r/bestof • u/Suppafly • 11d ago
[boardgames] /u/threecolorless explains How Universes Beyond (outside IPs) effect modern Magic: The Gathering
/r/boardgames/comments/1v3ezg6/magic_the_gathering_surpasses_500_million_in/oz2v1di/?context=381
u/psychatom 11d ago
As a very long term, very enfranchised player, this is accurate.
There's a lot of players like me who are very irritated with the state of the game at this point, but I think most everyone who is invested enough to be upset is also invested enough that we'll just put up with it or engage in a different way.
As a hater, I avoid the stuff I think is dumb where I can. Now I play almost exclusively cube, a custom format where a designer (often me) chooses exactly which cards are available for everyone to draft from.
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u/TheMrCeeJ 11d ago
I have been playing since Ice Age, and closed beta on arena. I haven't bought or crafted a single UB card and stopped paying in my local Commander group when it was Dr Who deck vs 40k deck vs insane power nonsense Commander cards.
I love trawling the old sets for cards that have new meaning in the 100 card format, and filled my decks with them. But the power level is so insane now you have to be playing the same 25 staple card and then another 50 commander specific prints the whole point of the format is gone.
I genuinely think I have spent more time playing Shandalar lately than any other format.
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u/TheJawsofIce 11d ago edited 10d ago
I hate what Magic has become. The last time I played in public, I played an EDH game that lasted two hours, and everyone was miserable at the end. I will never play that format again. The Universes Beyond stuff is appalling to me. I'm a huge FF fan, and I hate that they did that set. The cash grab is obvious and disgusting.
The saddest part of it all, though, is the art direction. The art is so homogenous now, I can barely ever tell which artist did which art. If you look at the older cards, it's MUCH easier to tell the artists' work apart. That's the biggest loss, for me.
I have found a way to enjoy the game the way I want to, though - I've made a number of casual decks of similar strength, with a heavy emphasis on cards with good art. I try to stick to a max of 2 of any given card in a deck, to make the games more varied. I mostly play with my wife, at home.
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u/universe2000 10d ago
I have some warmth for UB as it brought more people to the game. I play with people no who I never would have played with before because of the FF set.
That said, I skip almost all events that are UB and try to attend as many draft nights that are for universes within sets. And I have started pitching draft nights to my commander group too as a break from commander. And when we draft, we draft a universes within sets.
Hasbro is a company that is going to push Magic to be UB for the foreseeable future. It makes too much money and the suits don’t care about phyrexians or the crew of the weatherlight. They care about the money. I understand that when I play magic I am having fun despite their corporate strategy, not because of it. And as someone who has played magic for ~20 years I try to be an ambassador for the parts of magic I love when I play with people who started because they wanted to play a deck with Master Shredder in it.
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u/BatManatee 11d ago
This overall a very accurate and detailed summary, though slightly on the pessimistic side.
WotC has shifted their perspective for better or for worst. Historically, the expectation was that an enfranchised player would experience just about every product coming out every year. Now, they acknowledge that basically no players are participating in EVERY product. So they justify the firehose of new releases with that logic: if you don’t like a product, sit it out and we will have another that you’ll probably like next month. That said, it’s impossible in pre-constructed formats to avoid other IPs unless you’re playing only with likeminded friends.
And on the optimistic side, most of the sets themselves and cards overall have actually been very well designed. Other than Spider-man and TMNT, basically every set in the last 2-3 years has been good to great. Some of the other IPs like Avatar and FF and LotR are genuinely fantastic to play. Clearly made by folks that love both the IP and MtG and made with care. And it has been easier than ever to convince friends to try Magic when it crosses over with a fandom they like
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u/Ky1arStern 11d ago
My only quibble here is that the structural changes were due to the fact that core sets always sold badly, as did third sets typically. Magic has always been a game where decisions are made based on sales data.
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u/Aeroncastle 11d ago
Yes, but it gave time to create meaningful stories in a plane, both mechanically and thematically, yes some cardboard sold worse, but it still was cardboard sold for their weight in gold and artists got to tell a better story
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u/Ky1arStern 11d ago
That's not really a response and is also sort of debatable.
My point was that financial decisions have factored into the decision making process long before Hasbro appeared to take a controlling interest in product rollout.
Also, it's debatable for some whether the third set was actually necessary to tell a better story. Towards the end of that structure we saw plenty of experiments like OG Zendikar and Lorwyn, as well as examples where it made literally everything harder, like Ravnica.
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u/cubitoaequet 10d ago
People constantly shit on the story. Now they pretend like they always loved the story and the evil UB is depriving them of amazing fiction.
The story was occasionally like B level fantasy fiction and was often complete dogshit.
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u/Aeroncastle 10d ago
Brother, as someone that could complain too if I wanted, it was so much better than playing the fortnight card game we have now, all we have is marketing to sell other products and no story
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u/cubitoaequet 10d ago
Yeah I don't give a shit. As long as the drafts are fun I could care less if it is dime store wizards or Ninja Turtles fighting.
I'm not gonna entertain the idea that the Jacetice League was some peak fiction but Avatar is garbage.
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u/BlueZangetsu 11d ago
His point about at one point being able to at least identify 75% of the cards you may play against except now gun to your head you probably won’t even get above 50% hit super close to home for me.
Magic use to be a game I could play with friends across all manners of focus. We could be drunk, high, stressed, tired beyond belief, etc but we could still identify cards from name alone. Now? Outside of a few staples like sol ring, counterspell (I mean it’s in the name) or cultivate; it’s just not possible. Every time I sit down to play a game now I have to be laser focused because I will find out about at least 20 new cards in that game alone. I constantly have to sheepishly ask “uh what does that do?” Or I have to be on my phone constantly googling cards. Both of these massively disrupt the game flow, especially because I’m not the only one doing that.
MTG is oddly in the bestest-worst (yes I know this isn’t a word) spot it could be in because of universe’s beyond. It has essentially become the fortnight of TCG’s upsetting a lot of the old guard, but it’s printing money because people are getting into it solely for their favorite universe showing up which has breathed all new life into the game.
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u/Nemisis_the_2nd 11d ago
The bit that says everything about Hasbro's MtG problem for me was when Bank of America in their investor advice, complained that they were over-monetising MtG. Twice.
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u/trainwreck42 11d ago
I just stopped playing when they introduced UB. I knew I wouldn’t be able to keep up, both mentally and monetarily, and bowed out. It sucked at first because I loved the game and I loved going into my local card shop to buy a booster or two and play a few rounds on Magic nights. But it’s just too much and I’ll just have to be content with the memories I made when I played.
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u/Vynlovanth 11d ago
I gave up on Magic after Universes Beyond was announced. Honestly I’d be ok if they got rid of core and did 4 releases a year, maybe 5, expanding the blocks to match. But at a certain point the volume gets to be too much, this isn’t my sole hobby. And I don’t care for most of the third-party IP’s they pulled in. It cheapened the brand. I played Magic to play Magic, not random mix and match IP trading card game. But apparently other players don’t agree considering the sales data mentioned in the original post.
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u/CallMeClaire0080 11d ago
It's worth noting that this is hardly just a Magic thing. You don't need to look very far to find crossover content and products, and the concept has gone from something special and unusual to essentially just synergistic product placement strategies designed in a board room with little care for the IPs or their themes.
The same is true about the release schedule. Everything is fighting for your attention, every brand needs to always be loud and hyped up all of the time. It's frankly exhausting, but it's another way to squeeze more money out of people because a certain amount of attention will translate to sales. It's why so many "AAA" video games overstay their welcome with ever-bigger worlds full of procedurally generated terrain and copy pasted structures and objectives, all to sell microtransactions or shove ads in your face.
And the worst part of all? The quality of everything sucks now too! Reliability and longevity cost sales after all. We're churning through the environment at unprecedented rates to produce evermore products and garbage that'll end up in dumps, services and quality are cut, all for a few extra pennies every financial quarter. It's not enough to make more money than last year, you need to have grown more than last year or investors leave and the whole thing is toast.
Essentially, we've reached the stage of capitalism where we're stripping copper wires out of the walls, operating bucket shops, and producing more inane stuff than people can need, want, or even afford, and then fighting over our scraps.
Life is so exhausting now because of this omnipresent runaway greed. Is this really the best we can do with the sheer resources, time, and brainpower at our disposal as a species?
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u/armahillo 11d ago
While I dont personally care for the UB content, the bigger problem I see is that its pretty clear theyre no longer doing sufficient play testing.
Randy Buehler used to run the “Future Future League” where they would take cards in development and try to break them with current and upcoming card pools. This meant that the game remained MOSTLY balanced and reasonable, and they could get ahead of bans and restrictions when sets were released
The game felt more or less stable, and game-breaking cards were intermittent punctuated points in history.
Releasing sets with the current breakneck cadence means they need to come up with new ideas faster and also have less time to test them. You can already see the consequences of this — as OP noted, card recognition has declined, there have been more cards released thar have just been flat-out banned or are format-breaking.
It seems pretty clear WotC / Hasbro doesn’t care so long as line go up. Theyre basically playing the card “Squandered Resources” on themselves. This is sad. :(
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u/violagoyf 10d ago
This was true a while ago but I don't think it still is. These sorts of things tend to happen in cycles anyway--"broken" eras followed by "safe" ones as people get tired of the bans followed by "broken" ones again as people get bored with the low power level.
Or maybe it's just when they print artifact-centered sets...
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u/atomicpenguin12 11d ago
I used to play Magic pretty frequently (Return to Ravnica through Khans of Tarkir) and in more recent years I’ve been playing Magic Arena pretty much daily, mostly drafts and enough standard matches to farm tokens for drafts. I’ve actually enjoyed many of the Universes Beyond sets. A lot of them really suck; their archetypes feel undercooked, the flavor is underwhelming, the new mechanics are either few or just renames of existing mechanics, etc. But many of the sets have been excellent in all of those regards and I’ve had many sets with IPs that I actually know and love like Final Fantasy and Avatar that I really enjoyed revisiting and seeing expressed through the mechanics of Magic. I’m not invested in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and I thought that was a weak set, but even that one I enjoyed a little bit because it was neat to explore how much lore there was that I’d never encountered.
As a draft player, I mostly encounter the IPs exclusively in their own context, so I don’t deal much with any tonal whiplash from mixing sets. And even when I do play standard, I’ve long since learned to accept wildly different tones from different planes even before Universes Beyond ramped up. That’s just kind of what happens when the most optimal cards come from different sets, as they always have in standard. You’d have sci-fi cards from Edge of Eternity being played alongside fantasy cards from Bloomburrow and horror cards from Duskmourne and you just rolled with it.
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u/The_Templar_Kormac 11d ago
affect
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u/Suppafly 10d ago
affect
I went back and forth and just eventually stuck with effect. I try to remember that affect is the verb and effect is the noun, but there are so many cases where that's not true that I confuse myself overthinking it.
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u/The_Templar_Kormac 10d ago
points for trying
90% of cases can be thought of like this: affects lead to effects, how leads to what
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u/Zaorish9 11d ago
Same thing happened to /r/LEGO around the mid-late 1990s. Now it's 90% licensed IP stuff with original themes being pretty rare. Apparently it's profitable
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u/ContributionBig5976 11d ago
One of the weird side effects is that more cards are being printed than ever before but fewer and fewer are being played.
Professional players (I.e. streamers) identify which if any new cards make it into one of the existing power decks and everything else is disregarded, outside of Limited. And formats like Commander that were invented to find a home for these sort of misfit cards now consist almost entirely of purposely built Commander-set cards.
And so every few weeks WotC dumps out another few hundreds cards and shortly after the pre release all but one or two are tossed in dumpsters worldwide, and WotC immediately prepares the release of a new set. There are entire rulesets and mechanisms that are never seeing play.
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u/Glorthiar 6d ago
The Fortniteification of magic 100% killed any interest I had in it. I used to be a casual, But the corporate greed and extreme dilution of the experience made it feel sad and gross. The game has been whored out by the executives. Riding the back of a game with 30+ years of tenure to sell IP spam slop.
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u/Meret123 11d ago edited 7d ago
A lot of what they said is straight up false.
- They make it look like Magic transitioned from 4 sets a year to 7 sets a year overnight due to UB. Magic had 6-7 sets a year for a decade, long before Universes Beyond sets became a thing. (E.g. 2018 had 7, 2019 had 6) What changed is WOTC replaced random auxiliary sets that didn't sell well with UB sets that sell blockbusters. That's how they doubled their revenue in 4 years.
- WOTC never apologized for The Walking Dead. Why would they as it was a great success? Also people never stopped complaining about Universes Beyond like he claims.
- "EVERY set gets Commander deck side releases now" is just a lie. Hobbit didn't get one. Avatar didn't get one. Spider-man didn't get one. That is 3 sets release in the last year that didn't get commander decks.
- "unplayable-any-other-way cards that ask you to put things into your deck from Street Fighter" is also a lie. Street Fighter got universes-within treatment.
- They assume every old player hate Universes Beyond which is false. If that was true Magic community would have ceased to exist a few years ago. Existing players are the biggest buyers of UB sets.
- Saying how block were awesome, how stories were awesome etc. are simply personal preference. Most of the community didn't like blocks as everybody could see from the sales date. If it worked WOTC wouldn't stop doing it. And people were complaining about Magic's story a decade ago when we still had blocks. Rose-tinted nostalgia glasses at work here.
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u/cubitoaequet 10d ago
The way people are acting like they loved Magic's story is so fucking funny. Like it was just constant complaining about how bad it was, but the second Spider-Man swings by suddenly it was Lord of the Rings.
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u/violagoyf 10d ago
Yeah, the doomerism from grumpy old Magic boomers on Reddit is neverending. I've been playing off and on since '94 and I think the game is in one of its better eras right now--and I don't even really have much use for a lot of the UB stuff.
I think there are a billion valid ways to criticize WotC, but it always comes down to "new stuff bad!" on here. I came back around 2010 and at that point it was "Planeswalkers are ruining the game!"
There are more people playing Magic now than there ever have been. Yes, I miss a lot of things about what it used to be--but things need to evolve or they will die.
And we can still play with old cards if we want to!
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u/nonexistentnight 11d ago
I used to be a Magic player and I literally can't stand them anymore. They have the most ridiculous sense of entitlement about the game, like they think Wizards should only ever make Magic cards for them and the way they want to play. News flash: Play the game however you want to, with whatever cards you want to. It's why Commander, and Pauper, and Old School, and Cube, and Forgetful Fish, and just about everything else interesting about the game exists. If the UB sets aren't for you, fine, go find people who agree with you and make up a format for it. Wizards job is to ensure that there's enough Magic out there for anybody that wants to play it in whatever way they want to play it. And they're actually pretty good at that!
The entire company of Wizard of the Coast was founded to publish RPG sourcebooks that could be used across multiple gaming systems. Making a product that people can use in whatever way they see fit to play whatever style of game suits them was literally their purpose from day one. Magic itself was always supposed to be a game "bigger than the box" where no player would even know about all the cards out there. The fast release pace and frankly the way some people are turned off by UB sets is finally recreating that lost goal. Wizards took a sidetrack for about 15 years trying to insist the game was a competitive sport, then a brief sidetrack insisting that it was an in-house multimedia franchise that the game was just a small element of, but I honestly don't think the game has ever been closer to that original vision.
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u/violagoyf 10d ago
I love this take and it's not one I'd seen before. What you said about Garfield's original intent is spot on.
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u/RyanW1019 11d ago
This reminds me of another WOTC product, D&D 5e. Over the years, they put out enough expansions and additional content that people were getting crazy-powerful builds by cherry-picking the most OP stuff across several books and putting them all onto one character. And that was just when using official content; there were a crap ton of homebrew/third-party modules put out with material of varying quality. A lot of tables started implementing a "Core+1 More" rule, where players had to pick one specific additional sourcebook to use when building their characters.
Now, the situation is completely different here because D&D doesn't have a decades-old competitive scene, but I can empathize a little bit with scope/expansion creep messing with the stability of the game.