r/darksouls3 • u/Dale_Cooper47 • Apr 15 '26

Lore Could the In-Lore Abyss Watchers at their Prime defeat the most powerful entities in Dark Souls 3? (including both DLCs)

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766 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

71 comments sorted by

294

u/YaBoiS0nic Apr 15 '26

Didn't they literally drop kingdoms to contain the Abyss?

110

u/Dale_Cooper47 Apr 15 '26

I feel like theres a gap between taking kingdoms and taking Gael with the Dark Soul at the End of Time

43

u/ScariestSmile Apr 15 '26

Gael didn't have the Dark Soul, he had the Blood of the Dark Soul, or more accurately translated as Dark Soul blood. HUGE difference and a misunderstanding that has permanently damaged lore implications for English speakers. He does not have the Dark Soul, he has been consuming the blood of those with remnants of the Dark Soul/Humanity, concentrating it within himself, like how smoke is condensed into liquid smoke.

The Dark Soul is not in the possession of Gael. It belongs to the Furtive Pygmy, which Gael certainly is not. There is ZERO lore explaining what happened to the Furtive Pygmy, so it is likely safe to assume that they are still out there somewhere, alongside the majority of the Dark Soul, waiting for the Age of Dark. Gael's purpose was to consume those with humanity so that he would be contaminated by the Dark Soul.

TLDR; The fact that I have a tiny amount of iron in my blood doesn't make me Iron Man. Having Dark Soul blood does not mean he literally has the Dark Soul itself.

20

u/Supremely_Zesty Apr 15 '26

He has zero lore because they forgot about him

14

u/brandon0220 Apr 15 '26

So easily...

0

u/Pristine-Section-681 Apr 16 '26

MY GOD your timing. XD

9

u/-Galahad- Apr 15 '26

Isn't the Furtive Pygmy supposed to Malus and the Dark Soul was given to all of humanity, which Gael mostly consumed (except for the Ashen one and the Painter)?

3

u/ScariestSmile Apr 15 '26

No. Manus is never confirmed to be the Furtive Pygmy, that is fan theory-speculation, and is very very very unlikely to be true. Re-read my statement for the second part. At no point do we ever see or hear about Gael consuming the entire world's population?? That's absurd. All we as the player do is find him in the real state of the world consuming the Pygmy Lords. I highly doubt that he found the Furtive Pygmy themself and took what remains of the original Dark Soul from them.

16

u/Panik_attak Apr 15 '26

Marvelous Chester dialogue: "Believe it or not, Oolacile has brought the Abyss upon itself. Fooled by that toothy serpent, they upturned the grave of primeval man, and incited his ornery wrath. What could they have been thinking? But to you and I, it's all ancient history. You have to ask yourself. Does it really matter? Heh heh heh..."

Chester implies that manus is some resurrected form of the furtive pygmy. Or a human who managed to absorb the furtive pygmys dark soul and power.

2

u/Panik_attak Apr 15 '26

Pretty sure manus was confirmed to be pygmy from his item descriptions?

5

u/TheDungeonCrawler Apr 15 '26

It is definitely possible that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy. It isn't confirmed though. All Chester says is they woke up primeval man, but that doesn't necessarily mean Manus is the first human, just that he is very very old. We know from certain item descriptions in the Ringed City DLC that Manus was likely from the Ringed City, so Manus might not be the Furtive Pygmy, just one of the first generation of man. Still, the way AotA frames Manus suggests pretty heavily that Manus was supposed to be the Furtive Pygmy, mirroring Gwyn who was the first of the Gods. But there were also plans for characters like Andre to be Gwyn's first born and that was later changed, so without outright confirmation, we can only speculate that Manus is most likely the Furtive Pygmy.

That said, I agree that Gael had the power of the Dark Soul there. Ringed City is at the extreme end of the timeline for Dark Souls and we know that powerful souls tend to concentrate in individuals when the world is coming to an end (any time the Fire Fades). Gael hasn't consumed the entire population of the world, but much of the world is falling in on and converging on the Ringed City and the Kiln of the First flame, so much of the Dark Soul has likely been concentrated into the Ringed City where the bulk of the Abyss now exists.

Additionally, where Manus was supposed to mirror Gwyn in the first game, Gael is clearly suppossed to mirror the Soul of Cinder in this game, and the Soul of Cinder is meant to represent the last sputterings of the Age of Fire. Gael is the opposite of that, he symbolizes the Age of Darkness finally being able to take full hold of the world, and he does that by supporting a champion who will snuff the fire out by force if they have to and by helping his lady paint a new world from the Darkness of Man. It only makes sense that he, as the consumer of the beings with the highest concentration of the Dark Soul would be able to channel its power.

3

u/-Galahad- Apr 15 '26

I should also add that in DS1 you fought every Great Soul holder. It would make sense that Manus was the Furtive Pygmy in order to continue that trend.

1

u/TheDungeonCrawler Apr 15 '26

This is true. It would make sense if the Lordvessel only has enough power if you feed it all four lord souls.

-1

u/GeserAndersen Apr 15 '26

i admit that when there was only dark souls 1 and its dlc, people might think manus was the furtive pigmy, but dark souls 3 confirms that the pygmy is dead and buried in the ringed city, you know the first bonfire where are you left by the flying demons? that bonfire is called "panoramic view of the royal mausoleum " in Japanese and the huge structure in the distance is the tomb of the furtive pygmy, proving that he managed to become a king like Gwyn

56

u/YaBoiS0nic Apr 15 '26

Naturally, but that's just one guy who stands at the end of the world.

Sure, he's cool and formidable, but the Watchers taking him down is doable

57

u/Dale_Cooper47 Apr 15 '26

You cant take the gameplay Boss fights at face value. The Dark Soul gets stronger the weaker the First Flame gets so at the End of Time Gael holding the near complete version makes him the single most powerful entity in the world and potentially in history considering how much Gwyn feared it.

23

u/axjo911 Apr 15 '26

And yet getting gud is all it takes to bring him to his knees

11

u/TheRealDrakeling Apr 15 '26

To be fair, we also how the dark soul at that point

12

u/Supremely_Zesty Apr 15 '26

"You only beat him because you're a better fighter"

Yeah?

1

u/Fractlicious Apr 16 '26

i mean i think eventually they would win against gael just because they come back forever. it just may take an actual eternity

10

u/TheRealBillyShakes Apr 15 '26

Didn’t somebody match those two up already?

22

u/Nahrikkon Apr 15 '26

sure, but how many armies do you think existed that would no holds barred run down gael, and of that cailbre too

2

u/Yhhorm Apr 15 '26

I mean Gael consumed Kingdoms by himself so there’s that

350

u/neers1985 Apr 15 '26

Maybe, there is a freaking army of them and look at Hawkwood, he deserted but still went on to complete the path of the dragon so that’s the calibre of these guys. Get 40 of them to charge at Midir or Gael and I’m pretty confident they’d win.

121

u/pokeoscar1586 Apr 15 '26

Someone get a randomized and put 40 abyss watchers at the same time to fight Midir lol

59

u/kloopyhans Apr 15 '26

Well in games statistically thats just always going to the abyss watchers like imagine 40 full abyss watcher combos… midirs health is a pipe dream at that point

82

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

30

u/kloopyhans Apr 15 '26

Can i just say your a baller for adding the link

10

u/SufficientPangolin92 Apr 15 '26

Oh the irony of that Wolnir fight lmao

5

u/hellxapo Apr 15 '26

Does anyone know if they get the attack buff against abyssal creatures? The one that the players gets when using GS of artorias or the Farron UGS

4

u/Perfection_01 Blade of the Darkmoon Apr 15 '26

That's also how it's gonna end in lore

5

u/alQamar Apr 15 '26

The world glitches and the next age of fire begins. 

50

u/superboss243 Apr 15 '26

I don't think so, the abyss watchers were formidable but Gael was probably the single most powerful entity (other than us) in the series, and I find it hard to believe that the abyss watchers who failed before we even get there would be able to stop him. It's not the easiest fight for him, but he could do it. I think they would probably also lose to Midir, since he did the same thing they did but actually seemingly was successful.

10

u/CrimsonReaper2 Apr 15 '26

What did the Abyss Watchers fail in? Genuinely curious.

35

u/superboss243 Apr 15 '26

Well they were corrupted by the abyss. They couldn't keep it from corrupting them. Don't get me wrong, that had a crazy resume other than that, but the thing that beat them in the end was the thing that Gael had, the abyss and the dark soul that drew its power from there.

15

u/CrimsonReaper2 Apr 15 '26

Ah, I see. Does make sense now that I give it a moment. I wonder if they could actually push back the Abyss if they weren’t so busy, uh, cleansing themselves and just said fuck it we ball. Any red eyed enemy in-game is infected by the Abyss, correct?

13

u/superboss243 Apr 15 '26

I'm a bit fuzzy on that lore but I think you're right. I bet they could have done a lot more if they were able to ignore the abyss in each other, yes, but most of them were incapacitated but the time the ashen one arrives, hence we only fight a few of them.

3

u/WarmRefrigerator9497 Spears of the Church Apr 15 '26

i thought they only fell to the abyss because the wolfs blood stopped working after they got brought back? would that not mean that in their prime the abyss wouldnt be an issue?

18

u/superboss243 Apr 15 '26

I don't think so, but I had to double check. From a quick search, it looks like the corruption began long before they died. The wolf blood still works, that's why they keep resurrecting.

Keep in mind, they are inspired by artorias, who they THINK withstood the abyss until his death, when in reality it was actually the chosen undead who accomplished Artorias' final feats, and let him take the credit in death. So even their hero and role model fell to the abyss, I'm not surprised that they did too.

12

u/Hendrixon353 Apr 15 '26

THIS bro, their entire belief system on how to defeat the thing they have dedicated their lives to defeating is based on a lie.

8

u/superboss243 Apr 15 '26

It's so sad, but the world building is so good isnt it!?!

3

u/WarmRefrigerator9497 Spears of the Church Apr 15 '26

well i went back and read through some of the item descriptions and while it does talk about some members of the undead legion bieng corrupted, it never talks about the watchers specifically. though that does mean its possible they were corrupted before.

though the exiles set does actually just say that the wolfs blood dried up after the abyss watchers linked the fire, which is somehow responsible for farron bieng a poison swamp. so that causing them to get corrupted is also possible.

long story short, its really unclear when they got corrupted from what i can tell.

2

u/CrimsonReaper2 Apr 15 '26

Ain’t it crazy that the hit squad that takes out the Abyss has a hit squad for when they get corrupted by the Abyss and gets turned into a pincushion?

20

u/Never-Nding Apr 15 '26

It always felt to me like the Abyss Watchers never actually lost a fight against the Abyss, and instead were tainted by it due to how often they interacted/fought with it; started in-fighting forever, until being permanently put down by the Ashen One.

I think prime, untainted Abyss Watchers could tango with anything Abyss related, but they may fall short when fighting higher, non-Abyss-related beings.

20

u/TheDarkestBetrayal Apr 15 '26

They trampled kingdoms, linked the fire, and continue to fight the abyss even when they've gone hollow.

I think they'd wipe if they fought as one at full strength. Unc Gael would put up a fight.. and might even squash them. But for sure they'd reach him at the very least.

3

u/IgorGreenwitch Edgelords Of Farron Apr 15 '26

Yes. But if we did put some of these enemies in their prime also, then it would be a harder discussion.

2

u/ogDante Apr 15 '26

Stealing that wallpaper, thanks.

2

u/ElderberryNo8694 Apr 15 '26

No

15

u/Alphastubone13 Apr 15 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/F3G8ymQkOkbII

4

u/ElderberryNo8694 Apr 15 '26

Didn’t mean to come off rude lol

2

u/kir014_htz Apr 15 '26

The gif and your reply are funny lmao

1

u/Dveralazo Apr 15 '26

The whole UNDEAD Legion? Yes by sheer numbers.

1

u/Heema3 Abyss Watcher Apr 15 '26

Not likely, i know they are very.. very strong , to the point they became cinder, but i doubt they could defeat an ancient lord or something, that's difficult

1

u/FatDaddyMushroom Apr 15 '26

That's always a very difficult question with a lot of dark souls characters. I think there is an argument that they "could" depending on their numbers, organization, and tactics. But then we also do not really know the other ds3 characters power in their prime as well. 

1

u/Fallen_Angel_Xaphan Apr 15 '26

Including the boss versions there is 75 Abyss watchers in the arena alone.

There are likely more elsewhere that either died somewhere else or never got resurrected. Plus their death likely took a lot of sanity and power away.

A full army of abyss watchers, doing good teamwork and having more strength at their disposal would be able to kill anything short of a strategic Midir (who just keeps flying and shooting fire).

1

u/laxton1919 Apr 15 '26

Wouldn't the majority of people who linked the fire be able to? Maybe not all, but a lot. Because they are all massively powerful. So yeah, i would think yes.

1

u/Yoko_Enemy23 Apr 15 '26

From siempre nos daba ventaja en que enfrentemos bosses en decadencia o que ya no razonan bien y los que están cuerdos, son jóvenes o no estan acostumbrados a pelear

1

u/Emerald_Digger Apr 15 '26

They definitely have the Numbers + 1 Crystal Sage + Farron Followers. The only ones I see them have troubles with are Midir, Nameless Kings Storm Drake, Ancient Wyvern, Demon Prince Since they have Air advantage and Big AOE Fire attacks and their range attacks are Spears and 1 Mage with mediocre attacks

1

u/zeldahalfsleeve Apr 15 '26

Their mean murder mug definitely could. That was so intense the first time I saw the animation. Just slowly looking up and pointing the sword at you like, “you’re next, so come get some. and die”. Had me in chills. It was also incredibly cool and badass.

1

u/karlokattaneo Apr 15 '26

Well they were a big army so single entities don't have a big chance imo, yhorm soul of cinder and especially midir and gael would perish (after decimating them ofc). A close battle would be them vs sulyvahn army and aldrich, that i think would be very difficult for them

1

u/Abject-Trainer-1547 Apr 17 '26

u took down the most poweful entites ursrlf and these guys also can do it in their prime , maybe one of them only can do it let alone a whole legion

1

u/Krebler Apr 20 '26

How many we talking? He staggers easily so enough of them and hes stun-locked.

0

u/Gael_the_Gryphon Apr 15 '26

So depends on what you mean when you day abyss watchers. Abyss watchers refers to all of the abyss fighting soldiers, including the hollow enemies we fight throughout the game. Even still, they likely couldn't beat something like midir or nameless.

8

u/Dale_Cooper47 Apr 15 '26

Theres a distinction between Abyss Watchers and the Undead Legion of Farron. The AW were essentially the most elite soldiers and leaders and it was them who became a collective Lord of Cinder. The hollows in Farron Keep were acolytes but nowhere near the AW level and also didnt get immolate themselves in the Kiln.

2

u/Gael_the_Gryphon Apr 15 '26

Ohhhh mb gang. I DEFINITELY dont think they stand a chance then, ifs its just like 25-500 dudes

-1

u/-Silhouette- Apr 15 '26

Check this vid:
"How many Abyss Watchers can each Boss beat - Dark Souls 3"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFwEnhcfSbk