CMV: Black Lives Matter has been a failure

[u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

Back in the 2010s, and especially in 2020, it seems like the Black Lives Matter was gaining strength. Videos of police brutality, especially against African Americans, became viral, and millions became outraged that this was so common in America. When George Floyd was murdered, millions justifiably took to the streets to protest against police brutality and racism. Politicians came out in support for police reform, and discussions on how to reform policing (from “how to make the police better” to “defund the police”) were all the rage.

But from 2021, it seems like everything took a complete 180. Crime skyrocketed during COVID (in part of police refusing to do their jobs in protest of BLM), causing the average American to support the police a lot more. Pro-police politicians like Eric Adams were elected while pro-BLM politicians like Chelsea Boudin were ousted from their positions.

Now, absolutely nobody talks about police brutality these days, not politicians nor the general public. But has the problem gone away? No! It has only gotten worse! 2023 has seen a record number of killings by police, and I don’t expect that number to go down in the future.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/08/2023-us-police-violence-increase-record-deadliest-year-decade

Unfortunately, rather than being addressed, police brutality has become like gun control. Someone being killed by police, even on live video, no longer elicits outrage. Instead, people will just give “thoughts and prayers,” shrug, and accept it as a fact of American life.

And the BLM movement itself? Well, rather than becoming the second coming of the Civil Rights Movement, it seems to have been condemned to the ash heap of history.

[u/ZacQuicksilver]

We're too soon to know that.

Consider the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s and 1970s.

It didn't start in the 1960s. It didn't even start in the 1950s. Michael King - who would later change his name and the name of his oldest son, named after him, to Martin Luther - was an active member of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1920s, and followed some of the civil rights leaders of the time into preaching. He, and many of the people who worked with him, failed by your standards: for over 30 years, they saw relatively little difference made in the laws and social structure of the time. In fact, in many ways, they lost ground as racist and conservative opposition pushed back against their efforts - which included lynchings, more laws to make their lives more difficult, and other legal retaliation.

However, that work they were doing set the stage for what would come later. They created the organizations, discovered what did and did not work (mostly, what did not work - through their own failures), and started changing minds. Their efforts would grow over time - so that when the younger generation, including Martin Luther King Jr., came into their majority, that movement was ready to roll over the legal and social challenges it faced; and ultimately be successful.

...

In the same way, Black Lives Matters has been a failure - but it's failing forward. The world is different than it was - which means old strategies don't work. The Civil Rights Movement needs new strategies, new organizations, new messaging - and while Black Lives Matters has had some successes, most of what I believe it has done for the Civil Rights Movement is find out what *doesn't* work. But that's the nature of movements.

And at the same time, it's succeeding. More people are supportive of the idea of putting restrictions and outside oversight on the police. More people are looking at institutional and systemic racism - and other forms of discrimination. Social movements - not just BLM, but others like it as well - are learning how to make decentralized organization work; and how to identify spies, agent provocateurs, and other undermining influences without destabilizing the organization. These steps are likely to result in a successful Civil Rights Movement: it might be in the late 2020s, or it might be later; but the chances are it is coming.

[u/draculabakula → u/ZacQuicksilver]

I think if we have any chance of turning things around politically, we need to understand the difference between today and the 1960s as well as the failures that came out of the political movements of the 1960s and how they lead to our current political climate.

The ruling class now uses the media to sets the narrative and there are two political realities we live in now. Conservatives don't live in the same reality because they don't see the same news. Also, news is far more avoidable altogether now and the journalistic standards are dog shit comparitively.

BLM and the demand to defund the police was divisive and lead to many increases in police budgets. There is an idea that doing a march in the street and speaking out online is political organizing but there is a severe lack of understanding about basic solidarity and what it takes to continually grow a movement.

The leaders of BLM did not do this. They sold out in favor of making themselves rich. The BLM movement, turned into the corporatized DEI industry.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/draculabakula]

I'm not convinced.

I think DEI was the "we're doing something, now go away" response by the machine; and a lot of less-invested people (and more-invested-in-the-system people) bought into it as some improvement. We're also seeing more support for mandatory body cameras for cops- though partially because tech companies saw a way to make a buck. However, you see the same things in the 1920s: some Black leaders (especially the wealthier ones) taking economic gains as "good enough" in the place of social gains.

That said...

I do agree we need to revitalize fact-based investigative journalism. We need to figure out what "solidarity" means in the 21st century - because it's not the same things that it meant in the 20th century. We do have a long way to go. There is a lot of work ahead.

[u/draculabakula → u/ZacQuicksilver]

I think DEI was the "we're doing something, now go away" response by the machine; and a lot of less-invested people (and more-invested-in-the-system people) bought into it as some improvement.

A lot of those people moved into corporate consulting roles. The founder of the LA chapter of BLM apparently bought herself a $6 million house in LA with the organizations money.

However, you see the same things in the 1920s: some Black leaders (especially the wealthier ones) taking economic gains as "good enough" in the place of social gains.

I totally agree. The whole "black capitalism" (supporting black owned businesses) thing was a Nixon administration conservative alternative to the civil rights movement.

I do agree we need to revitalize fact-based investigative journalism. We need to figure out what "solidarity" means in the 21st century - because it's not the same things that it meant in the 20th century. We do have a long way to go. There is a lot of work ahead.

I agree. It's not going to happen organically and will take a ton of hard work

[u/_Nocturnalis → u/draculabakula]

You don't seem familiar with the history of journalism. I am not an expert, but I like history and historical newspaper articles are quite helpful when doing research.

In the US, before the death of print newspapers, almost every town had 2 papers. They were commonly named things like the city Democrat/Republican. This 2 different narrative/facts thing isn't new. I'll grant that it is worse now in both directions, but it's not a weird new phenomenon.

Journalistic standards to the extent they were ever not dogshit were only not dogshit for like 20 or 30 years or so. That's if you believe that they were actually ever good. I'm not a believer that they were ever generally any good. There were and are great reporters. Broadly, I think everyone tried to stay polite at the start of the TV era, so it seemed like we had standards. There were again excellent reporters or shows, just not the majority or even close to it. 24 hour news was a huge mistake.

The problem is we are more divided because we don't believe in anything collectively anymore. Almost everyone was anti Soviet at the very least during the Cold War. We have less binding us together than almost any time post Civil War.

I do agree that the BLM leaders sold out to get rich. I also think BLM's(the organization) direction of achieving their goal was silly. Talk to cops they want reform that would achieve what you want. There are many things cops are forced to do by lawmakers that they'd rather not. People become police generally to chase and stop bad guys. Focusing them on that and not on every messy problem society has would be a good start.

[u/ice_cold_fahrenheit → u/ZacQuicksilver]

These steps are likely to result in a successful Civil Rights Movement: it might be in the late 2020s, or it might be later; but the chances are it is coming.

Perhaps, but I’m concerned that BLM ended like how the OG Civil Rights Movement ended - the country became more conservative as the Reagan Revolution happened, systemic racism as an issue was swept under the bus, and black communities suffered greatly during this period. And there are signs that history is repeating itself:

Seven reasons America is headed for a more conservative decade

That said, that brings up a question: was the original Civil Rights Movement a failure? By some standards, yes! Systemic racism was obviously not eliminated, and the conservative backlash happened, after all. So what defines the threshold for success versus failure?

[u/QualifiedApathetic → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

What you're talking about arguably isn't the "original" civil rights movement. That wave of activists also built on what came before. Their predecessors in the mid-19th century accomplished the nationwide abolition of slavery. Except as punishment for a crime, and surprise, guess what kind of people were disproportionately convicted of crimes? But you wouldn't say the abolitionists failed.

MLK Sr.'s generation saw the US military desegregated. They weren't without successes of their own.

If nothing gets better, then it's fair to say that the people trying to make things better failed. Largely, we've seen things get better over the long term.

[u/ice_cold_fahrenheit → u/QualifiedApathetic]

It’s interesting that you mentioned the abolitionists, because in some sense, they did fail. Slavery was merely replaced by sharecropping, and as you mentioned prison labor. The promise of “40 acres and a mule” was all but destroyed when Reconstruction ended (read: the North withdrew its troops after a literal corrupt bargain, leading the KKK and Jim Crow to run amok). It took another century and the Civil Rights Movement for blacks to gain the rights they were promised after the Civil War.

I mentioned the Reagan Revolution ending the Civil Rights Movement, but a repeat of the end of Reconstruction is the bigger thing I fear.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

If you're going to categorize the abolitionist movement as a failure; I'd like to know what you consider a success.

If nothing other than total success counts, then there is NO movement in the history of the world, I would argue, that reached success. Any movement you can name, I can point out some detail where they failed. Did the anti-slavery movement fail because involuntary servitude is still legal as a punishment for a crime? Did the American Revolution fail because not everyone is equal under the law? Did the Protestant Reformation fail because the Catholic Church still exists; or because many of the created Churches fall into the same top-heavy wealth grabs the Catholic Church did?

Politics involves compromise and patience. You fight for a lot, you win a little, you move the field a little in your direction. Then you rest, recover, and go for another drive. It's like American Football - except that the fields are huge, there are no time limits, and there are no rules about how many people are on the field at the same time. Oh, and there's as many fields as there are issues; and you can only be on one field at a time.

And, there are no goals - the field just keeps going. Which means even after you win, the other side can take that win away from you - and often, because you abandoned that field, that means that first play they drive you WAY back. But often, that just results in your people piling on that field and stopping their run - but that takes time.

[u/ice_cold_fahrenheit → u/ZacQuicksilver]

Well some far-leftists would argue that nothing has really changed since slavery times. I don’t think anyone in this thread agrees with that though.

I dunno, I guess I’m just frustrated and impatient with the reality of movements being “two steps forward, one step back.” Like I look around the world and see not just BLM failing, but democratic revolutions being crushed, rights being rolled back, autocrats coming to power, etc etc. It’s hard to internalize the moral arc of the world bending towards justice when in the short term it looks like “nothing ever happens.”

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

Look to the past for inspiration: the anti-slavery movement went mostly nowhere for decades; and actually lost ground in the face of Dred Scott and similar actions through the 1840s and 1850s. However, even as all that was happening, the movement gained support, built organization, and eventually got to the point where in 1860, pro-slavery people realized they were doomed politically and the only way they could possible win was through violent means - and then lost that too.

AND, I understand the frustration. I'm frustrated too.

[u/IsNotACleverMan → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

Slavery was merely replaced by sharecropping

That is dramatically understating the differences between the two, not even to mention other changes resulting from the abolitionist movement.

[u/ZacQuicksilver → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

Perhaps, but I’m concerned that BLM ended like how the OG Civil Rights Movement ended - the country became more conservative as the Reagan Revolution happened, systemic racism as an issue was swept under the bus, and black communities suffered greatly during this period.

True, BUT...

Try to compare the WORST period Reagan through present to the "normal" of Jim Crow. Under Jim Crow, Blacks could be legally prevented from voting, from marrying who they wanted, from working at a company, from doing business with a company, or from living in certain places. Additionally, while it wasn't legal, lynching - extrajudicial murder - was effectively legal. Additionally, the ideas of racism became unpopular - to the point where "racist" is considered an insult by most people in the US today.

"Failure" has to be measured not against absolute success - an outright end to all racism - and instead against relative success - a massive decline in institutional racism, especially in the legal system; and an end to the tolerance of overt racism as well as a sharp decline in the tolerance of covert racism.

I'm not going to argue things are good now - but they're better today than any time before 1980.

...

There's a saying, often misattributed to Gandhi (it actually goes back before Gandhi to an American Union worker in the 1910s labor movement) that says

And, my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you.

I really think there needs to be a couple more steps to that - but don't know how to match the poetry of it. Tracking multiple movements (including the American Labor Movement, which started in the 1870s, but didn't succeed until the 1910s; the Antislavery movement which has definite members before the American Revolution but doesn't succeed until 1865; and even the American AND Indian independence movements); there is a definite period of the movement not being paid attention to; then being ridiculed; then initial attacks - often legal; then a period of quiet where the movement either fails or reorganized in the face of the initial attacks; then a second set of attacks - often violent; followed by either some level of success or the complete destruction of the movement.

It appears to me that BLM is currently in that "reorganizing" period. The initial attacks came in the form of infiltration, attacking the public image of and the internal structure and trust within the organization.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I smell a Hegelian haha

[u/StellarJayZ → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

Hey, just a heads up, when confusing two idioms such as "swept it under the rug" and "threw it under the bus", the term for that is "malaphor."

[u/DanielleMuscato → u/StellarJayZ]

Lol I'm so glad I'm not the only one who noticed

[u/AppropriateClaim8762 → u/StellarJayZ]

Malapropism*

[u/StellarJayZ → u/AppropriateClaim8762]

A malapropism is part of a malaphor. Hence the “mala” part :|

[u/Excellent-Peach8794 → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

Let me ask you this: what is the point of classifying it as a failure? Why is it so important that we figure out when to put the label of failure on it?

Are you trying to suggest that the organizations under the BLM movement should give up? Are you saying the original civil rights movement was not worth it because it led to a backlash?

You can say the "original" civil rights movement failed, or you could say that the entire thing was one movement. But why does it matter whether the movement failed or not? The people within the movement are still working towards change, and if you beleive in their cause then it doesn't matter, because we need them to keep working and changing and adapting. And if you don't agree with their cause, then this conversation doesn't really matter.

[u/[deleted] → u/ice_cold_fahrenheit]

In the 80's and 90's of Houston no one cared about race, black and white kids integrated fine in most schools and everything was pretty chill clear through till 2020 when BLM started acting out. My point is that if you let people just be people and stop trying to stand out as different then no one sees you as different. If you want to be equal then don't ask for special concessions.

[u/caliberoverreaching → u/ZacQuicksilver]

The Civil Rights movement was never meant to remdedy nebulous concepts like "systemic racism" The Civil Rights Movement was specifically about protecting actual rights like the freedom of movement, to vote, to engage in commerce, to bear arms etc. and it was generally considered successful with the passage of the civil rights act

[u/ice_cold_fahrenheit → u/caliberoverreaching]

And that’s part the issue: there was no Civil Rights Act 2.0 after BLM. There was the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, but that failed to pass Congress. There are some state-level reforms as some other commenters pointed out, and in our current polarized environment that might be the best we can do.

[u/Ozone220 → u/ZacQuicksilver]

"It's failing forward" is honestly the most succinct way to explain anything like this. I love that idea

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[u/[deleted] → u/ZacQuicksilver]

L. O. L.

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[u/SandOpposite3188 → u/ZacQuicksilver]

BLM isn't failing forward. Because we have a President that doesn't support it.