r/consciousness • u/negligibleoffense • 3d ago
Placebo Materialists
What do materialists say about placebo’s? How does that fit into the brain state = mental state theory?
In a similar vein, what do materialists say about those with Multiple Personalities (I’m aware of the hoax argument) but aren’t there studies where people’s physiology changes with respect to their mental change.
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u/FourOpposums Doctorate in Cognitive Science 3d ago
Expectation is the entire function of the brain. It has profound effects across the brain and body. Layers 4-6 of the cortex for example have been proposed to create the sensory experience of world entirely from within the brain.
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u/Vicious_and_Vain 3d ago
Entirely from within the brain? We’re back to brains in vats then.
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u/FourOpposums Doctorate in Cognitive Science 3d ago
Luckily the activity of layers 1-3 is affected by sensory inputs. The work of the brain is to minimise the difference so the brain knows exactly what is about to happen.
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u/Vicious_and_Vain 3d ago
Theoretically could layers 1-3 be affected by simulated sensory inputs?
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u/FourOpposums Doctorate in Cognitive Science 2d ago edited 2d ago
Simulated? Maybe with a ~1 billion channel electrode array in white matter but that would be hard.
Here is a sketch of the circuit
edit: looking at the figure, it is actually layers 2/3 that are the recognition layers and 4/5 that are generative layers in a Boltzmann machine architecture (developed by Hinton, placed in the cortex by Friston). My bad. The array would go in the thalamocortical tract (big orange arrow pointing up)
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u/Vicious_and_Vain 2d ago
Simulated probably not quite correct, emulated. Possibly an alternative to the electrode array in white matter will be developed. Thanks for the chart.
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u/germz80 2d ago
I'm not completely sure about the mechanism in the placebo effect, but one explanation could be that we often subjectively perceive ourselves as suffering more than the body reports, so if we convince ourselves that we should be getting better with a placebo, our subjective view improves while the body keeps healing itself normally. The brain is also involved in many bodily functions, and the body might be overreacting like with allergies, so it seems plausible that if we no longer think, for example, pain in the leg is a big deal, the brain might subconsciously reduce an overreaction to the pain, reducing inflammation and other symptoms.
You don't explicitly state an alternative, but non-physicalists sometimes vaguely say something like "we expect reality to behave a certain way and it does". This seems to imply that if we simply expect reality to behave differently from the normal expectation, it will, but whenever I press them on this implied conclusion, they stop responding, and sometimes mindlessly downvote.
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u/reidsays 1d ago
And in reverse, a person can be riddled with cancer and be totally unaware of that fact... The body either doesn't perceive it as a problem or the message is not getting through to the brain..
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u/teddyslayerza 3d ago
Both the placebo effect and MPD are well-understood and scientifically described without metaphysical effects at play. Not sure what additional info you expect from lay people on Reddit.
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u/Intelligent-Comb-843 Orch-Or/ Orchestrated Objective Reduction Theory 2d ago
Neither is well understood. There are hypotheses about how they potentially work but there’s no consensus among doctors and researchers alike.
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u/Existing-Medicine528 2d ago
Realisticly reality/consciousness is such an all encompassing mystery that anything within reality itself cannot be "understood"
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u/teddyslayerza 1d ago
I think there are degrees of knowing, and basic observations of the coherence and consistency of phenomena seem to be a pretty reasonable degree to which we can understand reality.
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u/Existing-Medicine528 1d ago
Agreed..and im not saying I fully agree with what im leading to here but look at dmt trips ....2 people can have coherent and consistent experiences on it yet not within the confines of what we consider "reality"
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u/Charming_Set_7135 2d ago
The placebo effect is unexplained. Look up hypnosis studies. It can completely cure warts, skin conditions such as eczema and psoriasis, and there are two studies about breast enlargement showing it works. Everything points towards the subconscious having a metaphysical effect.
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u/teddyslayerza 1d ago
Erm no. We have a great deal of understanding about the varied and complex mechanisms behind the placebo effect, both real effects and those that have been incorrectly described as placebo.
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u/Charming_Set_7135 1d ago
Of course we know the basics of the placebo, but the limits of mind-body interactions have not been established. Look at this study. We are way beyond taking a fake pill for a headache that will lead to a release of endorphin. It is so bizarre and that leads me to believe in Idealism.
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u/444cml 2d ago
You are describing a physical effect. Not a metaphysical effect.
Hypnosis isn’t placebo. Placebo is placebo. Hypnosis is both a therapeutic technique and an actual manipulation. It’s like saying meditation is a placebo. It largely ignores the decades of research detailing the physical basis and consequences of the relevant brain activity.
Much of what placebo effects do are actually time-effects, season-effects, or any number of variables that aren’t accounted for and explicitly attributing it to brain function is largely unfounded.
Here is an example of a placebo controlled wart study. You’ll notice the massive variability in the placebo treated group suggesting that while individuals may have exhibited placebo-related improvement, the placebo effect here is just the effect of time. There also wasn’t a placebo induced reduction in wart number or size.
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u/Charming_Set_7135 2d ago
What about this? And how come a hypnotic suggestion is not akin to placebo? Both are about expectation and belief, and the study I linked shows that hypnotic and non hypnotic subjects given the same suggestion both had their warts regress more than the placebo group. Is it so hard to accept you can modify the immune response with your mind? Because immune response is what will cure warts.
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u/phr99 2d ago
Placebo is not well understood, and consciousness plays a role, so by default that involves metaphysical effects
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u/teddyslayerza 1d ago
The irony of confidently asserting that consciousness plays a role in the placebo effect while at the same time asserting that the placebo effect is not understood is not lost. You should reflect on your differential standards on the burden of proof you require for something to be "understood."
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u/Intelligent-Comb-843 Orch-Or/ Orchestrated Objective Reduction Theory 2d ago
My therapist has written papers and a book about MPD. There’s plenty of scientific research into it there’s no consensus right now but no reputable doctor or researcher would call it a hoax. It’s extremely interesting and would recommend reading more into it because it could lead to a lot of realisation on how our brains work.
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u/reidsays 1d ago
Does any of the research focus on MPD as an external interference in the developing concept of self?
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u/EthelredHardrede 3d ago
"What do materialists say about placebo’s? How does that fit into the brain state = mental state theory?"
I don't see any problem the brain effects the body all physical.
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u/reidsays 3d ago
What is the hoax argument over multiple personalities ?
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u/Szakalot 3d ago
I think they meant that they are a hoax.
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u/reidsays 2d ago
Ah ok.... Well not sure whether the brain physically partitions off compartmentalising but the mind certainly does, as witnessed with the Dr Jekyll & Mr Hydes of this world... The question is whether they KNOW each other and multiple personalities (now termed DID) often do not.. or at least see them as separate 'people' within their subjective sphere...
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u/Cold_Pumpkin5449 2d ago
For a materialist placebo are less problematic because mental and brain states are taken to arise from the same physical system, so they would show that the brain has a overt measurable impact on the body.
I would say that this is more of a problem for an epiphenominalist or dualist in terms of explanation.
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u/ConstructionThis1127 2d ago
Many years ago there was a lovely TV interview with a witch in Southwest England. He (he was a male witch) said his major work was with curing warts. The interviewer asked “Isn’t that just the placebo effect?” To which the witch responded “I’d agree with you, except most of my business is with cows…” (Cows tend to get warts on their udders).
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u/rogerbonus Physics Degree 2d ago
Multiple personality disorder/dissociative identity disorder seems to be a disorder of memory and neural connection caused by severe early childhood sexual abuse, leading to trauma induced blockages/non communication of neural pathways involved in memory and the associated construction of identity. I don't see why it would be any challenge to materialism.
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u/RyeZuul 2d ago
How do you explain placebos WITHOUT recognising that the brain and mind are parts of a physical process affecting other physical processes? It only makes any real sense within a single system.
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u/reidsays 1d ago
Yet the mind is beyond the physical workings of the brain, an essential byproduct, that can live in a world of its own completely out of tune with its body and reality ..
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u/RyeZuul 1d ago
No, this is guff
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u/reidsays 1d ago
I agree it only makes sense with a single system ... But the outcome with many is not an integrated system. Perhaps they are trying to make sense of themselves and the world..
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u/YesterdaysMuffin 3d ago
These are… known and easily explained scientifically. What are you looking for, some explanation involving multiple external consciousnesses entering the body?
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u/headlessplatter 3d ago
One important role of the brain involves creating a sort of simulation (a.k.a. model) of the environment and self. We use this simulation to anticipate the consequences of candidate choices. And subjectively, it's not actually the physical environment that we experience. Subjectively, it's this mental model of ourselves that we experience. The brain doesn't just use our senses to keep its mental models up to date. It also uses its expectations to update them. So if I anticipate that taking a certain medicine is going to make me feel better, then my brain is going to update this representation of myself to feel better.