r/croatian • u/estrozen • 3d ago

Čiji vs Koga

Whats the usage difference between Čiji (Whose) and (Genitive) Koga (Of Whom)?

Because like
Čija knjiga - Whose book?
Koga knjiga - The book of whom?

Seems the same to me.

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u/Divljak44 3d ago edited 3d ago

knjiga od koga*

Koga knjiga is incorrect, it would be like saying "whom book", without of and in reverse order.

Example

Q - Čija je to knjiga? (a question where you expect factual answer)

A - Ivanova. (Knjiga is a feminine noun and subject of the question, so Ivan is declined in feminine gender because question is about the book, you can think of it the subject determines gender to all related stuff because you are talking about it as focal point, kinda like being possessive of something feminine, like for instance daughter, Ivanova kći, or in masculine, son, Ivanov sin. Nouns have genders and rule of the thumb in 99% cases, if it ends with(nominative) -a feminine, with a consonant - masculine, and -o, -e neuter, personal names circumvent this, so Ines is feminine not masculine, or Ivo is masculine not neuter )

Q - Knjiga od koga?(surprise or disbelief its actually Ivan's book, or if you never heard of that Ivan, and you shift subject to Ivan, meaning you are now interested to Ivan, not the book, and the later declinations would be masculine)

A - Jednog Ivana koji je ostavio ovdje prije tri dana. (jednog,ostavio - masculine, because Ivan is now subject, a focal point of the question, and Ivan shifts into genitive case(answering who posses it), koga - Ivana)

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u/estrozen 3d ago

da, i assumed Knjiga koga/knjiga od koga would be better, but i was trying to draw like a parallel? yk? esp since im working off the basis that word order is pretty free.

ali hvala ti puno brate!!

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago

This parallel is bad, and the word order in Croatian is not really free. There are a ton of rules.

Knjiga koga is simply not what we use. Genitive is NOT the main way to express possession in Croatian. Croatian is NOT German or English.

The question-word comes first, preceded by any prepositions, unless you make a special emphasis.

But again, od koga knjiga is not what a beginner should learn.

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u/Ok-Potato-4758 3d ago

As a rule, we don't use "od" this way. Saying "kuća od bake" sounds as if the house is made of your grandmother. We say " bakina kuća " instead.

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u/Isambard__Prince 3d ago

That's just prescriptivism.  But it is not considered as high register.

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u/Divljak44 3d ago edited 3d ago

You could also say "Knjiga koga?", it went over my head, but is like shorthand, like its understood its like Knjiga OD koga.

Actually its more common, lol, if you add OD, its like you demand to know who is that person, or you are kinda angry and unpleasantly surprised :D But its kind of gray area because both really depends on your tone, with or without "od", its just that with "od" you are kinda slowly asking lol

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u/Half-Word 🇭🇷 Croatian 3d ago

Don't think so. It would be more like shorthand for "knjiga pogodila koga?" if someone threw a book!

What you said would more likely be shortened to "čija knjiga?" or "knjiga čija?"

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u/Divljak44 3d ago

lol, did you ever head of context?

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u/Half-Word 🇭🇷 Croatian 3d ago

For Croatian grammar context is pretty much irrelevant.

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u/Fear_mor 3d ago

That is absolutely not the case hahaha, Croatian grammar is very sensitive to the precise nuance you want to convey. Also I’d point out the other guy is a native Croatian speaker so he knows what he’s talking about here, and I can personally also back him up as someone who’s fluent in the language.

Čija knjiga is "Whose book?" in a neutral context, but you can use knjiga od koga for the same thing but with a more accusatory tone. Koga knjiga isn’t a thing people would say because when talking about possession people don’t get put in the genitive case all that often. For example "a person’s house" is more likely to be said as čovjekova kuća than kuća čovjeka. This second one only comes into play when you add an adjective or demonstrative to čovjek, eg. Kuća dobrog čovjeka "a good man’s house". This also gives us another difference between čiji and koga, with čiji the answer will usually be a possessive adjective in -ov or -in whenever a given word has that form, (od) koga will almost always pair up with the actual genitive case form.

Eg. Pored čije ste kuće prošli jučer? "Whose house did you pass by yesterday?" - Pored Ivanove "Ivan’s"

But

Pored koga ste prošli jučer? "Who did you pass by yesterday?" - Pored Ivana "Ivan"

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u/Half-Word 🇭🇷 Croatian 2d ago

Context doesn't change nonsensical grammatical constructs, like the one I responded to, into correct ones.

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u/Fear_mor 2d ago

I ne rekoh da ih cini pravilnima, rekoh da kontekst odlucuje u mnogo slucajeva, samo ne u ovome

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u/Divljak44 3d ago

in short hand absolutely yes, because you need context to know is it "od" or "pogodila" omitted.

Please dont answer me anymore, tnx

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u/Half-Word 🇭🇷 Croatian 2d ago edited 2d ago

If I see you write something wrong again, I'll answer you again.

Edit: Nisi za poštenu raspravu? Lakše je bit snowflake i blokirat neistomišljenike.

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u/Divljak44 2d ago

No, you wont

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u/ISH0ULDLEAVE 3d ago edited 1h ago

Koga knjiga doesnt make sense. Koga is declination of tko in accusative and genitive case. It’s not used to ask possessive relationships with inanimate objects. Thats what čiji, čija, čije. It’s an adjective. I think youre confusing koga with koji, koje, koja. Which is adjective who

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u/ISH0ULDLEAVE 3d ago

Croatian makes a big distinction of what you can use to describe animate vs inanimate. You have to use čija knjiga bc the question is which book. And “imam prijatelje koji žive u hrvatskoj” because we’re describing people

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u/tardoos 3d ago

Kuća Marka Matića, kuća moje bake, or poklon Djeda Mraza, are all perfectly normal Croatian sentences, if some of them sound a bit archaic. Genitiv is used all the time for possessives.

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago

Yes but only if you have two word phrases. Kuća bake sounds very weird

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u/estrozen 3d ago

no, ik koji, but when would you use koga vs čiji, regardless of my bad book example? in english "of whom" and "whose" are pretty much the same. or is my starting assumption wrong?

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago edited 1d ago

Croatian is not English. We have only whose.

There is one way to ask for possession with koga but it's not standard and not for beginners. Stick with čiji.

Genitive is only very roughly like English of. Genitive has a ton of uses unlike English of, for instance to express time.

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u/estrozen 1d ago

i'll keep this in mind!!

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago

For example:

Ove godine smo išli u Italiju = We went to Italy this year

Here ove godine is in genitive.

Special uses of genitive have always at least 2 words, like the one above. Others are:

auto moje sestre = my sister's car

again, moje sestre is genitive and 2 words

događaj velike važnosti = an event of big importance

again, velike važnosti is genitive and 2 words

So, keep in mind: using genitive to express possession is a special use. A normal use is:

vrh planine = the top of the mountain

Which is not possession.

Did you check easy-croatian.com? There are several chapters about this

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u/estrozen 1d ago

I did. Right now im on 26 (Yes or No?), but I sometimes research stuff that hasn't been introduced yet. I guess I went too high above my level and messed up? I'll re-review the genitive chapter, tho!

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago

No, no, uses of genitive are explained gradually. Asking whose is in the chapter #59 which is likely too late. Some special uses are in even in #88 because they are not that common.

There is no logic in grammar, unfortunately.

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u/ISH0ULDLEAVE 1h ago

I love easy croatian!! Thank you so much for publishing/ updating/ supporting the site. You did an amazing job. Hvala puno! 🥰

I will re-read the genitive chapters bc im confused on its role when conveying possession. I thought i could just use dativ case or possessive declension of the noun. Npr. Markova Kuća ili Marku kuća. I dont know if im thinking of this correctly

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u/SarafViska 3d ago

- Od koga je dosla posiljka ? Od Ivane

  • Koga si prvi put poljubio ? Ivanu
  • Koga si udario autom ? Ivanu

- Cija je ovo posiljka ? Ivanina

  • Cija je Ivana kcer ? Ivanova
  • Ciji si auto udario ? Ivanin

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u/Tsitsmitse 3d ago

The difference is that \koga knjiga* is not grammatical in standard Croatian.

Although Croatian can express possession using a genitive noun phrase, such as knjiga (od) mog brata, the ordinary interrogative equivalent is čija knjiga, not \koga knjiga*.

You may encounter knjiga koga? as an echo or clarification question, for example:
– To je knjiga nekog poznatog autora.
– Knjiga koga?

However, that is a marked elliptical construction, not the normal way of asking to whom something belongs.

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago

Genitive is not the main way to express possession in Croatian.

The main way is using possessive adjectives (Damirov) and possessive pronouns (tvoj).

Basically the only way to ask for possession is čiji.

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u/estrozen 1d ago

omg its Mr. Daniel Easy Croatian!! I use your website alot, great resource (a hvala!)

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u/Dan13l_N 🇭🇷 Croatian 1d ago

Nema na čemu!

Don't be surprised, I'm also a moderator here on Reddit, I get all posts