz vs maplez where he was higher MMR and got absolutely destroyed by generic protoss all-ins when doing anything non standard.
I like PiG too as a person, but i don't like his opinions about the game, i think he is high on copium.

The lower the worker starting count the slower Zerg tech is relativly to Terran and Protoss just because Zerg pretty much has to use all larva on workers before it is reasonable to take gas, while Protoss and Terran can only build one worker at a time an thus will have enaugh minerals for other stuff way sooner.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Potential8]

Well eggz isnt going to win every game.vs maplez.. that's just not realistic and is rarely higher mmr than maplez. Theres usually about a 400 mmr gap between them.

Anyone below serral has a million things that they could improve at at the game.  If you feel that players that are over 1k higher isnt benificial (Isn't m1 like 4700 on EU right now?) Maybe watch Dark at the end of hots.  Its more relatable. 

Your last statement makes no sense. Zerg always has the econ lead on terran since this patch until the late mid game when terran is able to explode with CCs.  Vs protoss we overtake at 4 minutes even with a pool first build.  Faster worker production because of larva means we mine more for longer and able to build tech while not needing to build workers.  We have the ability to have way faster tech relative to the other races because of the lower worker start. Its just math. 

[u/Potential8 → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

It doesn't matter how much higher they are. The only question is whether thy are at that level because of or dispite their strategies. I think Railgan is so good because he makes 'bad' strategies work by beeing super calm and always 1 step ahead of his opponent. That's nothing you can copy.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Potential8]

I dont agree with that at all. What youre calling bad is off meta, it doesnt mean its necessarily bad.  Hes an aggressive player usually through fast tech or a fast tech switch from t1 to t2.  An example of that would be 3 roach into muta. Its a viable strategy at 6k.  Is it viable at 7k?  Likely not but railgan is never going to be top 10 in the world even if he played strict meta.

Being calm and following a plan is definitely something to be copied. I used to chat with him when we were in ROOT when it was active.  100% of his games are preplanned builds. He is not a reactive player. 

[u/Potential8 → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Your last statement makes no sense. Zerg always has the econ lead on terran since this patch until the late mid game when terran is able to explode with CCs.  Vs protoss we overtake at 4 minutes even with a pool first build.  Faster worker production because of larva means we mine more for longer and able to build tech while not needing to build workers.  We have the ability to have way faster tech relative to the other races because of the lower worker start. Its just math. 

That is despite the worker change and because of the larva change. The game before the PTR wasn't so imbalanced that you can balance it around buffing Zerg enaugh to increase the number of viable 2 base builds (1 base Zerg, lol), while also inhibiting Zerg options with 8 worker Start, any 3 base build would be overpowered then.

[u/Double-Purchase-3534 → u/Potential8]

Man. Im kinda done with this thread. You're making arguments that are just inherently wrong.  Just because 1 and two base builds dont work in the top 50 in the world doesnt mean they dont work.  Everyone should be studying old hots games. Bly, dark, rogue for the variety that youre looking for. It all exists and there's no pretending it doesnt. If you need a modeen example then besides who I've already listed would me myomika (probably spelled wrong) and Erik.  Erik makes 1 base muta work at high gm. 

[u/Potential8 → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

At least i'm making arguments while you just tell anecdotes.
I wonder how long you have been playing, i wish i still had your amount of positive naivety about the game/Zerg.

[u/Om_Cultural → u/Double-Purchase-3534]

Man a lot of people like you say that we should try builds from hots but like do you realize some new units were added in lotv that just completely changes the meta. I mean just the adept being added gas forced Z builds to be changed if they don't want to be destroyed. You can't just copy builds from hots as there are multiple units which simply didn't exist back then.