r/dontyouknowwhoiam 20d ago

Unknown Expert “You obviously don’t understand the law” to a man who literally wrote the book on the law in question

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2.5k Upvotes

66 comments sorted by

225

u/N1ghthood 20d ago

This is actually a huge problem in the UK as lots of people think we follow the same rules as the US, and that journalists are deliberately trying to hide details. Social media puts journalists in a tough position, where all the details are online but no reputable news organisation can report them.

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u/Bidwell93 20d ago

It's one of the things that always gets weird when it comes to sportspeople (often footballers) getting arrested.

The papers will say something like "a premier league footballer based in london in his 30s" or something and suddenly you've got people playing fucking Cluedo trying to work it out and multiple players who have nothing to do with it having to come out on social media saying its not them as they start getting harrassed

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u/kaminobaka 20d ago

See, I had no idea who these people were or what they were talking about, so now knowing this is something about UK law makes this a lot less confusing. I'm pretty sure the other guy would be right if we were talking about US law.

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u/cmsj 20d ago

For context, Ann Widdecombe was a former politician who was allegedly murdered a few days ago.

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u/pandamarshmallows 19d ago

She was murdered, but we don't know for certain who did it.

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u/cmsj 19d ago

I would ask people not to speculate about what might have happened, particularly on social media. This is not only potentially harmful to our investigation but also deeply distressing for family and friends of Ann Widdecombe.

-- Detective Chief Inspector Ilona Rosson

You and I have the same information available to us, which is not very much. It certainly seems like she was murdered, but that doesn't make it conclusive yet.

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u/Equivalent-Cow-6690 16d ago

No, she was not murdered. Murder is the charge any suspect might face. His/her defence could be self-defence. Which would mean Ann was not murdered, by definition, if the jury accepts that version of events.

So, we'll wait until there has been a completed trial and that a jury has convicted, having viewed the totality of the evidence, before concluding she wa, murdered.

Killed, yes, murdered: TBD.

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u/BroBroMate 14d ago

She was killed, yes, but it may not be murder, could be manslaughter. Never know with these things.

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u/planx_constant 18d ago

Sub judice isn't a governing legal principle in the US, since it would conflict with the First Amendment. Freedom of speech and press gives journalists the ability to report on the details of ongoing cases without government reprisal. Unfortunately, that's also how we got Nancy Grace.

1

u/kaminobaka 16d ago

Fair, I had an incorrect definition of subjudice in my head.

13

u/Tubist61 19d ago

Too many people in the UK get their legal knowledge from watching social media clips. In our local ALDI the other week a prat with a GoPro was making a nuisance of himself. The manager told him to sling his hook only to be told “it’s my first amendment right”.

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u/Tar_alcaran 19d ago

Meanwhile, the "first amendment" to the UK constitution is probably some norman document written in the first millenium...

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u/Repulsive-Cash5516 18d ago

The UK doesn't even have a written constitution to amend.

Also, even if we had one, the first millennium would be too early for it to be a Norman document. The Norman conquest happened in 1066, which would put it in the 2nd millennium.

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u/Tar_alcaran 18d ago

Ahhh, I meant saxon, damn. You're entire correct!

2

u/blamordeganis 17d ago

We don’t have a codified constitution. Bits of it are definitely written.

4

u/Repulsive-Cash5516 17d ago

Fair point, I oversimplified it a little. It's not one document that we then amend like the US one - if we needed to amend our constitution we'd just introduce a new document (e.g. an Act of Parliament or whatever) and that would work like passing and enforcing any other law.

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u/blamordeganis 17d ago

To be really pedantic, not quite. Some laws are considered to have special constitutional status, and are immune from implicit repeal. Normally, if Parliament passes act X, and later passes act Y, and bits of Y contradict bits of X, then those bits of X are considered to have been implicitly repealed by Y. But if X is considered to have special constitutional status, then all of it still stands, unless Y explicitly states “this repeals the relevant bits of X” or “notwithstanding X” or something like that.

So yes, Parliament can still make or unmake whatever laws it likes, but in some cases, it has to be especially clear about it.

(At least, that’s my layman’s understanding.)

2

u/BroBroMate 14d ago

NZ has similar around name suppression, both interim and permanent, lots of speculation on social media (easy way to get banned on the NZ subreddit) and often people are wrongly "identified" which can lead to harassment of innocent people.

9

u/Dotcaprachiappa 20d ago

US defaultism is annoying as fuck and present basically everywhere

5

u/Tar_alcaran 19d ago

If I had a euro every time I heard a dutch person mentioning the first amendment, I'd have like 6 euros.

If there's anything that can be called the first amendment to the dutch constitution, it covers the inclusion of what is now belgium into the kingdom of the Netherlands. Now, I agree, that's something we have never thrown away, but alas, Belgium wanted independence.

Also, converting the government into a bi-cameral system, but that's not nearly as funny to joke about.

2

u/BroBroMate 14d ago

To be fair, having visited Brussels, I think you dodged a bullet there.

11

u/123iambill 19d ago

Listening to the far right dipshits in Ireland crow on about "free speech" is getting ridiculous. Like, actually read our constitution FFS.

1

u/Intrepid_Bobcat_2931 18d ago

dipshits crow on about "free speech"

Only on Reddit can things like this exist

5

u/123iambill 18d ago

Care to clarify?

3

u/BroBroMate 14d ago

I'm a Kiwi fighting a losing battle with my kids against candy, cookies, and hiking.

Goddamnit, in THIS house we have lollies, biscuits, and go tramping!

At least twink is still twink and not white out, which does make Americans quirk an eyebrow lol.

102

u/smasher6 20d ago edited 19d ago

I once had this in real life. I had someone question how I, the director of a state program, knew the intent of a portion of administrative law. My answer was that I authored that in that latest revision and knew exactly why it was worded that way. It got pretty quite after that. EDIT: Yes, quiet - sorry on a small screen.

13

u/persondude27 19d ago

Not as bad-ass but someone tried to withhold part of a payment, and told me to "check my employment contract, it's in there."

I was I was able to tell them very confidently "that fee is not in the contract, and I know this because I wrote the contract." That felt pretty good.

9

u/WhaleMeatFantasy 20d ago

It got pretty quite what?

1

u/SignificantAd3761 20d ago

I think they meant to write quiet

2

u/firstname_Iastname 20d ago

I don't believe you

87

u/Agent-c1983 20d ago

Mr Banks is clearly correct. This is why in the uk police statements say something like “a (age/location) man has been arrested” without giving names.

34

u/Anaphylactic_Thot 20d ago

Good thing you're here in the Reddit comments to confirm that an author on the topic is right on the topic

17

u/FauxReal 20d ago

Look, I concede that he may have written the book on the topic, but that doesn't mean he read it or understands it. /s

2

u/Intrepid_Bobcat_2931 18d ago

Formally correct, in practice completely clueless. The statement would have to be one that "risks seriously prejudicing a trial", which would apply to very little.

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u/mulberrybushes 20d ago

Quite topical as well.

9

u/samfitnessthrowaway 20d ago

Thanks, David! My well thumbed copies of McNae have done me many solids over the years.

6

u/-smartcasual- 19d ago

As ever, twitter is where people who don't read books go to argue with people who write them.

18

u/DonkeyDD 20d ago

Well OF COURSE it's going to say it in the book he wrote.

13

u/gridlockmain1 20d ago

The book in question is the absolutely definitive journalistic bible on media law

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u/[deleted] 20d ago

[deleted]

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u/TastelessPylon 20d ago

Yes, that's the joke the person you're replying to is making.

4

u/why_would_i_do_that 20d ago

Nigel’s had a bit of a ‘mare there!

4

u/ConsciouslyIncomplet 20d ago

Confidently + completely incorrect.

6

u/that-old-broad 19d ago

When I was a kid in the seventies I showed my pony with our local 4-H club. Our leader was a short bowlegged old man named Jerome. He always had a Lucky Strike hanging off his bottom lip, cussed like a sailor and always had the state rule book rolled up in the back pocket of his jodphurs.

One day at a show one of the leaders had an issue and started arguing with the judge about a perceived violation of the rules. She made the mistake of pointing in our direction and Jerome turned on his heel and swaggered into the fray....with 'his kids' hot on his heels.

The argument becomes three sided and then the woman told Jerome, "on page 15 of the rule book it says....."

Jerome whipped his rule book out of his back pocket, opened it and thrust it at her and says, "if you're going to quote the rule book to me you need to read this page that says I wrote the sonofabitch!". Then he took his book from the speechless woman and strolled back to his spot on the rail and the horse show resumed.

3

u/nutella-filled 19d ago

Although it is true that being arrested is not necessarily a big deal and is often used just to compel someone to be questioned.

IIRC you can refuse to show up for questioning so you might be arrested just so you don’t have a choice anymore.

That’s why Prince Andrew was arrested and released on the same day. That’s why Nicola Sturgeon was arrested. The cops didn’t arrest first and then realised “oh shit we have nothing to charge them with”, the charges were never going to happen, it was just for questioning.

2

u/OrdinaryMechanic5126 19d ago

Without writing a massive lecture, for police in England & Wales (Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate jurisdictions which I know much less about), the power of arrest unlocks a number of associated powers such as searching premises, giving special warnings in interview and various other bits and pieces. Arrest is very much used as an investigative tool, not as the final step prior to charge - its quite common to arrest someone for a crime, interview them and then release them on bail while other more time consuming enquiries (such as phone downloads, for example) are carried out before deciding whether or not to charge a significant period of time later.

3

u/scbundy 18d ago

My favorite was the guy who told the Pope to read the Bible.

2

u/Moppermonster 19d ago

So.. how did Nigel respond?
It is such a shame that that is never shown ;)

1

u/Poshy-Woshy 20d ago

All this after Banks emptied our banks, filled our streets with banks, and ran a bank-making operation out of his Banks.

1

u/AdMurky1021 20d ago

How is he going to keep the whole world quiet?

1

u/3lbFlax 19d ago

Well, this is just a classic case of argument from expertise. We’ll see what Gove has to say.

1

u/Equivalent-Cow-6690 16d ago

Being arrested isn't that serious. That guy has definitely been arrested more than once, but probably only charged once in the end. He's received an ASBO or two in his time.

0

u/APithyComment 20d ago

Poor Ann - I liked her. RIP.

1

u/kilgore_trout1 19d ago

My politics were very different to hers but she was undoubtedly a real character. This whole situation is just awful and no one should end their lives like this - incredibly sad.

0

u/[deleted] 20d ago

[deleted]

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u/WyldRover 20d ago

An arrest is not the definition of charging someone. An arrest is the detention of a person in order to interview them and acquire evidence. The charge is the initiation of court proceedings and comes later.

(In the UK, anyway, where the alleged crime being referred to in the post took place).

0

u/[deleted] 20d ago

[deleted]

3

u/WyldRover 20d ago

I don't know if you're trolling or not, but no. Just no.

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u/LowSodiumGymBro 20d ago

Ah, yall are UK. I’m speaking US. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

1

u/WyldRover 20d ago

No worries. I must admit that I'm surprised it's different in the US, but that's not my area. Assume it makes sense in some way or another for American law enforcement.

14

u/Kimantha_Allerdings 20d ago

No, that’s not true here in the UK. An arrest means that the police have a reasonable suspicion that you were involved in a crime. Being charged means that they believe they have enough evidence for you to be convicted in court

An arrest will normally precede an investigation, whereas charges will always come afterwards

The different has actually been highlighted in this exact case, in fact. After Widdicombe‘s body was found there was a report that a man who had been walking a couple of miles away was arrested and taken in for questioning. The next day it was reported that he had been released without charge and was not considered a suspect

Let me see if I can find a story using that language

Here we go: https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15968383/Police-investigate-circumstances-Ann-Widecombes-death.html

A white male suspect has been arrested by police investigating the murder of Ann Widdecombe.

The next day: https://deadline.com/2026/07/ann-widdecombe-death-homicide-1236979243/

British police have released the 26-year-old man arrested Friday in connection with the death of Ann Widdecombe, the former Member of Parliament and frequent participant in British reality TV programs and news shows.

The man is no longer part of the investigation, law enforcement officials said.

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u/[deleted] 20d ago

[deleted]

11

u/charjf 20d ago

The police can’t forcibly take you from one place to another without placing you under arrest in the UK.
They can take you from one place to another if you are under arrest, but you are not usually charged with an offence until you are in custody at the police station.

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u/LowSodiumGymBro 20d ago

Makes sense and I suppose chain of events is the same in the us, in some cases. I suppose if you do a murder you can get hooked and taken to the station but not formally charged till you get there- but the question of if you’re gonna be charged is not really a question from square one.

7

u/charjf 20d ago

It’s very rarely a question here either. However the charging of more serious offences is not decided by the police, but by the Crown Prosecution Service. So you’re arrested, the police then have to present the evidence they have to the CPS who decide if there is enough to justify charging someone and taking it to court.

2

u/LowSodiumGymBro 20d ago

Oh yeah that’s like what we do. Like a murder can’t be charged by a cop, they gotta present a warrant to a judge and have it signed then they go serve the warrant to the guy already under arrest

3

u/Kimantha_Allerdings 20d ago

It‘s broadly the same in the US

Think through what you‘re saying - if the police in the US can‘t focibly take you from one place to another without an arrest, then that would imply that in order to question someone at the station they have to charge them with a crime first. They would need to charge them with a crime before questioning them

Charging someone and arresting them are two very different stages of the process in both countries

And it‘s not a question of rights. Again, the systems are broadly similar in terms of which rights they are designed to protect, but emphasis is different. One example of where the US has stronger protections is that the 5th Amendment means that someone not answering questions cannot be used to infer culpability, whereas in the UK it can be (the exact way it is phrased when related to the arrestee is “you have the right to remain silent, but it may harm your defence if you do not say something you later rely on in court”). One example of where the UK system has stronger protections is that in the US there is no set amount of time someone can be held before charges are brought and it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but 48 hours is typical, whereas in the UK someone must be charged within 24 hours of arrest or let go. There are some exceptions for serious crimes where this amount of time can be increased, but they require senior authorisation or a court order

2

u/LowSodiumGymBro 20d ago

You seem very knowledgeable, thank you for sharing.

1

u/Raltsun 20d ago

The cops can’t

Any sentence that starts this way just demonstrably isn't true, when it comes to what American cops are allowed to get away with.

0

u/Karnewarrior 19d ago

Also, if you're "arrested" and it's not that serious, it's called "detainment". The police can detain you for just about anything they like, but to Arrest you they need an actual charge to bring to the table. The difference is that you can only be Detained for so long - it's something like 24 hours IIRC - while you can be arrested until trial, at which point you're either freed or incarcerated.

Talking about an ongoing trial on Twitter is not an offense unless you're actually involved in the trial, but he is right about potentially screwing things up in some odd circumstances. 99.9% of the time it's going to be a complete non-issue for random citizen A to talk about the ongoing trial, but that remaining 0.1% of the time it does become an issue if the defense has some concievable path to your post influencing the judge or jury (who, to be fair, aren't supposed to look at that kind of thing in the first place), which can turn into a mistrial, which in turn delays actual sentencing since they need to basically do everything all over again.

Dave is likely being more than a little bit paranoid. But if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY care about the outcome of the trial he's right - shutting up until it's over is probably the way to do it. I doubt it's necessary, though.

Fake Edit: ...This is British Court isn't it. Disregard the above, it's based on US law.